Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Bolt]

 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Bolt said:

 

Coming Late December.*

Kinda expecting this one to be a massive waste of paper, considering the first VF-31 book was pretty weak and largely copied from the VF-25 book while ignoring the actual VF-31 in favor of the one of a kind ace custom one.

 

* If Softbank feels like it.

[pengbuzz]

7 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Coming Late December.*

Kinda expecting this one to be a massive waste of paper, considering the first VF-31 book was pretty weak and largely copied from the VF-25 book while ignoring the actual VF-31 in favor of the one of a kind ace custom one.

 

* If Softbank feels like it.

I dunno... it might be good for propping up that one end of the sofa on the living room that sits a little low in the back....

[Bolt]

I'm hoping (but not holding my breath!) they are going to slip in a little more side info on the VF-24 and how the VF-1AX may relate. Or how badly it performs in comparison. 
Although , until Kawamori actually designs a working VF-24 and gives the green light, they may not even have permission to speak of such wonders..

[twich]

10 hours ago, Bolt said:

 

I have this pre ordered. While I don’t read Japanese, I enjoy the pictures, and who knows what little nuggets we might glean from it.

Twich

[Bolt]

I've got several myself for the same reasons. 

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

I'm hoping (but not holding my breath!) they are going to slip in a little more side info on the VF-24 and how the VF-1AX may relate. Or how badly it performs in comparison. 
Although , until Kawamori actually designs a working VF-24 and gives the green light, they may not even have permission to speak of such wonders..

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

The VF-25 Master File covered the YF-24 and VF-24A a little in passing because the YF-25 (and VF-25) are directly derived from the YF-24 Evolution specification.  To get any more of it, I think we'd need a Master File for another direct derivative like the VF-27 or YF-29.  

The VF-31 Master File didn't really touch on the YF-24 because the VF-31 is several derivations removed from it.  The VF-31 Siegfried that the Master File covered is an aftermarket customization of the trial production VF-31 Kairos, which was a production-intent version of the final YF-31, which was an economized derivative of the YF-30 Chronos.  The YF-30 Chronos was developed from the YF-24 Evolution spec used in the VF-25, YF-26, and VF-27, with some elements of the YF-29 added in.  It's a LOT farther removed, even though it's nominally the same generation of aircraft.  The VF-31AX Kairos Plus is, depending on which source you ask, either a Siegfried repaired with Kairos parts or a Kairos upgraded using Siegfried parts, so it's arguably a parallel branch off the base VF-31.

 

 

4 hours ago, twich said:

I have this pre ordered. While I don’t read Japanese, I enjoy the pictures, and who knows what little nuggets we might glean from it.

Yup, multiple copies here...

[Bolt]

22 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The VF-25 Master File covered the YF-24 and VF-24A a little in passing because the YF-25 (and VF-25) are directly derived from the YF-24 Evolution specification.

Yes, i have the the VF-25 Master File as well. And , being aware of the coverage on the YF-24 in that publication, i am hoping for more info. And , as i said, definitely not holding my breath. A master File covering either the VF-27 or YF-29 would be awesome. And most definitely be more appropriate to cover more info on the VF-24. We've seen info on the YF-24. Now how about the VF-24 !

[twich]

I believe we would do well with master files on the VF-171, VF-27, YF-29, SV-262 and YF-30. I know I would buy any and all of those.

Twich

[NightmarePlus]

So what's with the 31AX being classified as a 6th Generation VF in the book? It didn't seem to have brought anything new to the table to set it apart from other fighters like the YF-29.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 minutes ago, NightmarePlus said:

So what's with the 31AX being classified as a 6th Generation VF in the book? It didn't seem to have brought anything new to the table to set it apart from other fighters like the YF-29.

To be honest, I've not seen that in any of the teased pages of the book thus far.

From where did that come?

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, now we know they're officially taking the piss.

Amazon.co.jp's listing for Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus has the stat block for the VF-31AX on one of the preview images.  To call it "underwhelming" is excessively generous.  If this weren't on an official listing on Amazon, I'd think I was being trolled.

The specs are barely different from the stock Surya Aerospace VF-31A Kairos.

