Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[twich]

Okay, so in between patient charting at work, a question popped into my head. How powerful are the energy weapon gun pods for the mecha of Macross Delta? In Frontier, you have VF’s with 4 engines to power the gun pods, or in the case of the YF-27-5, and underwing mounted thermonuclear generator. In Delta, the valks each have 2 thermonuclear reaction engines, but they both seem to have a power generation build up before firing, ala VF-27 grenade shot or Macross cannon firing....so how do they compare to gun pods of the VF-27, YF-29, YF-30? I think that the weapons for the mecha of Delta are cool, just with that the VF-27 was designed with a smaller gun pod with the same power, which had me wondering if Delta did just that....what are people’s thoughts?

twich

[Seto Kaiba]

15 minutes ago, twich said:

Okay, so in between patient charting at work, a question popped into my head. How powerful are the energy weapon gun pods for the mecha of Macross Delta?

Very... but we don't have the necessary information to put an actual number to it.

The heavy quantum beam gunpods used in Macross Frontier and Macross Delta are quite shockingly destructive, with the charged "beam grenade" shot being able to inflict significant damage on small warships (or defenseless medium-sized ones).

 

15 minutes ago, twich said:

In Frontier, you have VF’s with 4 engines to power the gun pods, or in the case of the YF-27-5, and underwing mounted thermonuclear generator. In Delta, the valks each have 2 thermonuclear reaction engines, but they both seem to have a power generation build up before firing, ala VF-27 grenade shot or Macross cannon firing....so how do they compare to gun pods of the VF-27, YF-29, YF-30? I think that the weapons for the mecha of Delta are cool, just with that the VF-27 was designed with a smaller gun pod with the same power, which had me wondering if Delta did just that....what are people’s thoughts?

Without quantitative measurements of the various beam gunpod outputs, we can't really say how they compare with certainty...

IIRC, it's never really properly established why the VF-27's beam gunpod is so large.  It's practically all barrel too, the actual body of the gun doesn't seem to be much larger than those of the other beam gunpods.  If I had to guess, I'd assume it's probably meant to facilitate higher-powered discharges more than anything, though the regular shots don't seem to have any more stopping power than those of the more compact models that followed it.  The VF-31's beam gunpod seems to lack a beam grenade mode though.

[sketchley]

29 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

IIRC, it's never really properly established why the VF-27's beam gunpod is so large.  It's practically all barrel too, the actual body of the gun doesn't seem to be much larger than those of the other beam gunpods.  If I had to guess, I'd assume it's probably meant to facilitate higher-powered discharges more than anything, though the regular shots don't seem to have any more stopping power than those of the more compact models that followed it.  The VF-31's beam gunpod seems to lack a beam grenade mode though.

There appears to be fold quartz in the widened tip of the VF-27's beam gun pod.

What effect that has on anything is unclear (used in enhancing the discharge?  extra capacitor space for charging the beam grenade?  involved with producing/manipulating heavy quantum?), but it may be why the barrel is so long.

[deathzealot]

6 hours ago, sketchley said:

There appears to be fold quartz in the widened tip of the VF-27's beam gun pod.

What effect that has on anything is unclear (used in enhancing the discharge?  extra capacitor space for charging the beam grenade?  involved with producing/manipulating heavy quantum?), but it may be why the barrel is so long.

Did not know that. Though I am not all that surprised since a pet theory I have is that the major reason for the non-watered down version of the VF-24 to be superior over that of the Messiah and the other related fighters is that it uses Fold Quartz in other places on the fighter outside of the ISC.

[sketchley]

39 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Did not know that. Though I am not all that surprised since a pet theory I have is that the major reason for the non-watered down version of the VF-24 to be superior over that of the Messiah and the other related fighters is that it uses Fold Quartz in other places on the fighter outside of the ISC.

Details on the VF-24 are light, but one thing that has been said is that the ISC used in the VF-24 is superior to the version they shared with the Emigrant Fleets, planets, etc.  How much of a difference?  Even with EX-gear, the VF-25* doesn't come close.  The VF-27, on the other hand, does.  HOWEVER, the pilot needs to be a cyber-grunt (the Macross version of a cyborg) using BDI.  And even then, my impression is that the VF-24's ISC provides even more G resistance.

* that's 27.5 G for 120 seconds.

So, the higher the G resistance, the sharper the Valkyrie can turn.  In other words, there's a direct correlation between G resistance and sustained manoeuvrability (nevermind about the airframe incurring damage.  Apparently the VF-19 can handle +35.5 to -20.0 G.  The pilot... less than 1/3 of that!  )

 

I haven't read anything about the VF-24 using fold quartz in other places outside of the ISC.  The main limit on manoeuvrability for the Valkyries in the preceding generations was  the G resistance of the pilot's body.

I've got a list of the G resistance technology introduced in Macross here (keep in mind that green is official, black is best guess [made up]): http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics/Avionics/CockpitANDantiG.php

[jeniusornome]

Hmm. So is the VF-24 the unicorn VF? Nothing else since has been able to match it because NUNS won’t share?

[Bolt]

The VF-27 and YF-29 are both creations made from leaked YF-24 info . But still are apparently inferior. We all know NUNS covets the good sh*t so as to maintain superiority over rouge or rebellious elements. 

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, sketchley said:

There appears to be fold quartz in the widened tip of the VF-27's beam gun pod.

Not just at the tip... in episode 17 when Brera is explaining the Vajra's adaptive abilities, his VF-27's gunpod has what appears to be two rows of fold quartz inserts on either side of its split barrel.  The scene in question is about 17:30 in the episode.  I'm writing on my tablet, so I can't take a screencap right now (because I can't figure out how to screencap on this thing).

