Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[pengbuzz]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well... yes and no.

There is an old truism that no two ships of the same class are ever truly identical.  Ships develop their own individual quirks during construction as a matter of course, as well as thanks to many minor refinements and improvements made in the course of producing multiple ships of the same type.  SDF-02 Megaroad-01 was the first ship of her class and unique in the sense that, of all her sister ships, only she was manufactured by converting a pre-existing partially-completed Macross-class spaceframe from a battleship into an emigrant ship.  All of the later examples of the class were made from scratch as emigrant ships and differ from each other in little ways, but share the same general design.  The New UN Government built many Megaroad-class ships in the 2010s and 2020s.  The highest sequentially-numbered one mentioned is SDF-26 Megaroad-25, which were destroyed in an explosion at the factory satellite dock where they were being built.  However there are also several unnumbered ones that have appeared like the Odin II in the Macross Frontier short story "Kabuki Warbird" and the Odin IV in the dating sim Macross: True Love Song.  With the first emigrant fleet to use a New Macross-class emigrant ship being the 31st long-distance fleet, there may be 30 or more Megaroad-class ships sharing that same design.

This is seen particularly IRL in building carriers of the same class. Amongst the Nimitz class, length can vary as well as tonnage, with refinements altering the island (tower on the top) and the bow. With the new Ford class, this will be an eventuality as well.

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, high g-forces are nothing to sneeze at... and Valkyries are, if anything, more inclined to violent acceleration and turning g-forces than a conventional aircraft.

This brings up G-LOC ( Gravity induced Loss of Consciousness ), where blood is pushed from the brain into the extremities so much that the pilot blacks out. Needless to say, G-LOC can be fatal at low altitudes, where loss of consciousness at high speeds close to the ground are the last thing  a pilot wants. IRL, the Air Force and Navy use both the g-suit(with special trousers to compress the blood in the legs back up to the torso) and the M-1 Maneuver (flexing muscles in lower limbs to constrict blood flow back up to core/ torso).

More info:

https://goflightmedicine.com/2014/01/30/agsm/

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Admittedly, their heads should NOT be snapping around like that with the neck supports in the flight suits.  No pilot wants whiplash.

Or a broken neck, eh?

[JB0]

Wait a second, wait a second...

 

Before being rebuilt as the Megaroad, the SDF-2 wasn't intended as a colony ship, right? It was meant as another warship?

Then why the heck was it being built even bigger than the Macross, which was already so ludicrously oversized they had enough empty space to build a full training camp and functioning city inside it?! 

[pengbuzz]

16 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Wait a second, wait a second...

 

Before being rebuilt as the Megaroad, the SDF-2 wasn't intended as a colony ship, right? It was meant as another warship?

Then why the heck was it being built even bigger than the Macross, which was already so ludicrously oversized they had enough empty space to build a full training camp and functioning city inside it?! 

So they could put Burger King in there as well.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, JB0 said:

Wait a second, wait a second...

 

Before being rebuilt as the Megaroad, the SDF-2 wasn't intended as a colony ship, right? It was meant as another warship?

Then why the heck was it being built even bigger than the Macross, which was already so ludicrously oversized they had enough empty space to build a full training camp and functioning city inside it?! 

An excellent question we don't have a completely clear answer for.

It's known that Earth had some issues replicating the alien overtechnology and that may have played a role in its design.  It's mentioned in Macross: Perfect Memory that the SDF-2 was originally designed for long-range, long-term solo operations.  The extra size may have been necessary to include the concessions to longer-term operations.

[Seto Kaiba]

Also, my copies of the VF-31AX Master File rolled in today.

Gonna review those after work.

One thing I did note is that the specs in the preview image are NOT the same as the ones in the final book.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

An excellent question we don't have a completely clear answer for.

It's known that Earth had some issues replicating the alien overtechnology and that may have played a role in its design.  It's mentioned in Macross: Perfect Memory that the SDF-2 was originally designed for long-range, long-term solo operations.  The extra size may have been necessary to include the concessions to longer-term operations.

