Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, seti88 said:

I was looking at the thrusters under the soles of the feet, not legs per se..

I dont thk the VA-3 has thruster nozzles under their feet(?) since the feet are derived from splitting the tail in 'half'.

If am not mistaken every other macross valk has thruster nozzles under the soles of the feet...

Nah, the VB-6 Konig Monster's engines are in the back of its calves in Destroid mode.

That part of the leg does technically end up as part of the bottom of the foot in Heavy GERWALK mode, so the VB-6 is technically kind of prancing around on the balls of its feet in Destroid mode like a Mortar Headd from Five Star Stories... (pictured: Hathuha Union Republics A-Toll Scritti reconnaissance MH.)

 

1 hour ago, seti88 said:

That would certainly cover the no palm/fingers element.

The unmanned Neo Glaug version doesn't even have hands... the earlier, manned Variable Glaug version has three-fingered manipulator claws like the VA-3's.

 

1 hour ago, seti88 said:

Does the variable glaug also has thruster nozzles under the soles of the feet?
I cant tell...

The main engines are up on its back there, but I believe the only nozzles in the legs are the ones on the backs of its ankles.

 

1 hour ago, seti88 said:

Also would the variable glaug be considered a valkyrie? My only rational to say yes, is that it has battroid, gerwalk and fighter modes.

Well, it is designated as one... albeit with the dual designation Variable Battle Pod.

(Officially: VBP-1/VA-110)

 

[Sir Galahad®]

Since it has been said that the performance of the VF-31 is equal to the VF-25, why create a new fighter at all? Cost? Use? Roles? (Of course other than the reason it being a new show :))

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Since it has been said that the performance of the VF-31 is equal to the VF-25, why create a new fighter at all? Cost? Use? Roles?

Economics.

In some respects, the Brisingr Alliance's decision to domestically develop their own next-generation main variable fighter broadly parallels Japan's own course of action with regard to its attempts to acquire a 5th Generation fighter for its defense forces.  Arms export restrictions prevented them from acquiring the New Hotness (the VF-24 in Macross, the F-22 in the real world) and purchasing an export variant from elsewhere was economically and politically unattractive, so they opted to develop their own next-gen main fighter domestically as a way to create jobs and stimulate their economy while filling that particular military need.  On completion, it would also offer additional potential economic advantages in terms of the ability to sell their own design as an export to other governments.

Like the Mitsubishi X-2, the process still ended up involving codevelopment partnerships with foreign companies to reach completion... Surya Aerospace being a joint venture of four different companies including Shinsei and LAI, and building on a design that had originally been designed and built elsewhere (like Northrop Grumman's proposal to turn the X-2 into an improved YF-23).

 

1 minute ago, Sir Galahad® said:

(Of course other than the reason it being a new show :))

If we're being honest, this is the main reason.  Bandai needs new designs. 

[NightmarePlus]

Yeah, they couldn't exactly go for VF-25s either even if they wanted to. IIRC the packs for it were kinda expensive, and while the Brisingr cluster wasn't exactly the poorest region, they weren't swimming in cash either.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, NightmarePlus said:

Yeah, they couldn't exactly go for VF-25s either even if they wanted to. IIRC the packs for it were kinda expensive, and while the Brisingr cluster wasn't exactly the poorest region, they weren't swimming in cash either.

Quite.  The relatively wealthy Macross Frontier fleet restricted the Armored Pack on the basis of its high cost... the comparatively broke Brisingr Alliance would probably balk at the cost of the ASWAG that made the pack so expensive in the first place.  That may be a big part of why the VF-31's ugly-AF Armored Pack is almost exclusively offense-focused.

That said, the VF-25 was likely off the table anyway because the Brisingr Alliance's underdeveloped economy needed a shot in the arm that buying export model VF-25s or a license to locally produce the VF-25 wouldn't help one bit.

[NightmarePlus]

How powerful is ASWAG anyways? Does it compare to the Vajra's bio-ECA?

[Seto Kaiba]

13 minutes ago, NightmarePlus said:

How powerful is ASWAG anyways? Does it compare to the Vajra's bio-ECA?