 

Quote

What effect that has on anything is unclear (used in enhancing the discharge?  extra capacitor space for charging the beam grenade?  involved with producing/manipulating heavy quantum?), but it may be why the barrel is so long.

Given what we know about the (military) applications of fold quartz, that's presumably to generate the heavy quantum or produce the fold waves are used to excite/manipulate the heavy quantum.  If it's the former, with such a long barrel then its beam grenade ought to be much larger and more powerful than that of smaller beam gunpods.

 

4 hours ago, deathzealot said:

Did not know that. Though I am not all that surprised since a pet theory I have is that the major reason for the non-watered down version of the VF-24 to be superior over that of the Messiah and the other related fighters is that it uses Fold Quartz in other places on the fighter outside of the ISC.

As far as we know, that doesn't appear to be the case.

Earth, as the economic and political center of the universe, simply has the most resources and therefore the best toys.  They likely have an Inertia Store Converter that's much more advanced and powerful than the ones emigrant fleets can produce, and the cash and manufacturing power to go all-in on redonkulously powerful Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines of the type which gave the YF-30 a thrust-to-weight ratio in excess of 50:1.  With their more advanced technology, there's no telling what other highly advanced bells and whistles the VF-24 might have compared to the redacted YF-24 Evolution spec that was shared with emigrant governments.

 

48 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

Hmm. So is the VF-24 the unicorn VF? Nothing else since has been able to match it because NUNS won’t share?

Kinda?  The period of unrest in the late 2030s and 2040s between the central New Unification Government and the various member worlds and fleets, combined with Isamu and Guld's little stunt in 2040, led to arms export restrictions aimed at ensuring the central NUNS would remain The Biggest Stick.  That's part of why the VF-19 and VF-22 never achieved widespread adoption and instead a third design (the VF-171) became the next (manned) main VF of the NUNS.

The Earth/Central New UN Forces shared an incomplete version of the YF-24 Evolution spec with the emigrant fleets and planetary governments under the New UN Government's technology-sharing mandates... the parts they left out are the parts which made the YF-24 Evolution and VF-24 so incredibly powerful.  The emigrant governments have the general picture, but had to fill in the various blanks with their own versions of certain technologies... which is how we got the VF-25, YF-26, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31.

 

37 minutes ago, Bolt said:

The VF-27 and YF-29 are both creations made from leaked YF-24 info . But still are apparently inferior. We all know NUNS covets the good sh*t so as to maintain superiority over rouge or rebellious elements. 

Not leaked... deliberately shared, albeit in an incomplete form.  All 5th Generation VFs are derived in one way or another from the YF-24 Evolution spec, including the VF-25, YF-26, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31, etc.  

You may be thinking of the VF-27, which was based on the YF-24 Evolution but completed using development data leaked from the Macross Frontier fleet's YF-29 program by LAI.

 

 

Bleh... after much grumbling and arguing with my webhost, I've got the new domain(s) for my new project set up and secured.  They dragged that out for WAY longer than was necessary or sane.  Now I can finally start uploading test versions of the pages.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[deathzealot]

6 hours ago, sketchley said:

I haven't read anything about the VF-24 using fold quartz in other places outside of the ISC.  The main limit on manoeuvrability for the Valkyries in the preceding generations was  the G resistance of the pilot's body.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As far as we know, that doesn't appear to be the case.

Shrug. Just a pet theory I had since I did remember reading something about fold quartz being used elsewhere on a Valkyrie. I didn't remember what it was exactly till it was mentioned earlier in this thread about the fold quartz in the gunpod of the VF-27. Then I was like maybe I did actually read that somewhere either earlier in this thread or on Seito's Valkyrie Thread on Mechatalk. Still I wouldn't be surprised if say fold quartz was used in the VF-24's engines to further enhance them or like the Lucifer having it in their weapons. Again just a pet theory/head canon I had really.

Still though. I am actually curious on how they went from a large ISC from the earlier YF-24 prototype till the second YF-24 prototype which had a smaller ISC that was quite superior all within what a few years if I remember correctly.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

VF-25, YF-26, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31

You know I never even noticed but we are missing the YF/VF-28. I know that the YF-26 was Macross Olympia's failed entry to Project Triangler and I know that there is a YF-23 mentioned somewhere if I remembers Seito's earlier Generation Chart correctly but I don't think we have clue about a -28 model Valkyrie just yet. Maybe another colony or colony fleet out there created their own derivative of the YF-24 Evolution sometime during or slightly after Triangler. Hmmm... an interesting thought.

Edited May 10, 2020 by deathzealot

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, deathzealot said:

Shrug. Just a pet theory I had since I did remember reading something about fold quartz being used elsewhere on a Valkyrie. I didn't remember what it was exactly till it was mentioned earlier in this thread about the fold quartz in the gunpod of the VF-27. Then I was like maybe I did actually read that somewhere either earlier in this thread or on Seito's Valkyrie Thread on Mechatalk. Still I wouldn't be surprised if say fold quartz was used in the VF-24's engines to further enhance them or like the Lucifer having it in their weapons. Again just a pet theory/head canon I had really.

Oh, it's absolutely possible to use fold quartz to boost a thermonuclear reaction turbine engine's performance.

The first instance of this that was depicted was the YF-29's Fold Wave System in Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye, which enabled the fighter to draw energy out of fold space to supplement its reactor output.  The YF-30 Chronos has an improved version of this technology called the Fold Dimensional Resonance System.  The VF-31 custom Siegfrieds inherited the YF-29's Fold Wave System, albeit apparently with reduced application of fold quartz and seemingly a less extreme performance boost.  These two systems improve more than just the engine output though, they also provide additional power to run things like energy conversion armor and pinpoint barriers in fighter mode.