They may have opted for a more robust parts replication system than what was on the original SDF-1, as well as more food  and weapon stores.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 12/15/2022 at 7:53 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

So, in a lull between meetings I flipped thru to the final version of this page and it's almost exactly the same:

• The page title now reads "VF-31AX/X Kairos Plus"
• The mass has been revised downward to 7,342kg (-908kg)
• The ISC buffer has been revised upwards to 30.0G (+2.0G)
• The main engine thrust has been revised upwards to 1,715kN/ea (+70kN/ea)

So, how this compares to the VF-31A Kairos and VF-31 Siegfried...

The Siegfried's T/W ratio is 44.854 and the Kairos's T/W ratio is 40.664.  The mass reduction played the most significant role here, bringing the Kairos Plus's base T/W to 47.637, a bit higher than the Siegfried's despite having a significantly less powerful engine.  The ISC is comparable to the YF-29's, though not as good as the current frontrunner in the Sv-262 at 30.5G.

Skimming to see if I can find the spec for the FWS.

[Bolt]

It sounds like they "improved " it's performance.. someone noticed it wasn't so hot compared to the original VF-31..? Personally, I don't think any specs should be as good as the YF-29. But they don't take my calls over there..

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

It sounds like they "improved " it's performance.. someone noticed it wasn't so hot compared to the original VF-31..? Personally, I don't think any specs should be as good as the YF-29. But they don't take my calls over there..

It's interesting that the main engines are still noticeably worse than the Siegfried's... the performance difference is mainly in the mass reduction.

 

[azrael]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:36 PM, azrael said:

So the best way to describe a VF-31AX is it's a later-block VF-31A with stuff (a Fold Wave System) stapled on it.

That's what I'm sticking with.

Yep. Still sticking with this ☝️.
Less mass? They took out some things they didn't need to make room for the Fold-Wave system. Slightly better thrust? Engine tweak (singular). ICS improvement? Fold-wave installation.

[Seto Kaiba]

So... on a skim of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus, here are some points of interest/

Also, WTF... this book is actually... good?  Like, there's actual effort on display here.  Where the hell was effort like this in making the actual film?

• Its in-universe publication date is in late 2085, with a foreword dated July 2085.
• The book's Development History section broadly aligns with official material and identifies the Surya Aerospace VF-31 Kairos and Xaos Valkyrie Works VF-31 custom "Siegfried" as 5th Generation, rather than 6th Generation.
• It echoes the Blu-ray extra features from the Macross Delta TV anime in semi-formally classifying the VF-31 Siegfried custom as 5.5th Generation.
• Shinsei Industry and LAI's YF-29 Durandal and YF-30 Chronos are presented as the only true 6th Generation Valkyries available.  It's noted that this is a bit of a technicality, since neither design can be approved for mass-production due to the scarcity of the essential ultra-high purity fold quartz that remains beyond humanity's ability to synthesize.
• As in the previous VF-31 Master File, the VF-31S is presented as though it were an alternate low-volume production version of the VF-31 rather than as the unique ace custom aircraft it was in Macross Delta.
• The VF-31AX is still presented as an ad hoc field repair, but an alternate explanation of where the improvements came from is presented.  Rather than being a combination of Kairos and Siegfried parts, the upgrade components are said to have been prototype hardware diverted from an experimental 6th Generation Valkyrie program that spun off from the VF-31 Siegfried and carried the informal designation VF-31X at that early phase in its development.  It was apparently an attempt to make an economical and mass-production viable 6th Generation VF.
• It's said that the New UN Forces ordered 24 YF-29s for testing after the events of Macross Frontier, but the scarcity of adequate fold quartz made production so slow that only a few aircraft could be completed per year and the military gave up in disgust.
• As to where they got the parts, the Macross Gigasion was carrying the prototype X parts when it arrived on Windermere IV and due to the emergency opted to use the X parts to perform field repairs to the badly-damaged VF-31 Siegfrieds of Delta Flight.
• It's mentioned that the Kairos Plus in the movie partially adopted the X-type's armor and wing structure, but omitted other features like a third and fourth engine.  
• Apparently the remodeling of the four VF-31 Siegfrieds into the Kairos Plus using the X-type parts was so rushed and so poorly done that the Fold Wave Systems suffered an unrecoverable failure after the battle and the aircraft had to essentially be dismantled.  A member of the VF-31X development team aboard the Gigasion apparently requested that it be called "Kairos Plus"to prevent the Defense Department from associating it with the VF-31X and that this request is the reason it is incorrectly believed to be based on the VF-31A.
• Dr. Gadget M. Chiba published a paper on Unified Fold Field Theory in 2051.
• The new Multipurpose Container unit in the AX type has a large beam gunpod and a small laser cannon meant for rear-facing defense.  The bulk of the pack's body is a huge energy capacitor ensuring an independent power supply for both weapons while mounted.
• The railguns were upgraded to 30mm.
• The new gunpod is designated LU-22A.  There's mention that it's a multipurpose housing meant to accept either a beam weapon or hard round-firing railgun, since its manufacturer faced complaints that the LU-18 beam gunpod used by the VF-31A faced attenuation problems in atmospheric service.  They also describe the ammunition used as a kind of explosive battery that produces a huge amount of energy via the detonation of an electrolyte using a high explosive, which generates the power for the railgun.  (Apparently this has the downside that the gas byproducts of the detonation are incredibly caustic and require ventilation measures.
• The model of Ghost used by Xaos in the film is named "Effigia", from the Greek for "Ghost".  