The wingspan's a bit narrower (13.53m vs. 13.70m), it's a bit flatter but that might be a typo (3.58m vs. 3.85m), the weight is exactly the same at 8,250kg, the ISC rating is the same as the stock VF-31A's at 28.0G, and its engines have the same rated output as the VF-31A's at 1,645kN/ea.  The ONLY noteworthy detail is that engine model changed.  Instead of using the stock FF-3001A engines the VF-31 inherited from the VF-25, the detuned version of the YF-30's FF-3001/FC2 engine the Siegfried custom used, or even a fully tuned FF-3001/FC2 engine, they have a FF-3001/FC3 engine that has the same output as the stock FF-3001A engine the mass production type uses.

This POS really is just a ****ing VF-31A a Fold Wave System and some cosmetic modifications.

I feel so goddamn trolled right now.   That's what I get for daring to have expectations of basic competence for a Macross Delta title.

[no3Ljm]

[Seto Kaiba]

For the record, Amazon.co.jp lists a street date of December 29th 2022 for this 128 page joke at our expense.  

[Bolt]

52 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

This POS really is just a ****ing VF-31A a Fold Wave System and some cosmetic modifications.

So, is the onboard FWS at least impressive?

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, Bolt said:

So, is the onboard FWS at least impressive?

If it's the same one used on the VF-31 Siegfried, then that'd be a "No".

One of the few interesting and surprisingly well thought-out original details in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried was the explanation of how the economized version of the Fold Wave System used in the Siegfried custom differs from the full spec version of the technology used in the YF-29.  The Siegfried's Fold Wave System uses less fold quartz at lower purity, so it's much less expensive to produce and they can make and maintain several of them.  The downside is that the performance improvement is much less, and the FWS needs an external source of powerful fold waves (e.g. a powerful fold singer) to activate where the YF-29's FWS has no such activation restriction.  It neatly explains why the Siegfried is only about on par with the VF-27 performance-wise and why Delta Flight can't simply spam the FWS to beat the Aerial Knights any time they want.

The VF-31AX Kairos Plus from Absolute Live!!!!!! is noted to have been improved through the adoption of more fold quartz - not necessarily higher purity fold quartz, just more of the stuff - so the performance of the FWS may have improved somewhat.  Whether it has overcome the restrictions on activation of the Fold Wave System, we'll probably find out in the finished manuscript.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, now we know they're officially taking the piss.

Amazon.co.jp's listing for Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus has the stat block for the VF-31AX on one of the preview images.  To call it "underwhelming" is excessively generous.  If this weren't on an official listing on Amazon, I'd think I was being trolled.

The specs are barely different from the stock Surya Aerospace VF-31A Kairos.

The wingspan's a bit narrower (13.53m vs. 13.70m), it's a bit flatter but that might be a typo (3.58m vs. 3.85m), the weight is exactly the same at 8,250kg, the ISC rating is the same as the stock VF-31A's at 28.0G, and its engines have the same rated output as the VF-31A's at 1,645kN/ea.  The ONLY noteworthy detail is that engine model changed.  Instead of using the stock FF-3001A engines the VF-31 inherited from the VF-25, the detuned version of the YF-30's FF-3001/FC2 engine the Siegfried custom used, or even a fully tuned FF-3001/FC2 engine, they have a FF-3001/FC3 engine that has the same output as the stock FF-3001A engine the mass production type uses.

This POS really is just a ****ing VF-31A a Fold Wave System and some cosmetic modifications.

I feel so goddamn trolled right now.   That's what I get for daring to have expectations of basic competence for a Macross Delta title.

As I said: it might be good for propping up that one end of the sofa on the living room that sits a little low in the back....

[NightmarePlus]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

To be honest, I've not seen that in any of the teased pages of the book thus far.

From where did that come?

A few people from another website had ran the teased pages through a translation software and what was spat out made the mention that the YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31AX were classified as 6th Generation Valkyries.

[twich]

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, now we know they're officially taking the piss.

Amazon.co.jp's listing for Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus has the stat block for the VF-31AX on one of the preview images.  To call it "underwhelming" is excessively generous.  If this weren't on an official listing on Amazon, I'd think I was being trolled.

The specs are barely different from the stock Surya Aerospace VF-31A Kairos.