The Sv-262 Draken III is, as far as we know, the first production aircraft to include a fold wave performance-enhancement.  Its Fold Reheat is a different, more focused application that exclusively improves engine output... but provides up to twice the percentage improvement in engine performance provided by the Xaos custom VF-31's Fold Wave System (25-30% instead of 15%).  The Fold Reheat is present on both variants of the Draken III, though the Sv-262Hs command specification offers 5% more improvement in output vs. the version on the standard Ba model.

 

Just now, deathzealot said:

Still though. I am actually curious on how they went from a large ISC from the earlier YF-24 prototype till the second YF-24 prototype which had a smaller ISC that was quite superior all within what a few years.

Actually, it's one of the longest development cycles in Macross... it took something like 15 years to mature and miniaturize the technology from the start of the YF-24 program in 2040 to the rollout of the Evolution prototype in 2055.  It's a pretty impressive jump, all told.  From 2G for 5 seconds to 27.5G for 120 seconds.

 

Just now, deathzealot said:

You know I never even noticed but we are missing the YF/VF-28. I know that the YF-26 was Macross Olympia's failed entry to Project Triangler and I know that there is a YF-23 mentioned somewhere if I remembers Seito's earlier Generation Chart correctly but I don't think we have clue about a -28 model Valkyrie just yet. Maybe another colony or colony fleet out there created their own derivative of the YF-24 Evolution sometime during or slightly after Triangler. Hmmm... an interesting thought.

Thus far, there hasn't been any mention of a YF-23.

There is a mention of a possible YF-28 in Macross the Ride in connection with the YF-29 development data Macross Galaxy illicitly obtained from the Macross Frontier fleet via LAI... though ultimately the data was used in the completion of the VF-27.

[deathzealot]

7 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Oh, it's absolutely possible to use fold quartz to boost a thermonuclear reaction turbine engine's performance.

The first instance of this that was depicted was the YF-29's Fold Wave System in Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye, which enabled the fighter to draw energy out of fold space to supplement its reactor output.  The YF-30 Chronos has an improved version of this technology called the Fold Dimensional Resonance System.  The VF-31 custom Siegfrieds inherited the YF-29's Fold Wave System, albeit apparently with reduced application of fold quartz and seemingly a less extreme performance boost.  These two systems improve more than just the engine output though, they also provide additional power to run things like energy conversion armor and pinpoint barriers in fighter mode.

The Sv-262 Draken III is, as far as we know, the first production aircraft to include a fold wave performance-enhancement.  Its Fold Reheat is a different, more focused application that exclusively improves engine output... but provides up to twice the percentage improvement in engine performance provided by the Xaos custom VF-31's Fold Wave System (25-30% instead of 15%).  The Fold Reheat is present on both variants of the Draken III, though the Sv-262Hs command specification offers 5% more improvement in output vs. the version on the standard Ba model.

Huh. I knew about those systems since like mentioned I have been following this thread, read a few bits of sketchley's website, and have read your Valkyrie Thread on Mechatalk a couple times. What I did not know or most likely remember being mentioned were those systems using fold quartz to do all that. So it would it would safe to say that the VF-24 would have similar yet vastly superior system. My head canon is somewhat correct in this. Nice to know.

11 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Actually, it's one of the longest development cycles in Macross... it took something like 15 years to mature and miniaturize the technology from the start of the YF-24 program in 2040 to the rollout of the Evolution prototype in 2055.  It's a pretty impressive jump, all told.  From 2G for 5 seconds to 27.5G for 120 seconds.

Groan. I really need to start taking notes of all of these little tidbits of information I find. I thought the first YF-24 was tested a few years before the second YF-24 in the early 2050s maybe very late 2040s. Wait. Project Super Nova was around 2040. Why did they have a YF-24 Program when they were already testing two brand-new fighters?

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Thus far, there hasn't been any mention of a YF-23.

There is a mention of a possible YF-28 in Macross the Ride in connection with the YF-29 development data Macross Galaxy illicitly obtained from the Macross Frontier fleet via LAI... though ultimately the data was used in the completion of the VF-27.

Huh. I had them switched then. I had guessed that some far-off Colony Fleet or Colony like the far-flung Brisingr Alliance had received the Evolution specs and started to develop their own fighter based on them. Instead it is linked to the development of the YF-29 instead. Shrug. Oh well.

22 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Draken III

You know I have a couple questions about this fighter if you all don't mind answering. First of all, I do not recall them having Fold Boosters equipped when the Aerial Knights did their earlier interventions against Walkure during the early episodes of the series. Therefore, how were they able to fold in and fold out of these battles without an equipped booster? Or did they actually have a booster and I do not notice them when watching those particular episodes. I know that later during the mid-point of the series they started to be carried through Fold Space by a carrier as the war against NUNS began, outside of the Intercept Mission against the NUNS Fleet after Heinz's coronation anyways.

Second, we know that Keith Aero Windermere piloted the Sv-262Hs variant of the fighter. The rest of the Aerial Knights are piloting the standard Sv-262Ba correct? I would think they would pilot the same fighter as Keith. Since the rest of the Windermere's pilots use the standard Draken III as well and the Aerial Knights are the elite of those pilots therefore should reflect that by piloting a better fighter.

Anyways. Thanks Seto for all of this interesting info. It is appreciated.

[Seto Kaiba]

24 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Huh. I knew about those systems since like mentioned I have been following this thread, read a few bits of sketchley's website, and have read your Valkyrie Thread on Mechatalk a couple times. What I did not know or most likely remember being mentioned were those systems using fold quartz to do all that. So it would it would safe to say that the VF-24 would have similar yet vastly superior system. My head canon is somewhat correct in this. Nice to know.

Well, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that one or more of the undisclosed technological advancements in the YF-24 Evolution was something along those lines... but we can't say that the VF-24's superior performance isn't simply due to more advanced conventional technologies and a better-designed ISC.

