Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, twich said:

So, I am curious about your statement....how is a VF-31 Siegfried on par with a VF-27?  I would think that with the 4 engines, the prerequisite that it has to be piloted by an android and the fact that all the weapons are beam based, with a huge beam cannon/grenade gunpod as its main weapon, along with 2 sets of beam guns of various size, how is a VF-31 on par?  I guess that if I think about it, the Fold Wave system could be a boost to the performance of the VF-31, but isnt it only a 15% increase in thrust from the Fold Wave System?

One thing to remember is that all engines are not created equal... and the engines are a significant portion of the aircraft's mass.

True, the VF-27 has four engines but each of those engines is individually a fair bit less powerful than one of the detuned YF-30 engines used in the VF-31 Siegfried.  It has about 47% more thrust to work with than the unboosted VF-31 Siegfried, but it also weighs about 42% more because of those extra engines.  The end result is the VF-27 has a thrust-to-weight ratio of about 46.49335 while the VF-31 Siegfried is only slightly lower at 44.854 without its Fold Wave System active.  That's not even a 4% difference.  With its Fold Wave System on and operating, its output increases 15%.  That might not sound like a lot, but at the baseline level we're talking about here that increases the total combined thrust of the engines by 562kN.  That's more than the maximum output of a VF-19A's FF-2200 thermonuclear reaction burst turbine, and pushes the output of the individual FF-3001/FC2 engines to slightly over the tuning used on the YF-30 (2,156kN vs 2,110kN).  That increase puts the VF-31 Siegfried's T/W ratio at 51.582, 10.9% higher than the VF-27's.

It's got a better ISC than the VF-27 does too, rated for 29.5G rather than 27.5G, though it seems a safe bet there are also some limiters in place to protect the pilot in normal operation and the ISC is likely boosted by the Fold Wave System as well.

Its gunpod may lack the punch of the VF-27's massive one that requires 3+ engines to operate, but it has a lot more operational versatility than the VF-27 which is almost exclusively a dogfighter.

[Seto Kaiba]

As a relevant aside to the above, one of the reasons that the VF-31AX Kairos Plus spec in Master File is that its baseline performance is significantly lower than the Siegfried's and the impact that has on the boosted performance.

Essentially, the Kairos Plus may be 275kg lighter but it's working with 12.26% less output than the unboosted Siegfried.  In order to match the Siegfried's boosted performance, never mind exceed it, the output of the Fold Wave System would have to almost double from +15% to +26.85%.  Even then, because Xaos's Fold Wave System cannot self-activate, the end result is a fighter that's measurably worse than the Siegfried the vast majority of the time.

[pengbuzz]

1 minute ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As a relevant aside to the above, one of the reasons that the VF-31AX Kairos Plus spec in Master File is that its baseline performance is significantly lower than the Siegfried's and the impact that has on the boosted performance.

Essentially, the Kairos Plus may be 275kg lighter but it's working with 12.26% less output than the unboosted Siegfried.  In order to match the Siegfried's boosted performance, never mind exceed it, the output of the Fold Wave System would have to almost double from +15% to +26.85%.  Even then, because Xaos's Fold Wave System cannot self-activate, the end result is a fighter that's measurably worse than the Siegfried the vast majority of the time.

So it's not just down to base specs per se, but what the fighter's intended combat role(s) are as well, am I correct?

[Bolt]

So here's a question that just came to mind. While drooling over Tenjin's box art for the VF-0B , I noticed a few things i had not really paid attention to before. Firstly the "Space Proving Wing" on the side thrusters/legs. Does that indicate this is a proof of concept model ? Or prototype? Secondly, the gun pod says UN Spacy. I missed that part before, I guess. I don't remember UNSpacy being formed already, at that point of the story. I assumed that came later after the SDF-1 crashed in the South Pacific. I'm sure If i go back and watch Zero, I'll probably see UN Spacy stenciled everywhere. Lol. 

[Seto Kaiba]

36 minutes ago, Bolt said:

So here's a question that just came to mind. While drooling over Tenjin's box art for the VF-0B , I noticed a few things i had not really paid attention to before.

An understandable reason to drool.

 

36 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Firstly the "Space Proving Wing" on the side thrusters/legs. Does that indicate this is a proof of concept model ? Or prototype?

By definition, all VF-0s are proof-of-concept models.  They were built to evaluate the Variable Fighter concept and various technologies being developed for the VF-1.

