Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[SebastianP]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Considering how ruthlessly the Protoculture economized everything else about the Zentradi's ships and equipment, it seems unlikely they would order such a thing be constructed in Zentradi fleet motherships unless they intended to actually make good use of it.

 

Or, "Zentraedi are soldiers, they don't need comforts. I, however, do, and if I have to go anywhere near a battlefield I want to take a piece of home with me and be as comfortable as possible. And even if I'm not there, I want the ship prepared for my arrival at moment's notice".

Anyway, a quick illustration of why ship sizes in Macross are bonkers unless they're literally bigger on the inside:

The ship model was posted to the Sketchup 3D Warehouse by David M, I've rescaled it to "true scale" so it's 1200 meters long instead of just one. While not perfectly accurate, the proportions are good enough to give the gist of the size.

The block-like things are stacks of civilians, each one in a phonebooth sized box (2 x 1 x 1 meters) spaced half a meter apart, with 15,000 civvies in each stack. (10 tall x 15 deep x 99 wide in each stack). So... given how much sheer volume that just the *people* take up... how does a city fit inside of this ship? (The answer is, "super dimension means bigger on the inside", alternatively "sci fi writers have no sense of scale". 

I get the idea that the official size was arrived at because someone came up with the idea of the Macross Attack being performed with a surface ship to the face, so they needed the ship small enough that the surface ship was not ridiculously huge (it still is, but at least ships in the same general size category are plausible, given Seawise Giant/Knock Nevis was around that length); you can see what's recognizable as the Daedalus in concept art that predate the final shape of the SDF-1 itself.

But the the "50 thousand civilians in a city built in the unused spaces" either predate the size change to accommodate the Macross attack, or no one ever did a visualization like this to see how much sheer space that just the bodies of those 50,000 civvies would take up...

Edit: 

Instead of a phonebooth, this is the amount of space 45,000 people each living in a 2 x 4 meter room take up, without paying attention to things like corridors and plumbing. That's around 5 tatami mats, so not the absolute smallest you can go (3 tatami is the smallest I've found), but it's on the small side definitely.

Edited November 8, 2022 by SebastianP

[Seto Kaiba]

26 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

Or, "Zentraedi are soldiers, they don't need comforts. I, however, do, and if I have to go anywhere near a battlefield I want to take a piece of home with me and be as comfortable as possible. And even if I'm not there, I want the ship prepared for my arrival at moment's notice".

Given the ruthlessly economized nature of practically all Zentradi equipment, it strikes me as extremely unlikely that the ancient Protoculture would have engineered the motherships with a nature park the size of Milwaukee that recreated the conditions on their homeworld if they weren't going to have personnel aboard those ships on a regular basis and for long durations.  If they were just popping in every now and again, you'd expect they'd just stay aboard the ships they came on, which were doubtless engineered with far more in terms of creature comforts than a Zentradi warship.  

 

36 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

Anyway, a quick illustration of why ship sizes in Macross are bonkers unless they're literally bigger on the inside:

And this has what to do with what now?

Also, not a great example since this does actually work in terms of the ship's internal volume and it's well attested-to that the ship itself is mostly hollow... which enabled them to get all those people in there in the first place.  (Not to mention it's also well established that it was a very suboptimal situation and the ship really didn't have the resources to sustain the population it was carrying... and that the mass-production type scaled its population back to around 10,000.)

Mind you, this runs into the problem of the average person's inability to grasp the sheer scale of these ships... or even of our much smaller contemporary supercarriers.  Few people have access to manmade structures large enough to be comparable.  My workplace, for instance, is one such structure.  You could park eight Gerald R. Ford-class aircraft carriers in it and have room for three or four more if you parked them in the courtyards.  It's square footage is approximately equal to just the footprint of the Macross (~501,700 square meters), and even with over 15,000 people and several hundred cars in it it's still pretty much empty.

[Knight26]

@Seto Kaibais right about the scale of things.  A modern nuclear aircraft carrier has a crew complement of 5000+.  Given that the D&P are each approximately 50% large (500m compared to 350m) one could easily estimate their crew sizes to be equal increased to 7500+, each.  The Macross is supposed to have a military compliment of 20k, with 15k on the carriers, that leaves only 5000 aboard the SDF-1 herself.  That is a huge amount of space for that crew.  Now, taking into account the relatively small internal volume of the SDF-1's engines and other mechanical systems, stuffing 58k civilians onboard would be possible, just not ideal.  The city is stretching things, but city-like amenities could be incorporated into the cavernous legs, with the majority of the civilian population then relocated into low security areas of the ship, or conscripted into the crew.  

ANother way to look at it.  Tokyo has a population density of 6000+ people per square kilometer (and it isn't even in the top 100 for population density).  Assuming a rough usable deck print of 1000mx400m, that is .4km^2, per deck.  The SDF-1 is then 312m tall, of which maybe 100m would be full size decks.  Assuming 3m deck spacing average, that gives approximately 33 decks, so a total deck area of 13.2km^2.  Not including the partial length/width decks, that gives space enough for 79,200 people.  Which matches up nicely with the original numbers of 20k crew and 58k civilians.  Even with the lost deck spacing between individual components, there are still additional deck levels to make up the difference.

Taking all that into account, aside from the few large spaces like concert venues, resteraunts and entertainment spaces, most people would probably live in either communal spaces or micro-apartments spread throughout the ship.  The "city" would be where they go when not at home to try and keep a sense of normality and raise moral.  Yes, that does not line up exaclty with what is seen in the animation, but it could still work out feasibly.