The wingspan's a bit narrower (13.53m vs. 13.70m), it's a bit flatter but that might be a typo (3.58m vs. 3.85m), the weight is exactly the same at 8,250kg, the ISC rating is the same as the stock VF-31A's at 28.0G, and its engines have the same rated output as the VF-31A's at 1,645kN/ea.  The ONLY noteworthy detail is that engine model changed.  Instead of using the stock FF-3001A engines the VF-31 inherited from the VF-25, the detuned version of the YF-30's FF-3001/FC2 engine the Siegfried custom used, or even a fully tuned FF-3001/FC2 engine, they have a FF-3001/FC3 engine that has the same output as the stock FF-3001A engine the mass production type uses.

This POS really is just a ****ing VF-31A a Fold Wave System and some cosmetic modifications.

I feel so goddamn trolled right now.   That's what I get for daring to have expectations of basic competence for a Macross Delta title.

for this to be a "hot damn" fighter, the stats are rather lackluster.  I would not call this an upgrade, but rather a large downgrade, ala VF-17 to VF-171.

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, NightmarePlus said:

A few people from another website had ran the teased pages through a translation software and what was spat out made the mention that the YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31AX were classified as 6th Generation Valkyries.

Ah, I see it now.  It's in the last sentence on that two-page spread with the Delta Flight VF-31s flying in formation.

"Due to the uncertain factor of Walkure's support, the abilities of the 6th Generation VF were demonstrated for the first time, and many problems remained in the operation of the VF-31AX."

There's no mention in there that I can find of the YF-29 or YF-30 being 6th Generation.  The only mention of the YF-29 is a brief mention of the Dissimilar Air Combat Training exercise from Absolute Live!!!!!! where the newly completed VF-31AX units fielded by Delta Flight got REKT by a YF-29 and four Super Ghosts.

That said, there is some other interesting information hiding in there.  The mobility performance of the Sv-303 and VF-31AX is said to be about 60% that of the Super Ghosts, and on par with each other.  It's also interesting to note that both the VF-31AX and Sv-303 are noted to be dependent on external bio-fold wave sources to activate their fold quartz-based performance enhancements, meaning the VF-31AX's Fold Wave System is an improved version of the Siegfried's not the complete system used in the YF-29.  The reason that Delta Flight fared so much better in their second fight was because of the Armored Pack and performance boosts from Walkure's singing, which allowed the VF-31AX to overpower the Sv-303.  Even then, it's said that Operation Jormungandr only succeeded because of the failure of the Siren Delta System.

 

After a good night's sleep, I remembered something relevant from a partial translation I did of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried.  That book, in its discussion of the VF-31 Siegfried's Fold Wave System, DID assert that the YF-29 is a 6th Generation VF.  So the guys on that other site may have been extrapolating from that to get to the idea that the YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31AX are all 6th Generation.

 

Now, it's worth remembering that these books aren't official setting material and that the official setting classifies these craft slightly differently.  Like the VF-25, the VF-31 is said to be a 5th Generation VF.  The YF-29 and YF-30 are often put into that category as well because they were developed in the same time period and from the same base design (YF-24 Evolution).  An extra feature from the Macross Delta TV anime blu-rays describes the VF-31 Siegfried custom as a 5.5th Generation VF, though it never elaborates upon what a 6th Generation VF is like.  I would assume, based on the classification of the Siegfried and the Kairos, that the Kairos Plus would actually be considered a 5th Generation or 5.5th Generation VF.

[azrael]

So the best way to describe a VF-31AX is it's a later-block VF-31A with stuff (a Fold Wave System) stapled on it.

That's what I'm sticking with.

[Bolt]

16 hours ago, NightmarePlus said:

A few people from another website had ran the teased pages through a translation software and what was spat out made the mention that the YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31AX were classified as 6th Generation Valkyries.

Putting the YF-29 and the YF-30 in the same category as the VF-31AX is ridiculous   And If every time the 31 gets tweeked , they're calling that a new generation, i think that's a bit of a stretch. 
Also the yF-30 (and pretty much the YF-29) are more like experimental aircraft.  Wouldn't a 6th gen VF have to be a production model, in order to actually be considered 6th gen? 