We don't have an absolute figure, only relative measures... but it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-3x as tough as the VF-25's conventional energy conversion armor.

The defensive capabilities of the VF-25 Messiah's APS-25 Armored Pack are compared to two things: the armor of a New UN Spacy heavy cruiser and the YF-29.  We don't really have a frame of reference for the cruiser, but the YF-29 is known to achieve better defensive ability than the VF-25 Armored Messiah by having twice the usual thickness of energy conversion armor running at twice the usual power.  That'd generally suggest the Armored Pack is at most three times as strong as the VF-25's regular armor.

(The one time Armored Pack defensive performance was objectively quantified - on the VF-1 in some VERY old tech materials - the Armored Pack's defensive ability was 1.667x as tough as the VF-1's own armor, leading to the VF-1 almost tripling its defensive ability when the pack was equipped.)

[Gerli]

So... was the Booby-Trap on the SDF-1 a real trap or was just an Automatic Defense System that humans don't understand until it was too late?

[Bolt]

I'd say the later. 

[Seto Kaiba]

42 minutes ago, Gerli said:

So... was the Booby-Trap on the SDF-1 a real trap or was just an Automatic Defense System that humans don't understand until it was too late?

It's pretty consistently referred to as a booby trap... even by the Zentradi, who warn Misa in Ep30 that the derelict Supervision Army ship they stumble across may also be booby trapped.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I don’t know if this has been asked and answered, but does anyone know why the VF-4’s atmospheric flight characteristics are stated to be worse than the VF-1 or VF-5000?

 

 The design actually seems to be fairly sound aerodynamically. It has a lifting body and a decent amount of wing surface for control surfaces.

[Bolt]

I can't give technical reasons or comparisons,( those are forthcoming from those who know) , but it is well known the VF-4 was most optimized for outer space, over atmosphere. There seemed to be obvious reasons for Megaroad 0-1 to need these designs. While it still probably had plenty of VF-1's aboard.

[AN/ALQ128]

30 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I don’t know if this has been asked and answered, but does anyone know why the VF-4’s atmospheric flight characteristics are stated to be worse than the VF-1 or VF-5000?

 

 The design actually seems to be fairly sound aerodynamically. It has a lifting body and a decent amount of wing surface for control surfaces.

I'm gonna assume (since I have a very limited understanding of aerodynamics) that the within wing engine nacelles probably incurred more drag than the more conventional engine-within-fuselage design of the VF-1 and VF-5000.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I don’t know if this has been asked and answered, but does anyone know why the VF-4’s atmospheric flight characteristics are stated to be worse than the VF-1 or VF-5000?

Macross Chronicle's Mechanic Sheet for the VF-4A Lightning III doesn't specify.

Mind you, it doesn't actually say the VF-4's atmospheric flight characteristics are necessarily worse than the VF-1's.  Just that it's not better than the VF-1 in that respect.

The nuance I get from it, and connected remarks about the VF-5000, is that the VF-4's largely space-focused aerodynamic design resulted in a fighter with high stability in atmospheric flight.  Since fighters derive a fair amount of their maneuverability from being unstable-by-design, its greater stability made it less agile than the less stable VF-1 and VF-5000.  It's very good at high altitudes and it'll blow the VF-1 into the weeds in terms of acceleration and straight-line speed, but it won't turn as tightly as the VF-1 or VF-5000 can.  Some of what I've read about the VF-4's atmospheric-duty variants (mainly the VF-4D) was that because of those aerodynamic shortcomings as a fighter it was sidelined from air superiority roles into an interceptor and surface attacker role instead.

[Valkyrie Driver]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Chronicle's Mechanic Sheet for the VF-4A Lightning III doesn't specify.

Mind you, it doesn't actually say the VF-4's atmospheric flight characteristics are necessarily worse than the VF-1's.  Just that it's not better than the VF-1 in that respect.