The "Space Proving Wing" markings probably mean that specific aircraft was one of the few outfitted for space operations... probably equipped with either the QF-3000E Ghost's FF-1999 initial type thermonuclear reaction engine or an early trial production version of the VF-1's FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction engine.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix doesn't feature that Space Proving Wing, but offers a broadly analogous unit in the 55th Development Experimental Wing Orbital Weapon Test Squadron AKA the SVX-12 "Space Fighters".  That unit used a handful of VF-0's retrofitted with the Ghost's FF-1999 engine to carry out testing of the VF-0 and Variable Fighters overall in orbital space.

 

36 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Secondly, the gun pod says UN Spacy. I missed that part before, I guess. I don't remember UNSpacy being formed already, at that point of the story. I assumed that came later after the SDF-1 crashed in the South Pacific. I'm sure If i go back and watch Zero, I'll probably see UN Spacy stenciled everywhere. Lol. 

The UN Spacy was established in March 2003.  The crash of the ship that would become the SDF-1 occurred in July 1999.

You'll see it basically everywhere in Macross Zero, which is set in July 2008.

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

So it's not just down to base specs per se, but what the fighter's intended combat role(s) are as well, am I correct?

Overspecialization is inherently limiting, yeah.

Perhaps the clearest demonstration of that fact of life in Macross can be found in the design of the Sv-262 Draken III.  The Kingdom of the Wind's Aerial Knights went all-in on a high-performance atmospheric dogfighter to fit their organization's professional ethos and then ran into a number of problems because their new main fighters lacked the endurance for protracted space engagements despite space being their enemy's favored operating environment and could only engage at visual ranges against an enemy who had vastly superior numbers, training, and far more experience.  As soon as Heinz and his fold songs are out of the picture, we see the Aerial Knights in their shiny new Drakens getting bodied by local NUNS troops using twenty year old previous-gen fighters.

[Bolt]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

By definition, all VF-0s are proof-of-concept models.  They were built to evaluate the Variable Fighter concept and various technologies being developed for the VF-1.

I didn't realize that. Although maybe that's splitting hairs. The VF-0 was also being used as a main fighter, was it not? Not just a trainer. 

 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The UN Spacy was established in March 2003.  The crash of the ship that would become the SDF-1 occurred in July 1999.

You'll see it basically everywhere in Macross Zero, which is set in July 2008.

Wow. I need to reset my Macross calendar of events..

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

I didn't realize that. Although maybe that's splitting hairs. The VF-0 was also being used as a main fighter, was it not? Not just a trainer. 

Sort of.

Unlike the Anti-Unification Alliance's SV-51, the VF-0 was not developed with live combat in mind.  It was, in development terms, a "mule" vehicle built out of available "off-the-shelf" and/or custom fabricated prototype parts intended to evaluate technologies during the course of development on an actual vehicle.  Master File alleges that there were several VF-0 phases that started out as modified F-14s and gradually developed into the completed craft we saw in Macross Zero.  The completed VF-0s we saw in Macross Zero were pressed into combat service after the "formal" end of the Unification Wars in 2007 to deal with Anti-Unification Alliance remnants, but only a few dozen were ever built* and were mostly used for model conversion training.

Master File alleges that several VF-0s at Grand Cannon III also fought off an attack by the remains of the Anti-Unification Alliance, and Macross the First also depicts several units from the Graf Zeppelin II being used to defend South Ataria Island from a suicide attack by the Alliance in late 2008.

Master File offers up a table of VF-0s produced for the UN Forces that accounts for slightly more aircraft than the official sources mention (though the official numbers are said to be approximations), indicating that most VF-0s were assigned to three places: either the carrier CVN-99 Asuka II seen in Macross Zero, her sister ship CVN-100 Graf Zeppelin II seen in the manga Macross the First as part of South Ataria's defenses at the end of 2008, and UN Forces HQ in Alaska.  Small numbers of VF-0s were also sent to Grand Cannon III in Africa and the SLV-111 Daedalus, and a few ended up stationed aboard the Macross and one ended up on HMS Ark Royal.

 

* Official sources suggest 24 VF-0A, 6 VF-0B, 6 VF-0C, 18 VF-0D, and 4 VF-0S for a total of 58 VF-0s built.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[Bolt]

Very interesting information. Quite a modest number of VF-0's built. 