 

12 minutes ago, azrael said:

So the best way to describe a VF-31AX is it's a later-block VF-31A with stuff (a Fold Wave System) stapled on it.

That's what I'm sticking with.

lol. Agreed!

[twich]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Putting the YF-29 and the YF-30 in the same category as the VF-31AX is ridiculous   And If every time the 31 gets tweeked , they're calling that a new generation, i think that's a bit of a stretch. 
Also the yF-30 (and pretty much the YF-29) are more like experimental aircraft.  Wouldn't a 6th gen VF have to be a production model, in order to actually be considered 6th gen? 

 

lol. Agreed!

Kinda like initial block F-16’s and the latest block (70 I think) are so different from the initial, they call it Viper.

Twich

p.s.-also like F/A-18 Hornet to Super Hornet

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, azrael said:

So the best way to describe a VF-31AX is it's a later-block VF-31A with stuff (a Fold Wave System) stapled on it.

That's what I'm sticking with.

More or less.  Since it's Xaos, they're probably made from the same trial production (Block 0 or Block 1) VF-31As that the Siegfrieds were... just modified differently.

 

 

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Putting the YF-29 and the YF-30 in the same category as the VF-31AX is ridiculous   And If every time the 31 gets tweeked , they're calling that a new generation, i think that's a bit of a stretch. 

Granted, I 100% agree that trying to put the VF-31AX in the same category as ridiculous super-prototypes like the YF-29 and YF-30 is pretty silly... but Master File does have its own internal (unofficial) logic about how it's classifying these.

Their view seems to be that the Fold Wave System is a 6th Generation feature, and that the YF-29 was either always or retroactively classified as a 6th Generation design based on it.  That should make the fighters retrofitted with it 5.5th Generation, but if you're not counting the .5 gens then it would technically get the bump to 6th.

 

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Also the yF-30 (and pretty much the YF-29) are more like experimental aircraft.  Wouldn't a 6th gen VF have to be a production model, in order to actually be considered 6th gen? 

The YF-29 was an honest-to-goodness prototype that turned out to be Awesome But Impractical.

The YF-30 was a technology demonstrator that was officially designated a prototype so its lead developer (SMS) could defer having to make legally-required disclosures regarding its new technologies for as long as possible.  

A prototype for a next-gen aircraft is still a next-gen aircraft by definition because generations are typically defined in terms of specific requirements and capabilities.

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, twich said:

Kinda like initial block F-16’s and the latest block (70 I think) are so different from the initial, they call it Viper.

Twich

p.s.-also like F/A-18 Hornet to Super Hornet

On that note; while the "Legacy Hornet" and "Super Hornet" are both clearly from the same lineage, the SH is described as being pretty much a new build:

https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/ask-fighter-pilot-hornet-vs-super-hornet/

the F-16's, AFAIK, are the same builds, but with new equipment.

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Granted, I 100% agree that trying to put the VF-31AX in the same category as ridiculous super-prototypes like the YF-29 and YF-30 is pretty silly... but Master File does have its own internal (unofficial) logic about how it's classifying these.

Their view seems to be that the Fold Wave System is a 6th Generation feature, and that the YF-29 was either always or retroactively classified as a 6th Generation design based on it.  That should make the fighters retrofitted with it 5.5th Generation, but if you're not counting the .5 gens then it would technically get the bump to 6th.

For what it's worth, I think the VF-31 has more in common with the F-35 in the US Armed Forces at this rate.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

For what it's worth, I think the VF-31 has more in common with the F-35 in the US Armed Forces at this rate.

It is based on a real-world aircraft... but not that one.

The VF-31's development history is one long whole plot reference to Japan's effort to domestically develop and produce its own 5th Generation stealth fighter in the Mitsubishi ATD-X (later known as the X-2 Shinshin).  Like Japan and the F-22, the Brisingr Alliance wasn't able to import the full spec VF-24 and opted to develop their own next-generation fighter as an economic self-stimulus and with an eye towards future export sales to allied governments.  The prototype, then designated ATD-X, was being prepared for the first round of test flights at the time Macross Delta premiered in April 2016.

