Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, twich said:

Not that I have read any Gundam books, but in my mind, Minofsky(sp?) particles where explained away in the same nebulous way that Robotech explained Protoculture fueling their Very-tech’s.   All the gundam shows that I have seen use the particle field as a way to obscure sensors and to show where mobile suits have been and done battle. This explanation is rather interesting.  Thank you for showing us this neat little nugget.

Like a lot of things in mecha anime, it's one of those "it's all in the manual" sort of situations with the information.

The "heavy quantum" in Macross that is so critical to the operation of thermonuclear reactors and fold technology is very much inspired by the exotic Minovsky particles that make much of the advanced technology in Gundam's Universal Century era go.  Minovsky particles are exotic charged particles that are a product of fusing deuterium and helium-3.  The positively and negatively charged Minovsky particles naturally align themselves into a sort of lattice based on opposing charges.  Almost all of their tricks depend on the Minovsky particles being charged particles and interacting with electromagnetic fields/waves.  In extreme densities, they can block heat and neutron radiation from a fusion reaction, letting them be used as a self-sustaining form of shielding in fusion reactors.  In lower but still high densities they can jam radio and radar in a manner similar to chaff (but longer lasting) by absorbing radio waves.  They can also be used in certain kinds of sensors, and fusing them using magnetic pressure releases an enormous amount of energy that is focused to produce destructive high energy particle beams.  A similar effect can allow ships to float on a cushion of high density Minovsky particles via magnetic levitation.

Macross's heavy quantum is also principally produced inside thermonuclear reactors, albeit by a fold carbon or fold quartz catalyst, and while the force it exerts is gravitational not magnetic it's still used to provide fuel compression and plasma confinement that makes a compact fusion reactor possible.  Instead of magnetic fields, fold waves produced by a fold carbon or fold quartz resonator are used to control the amount of gravitational force.  It can similarly be used for reactionless flight via antigravity or opposing gravity ("falling up"), and like Minovsky particles compressing heavy quantum to the point of fusion with itself releases an incredible amount of energy that's focused into the most destructive form of beam weaponry: the heavy quantum reaction cannon AKA super dimension energy cannon.  The main thing it doesn't do that Minovsky particles do is block radiation. 

The other key difference is that there's only one flavor of Minovsky particles... whereas the force heavy quantum can exert varies depending on the purity of the fold carbon or fold quartz used to produce it, which can vary wildly.  Letting normal heavy quantum collapse on itself will yield a thermonuclear boom (this is largely how thermonuclear reaction bombs work), but letting the superheavy quantum produced by fold carbon collapse on itself yields a fold effect intense enough to be a pseudo black hole (a dimension eater bomb).

[twich]

51 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Like a lot of things in mecha anime, it's one of those "it's all in the manual" sort of situations with the information.

The "heavy quantum" in Macross that is so critical to the operation of thermonuclear reactors and fold technology is very much inspired by the exotic Minovsky particles that make much of the advanced technology in Gundam's Universal Century era go.  Minovsky particles are exotic charged particles that are a product of fusing deuterium and helium-3.  The positively and negatively charged Minovsky particles naturally align themselves into a sort of lattice based on opposing charges.  Almost all of their tricks depend on the Minovsky particles being charged particles and interacting with electromagnetic fields/waves.  In extreme densities, they can block heat and neutron radiation from a fusion reaction, letting them be used as a self-sustaining form of shielding in fusion reactors.  In lower but still high densities they can jam radio and radar in a manner similar to chaff (but longer lasting) by absorbing radio waves.  They can also be used in certain kinds of sensors, and fusing them using magnetic pressure releases an enormous amount of energy that is focused to produce destructive high energy particle beams.  A similar effect can allow ships to float on a cushion of high density Minovsky particles via magnetic levitation.

Macross's heavy quantum is also principally produced inside thermonuclear reactors, albeit by a fold carbon or fold quartz catalyst, and while the force it exerts is gravitational not magnetic it's still used to provide fuel compression and plasma confinement that makes a compact fusion reactor possible.  Instead of magnetic fields, fold waves produced by a fold carbon or fold quartz resonator are used to control the amount of gravitational force.  It can similarly be used for reactionless flight via antigravity or opposing gravity ("falling up"), and like Minovsky particles compressing heavy quantum to the point of fusion with itself releases an incredible amount of energy that's focused into the most destructive form of beam weaponry: the heavy quantum reaction cannon AKA super dimension energy cannon.  The main thing it doesn't do that Minovsky particles do is block radiation. 

The other key difference is that there's only one flavor of Minovsky particles... whereas the force heavy quantum can exert varies depending on the purity of the fold carbon or fold quartz used to produce it, which can vary wildly.  Letting normal heavy quantum collapse on itself will yield a thermonuclear boom (this is largely how thermonuclear reaction bombs work), but letting the superheavy quantum produced by fold carbon collapse on itself yields a fold effect intense enough to be a pseudo black hole (a dimension eater bomb).

Now I know from being on these boards for almost 2 decades and from discussions, humans, as of the late 2060's can synthesize fold carbon rather well, but still lack the ability to synthesize fold quartz.  The fold carbon is present on the base line VF-31, and I may assume incorrectly, but is located next to the monitor turret on the spine of the fighter craft.  I also recall you translating the fact that in the VF-31AX Variable Fighter Master File that one of the versions of the YF-29 had Fold Carbon in place of Fold Quartz to try to get the tap on the limitless energy from fold space to power the Energy Conversion Armor in all modes and power the weapons and boost the engine output to try to match the YF-29 that SMS let Alto use in the last battle with the Varja.  Very interesting stuff.

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

17 hours ago, twich said:

Now I know from being on these boards for almost 2 decades and from discussions, humans, as of the late 2060's can synthesize fold carbon rather well, but still lack the ability to synthesize fold quartz.

Yup... whether the next Macross series will change that is unknown, but as of Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! (2068), Humanity can apparently synthesize fold carbon of such high quality that it can approach a tiny fraction (~1%) of the potential of fold quartz but is still unable to achieve a synthetic version of fold quartz itself.

 

17 hours ago, twich said:

The fold carbon is present on the base line VF-31, and I may assume incorrectly, but is located next to the monitor turret on the spine of the fighter craft.

Fold carbon is used in all sorts of systems, like the Gravity and Inertia Control systems inside of thermonuclear reactors, ship-based gravity control systems, fold communications and radar systems, fold navigation systems ("fold drives"), dimensional beam weapons, the detonation mechanisms of thermonuclear reaction warheads, holographic projection systems, and so on.  Master File also suggests that it's used in advanced computer systems.  Essentially, it only really does two or three things: it's a catalyst for producing heavy quantum, it can function as a higher dimension equivalent to a radio crystal, and if Master File is accurate it can be used to make computer circuitry.

The trial production model VF-31A has two large fold carbon pieces inset along the spine of the aircraft, though it's not 100% clear what they're for.  

 

17 hours ago, twich said:

I also recall you translating the fact that in the VF-31AX Variable Fighter Master File that one of the versions of the YF-29 had Fold Carbon in place of Fold Quartz to try to get the tap on the limitless energy from fold space to power the Energy Conversion Armor in all modes and power the weapons and boost the engine output to try to match the YF-29 that SMS let Alto use in the last battle with the Varja.  Very interesting stuff.

Yup, that is the Master File-original YF-29C... a (failed) experiment meant to facilitate development of a mass production-worthy version of the YF-29 using carefully selected ultra-high purity fold carbon in place of the nearly-impossible-to-obtain ultra-high purity fold quartz used in the original YF-29 or extraordinarily rare super-high purity fold quartz used by the handful of YF-29Bs produced.  With the very best fold carbon Humanity could make, the fold wave system only achieved about 1% of the potential the original YF-29 displayed in Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye.

[Gendo Koun]

"Space Magic" as they say eh?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Gendo Koun said:

"Space Magic" as they say eh?

They've got a sense of humor about it too... both in production terms and in the Macross setting itself.

Going back as far as the original VF-1 technical manual, the name of the system that controls the operation of OTM thermonuclear reactors is literally "MAGIC".

(The acronym is short for MAtrix of Gravity and Inertia Control.)

We engineers do love to have fun with acronyms. Sadly, the leadership types tend not to let us get away with most of it... especially when it's a rude word or forms a joke when read aloud.

[Hiriyu]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They've got a sense of humor about it too... both in production terms and in the Macross setting itself.

Tangentially, I think this is really one of the key elements about Macross that had enthralled me as a kid and has kept my interest and appreciation for it for decades. The design staff leans so far into real world industrial design and engineering practice that, regardless of the validity of the subject matter it remains compelling and mostly self-consistent. It's just good scifi, however farfetched. To top it off the mechanical and graphic design is just gorgeous, and the depth of the world-building in terms of art assets is mind-blowing.