 

3 minutes ago, azrael said:

Yep. Still sticking with this ☝️.
Less mass? They took out some things they didn't need to make room for the Fold-Wave system. Slightly better thrust? Engine tweak (singular). ICS improvement? Fold-wave installation.

In official terms, it's probably still right.

In the Master File's description, it's a Siegfried that's gotten some materials upgrades and compensated for lower quality fold quartz with quantity.

[NightmarePlus]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Its in-universe publication date is in late 2085, with a foreword dated July 2085.

Huh that's one heck of a time jump

[Seto Kaiba]

9 minutes ago, NightmarePlus said:

Huh that's one heck of a time jump

It's pretty typical for Master File, TBH.

Each volume is presented as an in-universe civilian mass market publication about the development history, technology, and operational history of a specific model of VF.  As such, all of them are dated well after the events of the Macross series that first introduced them so that there's not only history to talk about but a reasonable period in which some records of their development and operation could be made public.

For example, the first VF-1 Valkyrie Master File bears an in-universe publication date of 2020.  The second is dated 2030.  The third is dated 2047.  The VF-0 book's dated 2040 after a VF-0 was reconstructed from wreckage found at Edwards AFB to commemorate the Unification Wars.  The VF-19 book's dated 2050, after the events of Plus and 7 and the VF-22 book's dated 2063.  The VF-25 book's dated 2065, so there are a few years of operating history after it was formally adopted by the military.  And so on and so forth.

[twich]

So if I am ready the variable fighter master file for the VF-31AX Kairos Plus right. The SV-303 has engines that exceed the YF-29 in raw capability. 2345kN x2 plus 1970kN x2. Was this an attempt to make an unmanned variable fighter that could, in theory, compete with the YF-29? I cannot wait for more translations of the text, and what the SV-300 is!

Twich

[Bolt]

5 minutes ago, twich said:

The SV-303 has engines that exceed the YF-29 in raw capability.

How can anything have more powerful engines than the YF-29..? If so, that 303 must have quite a sturdy airframe.

 

7 minutes ago, twich said:

Was this an attempt to make an unmanned variable fighter that could, in theory, compete with the YF-29?

I wonder how much is really known about the YF-29 by other corporations and immigrant fleets, in universe. Or even of its existence.

[Seto Kaiba]

Some other interesting revelations from the VF-31AX Master File concerning the YF-29 Durandal.