[JB0]

18 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Official sources suggest 24 VF-0A, 6 VF-0B, 6 VF-0C, 18 VF-0D, and 4 VF-0S for a total of 58 VF-0s built.

That's not much worse than the real F-22 numbers.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Bolt said:

Very interesting information. Quite a modest number of VF-0's built. 

By test aircraft standards, it's a pretty huge number... but then most test aircraft aren't meant to be used by more than one or two branches of one nation's armed forces.  

The VF-0 may have ended up with more aircraft than intended due to the influence of different branches of the UN Forces.  The existence of the delta wing single-seat VF-0C is said to be to satisfy requests from the UN Marine Corps.

[Bolt]

So i have questions..concerning DYRL style hangar and launch bay configuration. Let's just use the ARMD as an example. Are there any solid line art (or any art) references that give a good idea on the layout and relation (to each other) of these spaces? I'm trying to create a Megaroad hangar diorama and I'm keen to be as similar and accurate as DYRL and Flashback as i can. I myself haven't found enough info to piece it all together. Now, i have IDEAS, based on real world carriers and , most importantly, based on Macross world carriers. And I've come up with two designs. I've also done many drawings with scale ruler and technical pencil. But they're busy and confusing. So i did a few chicken scratches , for simplicity's sake. As of now, any information or pointing in the right direction would be greatly appreciated!

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

So i have questions..concerning DYRL style hangar and launch bay configuration. Let's just use the ARMD as an example. Are there any solid line art (or any art) references that give a good idea on the layout and relation (to each other) of these spaces?

None that I can recall.  

[Seto Kaiba]

So... I found an interesting detail while I was fact-checking my answer for this other thread:

 

A lot of you are probably familiar with how many of the companies mentioned in the lore for the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series are trademark-safe bland names for various real world companies.  Chrauler for Chrysler, Viggers for Vickers, Mauler for Mauser, Centinental for Continental, and so on.

It seems that the authors of Variable Fighter Master File decided to come up with an alternate explanation for Stonewell and Bellcom.  Stonewell was originally a bland name version of Rockwell International, the now-defunct firm that codeveloped the space shuttle orbiter and owned North American Aviation.  Bellcom was originally a bland name version of the Bell Aerospace division (now Bell Textron).  

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix, however, came up with a new explanation for both that makes the VF-1 somewhat more multinational.  In its version of events:

• Stonewell is not Rockwell International, it's a OTM-focused joint venture by Lockheed Martin and Daimler-Chrysler Aerospace AG (now Airbus Defense and Space GmbH).
• Bellcom is not Bell Textron, it's an OTM-focused joint venture by Boeing, Construcciones Aeronáuticas SA (now Airbus Defense and Space GmbH), and Marconi Electronic Systems (now BAE Systems).

They also mention in passing another company besides Pratt & Whitney, Rolls-Royce, and the fictitious Shinnakasu Heavy Industries who participated in the development of the first thermonuclear reaction turbine engines: EuroJet Turbo GmbH and BAE Systems.

[aurance]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:38 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

So... I found an interesting detail while I was fact-checking my answer for this other thread:

 

A lot of you are probably familiar with how many of the companies mentioned in the lore for the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series are trademark-safe bland names for various real world companies.  Chrauler for Chrysler, Viggers for Vickers, Mauler for Mauser, Centinental for Continental, and so on.

It seems that the authors of Variable Fighter Master File decided to come up with an alternate explanation for Stonewell and Bellcom.  Stonewell was originally a bland name version of Rockwell International, the now-defunct firm that codeveloped the space shuttle orbiter and owned North American Aviation.  Bellcom was originally a bland name version of the Bell Aerospace division (now Bell Textron).  

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix, however, came up with a new explanation for both that makes the VF-1 somewhat more multinational.  In its version of events:

• Stonewell is not Rockwell International, it's a OTM-focused joint venture by Lockheed Martin and Daimler-Chrysler Aerospace AG (now Airbus Defense and Space GmbH).
• Bellcom is not Bell Textron, it's an OTM-focused joint venture by Boeing, Construcciones Aeronáuticas SA (now Airbus Defense and Space GmbH), and Marconi Electronic Systems (now BAE Systems).

They also mention in passing another company besides Pratt & Whitney, Rolls-Royce, and the fictitious Shinnakasu Heavy Industries who participated in the development of the first thermonuclear reaction turbine engines: EuroJet Turbo GmbH and BAE Systems.

Very cool, such detail.