[TG Remix]

So some curious musing; we know how most branches of the New UN uses Valkyries and extra mechs; NUN Spacy and Air Force primarily uses Valkyries, the few times the Navy would be relevant as well (including specific models of the VF-4 and VA-3 for the NUN Navy), and the NUNS Marines using both Valkyries and Zentradi mech. Now I'm wondering how extensive the use of Valkyries would be used within the Army branch aside from general air support.

 

Probably could see them using Destroids since even old SW1-era models find themselves being used all the way up to the VF-X2 era and then there's the Super Defender from the Macross Galaxy fleet. Would also assume Zentradi pods and battlesuits could also be used in more branches then just the Marines; the Reguld's are primarily used for ground operations if not in space for example.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

So some curious musing; we know how most branches of the New UN uses Valkyries and extra mechs; NUN Spacy and Air Force primarily uses Valkyries, the few times the Navy would be relevant as well (including specific models of the VF-4 and VA-3 for the NUN Navy), and the NUNS Marines using both Valkyries and Zentradi mech. Now I'm wondering how extensive the use of Valkyries would be used within the Army branch aside from general air support.

Hard to say... in no small part because characters explicitly affiliated with the UN Army are vanishingly rare in Macross.

The only one I can say with 100% confidence was a UN Army officer is the UN Army Colonel commanding the air defense of Macross City in the Macross II OVA's penultimate episode.  That's one of the only times that branch of service has been clearly delineated by uniform, with the UN Army personnel wearing khaki uniform jackets and slacks as opposed to the Spacy's black jackets and white slacks.  Of course, in that timeline, Destroids never faded into obscurity the way they did in the main timeline.

IIRC, the Army's the only branch that has NOT been mentioned as using Valkyries... we've got example squadrons and/or characters representing the Air Force, Marine Corps, Spacy, Spacy Air Force, and Spacy Marine Corps.

Considering the overwhelming emphasis on space-based defense, I'm not sure the Army would even have a need to have Valkyries.  The Zentradi are not inclined to take and hold land.  Their attitude is more "that's a nice planet you have there, shame if someone glassed it from orbit".  I'm not even sure what the Army would do in the modern era, apart from possibly providing infantry for security inside of emigrant ships and so on... assuming the Spacy doesn't have infantry of its own for that.

 

2 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Probably could see them using Destroids since even old SW1-era models find themselves being used all the way up to the VF-X2 era and then there's the Super Defender from the Macross Galaxy fleet.

In the main Macross timeline... probably not, IMO.

In Macross II, the Destroid concept remained tactically viable and new models of Destroid were in widespread use throughout the Mardook conflict in 2092 with new versions of the Tomahawk, Phalanx, Defender, and Monster.

The main Macross timeline from Macross Plus onwards essentially took the stance that Destroids and many other equipment decisions made in the runup to the First Space War were conceptual misses based on the incorrect assumption that a war with aliens would take the form of a classic Alien Invasion and ground war against occupying forces.  The UN Forces learned to their great surprise and detriment that the Zentradi really didn't care for that, and the ground-based defenses were wiped out without firing a shot by orbital bombardment.  It's implied that Destroids as a concept didn't last much past the end of the First Space War, since planetary defense shifted its focus to space and point defense guns and anti-aircraft missile batteries could do the same job less expensively on emigrant ships and New UN Spacy warships.

The Cheyenne II was kind of a surprise when Frontier aired for those reasons, and even Macross Chronicle suggests that the re-adoption of Destroids is an isolated phenomenon covering some weird corner cases.  Even the Frontier materials point to the Cheyenne II still just being an overcomplex air defense gun and that they typically aren't even manned when they're used on the Macross Quarter.  Their main utility seems to be that they don't mess up the pavement the way a Valkyrie does when it's walking in Battroid.

 

2 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Would also assume Zentradi pods and battlesuits could also be used in more branches then just the Marines; the Reguld's are primarily used for ground operations if not in space for example.

In a limited manner?

It was well attested to in Frontier-era materials that the New UN Forces had a great fondness for the Queadluun-series battle suits due to their incredible maneuverability and high overall combat performance.  So much so that, when the number of remaining Queadluun suits dropped due to the difficulty of repair they set out to capture the factory satellite to not only make their own but develop an improved version that we see in the Macross Frontier series as the Queadluun-Rhea/56.

It was known from the original series that the New UN Forces initially made use of Regults produced by the captured factory satellites, but it wasn't until Macross Delta that there was any indication they were STILL using them.  Especially given that they have low survivability and that the cramped conditions and low level of automation make them rather uncomfortable to operate.  Presumably the Regult Type-104, Type-106, and Super Glaug are better in that regard, but I'd expect that Valkyries have probably stolen their thunder rather comprehensively except among new Zentradi recruits used to the stock model.

[TG Remix]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The only one I can say with 100% confidence was a UN Army officer is the UN Army Colonel commanding the air defense of Macross City in the Macross II OVA's penultimate episode.  That's one of the only times that branch of service has been clearly delineated by uniform, with the UN Army personnel wearing khaki uniform jackets and slacks as opposed to the Spacy's black jackets and white slacks.  Of course, in that timeline, Destroids never faded into obscurity the way they did in the main timeline.

I don't think any distinction of branches in terms of uniforms or pilot suits have been made regarding the main continuity like that. Everyone pretty much wears the same clothes from what can I gather.

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Considering the overwhelming emphasis on space-based defense, I'm not sure the Army would even have a need to have Valkyries.  The Zentradi are not inclined to take and hold land.  Their attitude is more "that's a nice planet you have there, shame if someone glassed it from orbit".  I'm not even sure what the Army would do in the modern era, apart from possibly providing infantry for security inside of emigrant ships and so on... assuming the Spacy doesn't have infantry of its own for that.

Could see infantry being a thing in more than one branch, IIRC the EX-Gear belonging to the Frontier fleet did belong to the Special Forces, and also from the same series there seems to still be a use for armored vehicles.

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The main Macross timeline from Macross Plus onwards essentially took the stance that Destroids and many other equipment decisions made in the runup to the First Space War were conceptual misses based on the incorrect assumption that a war with aliens would take the form of a classic Alien Invasion and ground war against occupying forces..(cont.)

So pretty much their game appearances are probably off-the-peg models that haven't been touched at all since the SWI-era I'm assuming. Makes sense considering they're usually piloted by either terrorist or paramilitary organizations.

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It was well attested to in Frontier-era materials that the New UN Forces had a great fondness for the Queadluun-series battle suits due to their incredible maneuverability and high overall combat performance.  So much so that, when the number of remaining Queadluun suits dropped due to the difficulty of repair they set out to capture the factory satellite to not only make their own but develop an improved version that we see in the Macross Frontier series as the Queadluun-Rhea/56.

I think at least in the Macross Chronicle book it specifically said the Queadluun-Rau was valued for its dogfighting abilities. And considering they seemed more than a match for the VF-1s in their time, I can definitely believe that. Battlesuits in general seem to be the most "all-purpose" use in terms of Zentradi mechs. 

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It was known from the original series that the New UN Forces initially made use of Regults produced by the captured factory satellites, but it wasn't until Macross Delta that there was any indication they were STILL using them.  Especially given that they have low survivability and that the cramped conditions and low level of automation make them rather uncomfortable to operate.  Presumably the Regult Type-104, Type-106, and Super Glaug are better in that regard, but I'd expect that Valkyries have probably stolen their thunder rather comprehensively except among new Zentradi recruits used to the stock model.

Regults are also dirt cheap relative to Valkyrie designs, so their still being around for New UN-Zentradi is completely believable. Personally, it's hilarious and mildly sad that the Super-Glaug, in which its predecessor was exceptionally rare because of its Factory Satellites being destroyed got a "brand new" model for New UN use yet there was not a single Nousjaduel-Ger in sight in the ragtag reprisal appearances of Zentradi mechs in Delta. As if the galaxy is against that design specifically. 🤣

[Seto Kaiba]

33 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

I don't think any distinction of branches in terms of uniforms or pilot suits have been made regarding the main continuity like that. Everyone pretty much wears the same clothes from what can I gather.

We've never or almost never seen individuals from two separate branches together at the same time in the main Macross timeline.  Almost everyone seems to be from the Spacy.

The main exception is Isamu Dyson, the New UN Forces multiply-regifted holiday fruitcake who was bounced between the Spacy, Navy, Air Force, and Spacy Air Force.

 

33 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Could see infantry being a thing in more than one branch, IIRC the EX-Gear belonging to the Frontier fleet did belong to the Special Forces, and also from the same series there seems to still be a use for armored vehicles.

Very likely, yeah.

 

33 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

So pretty much their game appearances are probably off-the-peg models that haven't been touched at all since the SWI-era I'm assuming. Makes sense considering they're usually piloted by either terrorist or paramilitary organizations.