The idea to present the VF-31AX as a 6th Generation fighter is probably inspired by what happened afterwards.  When the ATD-X's test flights were done, Japan's government decided that they needed outside help after all, resulting in plans to pass on producing a 5th Generation fighter in favor of jumping into development of a 6th Generation one... launching the Mitsubishi F-X program.

[RedWolf]

Well Japan, Italy and UK have announced they working together on a Sixth Generation Fighter called the Tempest. The projected characteristics of a real world Sixth Generation Fighter is AI assist and Manned-Unmanned Teamming. 

Something that is fictionally presented in the Macross franchise with AI like ARIEL and Ghosts being a VF's wingman.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Well Japan, Italy and UK have announced they working together on a Sixth Generation Fighter called the Tempest. The projected characteristics of a real world Sixth Generation Fighter is AI assist and Manned-Unmanned Teamming. 

The Tempest was the joint British-Italian 6th Gen fighter program that merged with Japan's 6th Gen fighter program to form the Global Air Combat Programme earlier this year.

Because the merger of those programs happened just a few months ago, they haven't announced an actual name for the new fighter they're codeveloping.

 

10 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Something that is fictionally presented in the Macross franchise with AI like ARIEL and Ghosts being a VF's wingman.

Sort of.

The 2nd Generation airframe control AI "ARIEL" is not a mere support system like the deep learning AI planned for the BAE Tempest... like the 1st Generation AI "ANGIRAS", it's the main flight control system and supervisory controller for all onboard systems.  The Ghosts, for their part, are more or less able to fight and fly autonomously.

BAE's plan is more like the Squire bits used by the Valkyrie II in Macross II... with the "mothership" exercising direct control over the unmanned units accompanying it.

[SebastianP]

On 12/16/2022 at 1:53 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, now we know they're officially taking the piss.

Amazon.co.jp's listing for Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31AX Kairos Plus has the stat block for the VF-31AX on one of the preview images.  To call it "underwhelming" is excessively generous.  If this weren't on an official listing on Amazon, I'd think I was being trolled.

The specs are barely different from the stock Surya Aerospace VF-31A Kairos.

The wingspan's a bit narrower (13.53m vs. 13.70m), it's a bit flatter but that might be a typo (3.58m vs. 3.85m), the weight is exactly the same at 8,250kg, the ISC rating is the same as the stock VF-31A's at 28.0G, and its engines have the same rated output as the VF-31A's at 1,645kN/ea.  The ONLY noteworthy detail is that engine model changed.  Instead of using the stock FF-3001A engines the VF-31 inherited from the VF-25, the detuned version of the YF-30's FF-3001/FC2 engine the Siegfried custom used, or even a fully tuned FF-3001/FC2 engine, they have a FF-3001/FC3 engine that has the same output as the stock FF-3001A engine the mass production type uses.

This POS really is just a ****ing VF-31A a Fold Wave System and some cosmetic modifications.

I feel so goddamn trolled right now.   That's what I get for daring to have expectations of basic competence for a Macross Delta title.

So the question I'm asking myself is, who wrote these specs? Did whoever used to write them leave the Macross team? Is this another "first printed source cannot be contradicted even when it's an obvious typo" situation?

Screwy official specs is nothing new, you know my views on the ships. 

Or, you know, someone could have looked at the spec progression and gone "this curve is more than a little crazy, let's chill out for a bit."

 

With regards to the later discussion of which generation the VF-31 belongs to...

Later generation does not and never has implied "better specs across the board". The shift in generations usually comes from applying some critical new technology that lets it compete in a different weight class despite lower specs. 

In the real world "generation" is a marketing buzzword to be sure, but if you look at the definitions you can clearly see that it's not a raw specs issue. I struggle to remember any hard spec in which the F/A-18 Hornet beats out the F-4 Phantom, but the Hornet is still counted as a 4th generation fighter while the Phantom is a 3rd generation one, and I think most air forces would rather have the Hornet than the Phantom if given the option unless they specifically need the longer range, because the Hornet flies easier, has much improved electronics, and is cheaper to operate. 

"Fifth Generation" fighters in the real world are simply those with radical low observability built into their airframes, which means the F-22, the Su-57, the F-35 and that one Chinese thing I don't remember the number of are all "Fifth generation", because they have that one killer tech that lets them dictate when the fight is happening unless they're up against each other.