 

24 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Groan. I really need to start taking notes of all of these little tidbits of information I find.

Even I occasionally get details mixed up if I don't have my notes on hand.  

That's one of the reasons I'm taking advantage of this work-from-home situation to get back to work on my website project.  It's an opportunity to organize and systemize my notes and get 'em up for the world to view at their leisure.

 

24 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

I thought the first YF-24 was tested a few years before the second YF-24 in the early 2050s maybe very late 2040s. Wait. Project Super Nova was around 2040. Why did they have a YF-24 Program when they were already testing two brand-new fighters?

The YF-24 program was kicked off shortly after the New UN Government's first contact with the Vajra in 2040.

Whatever the incident entailed, it was enough of a shock for the New UN Government to conclude that even its latest main VFs were probably not up to the task of combating the Vajra and launch development of the next generation of variable fighters with a goal of being able to successfully oppose the Vajra if there should be a hostile confrontation.

 

24 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Huh. I had them switched then. I had guessed that some far-off Colony Fleet or Colony like the far-flung Brisingr Alliance had received the Evolution specs and started to develop their own fighter based on them. Instead it is linked to the development of the YF-29 instead. Shrug. Oh well.

The Brisingr Alliance's next-generation main fighter program started with Uroboros's YF-30 Chronos, which was a derivative of the YF-24 Evolution and YF-29.  They economized the hell out of it, to the point that it's down to around the VF-25's level and could reasonably be mass produced.

 

24 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

You know I have a couple questions about this fighter if you all don't mind answering. First of all, I do not recall them having Fold Boosters equipped when the Aerial Knights did their earlier interventions against Walkure during the early episodes of the series. Therefore, how were they able to fold in and fold out of these battles without an equipped booster? Or did they actually have a booster and I do not notice them when watching those particular episodes.

Yeah, they're not using fold boosters when they attack Al Shahal in Macross Delta's first episode.

The fold effect we see them emerge from is the distinctive one that's used for the ancient Protoculture ship Sigur Berrentzs, so presumably that ship is creating the space fold they're using to get around... possibly an extension of its ability to connect to and regulate the fold network in the ruins throughout the Brisingr cluster.

 

24 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Second, we know that Keith Aero Windermere piloted the Sv-262Hs variant of the fighter. The rest of the Aerial Knights are piloting the standard Sv-262Ba correct? I would think they would pilot the same fighter as Keith. Since the rest of the Windermere's pilots use the standard Draken III as well and the Aerial Knights are the elite of those pilots therefore should reflect that by piloting a better fighter.

Yeah, the Aerial Knights standard model used by Hermann, Bogue, Qasim, and the twins is the Sv-262Ba while Keith, as leader, has the Sv-262Hs.

This arrangement is likely something they inherited from the New UN Forces in the ~33 years they were a New UN Government member world.  One of those trends that comes and goes in VF design is whether or not to have a specific "command variant" with enhanced communication capabilities for squadron leaders or platoon leaders.  The members of a unit other than the commander wouldn't need the extra capabilities, so it wouldn't make sense to have an entire unit made up of just command variants if it meant depriving other units of the additional communications/coordination ability.

On the Sv-262, the actual difference in performance between the regular and command variant isn't very large.  There's a 5% better output from the fold reheat and some additional weaponry in the form of a pair of lasers, but other than that they're largely identical aircraft.

[deathzealot]

2 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that one or more of the undisclosed technological advancements in the YF-24 Evolution was something along those lines... but we can't say that the VF-24's superior performance isn't simply due to more advanced conventional technologies and a better-designed ISC.

True that.

2 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Even I occasionally get details mixed up if I don't have my notes on hand.  

That's one of the reasons I'm taking advantage of this work-from-home situation to get back to work on my website project.  It's an opportunity to organize and systemize my notes and get 'em up for the world to view at their leisure.

That would be great. I love Macross Mecha Manuel but it does not have the majority of this stuff therefore I would love to see a site that has some of your notes and such.

3 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The YF-24 program was kicked off shortly after the New UN Government's first contact with the Vajra in 2040.

Whatever the incident entailed, it was enough of a shock for the New UN Government to conclude that even its latest main VFs were probably not up to the task of combating the Vajra and launch development of the next generation of variable fighters with a goal of being able to successfully oppose the Vajra if there should be a hostile confrontation.

Huh. That does make some sense.

3 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Brisingr Alliance's next-generation main fighter program started with Uroboros's YF-30 Chronos, which was a derivative of the YF-24 Evolution and YF-29.  They economized the hell out of it, to the point that it's down to around the VF-25's level and could reasonably be mass produced.

I'm aware. I meant I thought that the YF/VF-28 would be the fighter of a far-off colony world or fleet that was based on the YF-24 Evolution in some later media or background data for Macross, but now I know that I kind of got it wrong and had those two switched. The YF-23 and YF-28 I mean.

3 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, they're not using fold boosters when they attack Al Shahal in Macross Delta's first episode.

The fold effect we see them emerge from is the distinctive one that's used for the ancient Protoculture ship Sigur Berrentzs, so presumably that ship is creating the space fold they're using to get around... possibly an extension of its ability to connect to and regulate the fold network in the ruins throughout the Brisingr cluster.

Huh. Now that is quite interesting I was actually guessing something like that was happening after rewatching the bit of the series with Delta Flight and Walkure's infiltration of Windermere IV. Nice to see it verified.

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, the Aerial Knights standard model used by Hermann, Bogue, Qasim, and the twins is the Sv-262Ba while Keith, as leader, has the Sv-262Hs.