That does appear to be the case.  The only mention of attempts to improve the stock models comes from Macross R in 2058, when Macross Galaxy was experimenting with the application of 5th Gen VF technology to First Space War-era Destroids for some reason.

 

33 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

I think at least in the Macross Chronicle book it specifically said the Queadluun-Rau was valued for its dogfighting abilities. And considering they seemed more than a match for the VF-1s in their time, I can definitely believe that. Battlesuits in general seem to be the most "all-purpose" use in terms of Zentradi mechs. 

Battle suits are definitely the most survivable of the Zentradi units, since they boast better armor than the regular battle pods.

The New UN Forces improved version of the Queadluun-Rau was about equal to a Gen 4 or Gen 4.5 VF, which is pretty darn impressive.  Of course, Humanity's saving grace when facing the Queadluun series in Zentradi hands is that they're quite rare due to the complexity and cost of their manufacture.  

 

33 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Regults are also dirt cheap relative to Valkyrie designs, so their still being around for New UN-Zentradi is completely believable. Personally, it's hilarious and mildly sad that the Super-Glaug, in which its predecessor was exceptionally rare because of its Factory Satellites being destroyed got a "brand new" model for New UN use yet there was not a single Nousjaduel-Ger in sight in the ragtag reprisal appearances of Zentradi mechs in Delta. As if the galaxy is against that design specifically. 🤣

True, they are cheap... but that comes at the expense of low survivability, low operator comfort, and high strain on the operator in operation.  The New UN Forces mercifully thinks rather more of its Zentradi pilots than the Protoculture did, so it's not surprising that even the improved Regults don't appear to be widely used and the Zentradi forces are implied to mainly use far more defensible units like the Neo Glaug bis and Queadluun-Rhea if they're not just miclones using VFs.

One of the details I really enjoy is that Master File and other books occasionally offer details of postwar Zentradi VF squadrons with markings and heraldry using Zentradi text and evocative unit names like the "Big Aces".

[Bolt]

Hey, do any of the new Variable Fighter Master Files have any  nfo on the new Zentradi mecha , as seen in Delta?

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Hey, do any of the new Variable Fighter Master Files have any  nfo on the new Zentradi mecha , as seen in Delta?

Not that I have seen. The only enemy mecha covered in the recent ones have been the Sv-262 Draken III and Sv-303 Vivasvat.

[TG Remix]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That does appear to be the case.  The only mention of attempts to improve the stock models comes from Macross R in 2058, when Macross Galaxy was experimenting with the application of 5th Gen VF technology to First Space War-era Destroids for some reason.

Well if its description is to be believed and it's said to not only have a high rate of operation and find itself useful in emigration fleets and planets then it's doing something right. 😆

 

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

so it's not surprising that even the improved Regults don't appear to be widely used and the Zentradi forces are implied to mainly use far more defensible units like the Neo Glaug bis and Queadluun-Rhea if they're not just miclones using VFs.

Still trying to wrap my head around how a variable battle pod which was made for a Zentradi child to pilot can also accommodate regular-sized Zentradi. Kinda wished we actually had dimensions of the Variable/Neo Glaug instead of just winging it because it looks to be on the small side in Macross M3, but in the Plus video game, its Gerwalk form stands taller than the decently sized YF-21 Battroid.

 

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One of the details I really enjoy is that Master File and other books occasionally offer details of postwar Zentradi VF squadrons with markings and heraldry using Zentradi text and evocative unit names like the "Big Aces".

Their sense of worldbuilding is my favorite part of the books, even if they don't get the official information exactly correct.

 

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

Hey, do any of the new Variable Fighter Master Files have any  nfo on the new Zentradi mecha , as seen in Delta?

I'd be surprised if they did. From what I've learned about the Master Files they usually use Zentradi mecha to compare them to other Valkyries, not really expanding on them per se.

[JB0]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

  Of course, Humanity's saving grace when facing the Queadluun series in Zentradi hands is that they're quite rare due to the complexity and cost of their manufacture.  

And also a certain blue-haired pilot with corrective lenses the finest combat instincts this side of Mars himself.

[twich]

This is just a general ask, and frankly, I’m kicking myself for not asking this before. Is there any publications or statistic listings for the variable fighters from Macross II?

More specifically, how much better is the Metal Siren than the VF-2SS? What is the engine output and thrust? Also, why do we not have the same info about the VF-2JA?

I know that MMM and Macross Compendium List the thrust output for the main engines of the VF-2SS, but nothing else….

Just wishing on a prayer, I guess…..

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Well if its description is to be believed and it's said to not only have a high rate of operation and find itself useful in emigration fleets and planets then it's doing something right. 😆

Or they thought it would do something right, at least...

Macross Chronicle's Mechanic Sheets for the Destroid Cheyenne II do say that it was basically useless against the Vajra.  It doesn't seem to have fared any better against Zentradi battle pods in Macross Delta either.  If nothing else, the Destroid Cheyenne II lives up to the Destroid legacy of being jobbers.

 

8 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Still trying to wrap my head around how a variable battle pod which was made for a Zentradi child to pilot can also accommodate regular-sized Zentradi. Kinda wished we actually had dimensions of the Variable/Neo Glaug instead of just winging it because it looks to be on the small side in Macross M3, but in the Plus video game, its Gerwalk form stands taller than the decently sized YF-21 Battroid.

One potential explanation is that the (initially) unmanned Neo Glaug is actually bigger than the Variable Glaug of the late 2010s and early 2020s.

After all, it is a new aircraft based on the Variable Glaug and not simply an unmanned version of the Variable Glaug.  There is a fair amount of real world precedent for that kind of thing, like the relationship between the General Dynamics F-16 and its Mitsubishi F-2 derivative or the Boeing F/A-18 and F/A-18E/F.

If the Neo Glaug was built slightly larger than the original Variable Glaug that would explain both the disparity in the games (though scaling in games is always an issue) and the manned Neo Glaug bis's ability to accept an adult Zentradi pilot as it is said to do in the Macross Frontier novelization and Macross the Ride.

Alternatively, it's possible that if it's the same size that application of more modern technology allowed the designers to hog out a bit more space for the pilot to sit inside of the cockpit block.

 

8 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I'd be surprised if they did. From what I've learned about the Master Files they usually use Zentradi mecha to compare them to other Valkyries, not really expanding on them per se.

My recollection is that the Master File books tend to only mention the Zentradi mecha in passing unless they're directly relevant to the development of a Valkyrie.  There's a fair bit said about the Queadluun-Rau in the VF-22 book, but that's got direct relevance to the VF-22's development because the VF-22 applied lessons learned from the restoration of the Quimeliquola factory satellite that was relocated to Eden for restoration in the 2030s and directly incorporates some technologies from the Queadluun series like the Queadluun's Inertia Vector Control System.

Other than that, they tend to only show up in terms of the very earliest models and "We did X because we studied the Zentradi mecha and they did Y" like calibrating the power of gunpod shells to pierce battle pod armor or adjusting the radars and active stealth systems of VFs after the First Space War to achieve better stealth performance vs. a Zentradi radar system.  They get mentioned in passing in narrative sections that describe how the subject matter VF model saved the day in some skirmish or battle.

 

 

7 hours ago, twich said:

This is just a general ask, and frankly, I’m kicking myself for not asking this before. Is there any publications or statistic listings for the variable fighters from Macross II?

More specifically, how much better is the Metal Siren than the VF-2SS? What is the engine output and thrust? Also, why do we not have the same info about the VF-2JA?

I know that MMM and Macross Compendium List the thrust output for the main engines of the VF-2SS, but nothing else….

Just wishing on a prayer, I guess…..

Twich

Woooooah, we're halfway there...

Oh wait, that's not the lyric.

Alas, no.  We know approximately how big the VFs of Macross II are thanks to statements of Battroid mode height and size comparisons from the art books.  We know what they're armed with, and in some cases what some of their key design features or changes are.  But the only one of the Macross II Valkyries to get an actual stat block is the VF-2SS.  That's not even in the contemporary artbooks.  It comes to us from Bandai's 1/100 plamodel kit.  The poster that comes with the kit has, at the bottom, the stat block for the VF-2SS and the Super Armed Pack.  Macross Chronicle subsequently used that information for its Mechanic Sheet.

Perhaps if the OVA had been more popular back when it was new we might've gotten subsequent kits with similar stat blocks, but its lukewarm reception in '92 meant that we got just the one... which has subsequently been re-released several times.

Much of the technical information for the Macross II setting comes from the marginal notes on the animation model sheets and coverage of the OVA in Bandai B-Club magazine in 1992.

[TG Remix]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Chronicle's Mechanic Sheets for the Destroid Cheyenne II do say that it was basically useless against the Vajra.  It doesn't seem to have fared any better against Zentradi battle pods in Macross Delta either.  If nothing else, the Destroid Cheyenne II lives up to the Destroid legacy of being jobbers.