In Macross, I don't know what the differences between first, second and third generation are, but "fourth generation" fighters were those with independent orbit capability, "fifth generation" are those with Inertial Storage Converters (which means that in terms of generation, the VF-171EX is the same generation as the VF-25 or VF-27; but the standard VF-171 may even be third generation depending on whether it can make orbit on its own). The Master File writers have apparently decided that having a fold quartz boost system is what makes a VF "sixth generation", which make the Siegfried and Kairos Plus "sixth generation" same as the Durandal and the Chronos, while the Kairos is fifth generation like the Messiah and Lucifer, despite not having the improved baseline specs you expect. (Hell, the Kairos is probably a low-end 6th generation fighter as well. It's not boosted *much*, but it is boosted, using fold carbon instead of fold quartz. )

Anyway, the most interesting thing in the previews revealed so far to me was "CV/C-122 Laertius". Always good to have more ship names.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

So the question I'm asking myself is, who wrote these specs?

Probably Masahiro Chiba, Macross's go-to man for specs and technical writeups.

 

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

Did whoever used to write them leave the Macross team?

No, that's Masahiro Chiba.  He's been with the franchise from a very early point, to the extent that he's one of the few staffers to have an actual named character modeled on him in a Macross series.  (Macross 7's Dr. Gadget M. Chiba.)

 

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

Is this another "first printed source cannot be contradicted even when it's an obvious typo" situation?

No, but this is currently the ONLY source that has presented any kind of specs for the VF-31AX Kairos Plus.

 

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

Or, you know, someone could have looked at the spec progression and gone "this curve is more than a little crazy, let's chill out for a bit."

Almost certainly not.

The main problem with these specs is that it doesn't at all align with what's said about the VF-31AX anywhere else.  When they're introduced in Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!!, the VF-31AX Kairos Plus is presented as an improved version of Xaos's custom VF-31 Siegfried that Delta Flight had been flying up to that point.  Official publications haven't been clear or consistent about whether they were stock VF-31As that were retrofitted with new and salvaged parts from the Siegfrieds or Siegfrieds repaired with new and spare parts from the stock VF-31A, but the one thing they all agree on is that this new model is supposed to outperform the VF-31 Siegfried and the Sv-262 Draken III and rival the unmanned Sv-303 in mobility.  In one interview, Kawamori claimed that its performance was not hugely different from that of the YF-29.

Where we run into problems is that these stats - the ONLY stats we've seen for the VF-31AX thus far - don't support any of that.  Well, except for the notion that the Kairos Plus is a stock VF-31A Kairos retrofitted with salvaged Siegfried parts.  Based on these stats, its performance without the Fold Wave System active is no different from the stock VF-31A (and therefore a decent bit below the VF-31 Siegfried or Sv-262, never mind the Sv-303 that Worf'd both with comical ease).  This becomes slightly more problematic in that the Master File for the VF-31 Siegfried established that Xaos's version of the Fold Wave System is a good deal less powerful than the YF-29's and cannot be activated at will the way the YF-29 Fold Wave System can because it's dependent on a powerful external bio-fold wave source (e.g. Freyja or Mikumo).  By any objective standard, it looks like a downgrade instead of the upgrade the film presents it as.

 

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

Later generation does not and never has implied "better specs across the board". The shift in generations usually comes from applying some critical new technology that lets it compete in a different weight class despite lower specs. 

In the real world "generation" is a marketing buzzword to be sure, but if you look at the definitions you can clearly see that it's not a raw specs issue.

It's not a marketing buzzword, it's a classification system that was proposed by a historian looking at the evolution of jet fighter technology up to 1990 and subsequently adopted and finessed by various government agencies.

You are correct that it's not based on raw performance... it's based on significant advances in technology and the corresponding shifts in design and strategic priorities.  The same is true for the New UN Forces classifications of Variable Fighters into Generations.  The ones that got the most attention are, of course, the ones that were introduced after the idea of dividing fighters up into generations became popularized in the 90's... the 4th Generation Advanced Variable Fighters (VF-19, VF-22, VF-171) in Macross Plus and Macross 7 and the 5th Generation in Macross Frontier and beyond.  As in the real world, this tends to correspond to major development programs that defined the requirements for that generation's designs.