This arrangement is likely something they inherited from the New UN Forces in the ~33 years they were a New UN Government member world.  One of those trends that comes and goes in VF design is whether or not to have a specific "command variant" with enhanced communication capabilities for squadron leaders or platoon leaders.  The members of a unit other than the commander wouldn't need the extra capabilities, so it wouldn't make sense to have an entire unit made up of just command variants if it meant depriving other units of the additional communications/coordination ability.

On the Sv-262, the actual difference in performance between the regular and command variant isn't very large.  There's a 5% better output from the fold reheat and some additional weaponry in the form of a pair of lasers, but other than that they're largely identical aircraft.

Shakes head. I always thought the Aerial Knights were using a supped of version of the regular Draken-III till I noticed that the Aerial Knight's Draken-IIIs had the same heads of the regular Draken III used by the unnamed regular Windermere pilots during my latest rewatch of the series. Speaking of which. I found something interesting in some bits about the Delta Scramble game that has pretty much all of the Windermere Pilots are actually Aerial Knights. Keith's Aerial Knight Squadron is just an elite formation of Aerial Knights that are sworn to service of the Windermere Royal Family or something like that. Is that true?

Also, sorry Seto another quick question. I recall from my previous look through of both this thread and Mecha Talk's Valkyrie Thread about a VF-171 Bloc-III Variant that is actually the Nightmare Plus we see in the Frontier Movies. It is a bit different from that of the VF-171EX from the series. Just wondering if I actually remember it correctly and if you have any further information on it?

[sketchley]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Oh, it's absolutely possible to use fold quartz to boost a thermonuclear reaction turbine engine's performance.

(...)

All this talk of Fold Quartz brought something to mind: are we talking naturally produced, or artificially produced?  I remember reading somewhere that while they could successfully synthesize fold quartz, it was of lower quality than the naturally produced stuff—which ties into the reasons why the Macross Galaxy Fleet (et al) were actively searching out the Vajra to get the high purity stuff (and there are at least 4 of those installed in the VF-29).

[sketchley]

2 hours ago, deathzealot said:

Also, sorry Seto another quick question. I recall from my previous look through of both this thread and Mecha Talk's Valkyrie Thread about a VF-171 Bloc-III Variant that is actually the Nightmare Plus we see in the Frontier Movies. It is a bit different from that of the VF-171EX from the series. Just wondering if I actually remember it correctly and if you have any further information on it?

Here's the Macross Chronicle article about the movie version: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRmechanic/TFnuns02aVF-171Destroids.php

There's substantially more on the TV version VF-171 and the later-introduced VF-171EX in this TOC: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRmechanic/MCRmechanic.php#MF

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

All this talk of Fold Quartz brought something to mind: are we talking naturally produced, or artificially produced?  I remember reading somewhere that while they could successfully synthesize fold quartz, it was of lower quality than the naturally produced stuff—which ties into the reasons why the Macross Galaxy Fleet (et al) were actively searching out the Vajra to get the high purity stuff (and there are at least 4 of those installed in the VF-29).

I know the Vajra Worldguide sheet (24A) mention the ancient Protoculture eventually mastered the manufacture of synthetic fold quartz.  I recall reading at one point that the New UN Government was researching the creation of synthetic fold quartz, but there wasn't any indication in the text that they'd succeeded in producing fold crystals pure enough to cross the line separating the fold carbon they were already synthesizing for fold reactors and so on from true fold quartz.  The size and purity of fold crystals is the make or break point for their usability, with granular fold quartz being usable for MDE weapons and larger, purer crystals being usable in things like ISCs or fold wave systems.

Given Macross Delta's backstory, I'm inclined to suspect that nobody has succeeded in producing synthetic fold quartz by 2067.  If a synthetic substitute were readily available, Windermere IV's plan to pin its economic growth on mining fold quartz wouldn't make sense.  Fold quartz is presumably what they were paying Berger Stone's Epsilon Foundation with in 2067.  

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, deathzealot said:

Shakes head. I always thought the Aerial Knights were using a supped of version of the regular Draken-III till I noticed that the Aerial Knight's Draken-IIIs had the same heads of the regular Draken III used by the unnamed regular Windermere pilots during my latest rewatch of the series. Speaking of which. I found something interesting in some bits about the Delta Scramble game that has pretty much all of the Windermere Pilots are actually Aerial Knights. Keith's Aerial Knight Squadron is just an elite formation of Aerial Knights that are sworn to service of the Windermere Royal Family or something like that. Is that true?

Yes, all of the Windermerean VF pilots are Aerial Knights.

The Aerial Knights are the planet Windermere IV's aerospace force, and the "knights" part isn't fanciful... they're an actual order of royal knights in service to the King of the Kingdom of the Wind.  Organizationally, they're a continuance of the pre-contact knights who fought siege battles from the backs of giant birds.  They've just traded the birds for something a bit more modern thanks to the introduction of human overtechnology following Megaroad-04 landing on their planet in 2027.  They graduated from airborne cavalry to an aerospace force.  As seen in Macross Delta Gaiden: the White Knight of the Black WIng, the introduction of modern technology hasn't changed their traditions or chivalric mindset much.  Their ranks seem to contain a lot of highborn folk, the sons of nobles, religious officials, and wealthy merchants.  Qasim's the only one of Keith's squadron who is lowborn, the son of an apple farmer who joined up as an adult instead of joining as a child.  Their top ace still bears the title White Knight of Darwent, with two of the last three encumbents being members of the royal family.

Keith's squadron seems to be the most elite squadron in the Aerial Knights.

 

Quote

Also, sorry Seto another quick question. I recall from my previous look through of both this thread and Mecha Talk's Valkyrie Thread about a VF-171 Bloc-III Variant that is actually the Nightmare Plus we see in the Frontier Movies. It is a bit different from that of the VF-171EX from the series. Just wondering if I actually remember it correctly and if you have any further information on it?