It alleges the existence of three separate and mutually exclusive YF-29 specifications:

• YF-29A - The Macross Frontier fleet's YF-29 seen in Macross Frontier: the Wings of Farewell.  This version is the original YF-29 specification and has the highest performance of the three due to the fleet having acquired fold quartz of the highest purity during the Vajra conflict by harvesting Vajra carcasses.  Only one unit is believed to exist, that being the YF-29 No.1 prototype (Alto's YF-29 from the movie) which was repaired after being damaged in the conflict.
• YF-29B - Believed to be a copy of the YF-29A Durandal produced on/by Earth.  Codenamed "Perceval".  With no reports that Earth ever recovered any fold quartz approaching the size and quality of that recovered by the Macross Frontier fleet, it is believed to have inferior performance to the YF-29A.  
  Note: Macross Chronicle refers to the YF-29B's produced on Uroboros as "a state-of-the-art aircraft that improves upon the YF-29 Durendal", implying better performance not worse.
• YF-29C - An attempt to develop a mass production-worthy YF-29 by Earth(?) which attempted to address the production roadblock of fold quartz scarcity through the use of fold carbon of the very highest purity and quality.  Despite using the very best technology to synthesize fold carbon and the assistance of a scouted jeweler to handpick fold carbon experimentally produced for it, the fold wave generation performance is only 1% of what the YF-29A can achieve.  Operated under the jurisdiction of Apollo Base test flight center on Luna.

Master File declines to explain how, precisely, Max got ahold of a YF-29.  It alleges that Lady M scouted him specifically to liaise with the New UN Forces, and remarks that his YF-29 corresponds to the YF-29B type.

[Bolt]

18 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Despite using the very best technology to synthesize fold carbon and the assistance of a scouted jeweler to handpick fold carbon experimentally produced for it, the fold wave generation performance is only 1% of what the YF-29A can achieve.

That's not too impressive for such an expensive prototype. 

 

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Macross Frontier fleet's YF-29 seen in Macross Frontier: the Wings of Farewell.  This version is the original YF-29 specification and has the highest performance of the three due to the fleet having acquired fold quartz of the highest purity during the Vajra conflict

So Frontier has the ultimate YF-29. I wonder who pilots it now? Isamu..? He is an SMS pilot. Or do they keep it shiny in the box for Kabuki boy.. It's also interesting to note that the VF-27 didn't do too shabby against the YF-29. With some cyber assistance..

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, twich said:

So if I am ready the variable fighter master file for the VF-31AX Kairos Plus right. The SV-303 has engines that exceed the YF-29 in raw capability. 2345kN x2 plus 1970kN x2. Was this an attempt to make an unmanned variable fighter that could, in theory, compete with the YF-29? I cannot wait for more translations of the text, and what the SV-300 is!

Twich

All in all, the information is mostly as expected.

Designed by the SV Works and manufactured by the Epsilon Foundation subsidiary Dian Cecht.  Its physical particulars are listed as unknown.

The control system is as we saw in the film, a Sharon Apple-derived autonomous advanced quantum AI computer.

Interestingly, it's noted as having a separate/onboard airframe control computer setup... two Brunhilde II-type airframe control AIs.  Presumably that means it's using ARIEL II or the semi-official ARIEL III, since Brunhilde was the model of ARIEL II system used in the YF-25, VF-25, and YF-30, and probably others.

The main engine is a modification of the FF-2999/FC2 Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine used by the Sv-262 Draken III with an estimated maximum thrust of 2,346kN (+20% output improvement) resulting from a specification change made by Dian Cecht to improve thrust and engine responsiveness.  It's noted that this change reduces engine life.  

The sub-engine is a modification of the FF-3003J/FC1 Stage II thermonuclear reaction ramjet/turbine composite engine.  Poss. a typo, listed thrust is 1,970kN (+34% improvement).

It's noted to have a "Twin Quartz Drive" (a derivative or other name for a Fold Reheat) based on the (Windermere IV) Royal Aviation Factory design with improved operating time compared to the Sv-262's.

It's noted to lack an active stealth system altogether.  Its "Mirage Package Composite Armor" combines the functions of energy conversion armor and a fold wave transmission and reception antenna that also provides the fighter with high (passive) stealth performance.  (Acts as fold wave-absorbent material, I guess?)

 

55 minutes ago, Bolt said:

How can anything have more powerful engines than the YF-29..? If so, that 303 must have quite a sturdy airframe.

Well, if you don't care about the lifespan of the parts... the Sv-303 spec in Master File claims that engine life has decreased as a result of improving the output.