Or for a real world example:  Male' city in the Maldives, a tiny island city is only 6km^2 and has a population in excess of 133k people with the tallest building topping out at 15 stories, and most coming in under 10 stories.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Knight26

[SebastianP]

38 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

And this has what to do with what now?

Also, not a great example since this does actually work in terms of the ship's internal volume and it's well attested-to that the ship itself is mostly hollow... which enabled them to get all those people in there in the first place.  (Not to mention it's also well established that it was a very suboptimal situation and the ship really didn't have the resources to sustain the population it was carrying... and that the mass-production type scaled its population back to around 10,000.)

Mind you, this runs into the problem of the average person's inability to grasp the sheer scale of these ships... or even of our much smaller contemporary supercarriers.  Few people have access to manmade structures large enough to be comparable.  My workplace, for instance, is one such structure.  You could park eight Gerald R. Ford-class aircraft carriers in it and have room for three or four more if you parked them in the courtyards.  It's square footage is approximately equal to just the footprint of the Macross (~501,700 square meters), and even with over 15,000 people and several hundred cars in it it's still pretty much empty.

The problem is we see how people live in the city and it's not "stacked like sardines in efficiency apartments." There's just way too much *space* inside the ship. I mean, just look at the training area where Hikaru did his basic training early on in the show? There's an actual military base with a barracks and everythign. That's got to take up a huge chunk of not just deck space, but volume. Same with the park and amphitheater where the Miss Macross competition takes place. Then there's the roads, and the business district, and the fact that the buildings in the city don't go all the way to the top of the compartments they're in, so there's space above that's effectively wasted. 

The size of the features we see inside the ship add up, and the tally doesn't really match...

Which is why I think that the size of the population and the facilities within the ship are holdovers from before they decided "won't it be cool if the Macross punches something with an ocean-going vessel?" 

1 hour ago, Knight26 said:

ANother way to look at it.  Tokyo has a population density of 6000+ people per square kilometer (and it isn't even in the top 100 for population density).  Assuming a rough usable deck print of 1000mx400m, that is .4km^2, per deck.  The SDF-1 is then 312m tall, of which maybe 100m would be full size decks.  Assuming 3m deck spacing average, that gives approximately 33 decks, so a total deck area of 13.2km^2.  Not including the partial length/width decks, that gives space enough for 79,200 people.  Which matches up nicely with the original numbers of 20k crew and 58k civilians.  Even with the lost deck spacing between individual components, there are still additional deck levels to make up the difference.

Your math makes my brain hurt, you can't divide the ship into 3 meter decks and claim you can get the same density per square kilometer of deck space as a city full of skyscrapers gets per geographic area.

Being very generous, the Macross has an overall population density of around 150,000 per square kilometer of surface footprint, and that's counting the space in between each arm and leg. Without that, we're probably looking at 200k. While there are places in the real world with 150k per square kilometer, looking at the wikipedia articles for them I'm *guessing* that has to do with people having twelve kids and living in shoebox deathtraps with streets so narrow that if a fire ever occurred, the fire engines would have to wait outside the district lines because they won't fit.

The first "affluent" area listed on Wikipedia's list of city districts by population density among the ones I checked at least is Yorkville, Manhattan. Where the residents live in 40 story skyscrapers, and have a population density of 60k according to the 2010 census. 

[Seto Kaiba]

33 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

The problem is we see how people live in the city and it's not "stacked like sardines in efficiency apartments."

... to be accurate, we see how one family lives in the city and it's over the restaurant that is their place of work.

That is not enough to extrapolate the living conditions of everyone else on the ship.  The same can be said for the soldiers, since we only ever see officers quarters, and most of those being senior officers quarters for top-ranking personnel like the CAG and the ship's Captain.

The movie version, of course, is its own thing and an in-universe movie to boot.  Its depiction is likely the city section of a Macross-class mass production type meant to hold only about 10,000.

Realism is strained a bit, but it's not nearly as bad as you make it out.

 

33 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

I mean, just look at the training area where Hikaru did his basic training early on in the show? There's an actual military base with a barracks and everythign. That's got to take up a huge chunk of not just deck space, but volume. Same with the park and amphitheater where the Miss Macross competition takes place. Then there's the roads, and the business district, and the fact that the buildings in the city don't go all the way to the top of the compartments they're in, so there's space above that's effectively wasted. 

That kind of depends on interpretation of individual shots, esp. once they've installed a holographic sky that makes it impossible to tell where the ceiling actually is.  The military base is on the large side, but it's also a fairly densely populated thing by nature.  The official art that's been published suggests that the areas where the ceiling wasn't practically brushing the rooftops were few and far between.  Not just that, they built into every available space they could get including module articulations and airlocks, which is why they had such trouble with the transformation initially.

Your premise also kind of ignores that the entire island these people were on wasn't much bigger than the ship and the entire city these people were already living in amounted to maybe 4 square kilometers counting the space occupied by the ship.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Given the ruthlessly economized nature of practically all Zentradi equipment, it strikes me as extremely unlikely that the ancient Protoculture would have engineered the motherships with a nature park the size of Milwaukee that recreated the conditions on their homeworld if they weren't going to have personnel aboard those ships on a regular basis and for long durations.  If they were just popping in every now and again, you'd expect they'd just stay aboard the ships they came on, which were doubtless engineered with far more in terms of creature comforts than a Zentradi warship.  

 

And this has what to do with what now?

Also, not a great example since this does actually work in terms of the ship's internal volume and it's well attested-to that the ship itself is mostly hollow... which enabled them to get all those people in there in the first place.  (Not to mention it's also well established that it was a very suboptimal situation and the ship really didn't have the resources to sustain the population it was carrying... and that the mass-production type scaled its population back to around 10,000.)