[NightmarePlus]

Not gonna lie I was disappointed by the lack of usage of the Super Ghosts against Heimdall in the later half of the movie. You'd think with how outclassed manned fighters were against the Sv-303s, Xaos would have used them more to at least make the battlefield a bit more even. 

 

Edit: Looking back at it, Delta as a whole had a very distinct lack of support Ghosts for Xaos and the local New UN Spacy Forces when compared to Frontier.

Edited December 28, 2022 by NightmarePlus

[Bolt]

Wouldn't the super ghosts be fodder for the 303's ?

[NightmarePlus]

24 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Wouldn't the super ghosts be fodder for the 303's ?

Not anymore than the manned fighters were. Assuming they'd be deployed with their A.I limiters disabled it'd be a pretty even fight.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, NightmarePlus said:

Not gonna lie I was disappointed by the lack of usage of the Super Ghosts against Heimdall in the later half of the movie. You'd think with how outclassed manned fighters were against the Sv-303s, Xaos would have used them more to at least make the battlefield a bit more even. 

... a very fair point.  It's especially strange given that the Master File book that is currently the ONLY source of specs for the new designs in the movie indicates those Super Ghosts have almost twice the mobility performance of the allegedly top class VF-31AX.  Flood the zone with those, and they should have made light work of the Sv-303s.

 

2 hours ago, NightmarePlus said:

Edit: Looking back at it, Delta as a whole had a very distinct lack of support Ghosts for Xaos and the local New UN Spacy Forces when compared to Frontier.

 Now that you mention it, yeah...

In hindsight, it's actually pretty weird that we don't see the Brisingr Alliance NUNS and Xaos using Ghosts during the war with the Kingdom of the Wind.  

Being short of cash is pretty much THE defining trait of both the Brisingr Alliance itself and the Ragna branch of Xaos.  It's quite literally the reason the VF-31 exists... they developed it locally as an economic self-stimulus with an eye towards export sales.  The General Galaxy QF-4000 Ghost has performance exceeding that of any 4th Generation Valkyrie at 1/3 of the cost of the relatively conservative VF-171.  On cost-performance alone, you'd expect the Brisingr Alliance NUNS to be making fairly extensive use of the QF-4000 Ghost in the various planetary defense fleets.

I guess that was probably a bit of necessary idiocy for the Macross Delta plot to work.  The Kingdom of the Wind wouldn't have gotten very far with its invasion if the Brisingr Alliance New UN Forces swarmed them with fully autonomous Ghosts.

[Bolt]

Maybe the Brisingr branch of Xaos was too broke to have significant numbers of Ghosts..

[pengbuzz]

52 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Maybe the Brisingr branch of Xaos was too broke to have significant numbers of Ghosts..

At the rate they're going, they'll have to shop at Walmart for their equipment...

[Seto Kaiba]

17 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Maybe the Brisingr branch of Xaos was too broke to have significant numbers of Ghosts..

It'd certainly fit with the presentation of Xaos in the Macross Delta TV anime.  In that version, it seemed like Xaos spent every penny they had on the Macross Elysion and the five VF-31 Siegfried customs.  An impression that was only reinforced by the next development in the story after fleeing from Ragna with the Island Jackpot was that the Ragna branch ran out of operating capital almost immediately and could no longer afford fuel, ammunition, and other necessities.  Not to mention later remarks about how it'd take more than year's worth of the branch's total operating budget to remove and replace all of the Epsilon Foundation-provided hardware from the Macross Elysion.

It'd be less explicable in the movie version, where Xaos seems to have exponentially greater resources and fields at least ten* Elysion-type capital ships in the Brisingr globular cluster as opposed to the single ship that they had in the TV anime.  Especially when, in the second film, they had access to a factory satellite while they were regrouping and rearming after retreating from Windermere.  You'd think that, with the limited number of personnel and trial production VF-31s at their disposal, they'd make up the difference with Ghosts.  Esp. if there's something like the Super Ghost on the table, which significantly exceeds even the performance of their ludicrously expensive, ultra-high performance ace custom fighter.

 

 

* Xaos fielded three Elysion-type capital ships in Macross Delta: Passionate Walkure and eight Elysion-type capital ships against the Battle Astraea in Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!!.  With the Macross Megasion having been sunk by friendly fire from the Var-controlled Macross Grasion in Passionate Walkure and Absolute Live!!!!!! confirming that the Macross Elysion was still too badly damaged to participate in the conflict with Heimdall's forces a year later, that would put the lower bound on the number of Elysion-type warships Xaos possesses in the region at 10 in 2068.  (This assumes the Macross Grasion was one of the seven unnamed Elysion-type ships in Absolute Live!!!!!!.  If not, that bumps the lower bound to 11.