Overtuning an engine is the machine equivalent of "Cast from Hit Points"... as long as you're not worried about reducing its lifespan and increasing its maintenance requirements, you can generally exceed the rated output by a good amount before it stops being an engine and starts being a smoke machine or a rapidly-expanding collection of shrapnel.

 

55 minutes ago, Bolt said:

I wonder how much is really known about the YF-29 by other corporations and immigrant fleets, in universe. Or even of its existence.

Quite a bit, it would seem.

We know that the Macross Frontier fleet was required by law to make disclosures of the YF-29's design, specifications, and new technologies to the New UN Government.  That does appear to have happened promptly too, since the first appearance of a New UN Spacy-use YF-29 was in 2060, barely a year after the events of Macross Frontier.  In Macross 30, 815th Independent Squadron "Havamal" of the NUNS VF-X Special Forces had used its clout on the remote planet of Uroboros to produce several YF-29s for its ace pilots.  That was where the YF-29B Perceval came from, as well as the YF-29s for Ozma and Isamu. 

It would not have been possible to build the YF-30 without the aforementioned disclosures, since the YF-30's Fold Dimensional Resonance system is derived from the YF-29's Fold Wave System.  Likewise, Xaos Valkyrie Works's VF-31 Siegfried customs incorporate technology from the YF-29 in the form of their economized/simplified Fold Wave System which was later improved on the VF-31AX Kairos Plus.

Then, of course, there's Master File's not-exactly-official take in which the YF-29 is public knowledge as of the 2060s and there were apparently not only several attempts to make a mass production-ready version (see the above about the YF-29B and YF-29C), the failure of those attempts spawned the program (VF-31X) that would ultimately originate the parts that went into the VF-31AX during their improvised repair/upgrade.

 

5 minutes ago, Bolt said:

That's not too impressive for such an expensive prototype. 

Indeed.  It's indicated earlier in the book that the New UN Government's attempts to develop a viable 6th Generation Main VF have effectively hit a wall due to the requirement for ultra-high purity fold quartz.

As of 2085 in Master File's version of history, humanity still has not discovered a way to produce artificial fold quartz.  5th Generation VFs can get by using the fold quartz found in former Vajra nests and Protoculture ruins, and the quality of humanity's synthetic fold carbon continues to improve, but without a reliable way to obtain ultra-high purity large fold quartz there is no way to proceed with mass production of any 6th Generation VF design.  This newest Master File attempts to connect the Siegfried and the Master File original "VF-31X" to the search for a way to produce 6th Generation performance using less, and less pure, fold quartz.  It apparently did not work, but bless 'em for trying.

 

5 minutes ago, Bolt said:

So Frontier has the ultimate YF-29. I wonder who pilots it now? Isamu..? He is an SMS pilot. Or do they keep it shiny in the box for Kabuki boy.. It's also interesting to note that the VF-27 didn't do too shabby against the YF-29. With some cyber assistance..

They don't say, but the way it's phrased it sounds like it's one-of-a-kind and effectively impossible to replicate.

[Bolt]

7 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That was where the YF-29B Perceval came from, as well as the YF-29s for Ozma and Isamu. 

I didn't realize Ozoma and Isamu's YF-29's were anything more than in game options for the sake of cool. Are they actually part of the M30 story or VFMF "canon".?

Edited January 14, 2023 by Bolt

[Seto Kaiba]

37 minutes ago, Bolt said:

I didn't realize Ozoma and Isamu's YF-29's were anything more than in game options for the sake of cool. Are they actually part of the M30 story or VFMF "canon".?

Yes, they're part of the Macross 30 story.

That said, it wouldn't exactly be unfair to characterize Ozma's late-game upgrade from his Macross Frontier VF-25S to an original YF-29 as "for the sake of cool".  It was pretty much an afterthought or a "throw it in".  Isamu's, however, was important enough that it got its own cutscene where he receives it from a (mostly) Havamal-controlled Sharon Apple.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[snakerbot]

38 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

FF-3003J/FC1 Stage II thermonuclear reaction ramjet/turbine composite engine.  Poss. a typo, listed thrust is 1,970kN (+34% improvement).