Mind you, this runs into the problem of the average person's inability to grasp the sheer scale of these ships... or even of our much smaller contemporary supercarriers.  Few people have access to manmade structures large enough to be comparable.  My workplace, for instance, is one such structure.  You could park eight Gerald R. Ford-class aircraft carriers in it and have room for three or four more if you parked them in the courtyards.  It's square footage is approximately equal to just the footprint of the Macross (~501,700 square meters), and even with over 15,000 people and several hundred cars in it it's still pretty much empty.

Okay, let me see if I can help illustrate your point a bit more, and put this in perspective for folks in this topic with a graphic I did some time ago:

 

From my friend's house in Meriden, CT (blotted out for his privacy) to the local mall (about 3/4 of a mile away) is the distance the SDF-1 takes up according to scale. I did this graphic for him so he could understand just how big the ship really is! Having grown up in this city, let me tell you that walking the distance that the SDF-1 takes up from one end to the other and then using that as a mental measurement nearly broke my mind!

Edited November 8, 2022 by pengbuzz

[Knight26]

6 hours ago, SebastianP said:

The problem is we see how people live in the city and it's not "stacked like sardines in efficiency apartments." There's just way too much *space* inside the ship. I mean, just look at the training area where Hikaru did his basic training early on in the show? There's an actual military base with a barracks and everythign. That's got to take up a huge chunk of not just deck space, but volume. Same with the park and amphitheater where the Miss Macross competition takes place. Then there's the roads, and the business district, and the fact that the buildings in the city don't go all the way to the top of the compartments they're in, so there's space above that's effectively wasted. 

The size of the features we see inside the ship add up, and the tally doesn't really match...

Which is why I think that the size of the population and the facilities within the ship are holdovers from before they decided "won't it be cool if the Macross punches something with an ocean-going vessel?" 

Your math makes my brain hurt, you can't divide the ship into 3 meter decks and claim you can get the same density per square kilometer of deck space as a city full of skyscrapers gets per geographic area.

Being very generous, the Macross has an overall population density of around 150,000 per square kilometer of surface footprint, and that's counting the space in between each arm and leg. Without that, we're probably looking at 200k. While there are places in the real world with 150k per square kilometer, looking at the wikipedia articles for them I'm *guessing* that has to do with people having twelve kids and living in shoebox deathtraps with streets so narrow that if a fire ever occurred, the fire engines would have to wait outside the district lines because they won't fit.

The first "affluent" area listed on Wikipedia's list of city districts by population density among the ones I checked at least is Yorkville, Manhattan. Where the residents live in 40 story skyscrapers, and have a population density of 60k according to the 2010 census. 

Hence why my final example is Male in the Maldives, the majority of buildings in the 6km^2 island city are sub 10 stories, with the largest being 15 stories, and having a population of over 133k people, and it is not exactly a poor city.  That area also encompasses all the parklands, marinas, and other schooling and entertainment venues.  And as @Seto Kaiba pointed out we largely see only one family living in their home (Likely because of their business), and officer quarters.  Most of the rest of the city, outside of the entertainment, shopping, and morale venues, are what appear to be apartment blocks, by and large.  The "cityscape" aspect of the ship would largely be maintained to try and keep the civilian population's morale up with their actual living spaces being far more cramped for the average citizens.

There is also SK's own words on the matter.  In an interview back in the early 2000s (IIRC) right around the time the PS2 game was released, he literally said that we have yet to see the true story of Macross.  He compared each production to being like a WW2 movie or TV show, which gets a lot of the facts right but falls down on the details in certain points.  When we see it from that perspective, then the original SDF-Macross could be seen as a low to mid-budget TV series that has to use existing sets wherever possible, maybe even aboard the actual SDF-1, where possible, but they are limited to where they can shoot, hence having to use a fair number of "Sets" that are outside of the ship that they do their best to mask.  Then, as @Seto Kaiba pointed out, DYRL was likely "filmed" aboard a later gen Macross class, which reduced the number of civlians onboard and had more lavish facilities as a result.  THe original series might also have as well for all we know.

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Knight26 said:

Hence why my final example is Male in the Maldives, the majority of buildings in the 6km^2 island city are sub 10 stories, with the largest being 15 stories, and having a population of over 133k people, and it is not exactly a poor city.  That area also encompasses all the parklands, marinas, and other schooling and entertainment venues.  And as @Seto Kaiba pointed out we largely see only one family living in their home (Likely because of their business), and officer quarters.  Most of the rest of the city, outside of the entertainment, shopping, and morale venues, are what appear to be apartment blocks, by and large.  The "cityscape" aspect of the ship would largely be maintained to try and keep the civilian population's morale up with their actual living spaces being far more cramped for the average citizens.

There is also SK's own words on the matter.  In an interview back in the early 2000s (IIRC) right around the time the PS2 game was released, he literally said that we have yet to see the true story of Macross.  He compared each production to being like a WW2 movie or TV show, which gets a lot of the facts right but falls down on the details in certain points.  When we see it from that perspective, then the original SDF-Macross could be seen as a low to mid-budget TV series that has to use existing sets wherever possible, maybe even aboard the actual SDF-1, where possible, but they are limited to where they can shoot, hence having to use a fair number of "Sets" that are outside of the ship that they do their best to mask.  Then, as @Seto Kaiba pointed out, DYRL was likely "filmed" aboard a later gen Macross class, which reduced the number of civlians onboard and had more lavish facilities as a result.  THe original series might also have as well for all we know.

Makes me wonder what "the real story" would look like. But then, since "canon" isn't a thing with Kawamori, I guess we'll never know...