Yeah, we've seen three distinct versions of the VF-171 (four if you count Master File's take on certain Frontier content).

The VF-171 Block II that is the standard model we see for most of Frontier and Delta, the Block III from the movies that was updated with VF-19 engines and MDE weapons but not much else, and the more extreme VF-171EX that got new engines, airframe design changes, and other major upgrades like EX-Gear.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Seto Kaiba
Got my upgrades backwards... IIIF got the engines but not EX-Gear, not the other way around.

[JB0]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

they're an actual order of royal knights in service to the King of the Kingdom of the Wind.  Organizationally, they're a continuance of the pre-contact knights who fought siege battles from the backs of giant birds.  They've just traded the birds for something a bit more modern thanks to the introduction of human overtechnology following Megaroad-04 landing on their planet in 2027. 

Waitwaitwait... so they had a real-life version of Williams' Joust going on and then the Megaroad 4 ruined it?
I am so very disappointed. I want to see an anime of the Windemerian knights Jousting pre-contact now.

[deathzealot]

45 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yes, all of the Windermerean VF pilots are Aerial Knights.

The Aerial Knights are the planet Windermere IV's aerospace force, and the "knights" part isn't fanciful... they're an actual order of royal knights in service to the King of the Kingdom of the Wind.  Organizationally, they're a continuance of the pre-contact knights who fought siege battles from the backs of giant birds.  They've just traded the birds for something a bit more modern thanks to the introduction of human overtechnology following Megaroad-04 landing on their planet in 2027.  They graduated from airborne cavalry to an aerospace force.  As seen in Macross Delta Gaiden: the White Knight of the Black WIng, the introduction of modern technology hasn't changed their traditions or chivalric mindset much.  Their ranks seem to contain a lot of highborn folk, the sons of nobles, religious officials, and wealthy merchants.  Qasim's the only one of Keith's squadron who is lowborn, the son of an apple farmer who joined up as an adult instead of joining as a child.  Their top ace still bears the title White Knight of Darwent, with two of the last three encumbents being members of the royal family.

Keith's squadron seems to be the most elite squadron in the Aerial Knights.

 

Huh. I kind of expected that. Though I did have a bit of head canon, which I used in my fanfiction story Knight of Xaos, that had the Aerial Knights riding the larger version of those weird dragon-bird things we saw in that one flashback episode before humanity found them. Still thanks Seto for confirming my head canon is partly correct! As a Code Geass fan and a former performer at a Renaissance Festival this actually makes me like the Aerial Knights even more. 

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

Here's the Macross Chronicle article about the movie version: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRmechanic/TFnuns02aVF-171Destroids.php

Huh. The Bloc-IIIF huh. It says it does not have the EX-Gear in it but I could have sworn it did have it. It just did not have the more powerful engines I thought. 

51 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, we've seen three distinct versions of the VF-171 (four if you count Master File's take on certain Frontier content).

The VF-171 Block II that is the standard model we see for most of Frontier and Delta, the Block III from the movies that was updated with EX-Gear and MDE weapons but not much else, and the more extreme VF-171EX that got new engines, airframe design changes, and other major upgrades.

OH. It does have EX-Gear then. Though I wonder there was one Nightmare Plus variant that was described somewhere as a sweet fighter to fly or something to that effect. 

33 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Waitwaitwait... so they had a real-life version of Williams' Joust going on and then the Megaroad 4 ruined it?
I am so very disappointed. I want to see an anime of the Windemerian knights Jousting pre-contact now.

And it was not just your typical old Joust we know from Medieval times they are actually flying in the freaking air! 

[JB0]

12 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

And it was not just your typical old Joust we know from Medieval times they are actually flying in the freaking air! 

Right. Williams' Joust.

 

 

[sketchley]

15 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Huh. The Bloc-IIIF huh. It says it does not have the EX-Gear in it but I could have sworn it did have it. It just did not have the more powerful engines I thought. 

 

OH. It does have EX-Gear then. Though I wonder there was one Nightmare Plus variant that was described somewhere as a sweet fighter to fly or something to that effect.

Seto - what's your source for the movie version having EX-Gear?

[deathzealot]

31 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Right. Williams' Joust.

Blink. Huh. Okay, never even heard of this before. Still I agree with your earlier comment. Damn shame we did not get a chance to see actual Aerial Knights on their steads jousting and such. That would have been freaking awesome. 

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, sketchley said:

Seto - what's your source for the movie version having EX-Gear?

Sorry, I got my upgrades backwards... the IIIF had the VF-19 engines but not the EX-Gear.

[deathzealot]

Just now, Seto Kaiba said:

Sorry, I got my upgrades backwards... the IIIF had the VF-19 engines but not the EX-Gear.

What!? Are you sure? Because Macross Mecha Manual has the Nightmare Plus EX as having FF-2550F engines? 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

What!? Are you sure? Because Macross Mecha Manual has the Nightmare Plus EX as having FF-2550F engines? 

I meant with respect to the Block IIIF only.  (TL;DR: I misremembered something.)

The VF-171EX has the metaphorical "complete package", with the upgrade to VF-19 engines (type FF-2550F), a redesigned canopy and forward fuselage, EX-Gear, and the MDE weapons package.

The VF-171-IIIF in the movie only got some of the upgrades of its TV counterpart.  It didn't get the redesigned fuselage and canopy, and it did get the MDE weapons package.  What I misremembered was whether it got the engine update and EX-Gear.  I got them switched around in my head, and foolishly didn't grab my copy of Chronicle to check before posting.  Mea culpa.  Mea maxima culpa.

[aurance]

Fun fact: before NUNS, Windemeraens actually transformed into birds. No reference but it's true!

PS: BIRDWALK form is horrifying.