I was referring to Galaxy's Super Defender, but it is a constant truth that the Destroids can only do so much. But to be fair unless you didn't pilot a VF-25 and/or a part of the SMS you didn't have a chance against the Varja to begin with lol.

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One potential explanation is that the (initially) unmanned Neo Glaug is actually bigger than the Variable Glaug of the late 2010s and early 2020s.

After all, it is a new aircraft based on the Variable Glaug and not simply an unmanned version of the Variable Glaug.  There is a fair amount of real world precedent for that kind of thing, like the relationship between the General Dynamics F-16 and its Mitsubishi F-2 derivative or the Boeing F/A-18 and F/A-18E/F.

If the Neo Glaug was built slightly larger than the original Variable Glaug that would explain both the disparity in the games (though scaling in games is always an issue) and the manned Neo Glaug bis's ability to accept an adult Zentradi pilot as it is said to do in the Macross Frontier novelization and Macross the Ride.

Alternatively, it's possible that if it's the same size that application of more modern technology allowed the designers to hog out a bit more space for the pilot to sit inside of the cockpit block.

Having it be a bit bigger would make sense, though I'd assume in-universe you could convert the Variable Glaug into the Neo Glaug if you want to upgrade the model. At the very least its designation VBP-1/VA-110 does seem like it would come from the first Variable Glaug. I was probably against the idea at first considering the VF-3000 was essentially a not-successful scaled-up VF-1 because of its Battroid/Gerwalk joints tending to slip up.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Much of the technical information for the Macross II setting comes from the marginal notes on the animation model sheets and coverage of the OVA in Bandai B-Club magazine in 1992.

Thinking about it the most elusive Macross II mech that has the least info out of it is the Variable Fighter/Powered Armor hybrid since it's considered an enemy belonging to the Mardul yet variable technology to my recollection was only Earth technology in that timeline as well.

[Seto Kaiba]

50 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

I was referring to Galaxy's Super Defender, but it is a constant truth that the Destroids can only do so much. But to be fair unless you didn't pilot a VF-25 and/or a part of the SMS you didn't have a chance against the Varja to begin with lol.

Destroids are kind of screwed coming and going, because the kind of ground warfare they're designed for isn't really a thing in the Macross setting and because mobility matters at least as much as heavy armor in combat their low mobility as walking weapons makes them sitting ducks.

That said, the Spacy didn't have it quite that bad against the Vajra.  The Nightmare Plus did OK, but not great, against them once the Spacy switched to more powerful anti-energy conversion armor ammunition to get through the Vajra's natural defenses.  Once they upgraded to the VF-171EX or VF-171-IIIF they did a lot better since the improvements made them more maneuverable and they were also far better armed, and they were able to largely keep that advantage once they discovered how to jam the Vajra hive mind on a local level so the Vajra couldn't adapt to the new weapons as readily.

 

50 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Having it be a bit bigger would make sense, though I'd assume in-universe you could convert the Variable Glaug into the Neo Glaug if you want to upgrade the model. At the very least its designation VBP-1/VA-110 does seem like it would come from the first Variable Glaug. I was probably against the idea at first considering the VF-3000 was essentially a not-successful scaled-up VF-1 because of its Battroid/Gerwalk joints tending to slip up.

I'm not sure that conversion would be possible... esp. since the Neo Glaug is 20+ years newer than the Variable Glaug and presumably takes advantage of not just improvements made in things like engines, weapons, and avionics but also in materials.

The designation used in Macross R does seem like it would come from the original Variable Glaug.  It's a reference to Project Constant Peg and the US Air Force 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron's secrecy-preserving US designations for captured or clandestinely obtained Soviet aircraft being benchmarked at the Tonopah Test Range.  YF-110 was the US's designation for captured MiG-21s.

 

50 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Thinking about it the most elusive Macross II mech that has the least info out of it is the Variable Fighter/Powered Armor hybrid since it's considered an enemy belonging to the Mardul yet variable technology to my recollection was only Earth technology in that timeline as well.

Yeah, that one's a bit odd... though it has so little screen time.  We do know a modest amount about its armaments, since the line art for it details those relatively clearly.  It has what are essentially non-psycommu funnel missiles, or an early version of the Laser Propelled Pod from the VF-19 Master File.

The one that probably has the least actual information is the VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie AKA the SNN Valkyrie.  About all we know about it is that it debuted as a commercial use VF in 2079 as a part of the Takachihof Corporation's lineup and that SNN uses at least one of them for war reportage.

[TG Remix]

On 8/3/2023 at 3:52 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

That said, the Spacy didn't have it quite that bad against the Vajra.  The Nightmare Plus did OK, but not great, against them once the Spacy switched to more powerful anti-energy conversion armor ammunition to get through the Vajra's natural defenses.  Once they upgraded to the VF-171EX or VF-171-IIIF they did a lot better since the improvements made them more maneuverable and they were also far better armed, and they were able to largely keep that advantage once they discovered how to jam the Vajra hive mind on a local level so the Vajra couldn't adapt to the new weapons as readily.

 

Fair enough! And how could I ever forget the legendary Machida who punched a Vajra right in the face? 😁

 

On 8/3/2023 at 3:52 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The designation used in Macross R does seem like it would come from the original Variable Glaug.  It's a reference to Project Constant Peg and the US Air Force 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron's secrecy-preserving US designations for captured or clandestinely obtained Soviet aircraft being benchmarked at the Tonopah Test Range.  YF-110 was the US's designation for captured MiG-21s.

And in Macross itself we kinda have the inverse; a Valkyrie getting smaller with upgrades like Mylene's VF-11MAX Custom. Unless the VF-11MAX was always a meter shorter then the regular in which case the point still stands.

 

On 8/3/2023 at 3:52 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The one that probably has the least actual information is the VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie AKA the SNN Valkyrie.  About all we know about it is that it debuted as a commercial use VF in 2079 as a part of the Takachihof Corporation's lineup and that SNN uses at least one of them for war reportage.

That is true, I do like how it shows how much Valkyries have become a regular part of the world at that point. Same with the main continuity with 7 Dynamite's VT-1C Commercial Valkyrie and pretty much 85% of the designs in The Ride. I really wish someone made the effort of translating the light novel, it sounds really intriguing regarding its characters and the worldbuilding aspect.

[pengbuzz]

On 8/9/2023 at 7:18 AM, TG Remix said:

That is true, I do like how it shows how much Valkyries have become a regular part of the world at that point. Same with the main continuity with 7 Dynamite's VT-1C Commercial Valkyrie and pretty much 85% of the designs in The Ride. I really wish someone made the effort of translating the light novel, it sounds really intriguing regarding its characters and the worldbuilding aspect.

Yeah; it makes me wonder in the story that after the Unity Government deciding to keep all of that secret, the first thing that happens after the Valkyries and Destroids were revealed to the public was a demand for model kits and toys?

[SebastianP]

So, I've been playing around a bit with the Northampton 3D model that someone extracted from the PS3 games some more, and a question kind of strikes me: How do people get on or off this ship without it being docked to either a bigger ship or a space station? (the docking tube arrangement is in the Mac7 lineart on MMM). 

It can't land (though we see ships hover indefinitely just fine, so not a huge deal); and the standard version most definitely does not have the room for a flight deck. And the "beam me up zone" under the Gefion in Macross 30 is game mechanics, plain and simple. 

In other words, the ship basically has to have a shuttlecraft somewhere, maybe two given how it's symmetrical. So where are they and how do they dock?

Are they in the cavity in the back inboard of the weapons pods? Would there be a hidden hatch on the underside next to the Yamato-esque third bridge?

Actually, do we even have any pictures of shuttles other than Sheryl's private transport, the König Monster and the Delta shuttle? Because none of those would even fit physically through anything that looks like an opening on the Northampton *or* the Stealth Cruiser....

Edited September 3, 2023 by SebastianP

[Bolt]

The bunny shuttle from DYRL?

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Yeah; it makes me wonder in the story that after the Unity Government deciding to keep all of that secret, the first thing that happens after the Valkyries and Destroids were revealed to the public was a demand for model kits and toys?

Let's be honest, if someone developed an actual usable transforming robot for the military we would all absolutely be clamoring for models of it.  

 

3 hours ago, SebastianP said:

So, I've been playing around a bit with the Northampton 3D model that someone extracted from the PS3 games some more, and a question kind of strikes me: How do people get on or off this ship without it being docked to either a bigger ship or a space station? (the docking tube arrangement is in the Mac7 lineart on MMM).

Even though the Northampton-class is ostensibly a dedicated space warship it can probably make a water landing the way many other ships in Macross can.  There are likely quite a few exterior hatches for taking on supplies and munitions that could be used to embark and disembark crew under those circumstances.  I suppose that, since the ship's missile launchers are large enough to launch a VF though, they could also use those as a hatch for loading/unloading.