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, Knight26 said:

When we see it from that perspective, then the original SDF-Macross could be seen as a low to mid-budget TV series that has to use existing sets wherever possible, maybe even aboard the actual SDF-1, where possible, but they are limited to where they can shoot, hence having to use a fair number of "Sets" that are outside of the ship that they do their best to mask.  Then, as @Seto Kaiba pointed out, DYRL was likely "filmed" aboard a later gen Macross class, which reduced the number of civlians onboard and had more lavish facilities as a result.  THe original series might also have as well for all we know.

Not to mention that both the "real" Macross and any recreations for in-universe docu-dramas were literally making the ship appear bigger on the inside through the strategic use of holograms.  Holographic false skies concealed the fact that compartment ceilings were practically scraping the rooftops in most places, giving the illusion that there was only the one layer of city when in fact it was stacked 3-4 layers deep in places.

 

[Knight26]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not to mention that both the "real" Macross and any recreations for in-universe docu-dramas were literally making the ship appear bigger on the inside through the strategic use of holograms.  Holographic false skies concealed the fact that compartment ceilings were practically scraping the rooftops in most places, giving the illusion that there was only the one layer of city when in fact it was stacked 3-4 layers deep in places.

 

Exactly.  When it comes to interior habitable volume the bigger issue will always be storage and mechanical space volume.  Even then, as we have pointed out, actual living spaces would likely be crammed in wherever they can be found with multiple people living in the same small "apartment."  Those few "large" homes we see in the city section seem reserved for business owners and the higher-ups in the city.  

I think the reason why so many people have a hard time picturing the actual volume/living requirements is due to western civilian living conditions bias.  Anyone who has spent time in crowded cities, or aboard a warship understands how big a small space can actually be when used appropriately.  Of course in Western Sci-Fi we often see the opposite issue, massive ships with tiny crews, look at any of the Enterprises from Star Trek.

[Seto Kaiba]

33 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

Exactly.  When it comes to interior habitable volume the bigger issue will always be storage and mechanical space volume.  Even then, as we have pointed out, actual living spaces would likely be crammed in wherever they can be found with multiple people living in the same small "apartment."  Those few "large" homes we see in the city section seem reserved for business owners and the higher-ups in the city.  

Of course, the other big question is long-term sustainability.

When you start drawing comparisons between the conditions on the Macross and regular cities, the comparison is already skewed by the fact that the cities you're comparing the interior of the Macross to are meant to be comfortable places to live long-term.  The city inside the Macross was an ugly compromise meant to give the population of South Ataria somewhere to live and something to do while the Macross made the return trip to Earth by conventional means.  Neither the ship nor the island had the resources to sustain those people long-term, so the ship had to stop and raid the proverbial (and literal) pantry at Mars Base on its way home in order to keep the people fed and watered and then take on an additional quantity of supplies when it was briefly sent back into space.  

The city inside the Macross was a cramped, unpleasant affair that beat a poke in the eye with a sharp stick or a slow death from asphyxiation in an air raid bunker inside a small island-turned-asteroid at the fringes of the solar system.  It wasn't a place you would want to live long-term... which is probably why the first thing the ship's population did when they got back to Earth was throw a raucous party outdoors.  

Ships meant to be long-term sustainable are MUCH larger and/or have much smaller permanent populations.

Long-term sustainability for a Macross-class ship meant a population of about 10,000 according to Macross Chronicle.  The Megaroad-class was 50% larger than its predecessor and devoted most of its structure to a cityscape, but for long-term sustainability the population was constrained to about 25,000 at launch.  Even then, the living conditions those early emigrant ships offered were uncomfortable enough in the long term that rioting on emigrant ships occurred often enough for the New UN Government to launch a program dedicated to developing countermeasures for it (the Sharon-type AI).  The quest for improved quality-of-life for space emigrants meant building ever-bigger, ever more-advanced emigrant ships that offered progressively more of the comforts of home.  There was the City-class that offered highrise living to a population of ~350,000 and a bevy of auxiliary ships joined by the Milky Road system allowing emigrants to literally get outside and go somewhere else when the cityscape started to pall.  That was followed by the larger and more advanced Mainland-type and then the complete ecosystem-in-a-bottle that was the 5th Generation Island Cluster-class where the New UN Gov't pulled out all the stops and started maximizing comfort by overbuilding the hell out of its emigrant ships until they were launching at barely a tenth of their nominal capacity while still carrying millions and millions of people.

 

33 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

I think the reason why so many people have a hard time picturing the actual volume/living requirements is due to western civilian living conditions bias.  Anyone who has spent time in crowded cities, or aboard a warship understands how big a small space can actually be when used appropriately.  Of course in Western Sci-Fi we often see the opposite issue, massive ships with tiny crews, look at any of the Enterprises from Star Trek.

This is true... though it's worth noting that the Federation Starfleet of Star Trek justifies this in much the same way as Macross's emigrant fleets.  Most of the Starfleet ships we see in the various Star Trek shows and movies have such small crews relative to their size because they're designed for long-duration deep space exploration and absolutely packed to the rafters with all of the scientific equipment, lab spaces, workshops, fuel, and miscellaneous supplies needed to operate away from support for long periods while ensuring their crews have at least a moderately comfortable standard of living.  Even then, we periodically see that rank still hath its privileges in terms of living space with a few ships depicting communal bunkrooms for enlisted personnel and junior officers doubling up in small cabins.