The nuance I get from it, and connected remarks about the VF-5000, is that the VF-4's largely space-focused aerodynamic design resulted in a fighter with high stability in atmospheric flight.  Since fighters derive a fair amount of their maneuverability from being unstable-by-design, its greater stability made it less agile than the less stable VF-1 and VF-5000.  It's very good at high altitudes and it'll blow the VF-1 into the weeds in terms of acceleration and straight-line speed, but it won't turn as tightly as the VF-1 or VF-5000 can.  Some of what I've read about the VF-4's atmospheric-duty variants (mainly the VF-4D) was that because of those aerodynamic shortcomings as a fighter it was sidelined from air superiority roles into an interceptor and surface attacker role instead.

I suppose that’s fair enough. It’s as good an explanation as any. Seems kinda like an F15 vs F16 kinda thing then.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I suppose that’s fair enough. It’s as good an explanation as any. Seems kinda like an F15 vs F16 kinda thing then.

For what it's worth, it doesn't seem to have stopped the New UN Forces from using the VF-4 in atmosphere enough to justify at least two atmosphere-specific variants... the VF-4D and VF-4S, both used by the Navy.

[Valkyrie Driver]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

For what it's worth, it doesn't seem to have stopped the New UN Forces from using the VF-4 in atmosphere enough to justify at least two atmosphere-specific variants... the VF-4D and VF-4S, both used by the Navy.

So after talking to my dad, and finding out exactly how static stability is determined, the VF-4 would be much more statically stable than the VF-1. The center of gravity is much closer to the mean aerodynamic chord of the wing. 
 

The VF-4 would definitely excel at high speed interdiction missions. 
 

Are there inboard hard points? I know that such hard points would be useable in fighter mode only based on how the ship transforms.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

The VF-4 would definitely excel at high speed interdiction missions. 

One thing I've always suspected is that the VF-4 would be pretty amazing at extreme high-altitude interception.  It's got the engine power to climb like a beast as soon as it gets up to a speed suitable for turning the ramjets on, and it can swap from those to the rockets when it gets above the atmospheric service limitation.

 

1 hour ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Are there inboard hard points? I know that such hard points would be useable in fighter mode only based on how the ship transforms.

According to the available original line art, yes.

According to Variable Fighter Master File, yes.

According to the various model kits made over the years, yes.

How many?  Well, that's a matter of opinion.

Depending on which source you consult, the VF-4 Lightning III has either six or eight underwing pylon stations.  The line art shows eight, two inboard and two outboard of the engine nacelle on either side of the aircraft.  Master File also shows eight (two inboard two outboard) in most configurations.  Many of the model kits only show six, usually two outboard and one inboard.  Master File's version and the old line art differ on one key point... the Musasiya line art sheets show the inboard pylons in a side-by-side layout with all eight pylons in one row, where Master File shows the inboard pair as fore and aft stations equidistant from the centerline and nacelle.

[JB0]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One thing I've always suspected is that the VF-4 would be pretty amazing at extreme high-altitude interception.  It's got the engine power to climb like a beast as soon as it gets up to a speed suitable for turning the ramjets on, and it can swap from those to the rockets when it gets above the atmospheric service limitation.

Sort of a super-advanced YF-12? That's fitting, given the real-world design influence.

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, JB0 said:

Sort of a super-advanced YF-12? That's fitting, given the real-world design influence.

Yeah, kinda... though the Macross 7 PLUS "Spiritia Dreaming" version of the VF-14 (which may or may not appear in Macross Plus in a background shot) has an even better claim to being a "super-advanced YF-12" given that it IS ONE in a more stringently literal sense.

[Master Dex]

Speaking of detailed info on things given by Seto, how's your site project coming? I recall you quoted a near term start date to me at SDC, but unless I missed something I guess delays occurred. Gotta take the needed time of course, mostly just curious. 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

Speaking of detailed info on things given by Seto, how's your site project coming? I recall you quoted a near term start date to me at SDC, but unless I missed something I guess delays occurred. Gotta take the needed time of course, mostly just curious. 

"Slowly".

About two months after SDCon, I got an unasked-for promotion that about tripled my workload at my day job in the short term.  I ended up with a lot less time to devote to the hobby while I was grappling with my new responsibilities and trying to get on top of everything my predecessor left unfinished and undocumented.  I finally got everything back onto an even keel right before the Christmas break, so now I'm playing catch-up on development.  We've broken (metaphorical) ground on the site design after a good deal of debate about how it's going to look, and now it's mostly coding the layouts.  The easy part comes after that: populating the pages with articles and translations.