Of course, the official answer would have to be that the Northampton-class has an internal hangar with an odd sort of ramp on the underside that's only seen in Macross 7 PLUS's episode "SPIRITIA DREAMING".  They apparently have enough space to hold a few VFs (they're shown launching VF-14s) so presumably there's space up there for a small launch or two to transfer personnel and supplies.

 

3 hours ago, SebastianP said:

Actually, do we even have any pictures of shuttles other than Sheryl's private transport, the König Monster and the Delta shuttle? Because none of those would even fit physically through anything that looks like an opening on the Northampton *or* the Stealth Cruiser....

Strictly speaking, only one of those is an actual shuttle... the one Walkure uses as an orbit-to-surface transport in Macross Delta.

Sheryl Nome doesn't have a private transport.  She gets around using Galaxy Starliners: the fold-capable spacefuture equivalent of commercial passenger jets.  She arrives in the Macross Frontier fleet as one of many passengers aboard a regular commercial flight from wherever her previous tour stop was, and the Frontier gov't later charters a flight on a Galaxy Starliner to take her to Gallia IV in order to suppress the discontent among the Zentradi troops stationed there.  (It let them reuse the same starliner CG model.)

The Konig Monster has a mode called shuttle but it isn't really one.  It can't carry passengers in its stock state.  The reason it can in Macross Frontier is because SMS upgraded its Konig Monster in various ways including the installation of a modern EX-Gear flight control system.  Thanks to those upgrades, operations that previously required a pilot and two gunners can now all be managed by a single pilot, leaving the two gunner seats free in the cockpit.

Presumably the modern New UN Forces have some kind of compact launch used for casual transport of personnel and supplies between ships that we just haven't seen.  There were quite a number of specialist auxiliary craft shown in Macross 7 including police patrol vehicles, transports large enough to move Valkyries and bulk cargo, etc.

[SebastianP]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Of course, the official answer would have to be that the Northampton-class has an internal hangar with an odd sort of ramp on the underside that's only seen in Macross 7 PLUS's episode "SPIRITIA DREAMING".  They apparently have enough space to hold a few VFs (they're shown launching VF-14s) so presumably there's space up there for a small launch or two to transfer personnel and supplies.

Thanks! Problem is it's another piece of evidence that the official length of the ship is bunk, tho...

Here are the points I've found so far regarding that:

1 - the official line art of the bridge shows that it has three vertically stacked decks, with a sensor cluster underneath, all under the main windscreen. The middle deck is wide enough for three bridge operators abreast (though there's just a box in the the middle), which means the bridge has to be at least three meters wide. more likely four given that there are consoles to either side of the chair. The spacing of the seats and consoles of the back row of the second deck indicates that there's something like two meters in between the chairs, so I'll go with four meters. If each deck is three meters tall, which seems to be the minimum given how much headroom there looks to be, then the whole windscreen would need to be twelve meters. On the game 3D model, when the ship is scaled to 250 meters, that window is 2 meters wide at its absolute widest, by 6 meters tall. Ergo, in order to make the bridge fit, the ship needs to be 500 meters. (scaling up the bridge on the outside until the interior fits would make it look Super-Deformed...)

2 - the FANKY doujin did a "how do we stack the VF-11s to fit all 37 we see launch from the Stargazer" - the answer was, "gut the entire ship and leave no room for anything except the hangar". And they still had to use a "fat" version of the hull to do it. 

3 - the Gefion's hangar pods in Macross 30 aren't tall enough for most of the fighters to fit through, and especially not the Koenig Monster. Some of the fighters have trouble fitting on the width of the flight deck, even. (Gefion appears to be rendered at the official 250 meter size...)

4 - there's somehow a sixty to eighty meter hatch on the aft belly of the Northampton-class (the VF-14 is just short of 20 meters, and the hatch is more than three times the length of the fighter and we don't see the forward edge of it) where the longest unbroken edge I can find at 250 meter scale is less than 20 meters unless on the actual bustle itself where the engines are. 

5 - the fighters for Operation Stargazers were said to be fired out the missile launchers on the Stargazer... missile launchers which are less than 2 m in diameter on the model. 

(The 2059 model of the ship is actually remarkably proportional to the 2030 model, and there are a lot of features in common to the point where I've been able to almost entirely backdate it with only a few details left to do...)

And finally,

6 - if the ship is 1,200 tons at 250 meters, it's basically made of styrofoam. It's literally the length of a Kirov-class cruiser by its official stats, much more voluminous due to its shape, and weighs 1/20th of what the Kirov does with full magazines and empty tanks.

Whoever wrote the chronicle writeup went through all the papers and only looked for numbers and never analyzed the art, at all, and now we're stuck with numbers that make no sense. 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by SebastianP

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

Thanks! Problem is it's another piece of evidence that [...]

You're building your argument on the basis of a nonscale 3D model from a video game and a fanmade doujinshi.  Those aren't exactly reliable sources.  Especially given how many liberties the doujinshi takes and how it ignores a number of design choices that we know were made in-series.

I'm not going to get into this with you again... I just do not believe your argument has a sound evidentiary basis.

 

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

6 - if the ship is 1,200 tons at 250 meters, it's basically made of styrofoam. It's literally the length of a Kirov-class cruiser by its official stats, much more voluminous due to its shape, and weighs 1/20th of what the Kirov does with full magazines and empty tanks.

This, however, is potentially food for thought and fodder for productive discussion.

If you think about it, there is actually a pretty good reason for this disparity to exist... though it probably wouldn't occur to people who haven't spent an indecent amount of time in and around old warship museums.  Indeed, a fair amount of this would not have occurred to me at all without spending a rather lengthy day rummaging around in the guts of an old Forrest Sherman-class destroyer in parts that tourists would not normally be allowed to visit.

Quite a lot of the weight of a traditional ocean-going warship is tied up in design features that are necessary for an ocean-going warship but not really needed in a dedicated space warship like the Northampton-class.  The keel, the armored conning tower, the waterline armor belt, the heavily armored magazines for gunpowder and other explosives... and so on and so forth.  These are, for the most part, substantially thick chunks of extremely heavy armor-grade steel scattered throughout the ship's structure.  A space warship has no need of a weighted keel for stability or as a primary structural member.  The armor belt and armored conning tower are not particularly useful since attack can come from any direction and quite frankly no amount of armor protects from some of the weapons being used.  There's no need for heavily defended magazines because the main armaments are energy weapons and reaction warheads that contain no explosives and cannot be set off by enemy fire.

So with the benefit of not needing all of that heavy defensive equipment and the benefit of being able to build the ship out of fictional supermaterials that far exceed the structural strength and damage resistance of humble armor-grade steel, the ship can be a lot lighter and a lot roomier without compromising on defense.  It's particularly important that the ships can (and do) cheat up their armor strength using the same energy conversion armor technology used on VFs making the thinner but much tougher layered laminated armor more resilient by pumping it with electromagnetic pulses produced using electrical power from the thermonuclear reactor(s).  Unlike a modern fission reactor, the reactors in Macross's ships can be made very small thanks to the advanced alien technology that allows for practical aneutronic fusion via gravity control and power generation using high efficiency thermoelectrics, so a huge chunk of the mass of a modern nuclear warship made up of shielding and steam systems is simply unnecessary.  Then, of course, there's the question of the size of some of this equipment thanks to alien futuretech.  The compact thermonuclear reactor in the VF-1's engines is about the size of a beach ball and it can still generate 650MW+.  If you can get a gigawatt out of a power system roughly the size of a large suitcase, the actual reactors for these ships are probably not much bigger than a minivan.  Not to mention a lot of space can be saved by colocating the reactors with the engine nozzles, since the main propulsion system uses plasma from the reactor as the primary propellant.

So... yeah, you aren't exactly wrong when you accuse these ships of being big empty boxes.  That's what they canonically are.  It's even in the name of an entire category of ships, the ARMDs.  They're a box full of fighters with some crew quarters, fuel tanks, guns, and engines grafted on.  They can be light because the structural requirements to build them aren't the same as oceangoing ships, the materials are lighter and stronger, and the systems needed to support them are extremely compact thanks to alien technology and some savvy design.  These ships are acknowledged to be made structurally simple in order to be highly versatile and easy to mass produce, after all.

 

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

Whoever wrote the chronicle writeup went through all the papers and only looked for numbers and never analyzed the art, at all, and now we're stuck with numbers that make no sense. 

Macross Chronicle is a compilation of previously existing materials, for the most part.

Reconsidering the official stats was not a normal part of its objective.

[SebastianP]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You're building your argument on the basis of a nonscale 3D model from a video game and a fanmade doujinshi.  Those aren't exactly reliable sources.  Especially given how many liberties the doujinshi takes and how it ignores a number of design choices that we know were made in-series.