[RedWolf]

I was wondering why it is said the VA-14 was made with a bigger fuselage for Zentradi pilots. Since we never saw it on screen our only reference is the Az-130 Panzerzorn. Then I realize there are Terran-Zentradi hybrids like Ernest Johnson and Ian Cromwell. They are not full sized Zentradi but they are not typically sized Miclones either. So the VA-14 is for really big guys to pilot.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

I was wondering why it is said the VA-14 was made with a bigger fuselage for Zentradi pilots. Since we never saw it on screen our only reference is the Az-130 Panzerzorn. Then I realize there are Terran-Zentradi hybrids like Ernest Johnson and Ian Cromwell. They are not full sized Zentradi but they are not typically sized Miclones either. So the VA-14 is for really big guys to pilot.

I'm not sure that follows, TBH.

Putting aside the mundane reasons that an Attacker variant of the VF-14 would need a larger frame like expanded payload capacity for its role, part-Zentradi like Ernest Johnson and Ian Cromwell are statisical outliers.  The vast majority of part- or full-Zentradi miclones we've seen are within Human norms for height.  For example, Milia and the spy trio in the original series, Guld in Macross Plus, the rescued population of Macross 5 in Macross 7, etc.  Mylene's 153cm tall, on the short side even for a Human.  Nene Rora is the tallest of the Zentradi girls in Frontier and she's only 170cm in a miclone state, and part-Zentradi Michael Blanc and Brera Sterne are both about her height.  Hayate's Zentradi foreman in Delta's first episode is maybe a head taller than him and Hayate's 169cm tall and Mirage is 165cm.  Chelsea Scarlett, Naresuan, Angers 672, and Takeru in Macross the Ride are also normal human sized, as is Moaramia in Macross M3 and Mariafokina Barnrose and Timothy Daldhanton in VF-X2.

From practically the entire body of evidence, Zentradi miclones might tend to be a bit on the tall side by Human standards but almost none of them are 200cm+ giants even when micloned.

[pengbuzz]

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm not sure that follows, TBH.

Putting aside the mundane reasons that an Attacker variant of the VF-14 would need a larger frame like expanded payload capacity for its role, part-Zentradi like Ernest Johnson and Ian Cromwell are statisical outliers.  The vast majority of part- or full-Zentradi miclones we've seen are within Human norms for height.  For example, Milia and the spy trio in the original series, Guld in Macross Plus, the rescued population of Macross 5 in Macross 7, etc.  Mylene's 153cm tall, on the short side even for a Human.  Nene Rora is the tallest of the Zentradi girls in Frontier and she's only 170cm in a miclone state, and part-Zentradi Michael Blanc and Brera Sterne are both about her height.  Hayate's Zentradi foreman in Delta's first episode is maybe a head taller than him and Hayate's 169cm tall and Mirage is 165cm.  Chelsea Scarlett, Naresuan, Angers 672, and Takeru in Macross the Ride are also normal human sized, as is Moaramia in Macross M3 and Mariafokina Barnrose and Timothy Daldhanton in VF-X2.

From practically the entire body of evidence, Zentradi miclones might tend to be a bit on the tall side by Human standards but almost none of them are 200cm+ giants even when micloned.

But when micloned, it's infinitely easier for them to shop for clothing.

[TG Remix]

3 hours ago, RedWolf said:

I was wondering why it is said the VA-14 was made with a bigger fuselage for Zentradi pilots. Since we never saw it on screen our only reference is the Az-130 Panzerzorn. Then I realize there are Terran-Zentradi hybrids like Ernest Johnson and Ian Cromwell. They are not full sized Zentradi but they are not typically sized Miclones either. So the VA-14 is for really big guys to pilot.

Reading that I assumed the VA-14 was made bulkier then the VF-14 because Zentradi overall preferred something less fragile like the VF-11 and more durable that can last longer in endurance, like Zentradi technology usually is. Though if it's supposed to be a heavier version of the VF-14 (Which checks out with Kawamori's finalized design), it feels weird since it was already considered a Heavy fighter to begin with.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

But when micloned, it's infinitely easier for them to shop for clothing.

True.

Some of the strangest discussions I've had with fellow fans came in the wake of Macross Frontier's release, when episode No.5 "Star Date" left me and a friend on an engineering tangent figuring out the physics of Zentradi clothing.  It all started with her joking about the real proof of overtechnology materials being the underwire in (macro) Klan's bra, and ended with us poring over material strength metrics trying to figure out the ridiculous forces and material strengths involved in making something like high heels for a woman 9 meters tall.

We ended up with a number of horrifying conclusions, including that a probable reason Zentradi are not allowed to live as giants in many emigrant fleets has to do with the sheer amount of damage sartorial decisions could inflict in key infrastructure like roads, sewers, and "underground" utility conduits.

(And as a nearly 2m tall man, I can attest it's hard enough to find proper-fitting trousers as a taller miclone... Zentradi in society will certainly redefine the meaning of "big and tall" in the context of clothiers.)

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Reading that I assumed the VA-14 was made bulkier then the VF-14 because Zentradi overall preferred something less fragile like the VF-11 and more durable that can last longer in endurance, like Zentradi technology usually is. Though if it's supposed to be a heavier version of the VF-14 (Which checks out with Kawamori's finalized design), it feels weird since it was already considered a Heavy fighter to begin with.

The VF-11 was by no means "fragile".  AFAIK, I don't think they've ever been explicitly described as less durable than the VF-14.  The VF-14 being so much larger than the VF-11 has a lot to do with it being designed primarily as a space fighter rather than an all-regime fighter like the VF-11.  The engine technology available at the time the VF-14 was developed was the same initial generation thermonuclear reaction engine technology used on the two previous generations of VFs.  That meant that, minus tuning and some improvement in materials, boosting engine power meant building a bigger, thirstier engine.  That meant a bigger airframe to house it and bigger fuel tanks to feed it.  Achieving the desired results when it came to space cruising range without FAST Packs meant a very large airframe with a lot of internal room for fuel.  Having such a roomy airframe also made maintenance access to key systems easier and made packaging improvements and customizations a lot more forgiving.  