The current Macross Compendium page for the YF-29 lists the thrust of the FF-3003J/FC1 engines as "in space, maximum thrust of 1,470 KN [1,970 KN]". Going back through the revision history of that page, internet searches, and Sketchley's translations, it looks like the 1,970 KN value was the original number, published with the Bandai 1/100 model kit, and the 1,470 kN value came later with the Official Complete Book - Theatrical Macross F ~Wings of Goodbye~ and was later repeated in Macross Chronicle. So there is some provenance for 1,970 KN. The engine is described as being able to increase its thrust by switching to high-speed mode in an atmosphere, so a possible, albeit unofficial, head-canony way of explaining it would be to say the 1,470 KN is in space and 1,970 KN in atmosphere.

[Seto Kaiba]

44 minutes ago, snakerbot said:

The current Macross Compendium page for the YF-29 lists the thrust of the FF-3003J/FC1 engines as "in space, maximum thrust of 1,470 KN [1,970 KN]". Going back through the revision history of that page, internet searches, and Sketchley's translations, it looks like the 1,970 KN value was the original number, published with the Bandai 1/100 model kit, and the 1,470 kN value came later with the Official Complete Book - Theatrical Macross F ~Wings of Goodbye~ and was later repeated in Macross Chronicle.

That's why I said it's probably a typo... the initial spec for the YF-29 had different engine outputs and a much heavier weight than the official spec that it eventually settled on.

There've been a couple cases with Master File citing old/obsolete or just plain incorrect info by mistake... like the VF-19 engine outputs for the F/S type.

 

44 minutes ago, snakerbot said:

The engine is described as being able to increase its thrust by switching to high-speed mode in an atmosphere, so a possible, albeit unofficial, head-canony way of explaining it would be to say the 1,470 KN is in space and 1,970 KN in atmosphere.

The sticking point here would be that the 1,970kN listed is explicitly "maximum thrust in space" for the Sv-303.

On the off chance it's not an error, then it'd almost certainly be the result of Dian Cecht's engineers tweaking the design of the FF-3003J/FC1 sub-engines the same way they did the FF-2999/FC2 main engines: increasing the maximum output to the point that it reduces the engine's operational lifespan.

[Bolt]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yes, they're part of the Macross 30 story.

That said, it wouldn't exactly be unfair to characterize Ozma's late-game upgrade from his Macross Frontier VF-25S to an original YF-29 as "for the sake of cool".  It was pretty much an afterthought or a "throw it in".  Isamu's, however, was important enough that it got its own cutscene where he receives it from a (mostly) Havamal-controlled Sharon Apple.

So were those two YF-29's lost ? Or are they lurking around somewhere?

[Seto Kaiba]

47 minutes ago, Bolt said:

So were those two YF-29's lost ? Or are they lurking around somewhere?

Dunno, Macross 30 ends with the whole timey-wimey mess getting straightened out.  I honestly don't recall if the novel version says what happens to the new mecha given to the time displaced folks.

[Bolt]

46 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Dunno, Macross 30 ends with the whole timey-wimey mess getting straightened out.  I honestly don't recall if the novel version says what happens to the new mecha given to the time displaced folks.

Sounds like they got lost..in time. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Bolt

[twich]

 I cannot wait for more translations of the text, and what the SV-300 is!

Seto, does the Master File give specs or more information about either the specs of the VF-31X (supposed to be a 6th Gen attempt building on the VF-31)?

Also, what kind of T/W ratio does the SV-303 boast? I can’t imagine that it is all that heavy, despite the 4 engines. No cockpit of ISC needed for an unmanned Variable Fighter.

Twich

Edited January 15, 2023 by twich

[Seto Kaiba]

53 minutes ago, twich said:

 I cannot wait for more translations of the text, and what the SV-300 is!

I'll be poking at it a fair bit over the long weekend.  

I'm blown away by how much better this book is than the previous VF-31 book... or, really, anything else Macross Delta.  WHERE WAS THIS LOVE WHEN THE SHOWS WERE BEING MADE?!

 

53 minutes ago, twich said:

Seto, does the Master File give specs or more information about either the specs of the VF-31X (supposed to be a 6th Gen attempt building on the VF-31)?