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, aurance said:

Fun fact: before NUNS, Windemeraens actually transformed into birds. No reference but it's true!

PS: BIRDWALK form is horrifying.

On a more serious note, I've often wondered what kind of native lifeform the ancient Protoculture genetically modified to create the Windermereans.

If you line Macross's timeline up with the understanding of the fossil record at the time it was made, the ancient Protoculture's intervention modified one of the early hominid species like Homo heidelbergensis into anatomically modern humanity.  The Zolans seem to have originated with some kind of pseudo-marsupial mammalian lifeform.  The Voldorans seem to have almost certainly been some species of large cat-like creature.  The Ragnans are an interesting anatomical puzzle since the modern sub-Protoculture Ragnans have both mammal and piscine traits, which makes one wonder if they were all-fish before the Protoculture's intervention or if they were some kind of marine mammal with gills.  The Windermereans are the ones that defy categorization.  Their planet's signature animal is a gigantic bird the size of a small passenger aircraft, but they have weird anglerfish-like prehensile tentacles which act as light-up sensory organs.  Were they an avian species, primate-like, or something else entirely?  Did the ancient Protoculture create their runes entirely, or did they just adapt an existing organ?

It's a fascinating and bottomless rabbit hole to head down if you're bored.

[deathzealot]

Speaking of which. Love it or hate it, you do have to give Macross Delta props for pretty much doubling the amount of races in the entire franchise. For the longest time we only had the dead Protoculture, modern humanity, and the Zentradi. Then we got the Zolan introduced in an OVA based after the second major series. Then years later, Delta gave us the Windermere, the Ragnans, and the Voldor. That had been one of my minor little nitpicks with Macross and Delta solved it. Somewhat.

EDIT: Opps. Forgot the Vajra from Frontier but they were truly an alien race that was little understood while the others I mentioned were the humanoid and understood far better in some sense.

Edited May 12, 2020 by deathzealot

[Bolt]

Proto devlin?

[deathzealot]

5 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Proto devlin?

Snort. Honestly they are kind related to that of the Protoculture anyways right? 

[sketchley]

5 hours ago, deathzealot said:

Snort. Honestly they are kind related to that of the Protoculture anyways right? 

Well, yes and no.  The Protodevilun are a combination of energy life forms from the sub-universe and the Ehvil Series.  The Ehvil series are basically the successor to the Zentrādi—thus they are "related" to the Protoculture.

So, technically Macross 7 introduced us to:

• energy life form race
• Protodevilun (new race from the merger of 2 distinct life forms)

AND a new variant of the Zentradi.  Giving us:

• Zentrādi (TV series ver.;  basically humans)
• Zentran (movie ver.; able to biologically join with their equipment)
• Meltran (movie ver.; essentially have fibre optics for nerves, among other things)
• Ehvil series (essentially forgo the need for external equipment—like Mobile Weapons and space battleships)

 

And what about the other intelligent life forms?  Like the Sharon Apple style AI, or the Galactic Whales?

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, deathzealot said:

Speaking of which. Love it or hate it, you do have to give Macross Delta props for pretty much doubling the amount of races in the entire franchise. For the longest time we only had the dead Protoculture, modern humanity, and the Zentradi. Then we got the Zolan introduced in an OVA based after the second major series. Then years later, Delta gave us the Windermere, the Ragnans, and the Voldor. That had been one of my minor little nitpicks with Macross and Delta solved it. Somewhat.

EDIT: Opps. Forgot the Vajra from Frontier but they were truly an alien race that was little understood while the others I mentioned were the humanoid and understood far better in some sense.

Well, there's a few more... before Macross Delta rolled in and added the Ragnans, Voldorans, and Windermereans, Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy introduced two more.  One is the biotechnological insectoid species called the Dyaus that that ancient Protoculture created to keep people from messing with the protective measures they built to seal away the Fold Evil they built that had the power to alter time, and the other being the possibility of a sentient bio-android that we later saw realized in Macross Delta in the form of Walkure's Mikumo Guynemer.

 

7 hours ago, Bolt said:

Proto devlin?

I'm not sure I'd count the Protodeviln as a race or species, given that what we know as the Protodeviln are the seven Evil-series bioweapon prototypes that were manufactured during the Protoculture's civil war and were accidentally possessed by extra-dimensional energy lifeforms due to a buggy biotechnological fold dimensional energy conversion system they'd created to power their amazing combat abilities.  It's not clear if they have the ability to reproduce, and by the time the dust settled over the second war against them there were only three left: Gepernich, Sivil, and Gavilgula.  It's not clear if they're capable of reproducing, before or after becoming a species with the ability to sustain themselves by generating their own spiritia.

 

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

AND a new variant of the Zentradi.  Giving us:

• Zentrādi (TV series ver.;  basically humans)
• Zentran (movie ver.; able to biologically join with their equipment)
• Meltran (movie ver.; essentially have fibre optics for nerves, among other things)
• Ehvil series (essentially forgo the need for external equipment—like Mobile Weapons and space battleships)

I'm not sure those first three count as distinct variations of Zentradi, since the DYRL? versions of Zentradi tech have largely replaced the TV series versions from Macross II onwards... and the titles that followed don't treat them as distinctly different from each other.

 

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

And what about the other intelligent life forms?  Like the Sharon Apple style AI, or the Galactic Whales?

Are Galactic Whales sentient in the conventional sense?

As to AIs, the technology to create a self-aware/sentient AI was illegal even before it was used in Sharon Apple... and IIRC didn't that ban get even stricter after Sharon Apple went berserk?

[aurance]

How much of a VF's engine output can it channel into their heavy quantum beam gun pods? Is it essentially limited only by their engine output, or is there some materials/capacitor limit on the gun pod itself?