I'm not going to get into this with you again... I just do not believe your argument has a sound evidentiary basis.

A 3D model is "whatever scale you decide it is" when you have a 3D program that can be set to work in meters. I made the 3D model 1:1 scale according to the official chronicle size. And the video game model is quite possibly the same overall mesh as was used for the TV show, it certainly has the same texture, maybe at a lower resolution. Even the smudge pattern is the same. It's not like the shape is super complex or it was fetured as a "hero unit" at any point, so it never needed to be super high detail in the first place. 

The fanmade doujinshi only really needed to draw a triangle the size of the Northampton's forward hull, and a triangle the size of a folded up VF-11, and attempt to fit as many VF-11 triangles into the size of the Northampton triangle as possible. Which is what they did, except with silhouettes of the fighters. The liberties taken by FANKY involve *making the ship bigger and fold the fighters up tighter in order to make things fit*. They didn't shrink the ship any, or make the fighters bigger. 

And it's not like "bad official figures" is a new thing - Star Wars had the infamous Executor controversy, where the books were saying Vader's flagship was five times the length of its escorts and all the visual evidence in the movie said it was more like 11 or 12 times, and the fans got vocal enough that Lucasfilm actually changed their mind (and amusingly claimed the older figure was "Imperial disinformation" that had been reprinted without checking). 

Stargate SG-1 had its liner notes, where the fighters were 30 meters and the carriers were 195 and 225 meters, which meant the fighters wouldn't fit in the hangars (they were literally too wide); the VFX crew eventually leaked the models, which had been made 516 and 650 meters long in 1:1 scale which could be verified by the size of the bridge chairs; while the fighters were only 14 meters and could be comfortably parked three wide in the hangar just like they did in the interior shots in the show.

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So... yeah, you aren't exactly wrong when you accuse these ships of being big empty boxes.  That's what they canonically are.  It's even in the name of an entire category of ships, the ARMDs.  They're a box full of fighters with some crew quarters, fuel tanks, guns, and engines grafted on.  They can be light because the structural requirements to build them aren't the same as oceangoing ships, the materials are lighter and stronger, and the systems needed to support them are extremely compact thanks to alien technology and some savvy design.  These ships are acknowledged to be made structurally simple in order to be highly versatile and easy to mass produce, after all.

 

Several points here.

First of all - if the ship masses a mere 1,200 tons, it launched a third of its mass in fighters during Operation stargazer, as 28 nine-ton VF-11s, 4 twelve-ton VF-17s, and 4 eight-and-a-half ton VF-19s add up to 336 tons total, *without* super packs, fuel, or ammunition. Oh, and Max' VF-22S, that's another nine to nine and a half tons. This is easily in the 400 ton range just by allowing one ton each for super packs for the 32 fighters that had those, plus another ton in fuel for all fighters. That's absurd. 

Second - the Hindenburg was 245 meters and massed 200 tons. The Northampton would be having a density close to that of a Zeppelin.

Third - you can tell what a decent mass for the ship would be by scaling the 7.77 million ton, 1510 meter Battle 7 down to 1/6 scale, which drops its mass to 36,000 tons at just over 250 meters. (While it would have 1/6th of the bulkheads and decks inside, those decks and bulkheads would be 6 times as thick relatively, so it's basically a wash). A Northampton is less blocky and less robust than a Battle class, so I'll allow it to be a third of that mass, so 12,000 tons. Mass controversy solved by means of shifting a decimal point. (same goes for the Guantanamo, which is the size of an aircraft carrier and should mass like an aircraft carrier, i.e. 90,000 tons rather than 9,000.)

Basically, I'm more willing to believe that the numbers are wrong when they contradict everything else I can see, than I am willing to believe convoluted explanations for why the numbers are accurate. Occam's razor and whatnot. 

In this case, at 250 meters I'm more than willing to believe that someone forgot a zero in the mass of the ship; but if the 250 is wrong like I believe, then the 1200 tons even more wrong. 

 

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Chronicle is a compilation of previously existing materials, for the most part.

Reconsidering the official stats was not a normal part of its objective.

Yet the length of the Northampton-class was revised from 250 to 252.5 meters.

Databook authors don't care - you saw that with the Delta stuff. I'm the kind of person who'll go by the VFX over the databook when the databook figures don't work. 

(Hmm. At some point I should actually check how big the DYRL macross model becomes if I scale it by the conning tower. That might actually make some sense of the city interior.)

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

As it's a holiday, and for once I'm not being dragged into the office anyway, I decided to spend some quality time with Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II.

This is definitely one of the less-good Master File books and it takes a lot of weird liberties with the VF-22 design... but there are still some interesting tidbits here and there, esp. as it's written from a point around 13 years after the in-universe publication of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur.

Like the VF-19 book, the VF-22 book spends a fair amount of the introduction praising the VF-11 as an extremely capable multirole VF that was overwhelmingly superior to Zentradi battle pods one-on-one to the extent that the New UN Forces considered it unthinkable that they would lose in an even fight.  This VF-22 book goes a bit farther and asserts that the VF-11 had no noteworthy drawbacks and that as a result development stagnated somewhat because the only perceived needs for other/newer models were to cover roles that the VF-11 wasn't designed for.

Unlike the VF-19 book, the VF-22 book walks back the idea that the "Spica Shock" - the incident in which a Zentradi main fleet appeared and destroyed the colony on Alpha Virginis III in 2037 - was the prime motivation for Project Super Nova.  Instead, it paints a picture of both Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy lobbying the New UN Government to approve development of new model VFs on two points:

• Preventing the stagnation of technological development.
• The existence of "unknown threats" in the galaxy.

In the former case, there's an interesting take on the subject of an unmanned (all-Ghost) air force in which it's presented as being proposed by Shinsei and General Galaxy as a far future ideal that was fundamentally unworkable at present.  The reason?  Employment.  Due to the size and nature of emigrant fleets, the military was one of the largest employers of young adults who'd grown up in the aftermath of the First Space War and they couldn't feasibly switch to an all-Ghost airforce without tanking the economy.  Nevertheless, that idea was carried forward by a faction in the military headed up by General Higgins while an opposing faction championed the continued development of manned fighters through the Super Nova project.  

The latter point carries an interesting implication on its own.  Namely, it suggests that the New UN Forces may have been aware of at least two specific threats before they were officially encountered.  The first mentioned is the Protodeviln.  The VF-22 Master File suggests that the New UN Forces were at least partly aware of a possible energy lifeform on the Varauta system's ice world for years before they were accidentally released by the Blue Rhinoceros Corps.  The other unknown-at-the-time threat mentioned is the Vajra, who the book asserts have (at the time of the book's writing in 2063) come to be regarded as potentially responsible for a number of unexplained incidents in which survey fleets had lost ships and carrier-based aircraft without explanation.  The Spica Shock was apparently the coup de grace that convinced the New UN Government and New UN Forces that, in all likelihood, the two defense corporations had a pretty good point.

After dinner, I'm gonna dig into the next section, that seems to be about Alexei Kurakin's founding of General Galaxy and his training of handpicked Zentradi students to become General Galaxy's core development team.

[Seto Kaiba]

So... continuing from where I left off...

The VF-22 Master File skims over the actual creation of General Galaxy and talks instead about how the newly founded General Galaxy made a habit of scouring the population of Zentradi left on Earth to find individuals with particularly high aptitude for the sciences and engineering.  It's noted that while the Zentradi are little different to humans in terms of intelligence, that most first-generation Zentradi immigrants to Earth were of the combatant types who were more inclined towards/interested in physical activity.  Those who had been assigned to headquarters and logistics type roles were apparently had an easier time transitioning to research and development work.  General Galaxy's dev team ultimately ended up with less than twenty engineers initially, many being individually-tutored Zentradi recruited personally by Kurakin.  Argus Selzer, formerly known as Toran 825, is said to have been Alexei Kurakin's top student and inherited leadership of the company and the position of the company's chief engineer after Kurakin's untimely passing in a flight test accident in 2026.  That section wraps up with the mention that, as "peace children" born after the First Space War began entering the workforce one particularly noteworthy half-Zentradi by the name of Guld Goa Bowman was considered the most promising new recruit to General Galaxy's VF Development Division.

The next section goines into Guld's own history a bit.  It's noted that, while he was enrolled in the Aeronautical College of Engineering on Eden, he obtained a Valkyrie pilot license through the New UN Forces internship system.  On graduation, he moved to Earth to take a position at the General Galaxy head office in the VF Development Division as a flight control systems researcher, where he caught the eye of Argus Selzer.  When Project Super Nova was initiated, General Galaxy held an internal review of independent research to select systems best able to meet the military's need and Bowman's proposal for a radical new man-machine interface (the Brain Direct Interface) was adopted.  It's noted that it wasn't entirely accurate to refer to Guld as the YF-21's chief engineer, but General Galaxy made a concerted internal effort to credit him with more involvement in the project out of respect for him after his unfortunate passing in the Sharon Apple Incident.  They also note that, out of respect for him and his contributions, the development base "Guld Works" was named in his honor.