[SebastianP]

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

* Xaos fielded three Elysion-type capital ships in Macross Delta: Passionate Walkure and eight Elysion-type capital ships against the Battle Astraea in Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!!.  With the Macross Megasion having been sunk by friendly fire from the Var-controlled Macross Grasion in Passionate Walkure and Absolute Live!!!!!! confirming that the Macross Elysion was still too badly damaged to participate in the conflict with Heimdall's forces a year later, that would put the lower bound on the number of Elysion-type warships Xaos possesses in the region at 10 in 2068.  (This assumes the Macross Grasion was one of the seven unnamed Elysion-type ships in Absolute Live!!!!!!.  If not, that bumps the lower bound to 11.

More than that, even. 

This is from when Max gives the order to move into the Alfheim super gate to get to Windermere. All of the large symbols are marked "Macross-class", and there are twelve of them in the readout. Note that since the ship icons go all the way out to the edge of the display this isn't guaranteed to be all of them, indeed the one shot where we have multiple icons for something where we *know* the display isn't cropped is during the conference call during the fleet muster, where eighteen people dressed just like Max, hat and all, are present by video. One of the shots from that scene shows the entire bridge area from the outside so we can count the portraits accurately.. 

This sort of matches the action footage - while the greatest number seen on screen at any one time is eight, there's a few scenes where the camera jumps from "Gigasion with half a dozen ships in the background from one angle" to "Gigasion with half a dozen or so ships in the background from nearly the opposite angle".

In other words, at least twelve, and possibly as many as nineteen of these things were present for the Second Battle of Windermere (movie version), plus the at least two which definitely weren't present due to having been destroyed or damaged in the previous movie. 

Note that the Ragna Branch having to take on Windermere alone in the TV series may be because Xaos was spread out too far or something along those lines - I don't think they work exclusively in the Brisingr cluster and they may have had some travel time involved that made them late to the party... (or more likely, they didn't have the budge to animate them.)

(Note that this is not really the first time where a previously unique ship gains a whole class worth of sisters for the final climactic showdown out of nowhere - there were *plenty* of Quarters shooting at the Vajra queen in Sayonara no Tsubasa, not just the three that we got better pictures of in the magazine articles). 

 

[Bolt]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Especially when, in the second film, they had access to a factory satellite while they were regrouping and rearming after retreating from Windermere.

Was this a captured (at some point) and retooled Zentradi factory satellite?

[SebastianP]

43 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Was this a captured (at some point) and retooled Zentradi factory satellite?

Yes, to the point where I think they basically re-drew it according to the old line art. 

[Seto Kaiba]

33 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

This is from when Max gives the order to move into the Alfheim super gate to get to Windermere. All of the large symbols are marked "Macross-class", and there are twelve of them in the readout.

Interesting.  Thanks for sharing that.

I'd been thinking of the display where they show the ships firing on the Battle Astraea, which only showed eight.

 

33 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

In other words, at least twelve, and possibly as many as nineteen of these things were present for the Second Battle of Windermere (movie version), plus the at least two which definitely weren't present due to having been destroyed or damaged in the previous movie. 

Twenty or so would make the most sense.

While only about a dozen planets are named and/or visited in the Macross Delta TV anime, the Brisingr globular cluster supposedly has around twenty inhabited planets within its 1,000 light year diameter.  Macross Delta copies very VERY heavily from Macross Frontier, so it would make sense that the Macross Elysion effected the same transition the Macross Quarter did between TV anime and compilation movies: going from one-of-a-kind to "every government has one".  

It makes you wonder which planet the Megasion was from.  Since the Elysion was effectively the headquarters and sole ship of the Xaos Ragna branch, one can assume the same's true for the Megasion and the others.  Whatever planet that ship was from probably lost its entire Xaos branch in one barrage from Sigur Berrentzs.

 

33 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

Note that the Ragna Branch having to take on Windermere alone in the TV series may be because Xaos was spread out too far or something along those lines - I don't think they work exclusively in the Brisingr cluster and they may have had some travel time involved that made them late to the party... (or more likely, they didn't have the budge to animate them.)