In an indirect manner, since the upgrades that went into the VF-31AX Kairos Plus from the Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! movie were (in Master File's version) appropriated from the VF-31X parts that were in storage aboard the Macross Gigasion.  

From what I have read thus far - and this understanding may change as I translate more of the book - apart from the piecemeal application of the improved armor and other materials the key difference is the VF-31X has wingtip engines similar to the YF-29's.  It was noted that, due to the difficulty of adjusting the airframe control AI, the Xaos crew omitted the extra engines in the upgrade process to get the job done faster.

 

53 minutes ago, twich said:

Also, what kind of T/W ratio does the SV-303 boast? I can’t imagine that it is all that heavy, despite the 4 engines. No cockpit of ISC needed for an unmanned Variable Fighter.

Unfortunately, we lack a critical factor to determine that... the stats provided lack the basic physical parameters like dimensions and weight.  So we're missing a key piece of the whole equation... the mass in the thrust-to-weight ratio.

((2346kN*2)+(1970kN*2))/(? * 9.807m/s^2)

If we were to plug in the masses of various 5th Gen Valkyries just for comparison's sake... this is a fighter with a T/W ratio potentially in excess of 100.  With the VF-31J's mass it's 103.  The Sv-262's mass would put it at 89.724.  Even if we correct for the wrong output power on the FF-3003J/FC1, it's still almost 80!  If we assume it weighs as much as the heaviest modern Valkyrie, it's just shy of 50 with the corrected-for engine output.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[twich]

I think that by the animation during the movie, the Sv-303 is at least as big as the VF-31, but more than likely the same size as the VF-27.  While it would have less mass due to the lack of cockpit, life support, ICS for pilot, I would think that they would use that available space for extra fuel, since the SV-303 has 4 very powerful engines.  

Twich

[aurance]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Some other interesting revelations from the VF-31AX Master File concerning the YF-29 Durandal.

It alleges the existence of three separate and mutually exclusive YF-29 specifications:

• YF-29A - The Macross Frontier fleet's YF-29 seen in Macross Frontier: the Wings of Farewell.  This version is the original YF-29 specification and has the highest performance of the three due to the fleet having acquired fold quartz of the highest purity during the Vajra conflict by harvesting Vajra carcasses.  Only one unit is believed to exist, that being the YF-29 No.1 prototype (Alto's YF-29 from the movie) which was repaired after being damaged in the conflict.
• YF-29B - Believed to be a copy of the YF-29A Durandal produced on/by Earth.  Codenamed "Perceval".  With no reports that Earth ever recovered any fold quartz approaching the size and quality of that recovered by the Macross Frontier fleet, it is believed to have inferior performance to the YF-29A.  
  Note: Macross Chronicle refers to the YF-29B's produced on Uroboros as "a state-of-the-art aircraft that improves upon the YF-29 Durendal", implying better performance not worse.
• YF-29C - An attempt to develop a mass production-worthy YF-29 by Earth(?) which attempted to address the production roadblock of fold quartz scarcity through the use of fold carbon of the very highest purity and quality.  Despite using the very best technology to synthesize fold carbon and the assistance of a scouted jeweler to handpick fold carbon experimentally produced for it, the fold wave generation performance is only 1% of what the YF-29A can achieve.  Operated under the jurisdiction of Apollo Base test flight center on Luna.

Master File declines to explain how, precisely, Max got ahold of a YF-29.  It alleges that Lady M scouted him specifically to liaise with the New UN Forces, and remarks that his YF-29 corresponds to the YF-29B type.

Why would they do B and C if the federal Vf-24 is so uber presumably without the inclusion of fold crystals?

[twich]

19 minutes ago, aurance said:

Why would they do B and C if the federal Vf-24 is so uber presumably without the inclusion of fold crystals?

This thought also crossed my mind, or more specifically what New Variable Fighter are they testing?

I know in the past, it has been proposed that the YF-29 as seen flown by Alto in the second Macross Frontier movie is about equal, performance wise, to the standard VF-24A used by Earth. Now with upgrades and block manufacturing changes, I wonder what the present Earth spec VF-24B or C model would look like? Or are we on the YF-36Monkeyfart Plus!  Guess we will have to wait for the next series. Delta came out in ‘16, which was around 4 years after the last Frontier movie. So, we only have a couple more years to wait then! Please Mr. Kawamori! Show us those designs!
Twich

[twich]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'll be poking at it a fair bit over the long weekend.  