The moral of the story is that having rare and difficult-to-replace skills is great for contract negotiations and job security, but horrible for your health and peace of mind if vacancies on your team are nearly impossible to fill with qualified candidates.  Unlike the post-war New UN Government, I can't just clone my way out of a skills shortage.

[Master Dex]

I can totally understand how that goes, I hear similar stories where I work all the time. Like said, if it takes more time than that's how it is. Life is always in front lol. Good to hear it's leveling out though. 

[slide]

On 1/17/2020 at 11:39 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Unlike the post-war New UN Government, I can't just clone my way out of a skills shortage.

*Yet

[Valkyrie Driver]

I’m actually really happy to see that this thread is still here and active two and a half years after I started it! Y’all are great!

[AN/ALQ128]

1 hour ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I’m actually really happy to see that this thread is still here and active two and a half years after I started it! Y’all are great!

There's nothing more fun than getting into the nitty gritty details of bipedal fighter jets.

[Bolt]

28 minutes ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

There's nothing more fun than getting into the nitty gritty details of bipedal fighter jets.

It's interesting to note, the original idea for Macross WAS just bipedal fighter jets- Gerwalk only. Toy sponsors wanted robots to sell (they knew they could sell those..).  Hence the Batroid.  And those toy makers were right!

[Mazinger]

17 hours ago, Bolt said:

It's interesting to note, the original idea for Macross WAS just bipedal fighter jets- Gerwalk only. Toy sponsors wanted robots to sell (they knew they could sell those..).  Hence the Batroid.  And those toy makers were right!

Alright, I'm probably gonna get shot down in flames here, but I'm of the opinion that battroid modes with heads are superfluous.

Sure they looked nice as kids, but when I go into my own fanfic speculation, I just can't justify any "real world" need for heads with eyes and little head lasers.

I'll go so far as to say that Gerwalk is all I would need in any live action treatment.

(Doesn't stop me from wanting different head variant VF-1's however.)

[Bolt]

22 minutes ago, Mazinger said:

Alright, I'm probably gonna get shot down in flames here, but I'm of the opinion that battroid modes with heads are superfluous.

 

Sounds like you're the destroid type  

[Mazinger]

Fanfic/Plot twist thought of the day:

The real answer to the Fermi's Paradox (Why aren't we chilling with all those wacky aliens yet?), is that we are the Proto-Culture.

We'll seed all the M class planets in our arm of the milky way crazy cat's spliced with people genes.

Thousands of years from now our evolved roombas turn on us and hunt us down for our sins and general messiness.

We'll be forced to send out a drone ship built out of the remains of the Yamato (because roombas hoard all the rest of the metal) to search for help.

And in the meantime make a slave race of really tall clone troopers to fight the roombas (because, how could that possibly go wrong?)

Finally V-ger shows up in episode 26 to teach us and the roombas to all get along through the power of song and drum and bass music.

[Bolt]

 oh man, V-ger..i can hear the soundtrack now

 

 

[Bolt]

On 10/25/2019 at 9:20 AM, Sir Galahad® said:

Since it has been said that the performance of the VF-31 is equal to the VF-25, why create a new fighter at all? Cost? Use? Roles? (Of course other than the reason it being a new show :))

The NUNS 31-A has a slight edge , doesn't it?

[AN/ALQ128]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

The NUNS 31-A has a slight edge , doesn't it?

It also has that multi role equipment container built into the fuselage.

[Bolt]

28 minutes ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

It also has that multi role equipment container built into the fuselage.

Yes. I was thinking performance wise. I like the multi role container. But considering the many variants of the VF-25 super parts, I'm not sure that's a clear cut advantage. 

[sketchley]

6 hours ago, Mazinger said:

(...)  I just can't justify any "real world" need for heads with eyes and little head lasers.
 (...)

I wouldn't loose the head lasers.  They're important for rear AA defence.

As far as the "head" and "eyes"... just consider them a beefed-up, armoured camera unit on a swivel with a lot of cosmetic additions for psychological warfare.

Edited January 26, 2020 by sketchley