It was that combination of attributes - FAST Pack-free space cruising range, payload capacity, and ease of maintenance/upgrade - that made the VF-14 so desired by a certain type of emigrant government.  

It should also be noted that the "VA-14" is NOT the fighter seen in "Spiritia Dreaming".  We've never seen a VA-14, and at this rate we likely never will.  

[Seto Kaiba]

  

2 hours ago, TehPW said:

anyway, that term (AIMD) had to come from a Sailor talking about work in public (because unless someone got to actually visit the Carrier inport at that time, i find it incredulous that the production staff would coin the phrase ARMD out of their butts and literally just a single letter difference). 

While the final acronym is almost certainly for the sake of the aforementioned lame joke, the inspiration is again a LOT more mundane and obvious.

The ARMD-class was originally conceived as a combination of a space station airbase for Valkyrie squadrons in orbit and an Auxiliary Floating Dock for servicing smaller UN Spacy warships (e.g. the Oberth-class).  Its design was inspired by real world Auxiliary Floating Docks (being one turned upside-down), and its hull classification symbol of "ARMD" is inspired by those of the real world mobile Auxiliary Repair Dock (Medium) for servicing destroyers, submarines, and other light escorts which was "ARDM".  

 

[TG Remix]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We ended up with a number of horrifying conclusions, including that a probable reason Zentradi are not allowed to live as giants in many emigrant fleets has to do with the sheer amount of damage sartorial decisions could inflict in key infrastructure like roads, sewers, and "underground" utility conduits.

Somehow the biggest piece of evidence that Frontier was the really rich colony out of the rich colonies. I bet not even Zentradi-only colonies would go this hard with macronized Zentradi life. 😆 Though Exsedol and Veffidas (at least before Fire Bomber) managed to live as giants in colonies, though that's almost definitely the minority.

 

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It should also be noted that the "VA-14" is NOT the fighter seen in "Spiritia Dreaming".  We've never seen a VA-14, and at this rate we likely never will.  

Being one out of 10 Zentradi fans in the world is just constant pain, I just want more Zentradi based Valkyries. Or series. Or characters who won't be red shirts/evil. Anything for that matter. 😭

 

Jokes aside, I had a stray thought about Eden. I'm kinda surprised that Macross Plus made a entirely fictional planet instead of using Proxima Centauri's exoplanets as the first space colony since the mass immigration, since it's been well known to exist since 1915 and the "close" proximity it is from Earth.

Edited November 27, 2022 by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Somehow the biggest piece of evidence that Frontier was the really rich colony out of the rich colonies. I bet not even Zentradi-only colonies would go this hard with macronized Zentradi life. 😆 Though Exsedol and Veffidas (at least before Fire Bomber) managed to live as giants in colonies, though that's almost definitely the minority.

Not just that... look at the price tag on those shoes in "Star Date".

It's mostly written in Zentradi, but the red text there says these shoes are on sale and the price is 3,679,000.  The lack of a decimal point suggests that the Frontier fleet's currency is something akin to Yen.  If we were to assume that was Japanese Yen, at the time the show was made the exchange rate to US Dollars would make that one pair of heels cost a whopping $35,318.  Those shoes cost more than a new car, by a considerable margin.

The amount of force those heels would be under would require special materials similar to those used in starship hulls or armor plating to withstand the forces of walking, there'd be no hope at all of being able to walk on the grass, and the sidewalks would have to be specially reinforced to handle the astonishing pressures involved.

 

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Being one out of 10 Zentradi fans in the world is just constant pain, I just want more Zentradi based Valkyries. Or series. Or characters who won't be red shirts/evil. Anything for that matter. 😭

It's not like they've completely hung you out to dry... there's Ernest Johnson, Mirage, Mylene, Milia, Komilia, etc.

 

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Jokes aside, I had a stray thought about Eden. I'm kinda surprised that Macross Plus made a entirely fictional planet instead of using Proxima Centauri's exoplanets as the first space colony since the mass immigration, since it's been well known to exist since 1915 and the "close" proximity it is from Earth.

Proxima Centauri, Alpha Centauri, Epsilon Eridani, and 40 Eridani are like THE low-hanging fruit of science fiction exoplanet star systems.

Proxima Centauri is probably the most used and abused in all of sci-fi due to it being closer to Earth than any other star besides Sol.

I can imagine that Macross's creators would want to avoid reaching for that particular low-hanging fruit, and instead went for creating a fictional exoplanet orbiting a real but rather obscure star Groombridge 1816.  I'm not sure why they picked that particular star, I'd have to reach out to an actual astronomer to figure out if there were anything special about it.

[TehPW]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

  

While the final acronym is almost certainly for the sake of the aforementioned lame joke, the inspiration is again a LOT more mundane and obvious.

The ARMD-class was originally conceived as a combination of a space station airbase for Valkyrie squadrons in orbit and an Auxiliary Floating Dock for servicing smaller UN Spacy warships (e.g. the Oberth-class).  Its design was inspired by real world Auxiliary Floating Docks (being one turned upside-down), and its hull classification symbol of "ARMD" is inspired by those of the real world mobile Auxiliary Repair Dock (Medium) for servicing destroyers, submarines, and other light escorts which was "ARDM".  

 

yeah, the docks... That seems far more plausible (and gives an excellent explanation to the empty space under the vessel: You park an Oberth in there)...

[TG Remix]

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The amount of force those heels would be under would require special materials similar to those used in starship hulls or armor plating to withstand the forces of walking, there'd be no hope at all of being able to walk on the grass, and the sidewalks would have to be specially reinforced to handle the astonishing pressures involved.