[Seto Kaiba]

16 minutes ago, aurance said:

How much of a VF's engine output can it channel into their heavy quantum beam gun pods? Is it essentially limited only by their engine output, or is there some materials/capacitor limit on the gun pod itself?

Hard to say... mostly for the lack of quantifiable data on the energy consumption of those weapons.

Presumably the amount of energy that the heavy quantum beam gunpod can accept as input power is significantly less than the combined generator output of the VF's engines.  There is the existing tradeoff between using reaction heat for thrust production vs. energy generation that caps the total available system energy in any given mode, but defensive systems on VFs are extraordinarily energy-intensive as well.  A VF's energy conversion armor used to be the #1 draw on its generator output, consuming as much as 90% (on the VF-0) of its energy output in Battroid mode.  The pinpoint barrier systems introduced on 4th Generation VFs displaced energy conversion armor as the new top dog, drawing 60% (on the YF-19/VF-19) of the VF's available generator output.  Active stealth would be another big energy consumer given its complex processing requirements and the need for high-powered EM transmission to fool enemy radars, but it's not usually explicitly mentioned as a top consumer of energy.

Once you subtract all that stuff out, as well as the power needs of the joint drive actuators and so on, that's what's left for something like a heavy quantum beam gunpod.

The Compact Thermonuclear Reactors at the heart of thermonuclear reaction turbine engines produce astonishing amounts of power, so even a seemingly small percentage like 10% could still be a gargantuan amount of energy by today's standards.  The VF-1 Valkyrie's two FF-2001A engines were rated for 650MW/ea (with a max of 1,700MW/ea in older material).  10% of that is 130 (or 390) megawatts.  The only other VF to have explicit statements about its generator output - the VF-2SS Valkyrie II - had three times the VF-1's generator output (1,950-5,100MW/ea).  10% of that is still a freaking gigawatt, and in performance terms (given the relationship between generator output and thrust production) the VF-2SS is only on about the VF-11's level performance-wise.

[deathzealot]

7 hours ago, sketchley said:

Well, yes and no.  The Protodevilun are a combination of energy life forms from the sub-universe and the Ehvil Series.  The Ehvil series are basically the successor to the Zentrādi—thus they are "related" to the Protoculture.

Honestly. I am not a fan of the Protodeviln, or much of Macross 7. My personal head canon is that the events we know as Macross 7 is actually a fictional take on the war against the Varauta that was made to promote Fire Bomber and their music. I really do not know what actually happened during this time but I have a couple ideas of what happened. For example, one idea I have is that the Protodeviln are actually similar to that of the Mardook from Macross II and control their forces through songs. 

8 hours ago, sketchley said:

AND a new variant of the Zentradi.  Giving us:

• Zentrādi (TV series ver.;  basically humans)
• Zentran (movie ver.; able to biologically join with their equipment)
• Meltran (movie ver.; essentially have fibre optics for nerves, among other things)
• Ehvil series (essentially forgo the need for external equipment—like Mobile Weapons and space battleships)

Ummm... I would lump all that under Zentradi. Also, I prefer the regular TV versions am not much a fan of the Movie versions of the Zentradi.

8 hours ago, sketchley said:

And what about the other intelligent life forms?  Like the Sharon Apple style AI, or the Galactic Whales?

I wouldn't count either of those. Sharon Apple is a human-created AI and not a Protoculture created race. The Galactic Whales are closest but we don't know much about them, like Seto said do we actually know if they are sentient.

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, there's a few more... before Macross Delta rolled in and added the Ragnans, Voldorans, and Windermereans, Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy introduced two more.  One is the biotechnological insectoid species called the Dyaus that that ancient Protoculture created to keep people from messing with the protective measures they built to seal away the Fold Evil they built that had the power to alter time, and the other being the possibility of a sentient bio-android that we later saw realized in Macross Delta in the form of Walkure's Mikumo Guynemer.

Ummm... I thought the Dyaus are actually artificially created weapons and not really an intelligent race. As for bio-android I had forgotten about that but they are only a couple around at this time.

Anyways with said I did not mean to drag up anything about this. I only wanted to point out Delta did give us a few more races to enjoy talking about or speculating about. Heck. I would love to see some further stories about them in the future. Granted they all live out in the boonies but still I do love the addition of the extra races. It gives a bit more life to the Macross Galaxy as whole in my opinion.

Not that is out of the way. I have a couple of small questions for you Seto.

First extended from the bit about the races from Delta. Are Ragna or Voldor actually part of the Brisingr Alliance? Or are they their own independent worlds. I believe it was mentioned that Voldor had their own NUNS Garrison Fleet. Therefore, making them members of the New United Nations Government in some way, but does the mean they are also part of the Alliance or are they their own member of the NUNG. Ragna doesn't look to have its own NUNS forces outside of the Xaos forces. Oh. They have a fleet in orbit when the Windermere arrive to start the Battle of Ragna but I honestly don't think they are actually NUNS but Xaos as the officer that reported to the Macross Elysion is wearing a Xaos Officer Uniform similar to that of Captain Johnson. We also just saw Xaos call in some further forces a couple episodes before hand.

Second. Do we have any data on the Island Jackpot and its class of ship? Others call it the Island Class. I believe it is smaller then even the regular New Macross Class Island that we see with the Macross 7, but is it a member of that overall reaching class of Island Ships. Basically the human colony ship that arrived at Ragna. Or is it like the Environment Ships from Frontier where it is an auxiliary colony ship to that of a main, larger, colony ship?

Anyways. Sorry about keeping on asking these questions Seto but I am quite curious about some of the background and this is the first I can get my questions answered. With other properties that I like there are already plenty of information out in the internet about it. Macross is one of the few that actually has not all that much information about it posted in an easily found place to browse.