 

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

In Macross, I don't know what the differences between first, second and third generation are,

... we have notes on that.  Extensive notes.

The short version is that the 1st Generation are, of course, the initial designs for Variable Fighters like the VF-1 and VF-X-2, as well as proof-of-concept aircraft like the VF-0 and the Sv-51 and Sv-52.  The 2nd Generation starts with the Earth UN Government's plans for the VF-1's successor with the competing VF-X-3 and VF-X-4 that were in early testing during the First Space War and a number of designs developed after the war ended with a focus on small, often specialized, Variable Fighters designed for good cost-performance in early emigrant fleets.  The 3rd Generation is marked by Project Nova, the design competition between the VF-11 and VF-14 to select the VF-4 and VF-5000's successor, as well as efforts to diversify the Variable concept into the realms of dedicated Attackers and Bombers. 

 

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

but "fourth generation" fighters were those with independent orbit capability,

Oh, it's more than that.  Project Super Nova set down the requirements for a 4th Generation Variable Fighter as a high-performance stealth-focused Valkyrie able to infiltrate behind enemy lines to strike command centers/ships to fatally disorient enemy forces without the need for total destruction.  This was especially important because the New UN Forces had begun to have to consider the use of Valkyries against Human threats on top of rogue Zentradi forces.  The new technologies that defined that generation were the thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines that enabled VFs to have efficient SSTO capability and more surplus generator output for defense, the ARIEL airframe control AI, the 3rd Generation active stealth technology, independent fold capability via native support for fold boosters, and pin-point barrier systems for defense.

 

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

"fifth generation" are those with Inertial Storage Converters (which means that in terms of generation, the VF-171EX is the same generation as the VF-25 or VF-27; but the standard VF-171 may even be third generation depending on whether it can make orbit on its own).

More than that, 5th Generation VFs are defined by Project Evolution and the New UN Forces demand for a next-generation VF that could address the controllability issues of their failed 4th Generation designs (the VF-19 and VF-22) while also achieving performance able to rival or exceed the Vajra's in anticipation of further conflicts with them.  The creation of Inertia Store Converter technology was a keystone technology of that generation, but its other hallmarks include the EX-Gear control suite, the Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine, ARIEL II airframe control AI, linear actuator transformation system, integrated sensors, and new armor materials.

For its part, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus is a 4th Generation Variable Fighter.  It was developed as a replacement for the failed VF-19 and VF-22 as a less extreme design prioritizing ease of control and handling over red raw performance, but nevertheless included all of the same technological advancements used in those initial 4th Generation models.

The Frontier fleet's VF-171EX and VF-171-IIIF could be considered 4.5th Generation designs.  The 4th Generation VF-171 was improved with certain technologies developed for the 5th Generation VF-25 like the integrated radar system, EX-Gear cockpit, and its new ablative anti-beam coating formulation.  The didn't adopt the ISC or other technologies like the ARIEL II avionics, Stage II engines, or linear actuators for transformation.

 

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

The Master File writers have apparently decided that having a fold quartz boost system is what makes a VF "sixth generation", which make the Siegfried and Kairos Plus "sixth generation" same as the Durandal and the Chronos, while the Kairos is fifth generation like the Messiah and Lucifer, despite not having the improved baseline specs you expect.

That's where we run into problems/conflicts... since the official materials classified several fighters with those systems including the Siegfrieds as 5th Generation still.

The YF-29 and YF-30 were also developed in parallel with the VF-25 and other 5th Generation VFs, and the VF-31 Siegfreid and VF-31AX Kairos Plus are modified 5th Generation VFs.

 

1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

(Hell, the Kairos is probably a low-end 6th generation fighter as well. It's not boosted *much*, but it is boosted, using fold carbon instead of fold quartz. )

No, we know that's not the case for several reasons.

First, the production VF-31 Kairos explicitly does not have a Fold Wave System.  The Fold Wave System is what produces the synergistic effect between fold waves and various key systems on the Valkyrie that provide that performance improvement and, on the YF-29, allow the craft to draw energy directly from higher dimensional space.