That's actually kind of impressive, if not mildly disturbing.

 

5 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's not like they've completely hung you out to dry... there's Ernest Johnson, Mirage, Mylene, Milia, Komilia, etc.

You know what, those are very good points and characters I do like. And even though The Ride isn't translated in any compacity (that I know of) I do like Chelsea and her unique struggles from what I can gather.

 

6 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Proxima Centauri, Alpha Centauri, Epsilon Eridani, and 40 Eridani are like THE low-hanging fruit of science fiction exoplanet star systems.

Proxima Centauri is probably the most used and abused in all of sci-fi due to it being closer to Earth than any other star besides Sol.

 

Really now? Guess I haven't been in that particular bubble of sci-fi to say otherwise, but I can see how it could be.

 

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

can imagine that Macross's creators would want to avoid reaching for that particular low-hanging fruit, and instead went for creating a fictional exoplanet orbiting a real but rather obscure star Groombridge 1816.  I'm not sure why they picked that particular star, I'd have to reach out to an actual astronomer to figure out if there were anything special about it.

That's a very good point. Apparently there is a unconfirmed planet under the star's habitable zone from observations in 1989, so there's a possibility they grabbed that chance when it revealed itself.

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, TehPW said:

yeah, the docks... That seems far more plausible (and gives an excellent explanation to the empty space under the vessel: You park an Oberth in there)...

The oldest version of the lore mentions that the ARMD-class was originally conceived as a space station that would serve as a floating dock for space warships and an airbase for space fighters operating in Earth's planetary defenses.  The intent was to park them in Earth's geostationary orbit and near any facilities at the Lagrange points as the backbone of Earth's space-based defenses.  The UN Forces repurposed the design as a space aircraft carrier after plans for a much larger 800m-class carrier fell so far behind it was judged to be unrecoverable.  

Later versions of the lore kept pretty much everything except the proposed and subsequently cancelled 800m-class carrier.

Both old and new versions of the lore indicate the UN Spacy's L5 Frontline Station is the original design the ARMD-class was derived from.

 

Just now, TG Remix said:

That's actually kind of impressive, if not mildly disturbing.

Most statistics involving the Zentradi are a little shocking.

That statistically average Zentradi woman?  She weighs 7,750kg.  

 

Just now, TG Remix said:

Really now? Guess I haven't been in that particular bubble of sci-fi to say otherwise, but I can see how it could be.

Oh, it's everywhere.  40 Eridani is the location of Vulcan in Star Trek and of Richese and Ix in Dune, for instance.

Proxima Centauri has an Earth colony orbiting it in Babylon 5, a Starfleet ship yard is there in Star Trek, it was the destination of the titular ship in Event Horizon, and the all-Newtype colony-turned-generation-ship Dandelion c. UC 0653 in Mobile Suit Victory Gundam: Outside Story.  It's also home to an Earth colony named Liberte in Southern Cross.

Alpha Centauri is one suspected candidate for the original homeworld of humanity in Asimov's Foundation series, the location of the first human extrasolar colony in Larry Niven's Known Space series, it's the destination of the Jupiter 2 in Lost in Space, home to one of Earth's pre-Federation colonies in Star Trek, etc. etc.

Epsilon Eridani is the star Glorie orbits in Southern Cross, is home to a Federation colony in Star Trek, it's an Earth colony in Halo, etc.

[snakerbot]

7 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Alpha Centauri is one suspected candidate for the original homeworld of humanity in Asimov's Foundation series, the location of the first human extrasolar colony in Larry Niven's Known Space series, it's the destination of the Jupiter 2 in Lost in Space, home to one of Earth's pre-Federation colonies in Star Trek, etc. etc.

Also Cybertron in some of the Transformers continuities.

[pengbuzz]

47 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Most statistics involving the Zentradi are a little shocking.

That statistically average Zentradi woman?  She weighs 7,750kg. 

In that case, you could probably flatter her by telling her she looks like she's lost a ton of weight.

 

47 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Proxima Centauri has an Earth colony orbiting it in Babylon 5, a Starfleet ship yard is there in Star Trek, it was the destination of the titular ship in Event Horizon, and the all-Newtype colony-turned-generation-ship Dandelion c. UC 0653 in Mobile Suit Victory Gundam: Outside Story.  It's also home to an Earth colony named Liberte in Southern Cross.

Alpha Centauri is one suspected candidate for the original homeworld of humanity in Asimov's Foundation series, the location of the first human extrasolar colony in Larry Niven's Known Space series, it's the destination of the Jupiter 2 in Lost in Space, home to one of Earth's pre-Federation colonies in Star Trek, etc. etc.

Admittedly, in the Star Trek story I had written and illustrated, Proxima was the fleet yards location, and there was a Starbase orbiting AC IV.

(yes folks, it's show and tell time!)

[TehPW]

On Zent Fems: What would it be if she was, ahem..... THICC?

It's probably Khan Klang I'm thinking off, actually.

 

o>O Pen you have WAAAAAAY too much time.

Alpha Centauri = Rigel Kentarus in the battletech setting. Somewhere along the line, the name has been changed twice (I just can't find a reason why, but it's not without precedent: Carver V = Liberty and the Comstar/WoB Hidden 5)

But that art you did: Screams!!!!

Edited November 27, 2022 by TehPW

[pengbuzz]

43 minutes ago, TehPW said:

On Zent Fems: What would it be if she was, ahem..... THICC?

It's probably Khan Klang I'm thinking off, actually.

 

o>O Pen you have WAAAAAAY too much time.