In the Macross Delta TV anime, the Xaos branch on Ragna was depicted as the largest branch and de facto (if not de jure) headquarters of the company's PMC and Entertainment divisions in the globular cluster.  They never mention or allude to the existence of any other ships of the Elysion's type, and when we see Xaos's forces regrouping to retreat from Brisingr it's only a handful of escort warships and the Macross Elysion.

The mega-conglomerate Xaos was founded on Earth, though the PMC division and the Tactical Sound Units have only ever been depicted or mentioned operating in the remote regions of space around the Brisingr globular cluster.  The remoteness, isolation, and difficult navigational circumstances of the Brisingr globular cluster are often listed as major factors in the economic difficulties the cluster as a whole faces, and major contributing factors in Windermere IV's war of secession in 2060.  It's worth noting that after the Xaos Ragna branch is forced to flee into deep space, they never mention the possibility of receiving reinforcements from outside the cluster.  Whether this is because there just were none to be had because they only operate in that region or because there was some contractual or legal obstacle is unclear... though given that Xaos's entire involvement in the Brisingr Alliance's war with the Kingdom of the Wind was illegal in and of itself, so I can't see that stopping them.

While SMS was strongly implied or overtly stated to be a very large organization from the word "go" given that it was founded to protect the galaxy-wide shipping of its parent company Bilra Transport, Xaos's PMC division didn't become a large outfit until the movies where they suddenly had dozens of ships instead of just the one.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Was this a captured (at some point) and retooled Zentradi factory satellite?

Considering standard New UN Gov't policy is to seize any factory satellites discovered and repurpose them, it's pretty much a given that it's a captured one that was either retooled already or in the process of being retooled.

[SebastianP]

9 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In the Macross Delta TV anime, the Xaos branch on Ragna was depicted as the largest branch and de facto (if not de jure) headquarters of the company's PMC and Entertainment divisions in the globular cluster.  They never mention or allude to the existence of any other ships of the Elysion's type, and when we see Xaos's forces regrouping to retreat from Brisingr it's only a handful of escort warships and the Macross Elysion.

Note that it's the flagship of the Brisingr Cluster division of Xaos, not the flagship of the *entirety* of the Xaos PMC. I'm sort of assuming that the other ships (Megasion and Grasion in Passionate Walkure, and the Gigasion & Co from Zettai Live, are outside reinforcements from Xaos' HQ or neighboring regions. A whole Macross for each inhabited planet does not match what we see in either the show or the movies given that if there was a Macross on planet during the takeovers, we should have seen some of them be taken over on the ground or in space prior to the movie battle where it actually happened.

(We know that Xaos was doing anti-VAR stuff under contract on Planet Pipré in Macross E, but I don't know where that even was - Wikia says it was in the Brisingr Cluster, but the manga scanslation doesn't appear to say any such thing. As you noted, Xaos is HQ'ed on Earth and ought to be pretty much everywhere, so them having a large fleet of ships unfortunately spread out so they missed the first big event, but already moving so they're in time for the second isn't *entirely* silly). 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

33 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

Note that it's the flagship of the Brisingr Cluster division of Xaos, not the flagship of the *entirety* of the Xaos PMC

I did.  In fact, I said pretty much exactly that in the part you quoted.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In the Macross Delta TV anime, the Xaos branch on Ragna was depicted as the largest branch and de facto (if not de jure) headquarters of the company's PMC and Entertainment divisions in the globular cluster.

 

 

33 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

I'm sort of assuming that the other ships (Megasion and Grasion in Passionate Walkure, and the Gigasion & Co from Zettai Live, are outside reinforcements from Xaos' HQ or neighboring regions.

An inadvisable assumption, given that it's demonstrably incorrect in the only other case where an Elysion-type's home branch is identified.

Max, Exsedol, and the Macross Gigasion are from the Xaos branch on Listania, a planet in the Brisingr globular cluster first mentioned in the 6th episode of the TV series.

Given what's said about the Brisingr globular cluster's remoteness, the most probable answer is that these ships are from other planets in the Brisingr globular cluster.

 

 

33 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

A whole Macross for each inhabited planet does not match what we see in either the show or the movies given that if there was a Macross on planet during the takeovers, we should have seen some of them be taken over on the ground or in space prior to the movie battle where it actually happened.

Well, yeah... the Macross Delta: Passionate Walkure movie is a separate and alternate version of the Macross Delta story as per the franchise's usual approach to movies.  The Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! film is unusual in that it's a film with an original story, but's a sequel to Passionate Walkure.