Second, fold carbon can't be used in a Fold Wave System.  The reason that a technology as amazingly useful as the Fold Wave System is so rare is because manufacturing one takes incredibly rare materials that can't be synthesized (yet).  Specifically, it needs very large pieces of extremely high-purity fold quartz.  Something that generally isn't found outside of the bodies of Vajra Queens or rarely in certain Protoculture ruins.  Fold quartz could be described as a very high purity form of fold carbon that's beyond Humanity's current ability to manufacture, which creates much more powerful fold waves that transcend dimensional faults and time differentials.  Fold carbon is an essential material in any overtechnology that manipulates gravity or higher dimensional spacetime, and is used in thermonuclear reactors, gravity control systems, fold navigation and communications systems, holographic projectors, and the like.  Even the highest purity fold carbon is not up to the task of driving a Fold Wave System, so it wouldn't provide any performance improvement unless it was directly applied in place of a lower-purity fold carbon in a direct application (e.g. a reactor's Gravity and Inertia Control system).

Third and lastly, the VF-31A Kairos is explicitly officially described as 5th Generation like the VF-24, VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30.  Even the Siegfried custom version is described as being "5.5th Generation" rather than 6th, officially.

[rematron]

Was mechanical vs magnetic assisted transformation ever a factor in generation classification and if so, what generation did that fall into?

Edited December 18, 2022 by rematron

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, rematron said:

Was mechanical vs magnetic assisted transformation ever a factor in generation classification and if so, what generation did that fall into?

Yes, it was.  One of the signature technological advancements of the 5th Generation Valkyries was the adoption of a new form of non-contact linear actuator that replaced many of the small and comparatively fragile electromechanical and electromagnetic rotary actuators in the transformation system.  Reducing the number of moving parts and having them not actually be in physical contact with each other during the transformation made the transformation process faster and more reliable and made the Battroid itself more durable.

[Bolt]

44 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yes, it was.  One of the signature technological advancements of the 5th Generation Valkyries was the adoption of a new form of non-contact linear actuator that replaced many of the small and comparatively fragile electromechanical and electromagnetic rotary actuators in the transformation system.  Reducing the number of moving parts and having them not actually be in physical contact with each other during the transformation made the transformation process faster and more reliable and made the Battroid itself more durable.

So the YF-19 and YF-21 did not have those improvements then? 

[Seto Kaiba]

15 minutes ago, Bolt said:

So the YF-19 and YF-21 did not have those improvements then? 

Nope. The first one to get them was the YF-24.

One of the three original YF-24 prototypes was lost due to a linear actuator malfunction during testing that caused a crash.

[twich]

On 12/15/2022 at 6:36 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

If it's the same one used on the VF-31 Siegfried, then that'd be a "No".

One of the few interesting and surprisingly well thought-out original details in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried was the explanation of how the economized version of the Fold Wave System used in the Siegfried custom differs from the full spec version of the technology used in the YF-29.  The Siegfried's Fold Wave System uses less fold quartz at lower purity, so it's much less expensive to produce and they can make and maintain several of them.  The downside is that the performance improvement is much less, and the FWS needs an external source of powerful fold waves (e.g. a powerful fold singer) to activate where the YF-29's FWS has no such activation restriction.  It neatly explains why the Siegfried is only about on par with the VF-27 performance-wise and why Delta Flight can't simply spam the FWS to beat the Aerial Knights any time they want.

The VF-31AX Kairos Plus from Absolute Live!!!!!! is noted to have been improved through the adoption of more fold quartz - not necessarily higher purity fold quartz, just more of the stuff - so the performance of the FWS may have improved somewhat.  Whether it has overcome the restrictions on activation of the Fold Wave System, we'll probably find out in the finished manuscript.

So, I am curious about your statement....how is a VF-31 Siegfried on par with a VF-27?  I would think that with the 4 engines, the prerequisite that it has to be piloted by an android and the fact that all the weapons are beam based, with a huge beam cannon/grenade gunpod as its main weapon, along with 2 sets of beam guns of various size, how is a VF-31 on par?  I guess that if I think about it, the Fold Wave system could be a boost to the performance of the VF-31, but isnt it only a 15% increase in thrust from the Fold Wave System?

Twich