I'm blown away by how much better this book is than the previous VF-31 book... or, really, anything else Macross Delta.  WHERE WAS THIS LOVE WHEN THE SHOWS WERE BEING MADE?!

 

In an indirect manner, since the upgrades that went into the VF-31AX Kairos Plus from the Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! movie were (in Master File's version) appropriated from the VF-31X parts that were in storage aboard the Macross Gigasion.  

From what I have read thus far - and this understanding may change as I translate more of the book - apart from the piecemeal application of the improved armor and other materials the key difference is the VF-31X has wingtip engines similar to the YF-29's.  It was noted that, due to the difficulty of adjusting the airframe control AI, the Xaos crew omitted the extra engines in the upgrade process to get the job done faster.

 

Unfortunately, we lack a critical factor to determine that... the stats provided lack the basic physical parameters like dimensions and weight.  So we're missing a key piece of the whole equation... the mass in the thrust-to-weight ratio.

((2346kN*2)+(1970kN*2))/(? * 9.807m/s^2)

If we were to plug in the masses of various 5th Gen Valkyries just for comparison's sake... this is a fighter with a T/W ratio potentially in excess of 100.  With the VF-31J's mass it's 103.  The Sv-262's mass would put it at 89.724.  Even if we correct for the wrong output power on the FF-3003J/FC1, it's still almost 80!  If we assume it weighs as much as the heaviest modern Valkyrie, it's just shy of 50 with the corrected-for engine output.

I recall that while flipping through the book, it showed a VF-31 body with basically YF-29 wings and wingtip engines, of course, I could do no more than say Cool! As I don’t read Japanese.

it is a bit baffling to think that a Variable Fighter could have a 100/1 thrust to weight ratio. I cannot wait for your thoughts when you have had a chance to read through the book.

Twich

[aurance]

7 hours ago, twich said:

I recall that while flipping through the book, it showed a VF-31 body with basically YF-29 wings and wingtip engines, of course, I could do no more than say Cool! As I don’t read Japanese.

it is a bit baffling to think that a Variable Fighter could have a 100/1 thrust to weight ratio. I cannot wait for your thoughts when you have had a chance to read through the book.

Twich

Could you share a picture of this if able?

[Bolt]

It's interesting to note that Max showed up in a YF-29, rather than a VF-24. Supposedly, he's flying the most rare, most performance enhanced VF(YF) currently in existence. I find it hard to believe the average VF-24 can out perform the YF-29. Of course we don't know anything about the VF-24, other than "it's a thing". Another interesting point about Max showing up in a YF-29, is that it is a known VF and we instantly recognize it. Also Bandai's gets to sell us more of those. Which may have had something to do with why Max shows up in a YF-29, rather than the unknown VF-24.

[aurance]

12 minutes ago, Bolt said:

It's interesting to note that Max showed up in a YF-29, rather than a VF-24. Supposedly, he's flying the most rare, most performance enhanced VF(YF) currently in existence. I find it hard to believe the average VF-24 can out perform the YF-29. Of course we don't know anything about the VF-24, other than "it's a thing". Another interesting point about Max showing up in a YF-29, is that it is a known VF and we instantly recognize it. Also Bandai's gets to sell us more of those. Which may have had something to do with why Max shows up in a YF-29, rather than the unknown VF-24.

Me too. I conjecture that the intent was that the YF-29 is suppose to look and be the uber fighter, but someone wrote a note about the VF-24 in a publication and on-screen intent and written fact don’t match up. This happens a lot, especially in Delta.

Edited January 15, 2023 by aurance

[snakerbot]

IIRC, the YF-29 was the subject of some in-universe speculation that it was an attempt at matching or exceeding the performance of Earth's VF-24.

That said, yes, the reason Max got one was instead of a VF-24 is absolutely because they already had the CD model of it from the second Frontier movie and Bandai had the molds to make it already, and neither a new CG model or new toy was needed.