There's mention of a large number of experimental aircraft including a number of modified VF-9s and VF-14s that were used to evaluate various aspects of the YF-21's proposed design including the deformable wings and the adoption of the Inertia Vector Control System.  Two are described in some detail... a unit codenamed GG-103 that was used as a test platform for the YF-21's deformable wing and a unit GG-106 that was used to evaluate the YF-21's battroid mode body plan after testing revealed significant issues with the introduction of the inertia vector control system to older models on an experimental basis.

There are some mentions of how the New UN Forces mandated that various parts be used, occasionally from third-party or rival corporations, and that there were some attempts at sabotage by supplying defective parts to the parts pool the New UN Forces assembled that were then randomly sent to either Super Nova developer.

It's mentioned that there was apparently some dispute among the design team working on the YF-21 whether to adopt a three-hulled/trimaran design similar to the VF-4 and VF-14 and accommodate the military's armament requirements by increasing the space between the engine nacelles or to adopt a more radical design that focused on internal storage to focus on better stealth performance combining passive and active stealth.  Bowman was a champion of the latter proposal that ultimately won out.

Guld supposedly missed the completion of the YF-21-1 because he was busy at Eden Aeronautical Institute of Technology completing the prototype of the BDI for Unit 2.  There's mention of Dr. Ludmilla Blackwood, a frequently recurring character in Master File, having been one of the lead developers of both the next-generation airframe control AI ARIEL used on the VF-19 and production VF-22 and the self-learning AI used on the Ghost X-9 and Sharon Apple system having been potentially in communication with both Guld Goa Bowman and Jan Neumann of the YF-21 and YF-19 teams respectively and helping resolve the issues of making the airframe control AI play nicely with Guld's BDI system.

[pengbuzz]

22 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So... continuing from where I left off...

The VF-22 Master File skims over the actual creation of General Galaxy and talks instead about how the newly founded General Galaxy made a habit of scouring the population of Zentradi left on Earth to find individuals with particularly high aptitude for the sciences and engineering.  It's noted that while the Zentradi are little different to humans in terms of intelligence, that most first-generation Zentradi immigrants to Earth were of the combatant types who were more inclined towards/interested in physical activity.  Those who had been assigned to headquarters and logistics type roles were apparently had an easier time transitioning to research and development work.  General Galaxy's dev team ultimately ended up with less than twenty engineers initially, many being individually-tutored Zentradi recruited personally by Kurakin.  Argus Selzer, formerly known as Toran 825, is said to have been Alexei Kurakin's top student and inherited leadership of the company and the position of the company's chief engineer after Kurakin's untimely passing in a flight test accident in 2026.  That section wraps up with the mention that, as "peace children" born after the First Space War began entering the workforce one particularly noteworthy half-Zentradi by the name of Guld Goa Bowman was considered the most promising new recruit to General Galaxy's VF Development Division.

The next section goines into Guld's own history a bit.  It's noted that, while he was enrolled in the Aeronautical College of Engineering on Eden, he obtained a Valkyrie pilot license through the New UN Forces internship system.  On graduation, he moved to Earth to take a position at the General Galaxy head office in the VF Development Division as a flight control systems researcher, where he caught the eye of Argus Selzer.  When Project Super Nova was initiated, General Galaxy held an internal review of independent research to select systems best able to meet the military's need and Bowman's proposal for a radical new man-machine interface (the Brain Direct Interface) was adopted.  It's noted that it wasn't entirely accurate to refer to Guld as the YF-21's chief engineer, but General Galaxy made a concerted internal effort to credit him with more involvement in the project out of respect for him after his unfortunate passing in the Sharon Apple Incident.  They also note that, out of respect for him and his contributions, the development base "Guld Works" was named in his honor.

There's mention of a large number of experimental aircraft including a number of modified VF-9s and VF-14s that were used to evaluate various aspects of the YF-21's proposed design including the deformable wings and the adoption of the Inertia Vector Control System.  Two are described in some detail... a unit codenamed GG-103 that was used as a test platform for the YF-21's deformable wing and a unit GG-106 that was used to evaluate the YF-21's battroid mode body plan after testing revealed significant issues with the introduction of the inertia vector control system to older models on an experimental basis.

There are some mentions of how the New UN Forces mandated that various parts be used, occasionally from third-party or rival corporations, and that there were some attempts at sabotage by supplying defective parts to the parts pool the New UN Forces assembled that were then randomly sent to either Super Nova developer.

It's mentioned that there was apparently some dispute among the design team working on the YF-21 whether to adopt a three-hulled/trimaran design similar to the VF-4 and VF-14 and accommodate the military's armament requirements by increasing the space between the engine nacelles or to adopt a more radical design that focused on internal storage to focus on better stealth performance combining passive and active stealth.  Bowman was a champion of the latter proposal that ultimately won out.

Guld supposedly missed the completion of the YF-21-1 because he was busy at Eden Aeronautical Institute of Technology completing the prototype of the BDI for Unit 2.  There's mention of Dr. Ludmilla Blackwood, a frequently recurring character in Master File, having been one of the lead developers of both the next-generation airframe control AI ARIEL used on the VF-19 and production VF-22 and the self-learning AI used on the Ghost X-9 and Sharon Apple system having been potentially in communication with both Guld Goa Bowman and Jan Neumann of the YF-21 and YF-19 teams respectively and helping resolve the issues of making the airframe control AI play nicely with Guld's BDI system.

Seto, does any of this square up with Macross Chronicle? I don't know how in-depth it went (if it did so in any way) into Guld's past. The part about AI ARIEL and "making it play nice with Guld's BDI system" would cerainly explain much in M+ (where Guld's system interpreted his "daydream" about crashing Isamu's VF-11 as a command input into the system).

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Seto, does any of this square up with Macross Chronicle? I don't know how in-depth it went (if it did so in any way) into Guld's past. The part about AI ARIEL and "making it play nice with Guld's BDI system" would cerainly explain much in M+ (where Guld's system interpreted his "daydream" about crashing Isamu's VF-11 as a command input into the system).

It's more detailed than Macross Chronicle's version, but if you discount the parts about the motivations behind Project Super Nova being phantom enemies and the Spica Shock, it's not exactly contradictory.  Ludmilla Blackwood is a non-canon character invented for Master File, but General Higgins's role as the #1 supporter of the Ghostbird project is a part of the official setting as is Guld's educational background and the nature of his pilot license.  Argus Selzer is also an official setting (mentioned only) character.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm headed into a ten day "Death march" type release period, so I figured I'd relax and knock a bit more out before things go to pot.

So... when Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II finally gets down to the actual fighter itself... it kind of skips right to the prototype phase, mentioning in passing that the General Galaxy design team produced thirteen experimental testbeds (XVF-21) before completing the initial YF-21-1 prototype in early 2038.  The prototype was completed around three months ahead of Shinsei Industry's YF-19-1, and had its maiden flight on Earth at the General Galaxy headquarters before being sent to the New Edwards Test Flight Center over on Eden for evaluation.  Its test pilot at the time was New UN Forces Cpt. Holks Benetosch.  YF-21-1 had a completely conventional control system, and was used to test the prototype FF-2450A engine, the aerodynamics of the prototype aircraft, and the stealthiness of operations with a fold booster.  It was the primary test aircraft until the BDI-based YF-21-2 was rolled out on 17 June 2039.

YF-21-2 was ferried to Eden by a Uraga-class space carrier.  On delivery, Guld Goa Bowman assumed the role of primary test pilot after two weeks spent conferring with NUNS Cpt. Benetosch on the progress of YF-21-1.  The reason a civilian like Guld was made the primary test pilot is because the introduction of the radical new control system was beyond the expertise of any existing pilot and Guld was considered the only one who understood the system well enough to operate it in testing despite the evident dangers of having the team's lead developer also serve in a potentially fatal capacity as test pilot.  The YF-21-2's BDI was specifically tuned to Guld's brainwaves for testing, so it was considered too dangerous to allow anyone else to operate it.  Testing went so well that it was considered to be progressing almost too smoothly, and with the YF-19 program at a standstill after the loss of the YF-19-1 in a testing accident, it's said that the General Galaxy team believed that they had the Next Main Fighter contract in the bag and that soldiers on the base were betting that General Galaxy's YF-21 would win in the end.

It's then briefly mentioned that what ultimately screwed the YF-21 out of what seemed a sure victory was that the BDI system's stability was dependent on the stability of the pilot, Guld Goa Bowman... 