Alpha Centauri = Rigel Kentarus in the battletech setting. Somewhere along the line, the name has been changed twice (I just can't find a reason why, but it's not without precedent: Carver V = Liberty and the Comstar/WoB Hidden 5)

But that art you did: Screams!!!!

Oh, that? It was just 45 minutes in Photoshop.... not much really.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TehPW said:

On Zent Fems: What would it be if she was, ahem..... THICC?

It's probably Khan Klang I'm thinking off, actually.

... still not the weirdest question I've gotten in that line of inquiry.

Hard to say, though, since Klan Klan's height... varies.  If we were to assume that her official line art represents her correct scaling, she should not be particularly large or heavy.

Line art published on the Macross Chronicle Character Sheet for her wingmen Raramia and Nene shows that, in her normal/giant state she is pretty exactly between those two in terms of height.  We know how tall they are, so splitting that difference is easy enough.  Miclone Nene is 170cm and miclone Raramia is 165cm.  So a Klan Klan who was halfway between them in height would be 167.5cm tall... or 5 feet 6 inches for the users of Imperial measurement.  Klan is as athletic as you'd expect a professional soldier to be, so we'd be able to safely assume she's probably of average weight for her height.  That's about 61.7kg or 136lb.  (I checked this against a lady friend who has similar proportions to Klan, and it more or less tallies +/- about 6lb and 2 inches of height.)

That'd make "Macro Klan" around 8.375m tall and around 7,712.5kg in weight.

Of course, of all the Zentradi characters thus far her size as fluctuated the most.  In the hangar scene where she's first introduced she's around the correct height of approximately 8.375m but in a number of other scenes she's depicted as being MUCH larger... including one scene where she's arguing with Michael's curiously emotive VF-25G battroid in space and seems to be as tall or even slightly taller than it is (~14.53m).

[Bolt]

I just realized, I can't recall any VF's using countermeasures like flares or chaff or decoys , to confuse incoming missiles..I'm sure this has been discussed before. But it seems to be an inexpensive way (possibly) to avoid missiles.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Bolt

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

I just realized, I can't recall any VF's using countermeasures like flares or chaff or decoys , to confuse incoming missiles..I'm sure this has been discussed before. But it seems to be an inexpensive way (possibly) to avoid missiles.

Three examples come to mind:

1) SDFM: Max vs Miria battle (where the battle progresses from over the ocean to inside the SDF)—it's literally blink or you miss it.

2) Macross Plus (OVA edition): opening battle in the asteroid belt.

3) Macross Frontier first episode: Vajra(!) use countermeasures to stop missiles (admittedly not a VF, but it was stopping VF-launched missiles. )

 

The frustrating truth is that by and large, flares/chaff/decoys are not focused on when used, and are literally blink-and-you-miss-it.  Nevertheless, all VFs come with a full set of them.  The VF-0 also comes with a tow-able decoy (the AN/ALE-55 FOTD [Fiber-optic Towed Decoy]).  Not that we ever see it in action, though.

Edited December 1, 2022 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

57 minutes ago, Bolt said:

I just realized, I can't recall any VF's using countermeasures like flares or chaff or decoys , to confuse incoming missiles..I'm sure this has been discussed before. But it seems to be an inexpensive way (possibly) to avoid missiles.

While they're seldom shown being used, VFs do have countermeasure dispensers for things like chaff and flares.

The one instance that sticks out in my memory most clearly is in Macross Plus.  During Isamu and Guld's dogfight on Earth, there is a shot of Isamu using chaff containers against some missiles Guld launches.

Tech manuals like Master File and Sky Angels do mention countermeasure dispensers for chaff and flares as a standard feature.  The VF-1's countermeasure dispenser is in the fighter's "backpack", while other VFs keep theirs in the legs.

[pengbuzz]

2 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

While they're seldom shown being used, VFs do have countermeasure dispensers for things like chaff and flares.

The one instance that sticks out in my memory most clearly is in Macross Plus.  During Isamu and Guld's dogfight on Earth, there is a shot of Isamu using chaff containers against some missiles Guld launches.

Tech manuals like Master File and Sky Angels do mention countermeasure dispensers for chaff and flares as a standard feature.  The VF-1's countermeasure dispenser is in the fighter's "backpack", while other VFs keep theirs in the legs.

And of course, Petit Cola can dispensers in the valk's legs, in case there are little kids whining at airshows.

[Bolt]

Thanks for the clarity. It makes sense to have physical countermeasures, I believe. I do recall it being prominently used in Zero, at the beginning, when Shin is dogfights in his F-14. But could not remember much else. With all the Itano circus going on in Macross, the absence of physical countermeasures is quite noticeable..

[Bolt]

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The one instance that sticks out in my memory most clearly is in Macross Plus.  During Isamu and Guld's dogfight on Earth, there is a shot of Isamu using chaff containers against some missiles Guld launches.

Oh yes!

[JB0]

3 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Thanks for the clarity. It makes sense to have physical countermeasures, I believe. I do recall it being prominently used in Zero, at the beginning, when Shin is dogfights in his F-14. But could not remember much else. With all the Itano circus going on in Macross, the absence of physical countermeasures is quite noticeable..

Zero also showed the more direct countermeasures with the VF-0's head turret gunning down incoming missiles.

[Seto Kaiba]

The most likely (in-universe) reason that countermeasures aren't used more often is that many types of missiles used in the series have multiple guidance systems.  Especially the long-ranged missiles, which often have three separate guidance systems working in concert... usually radar (bolstered by powerful ECCM to overcome active stealth), infrared, and TV.  

Flares would be the most useful countermeasure, since micro-missiles tend to be exclusively infrared-guided.