In the series, the Macross Elysion was the only ship of its type.  In the movies, we see very little of any planet in the Brisingr cluster.  The first film very briefly stops off at Ionideth, but spends most of its time on Ragna and Windermere IV with a brief stop on Al Shahal.  The second film starts on Windermere IV, spends most of its runtime in deep space, stopping very briefly at Alfheim on its way back to Windermere IV.  It's not surprising that we don't see any other Elysion-type ships just sitting around.  The only planet they actually visit for any significant length of time that probably had one is Al Shahal, and they spend most of their time there in the deep desert well away from civilization.

(Of course, the cynical realist would note that the reason these ships aren't seen parked anywhere beforehand is that they were pulled out of the writers arse for the fleet scene.)

 

 

33 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

(We know that Xaos was doing anti-VAR stuff under contract on Planet Pipré in Macross E, but I don't know where that even was - Wikia says it was in the Brisingr Cluster, but the manga scanslation doesn't appear to say any such thing. As you noted, Xaos is HQ'ed on Earth and ought to be pretty much everywhere, so them having a large fleet of ships unfortunately spread out so they missed the first big event, but already moving so they're in time for the second isn't *entirely* silly). 

I'll have to check my print copies of Macross E to see if it actually notes where Pipure is.  I honestly don't recall if it was one of those planets that was "relatively close" to Brisingr or actually in Brisingr.  (Or if it was one and retconned into being the other, which has happened before.)

Bear in mind, Xaos is a mega-conglomerate rather than a monolithic megacorporation.  Instead of being one massive corporation that controls multiple subsidiary companies in one specific industry and directly-related fields or services like Bilra Transport and its wholly-owned subsidiary SMS, it's a loose alliance of multiple smaller corporations that're all owned and controlled by the same holding company.  Unlike SMS, who can be counted on to be anywhere that its parent company Bilra Transport manages interstellar commerce because they were founded as a security force for Bilra Transport's shipping, Xaos's different business interests aren't necessarily guaranteed to all be anywhere one of them is because they operate in different (and sometimes unrelated) industries.  Xaos's original business was a fold communications firm, which you could reasonably assume would be found in a lot of places, but less universally-relevant businesses may be present only in specific regions.  It's possible the PMC and Idol Management division are only present in certain regions like the Brisingr cluster... especially if there's stiff competition in some markets from a better-equipped, more established rival like SMS.

[RedWolf]

From Mirage's reaction I venture to guess she did not know her grandpa was working for Xaos. She just recognized his flying style. Last we heard of Max was in Delta Mini-Theatre where Mirage is writing letters to him. Also he asked autographs of Walkure. 

Some 9 years ago in the Wings of Goodbye novelization Max and Milia was part of the resminforcement fleet in VF-25s. So there is precedent Max has connections to get 5th generation VF. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by RedWolf

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Some 9 years ago in the Wings of Goodbye novelization Max and Milia was part of the resminforcement fleet in VF-25s. So there is precedent Max has connections to get 5th generation VF. 

In the novelization, Max was still in the New UN Forces in 2059 and was part of the joint NUNS and SMS reinforcements coming to the Vajra planet to support the Frontier fleet.

That's not personal connections at work, that's Max wielding his authority as the commander of the Macross 7 fleet's New UN Forces to get a trial production version of the latest VF during a state of emergency.  That authority didn't go with him after he retired and apparently started living on Listania.

(Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah asserts that the Macross 7 fleet government was one of the emigrant governments that purchased the rights to build the VF-25 for their local New UN Forces.  One of the example paintjobs provided is the one for the Macross 7 fleet's special unit "Emerald Force", who supposedly carried out the operational evaluation testing on the VF-25 for the fleet government.)

[aurance]

Is the main gun on Battle class ships more powerful than the one on SDF-1?

Secondly, since the offensive capabilities of such a cannon apparently completely outclass the current ships’ defense capabilities, would it make sense that if a Zentradi fleet encountered a Supervision fleet, both sides would annihilate majority of their enemies quickly with such cannons, then mop up what’s left with “conventional” weapons?

Edited January 3, 2023 by aurance

[azrael]

28 minutes ago, aurance said:

Is the main gun on Battle class ships more powerful than the one on SDF-1?