The subsequent section "Fatal Error" gets into the circumstances of the Macross Plus OVA itself with the gunpod accident that disabled the YF-19-2 (on 6 February 2040).  It's said that the official reason cited for the accident was an issue with the ammunition management program resulting in the accidental explosion of the YF-19's gunpod.  The case is said to be officially resolved, but without a clear explanation for how the YF-19's gunpod came to be loaded with live rounds considering that the test plan only called for paint rounds.  It's conjectured, based on testimony and the loss of log files from the YF-21 shortly before the accident, that it was intentional sabotage on the part of Guld Goa Bowman.  (Which was the case in the OVA.)  General Galaxy knew that General Gomez, leading the investigation, was a part of General Higgins's pro-Ghostbird faction and lobbied to have the investigation dropped before they could be implicated, reasoning that if the Ghost X-9 became the next main fighter the YF-21 would still be adopted as manned support.

It's mentioned that, ultimately, uneasiness about the reliability of the BDI came about as a product of Guld's increasingly erratic behavior.  There is an interesting discussion there about the issues Guld was experiencing.  Master File rolls with the idea that Guld's issue was less psychological and more a consequence of his heritage.  The Zentradi are said to have heightened aggressive impulses as a part of their design, and some peace children born after the First Space War essentially suffered from a sort of impulse control disorder caused by their Zentradi genes.  It's said that, in the 2040s, this was treated with medication while the modern approach is gene therapy.  The belief that this innate characteristic common to the Zentradi was causing the unexpected behaviors from the BDI system was ultimately what scuttled plans to adopt the BDI on a production basis... though it's also mentioned the whole question was arguably academic, as the New UN Forces had decided to go with the Ghost X-9 by the time these problems were uncovered.

 

The next section deals with the Sharon Apple incident...

[Bolt]

On 9/4/2023 at 1:29 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Like the VF-19 book, the VF-22 book spends a fair amount of the introduction praising the VF-11 as an extremely capable multirole VF that was overwhelmingly superior to Zentradi battle pods one-on-one to the extent that the New UN Forces considered it unthinkable that they would lose in an even fight. 

Isamu sure made it look that way.

And so this VFMF writes in the Protodevlin and Vajra as further evidence to sponsor project Super Nova. Interesting point about the economy being a factor there. 

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's more detailed than Macross Chronicle's version, but if you discount the parts about the motivations behind Project Super Nova being phantom enemies and the Spica Shock, it's not exactly contradictory.  Ludmilla Blackwood is a non-canon character invented for Master File, but General Higgins's role as the #1 supporter of the Ghostbird project is a part of the official setting as is Guld's educational background and the nature of his pilot license.  Argus Selzer is also an official setting (mentioned only) character.

Much appreciated Seto! When you state it in that way, it does indeed work.

 

57 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm headed into a ten day "Death march" type release period, so I figured I'd relax and knock a bit more out before things go to pot.

So... when Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II finally gets down to the actual fighter itself... it kind of skips right to the prototype phase, mentioning in passing that the General Galaxy design team produced thirteen experimental testbeds (XVF-21) before completing the initial YF-21-1 prototype in early 2038.  The prototype was completed around three months ahead of Shinsei Industry's YF-19-1, and had its maiden flight on Earth at the General Galaxy headquarters before being sent to the New Edwards Test Flight Center over on Eden for evaluation.  Its test pilot at the time was New UN Forces Cpt. Holks Benetosch.  YF-21-1 had a completely conventional control system, and was used to test the prototype FF-2450A engine, the aerodynamics of the prototype aircraft, and the stealthiness of operations with a fold booster.  It was the primary test aircraft until the BDI-based YF-21-2 was rolled out on 17 June 2039.

YF-21-2 was ferried to Eden by a Uraga-class space carrier.  On delivery, Guld Goa Bowman assumed the role of primary test pilot after two weeks spent conferring with NUNS Cpt. Benetosch on the progress of YF-21-1.  The reason a civilian like Guld was made the primary test pilot is because the introduction of the radical new control system was beyond the expertise of any existing pilot and Guld was considered the only one who understood the system well enough to operate it in testing despite the evident dangers of having the team's lead developer also serve in a potentially fatal capacity as test pilot.  The YF-21-2's BDI was specifically tuned to Guld's brainwaves for testing, so it was considered too dangerous to allow anyone else to operate it.  Testing went so well that it was considered to be progressing almost too smoothly, and with the YF-19 program at a standstill after the loss of the YF-19-1 in a testing accident, it's said that the General Galaxy team believed that they had the Next Main Fighter contract in the bag and that soldiers on the base were betting that General Galaxy's YF-21 would win in the end.

I wonder: even if they had adopted the BDI system (and the BDS control system), wouldn't the side effects and consequences have come out sooner or later? Given enough instances of loss of control and/ or the system misinterpreting thoughts and acting on errant ones, that would have at at the least caused a number of possibly fatal (and humiliating for NUNS) situations for the Unity Government?

  

57 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's then briefly mentioned that what ultimately screwed the YF-21 out of what seemed a sure victory was that the BDI system's stability was dependent on the stability of the pilot, Guld Goa Bowman... 

The subsequent section "Fatal Error" gets into the circumstances of the Macross Plus OVA itself with the gunpod accident that disabled the YF-19-2 (on 6 February 2040).  It's said that the official reason cited for the accident was an issue with the ammunition management program resulting in the accidental explosion of the YF-19's gunpod.  The case is said to be officially resolved, but without a clear explanation for how the YF-19's gunpod came to be loaded with live rounds considering that the test plan only called for paint rounds.  It's conjectured, based on testimony and the loss of log files from the YF-21 shortly before the accident, that it was intentional sabotage on the part of Guld Goa Bowman.  (Which was the case in the OVA.)  General Galaxy knew that General Gomez, leading the investigation, was a part of General Higgins's pro-Ghostbird faction and lobbied to have the investigation dropped before they could be implicated, reasoning that if the Ghost X-9 became the next main fighter the YF-21 would still be adopted as manned support.

It's mentioned that, ultimately, uneasiness about the reliability of the BDI came about as a product of Guld's increasingly erratic behavior.  There is an interesting discussion there about the issues Guld was experiencing.  Master File rolls with the idea that Guld's issue was less psychological and more a consequence of his heritage.  The Zentradi are said to have heightened aggressive impulses as a part of their design, and some peace children born after the First Space War essentially suffered from a sort of impulse control disorder caused by their Zentradi genes.  It's said that, in the 2040s, this was treated with medication while the modern approach is gene therapy.  The belief that this innate characteristic common to the Zentradi was causing the unexpected behaviors from the BDI system was ultimately what scuttled plans to adopt the BDI on a production basis... though it's also mentioned the whole question was arguably academic, as the New UN Forces had decided to go with the Ghost X-9 by the time these problems were uncovered.

 

The next section deals with the Sharon Apple incident...

On a whole, it also makes me wonder if this incident, along with the Sharon Apple Incident, are contributing factors to the decentralization of the Unity Government?

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I wonder: even if they had adopted the BDI system (and the BDS control system), wouldn't the side effects and consequences have come out sooner or later? Given enough instances of loss of control and/ or the system misinterpreting thoughts and acting on errant ones, that would have at at the least caused a number of possibly fatal (and humiliating for NUNS) situations for the Unity Government?

Master File certainly seems to lean that direction... or at least, the at-the-time unsubstantiated fear that this problem would be widespread and affect Zentradi and part-Zentradi was used as part of the justification for passing on the YF-21 in favor of the X-9 Ghost.

 

10 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

  On a whole, it also makes me wonder if this incident, along with the Sharon Apple Incident, are contributing factors to the decentralization of the Unity Government?

That borders on an Obi-Wan Kenobi "Certain point of view".

The most doggedly literal interpretation would be that Project Super Nova was officially a response to the increasing frequency of armed incidents between emigrant populations and the central military including civil wars, rebellions, and anti-government terrorist activity.  A big part of the Advanced Variable Fighter concept involves making stealth attacks behind enemy lines to sever the chain of command and end conflicts with minimal casualties.  The fear that the advanced technology of the VF-19 and VF-22 might be used in an attack on Earth by those anti-government elements also spurred arms export restrictions that contributed to the development and deployment of the VF-171.

[TG Remix]

24 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Master File certainly seems to lean that direction... or at least, the at-the-time unsubstantiated fear that this problem would be widespread and affect Zentradi and part-Zentradi was used as part of the justification for passing on the YF-21 in favor of the X-9 Ghost.

Thinking about it more, in isolation Guld's gene/psychological issues work well enough in Plus. But further down the line we get Mylene, Ranka, Micheal, and Reina who are all partial Zentradi but not nearly have the same uncontrollable issues that he had. At least in my perspective, it was presented in Plus that all human/Zentradi hybrids are more likely to have that same "little problem." It is something I noticed in Plus and 7 where despite SDF humans and micloned-Zentradi are indistinguishable they always try to make them different or incompatible, like the instinctual fear Exsedol and the Macross 5 had for the Protodevlin.