We don't know. We've never been given figures on output. It is likely more powerful, but there are factors we need to take into account, mostly due to technological advancements due to time. We can say it's more versatile and technologically better, but that is due to time and design, so an apples-to-apples comparison doesn't work.

Quote

Secondly, since the offensive capabilities of such a cannon apparently completely outclass the current ships’ defense capabilities, would it make sense that if a Zentradi fleet encountered a Supervision fleet, both sides would annihilate majority of their enemies quickly with such cannons, then mop up what’s left with “conventional” weapons?

Why? Why not just bring a bigger gun and vaporize them ALL?

[sketchley]

27 minutes ago, azrael said:

We don't know. We've never been given figures on output. It is likely more powerful, but there are factors we need to take into account, mostly due to technological advancements due to time. We can say it's more versatile and technologically better, but that is due to time and design, so an apples-to-apples comparison doesn't work.

Elaborating on this: the Battle Class main gun was depicted at one point as having a "rapid fire" mode, in addition to the 'regular' giant-shot mode.  Even if the 'regular' mode has exactly the same output as the one in the SDF-1, the "rapid fire" mode and having the big gun mounted in a smaller ship that can separate and fly independently of the larger ship makes the Battle Class version infinitely more versatile.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, aurance said:

Is the main gun on Battle class ships more powerful than the one on SDF-1?

It's not explicitly stated to be, but it's clear from in-story context in official and unofficial material that it is given that it's described in terms like "the strongest naval weapon" and said and shown to be an anti-fleet weapon able to vaporize many ships with a single shot.

Exactly how much more powerful is unclear, because not all Macross Cannons are created equal and not all of them are used to their full potential in their respective stories.  Macross 7's Battle 7 was able to sink half a dozen enemy ships with a near-miss at 80% power from its Macross Cannon.  Battle Frontier seemingly only ever fired low power shots, but used a sweep of a low-power beam to kill hundreds if not thousands of Vajra converging on it during an emergency fold.  Macross 13's gained a scattering beam cannon effect that let it hit multiple enemy ships with a single low-power shot.  It wasn't until Battle Astraea that we got something resembling a full-power shot again, which in that case was projected to do a downright apocalyptic level of damage to Windermere IV just by having the path of the beam pass through the planet's atmosphere on its way to its target.  Variable Fighter Master File's description of the fleet assembled to tackle the Main Fleet that destroyed Spica III included the Battle 7, using its main gun in several sustained barrages to help destroy a fleet with a hundred thousand ships (alongside gratuitous reaction weapon spam).

 

1 hour ago, aurance said:

Secondly, since the offensive capabilities of such a cannon apparently completely outclass the current ships’ defense capabilities, would it make sense that if a Zentradi fleet encountered a Supervision fleet, both sides would annihilate majority of their enemies quickly with such cannons, then mop up what’s left with “conventional” weapons?

By all accounts, probably not.

The incredible firepower of super dimension energy cannons (AKA heavy quantum reaction beam cannons) have some pretty significant drawbacks that make them difficult to use effectively on the battlefield.  They're quite large and unwieldy, taking up a substantial amount of space inside of a ship that could be used for conventional beam weapons and to carry combat aircraft.  The energy requirement to achieve such massive destructive force is substantial and even with dedicated reactors and the support of the power grid on the rest of a large ship, it can take several minutes to charge the weapon to fire.  It also takes several minutes (if not longer) to cool the barrel after firing because the beam is made of fusion plasma from a sustained exotic matter thermonuclear detonation.  You pay for the incredible firepower in the vulnerability of your ship between shots.  

The Zentradi, and presumably the Supervision Army as well, use more conventional but still immensely powerful particle beam cannons as their main offensive option for ship-to-ship combat.  In the distant past, they apparently made widespread use of less powerful (in individual terms) but more versatile and spammable thermonuclear reaction warheads launched from battle pods and warships... probably in a manner similar to how the New UN Forces do in the modern day.  The factory satellites producing those munitions were destroyed hundreds of thousands of years ago, and so they make do with conventional munitions to supplement their particle beam cannons.

EDIT: You absolutely CAN build a giant F-Off super dimension energy cannon and try to take out the whole enemy fleet in one go... but if you don't get 'em all, as we saw with Boddole Zer in DYRL? and the UN Spacy in Macross II, you're in trouble.

 

39 minutes ago, azrael said:

Why? Why not just bring a bigger gun and vaporize them ALL?

Golg Boddole Zer, call your agent.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Seto Kaiba