Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[JB0]

34 minutes ago, camk4evr said:

Wait wouldn't that tend to make your racing career fairly short?

Depends on if luck is one of your skills.

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, JB0 said:

It is okay, they paint them black so they're invisible!

Or something like this, just with giant robots...

 

 

7 hours ago, camk4evr said:

Wait wouldn't that tend to make your racing career fairly short?

Yes, it would... unless you were a phenomenally good pilot.  

Hakuna Aoba is, as it happens, a phenomenally good pilot.  So much so that he's known as the Uncrowned King in the league because he performs well but his VF is so problematic that it keeps him from winning races.  (Why he's such a good pilot comes out in the course of the story... he's one of Milia's students, a former elite Macross 7 fleet Special Forces VF pilot, and a member of the squadron Max personally tapped to provide the advance reconnaissance in preparation for Operation Stargazer.  The man is a Jenius-approved ace twice over.)

Macross R makes little secret of the fact that Hakuna Aoba's skill is about all that's keeping his VF-1X++ from ending up as a carbonized smear on the side of the track.  A lesser pilot would likely find the thing completely unflyable.

 

[kajnrig]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Or something like this, just with giant robots...

I just gotta say I honestly never expected Gilbert and Sullivan to be referenced here.

[Master Dex]

24 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

I just gotta say I honestly never expected Gilbert and Sullivan to be referenced here.

I feel like with Macross this was only a matter of time though. 

[kajnrig]

43 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

I feel like with Macross this was only a matter of time though. 

This is also true.

[Bolt]

14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The man is a Jenius-approved ace twice over.)

This is revealed in MTR light novels?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

This is revealed in MTR light novels?

Ja... it's the reason Hakuna Aoba is interested in the prospects of the story's protagonist, Chelsea Scarlett, who was a Varauta colonist he rescued during the Protodeviln conflict.  Aoba and his former CO, the story's big bad Naresuan, were both NUNS Special Forces pilots for the Macross 7 fleet.

Angers 672, the other main antagonist, was Chelsea's mentor of sorts and also the first test pilot for the YF-25.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[camk4evr]

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Or something like this, just with giant robots...

 

 

Y

 

 

Hmmm. I'm not sure but I think they failed their stealth check.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, camk4evr said:

Hmmm. I'm not sure but I think they failed their stealth check.

's okay, everyone else crit-failed to notice them.

[Seto Kaiba]

18 hours ago, Master Dex said:

I feel like with Macross this was only a matter of time though. 

I wish I could claim credit for the thought, but this is something a group of players in a session of the Macross RPG I was running actually did a couple years back.

They were part of a rescue team storming an anti-government group's base to rescue an official from the Barnrose Authority and, to cover the hostage's escape, decided the best way to get the enemy's attention and create a diversion was to go stomping down the corridors of the base in suits of EX-Gear while loudly singing With Cat-like Tread.  To their credit, it worked perfectly until the actual shooting started and the dice decided that everyone was a graduate of the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.

[Bolt]

This might be better as a noob q, but it’s not a short q..

The VF-25 Messiah along with the SPS-25/MF25 Super Fast Pack, APS-25/MF25 Armored PackAnd ROV-E75X Tornado pack ,was developed by Shinsei Industry with some input from LAI Corp.  going into the fighter itself  a la VF-24.

LAI Corp developed the VF-24

The VF-25 was intended to replace the VF-171 as NUNS next main fighter .

In other words, the VF-24 is just a prototype and not an actual production VF being used by NUNS. Is that correct?

presumably , NUNS is now (as of Delta) phasing into the VF-25 platform as the mainstay? Obviously it’s not an instantaneous process.

Are there further examples of fast packs or armored packs having been developed for the VF-25? Or did Shinsei nab the contract on that one alone?

MY VFMF VF-25 is waiting for me at the post office . I’m eagerly looking forward to pouring over it, though I can’t read it..

[kajnrig]

7 minutes ago, Bolt said:

In other words, the VF-24 is just a prototype and not an actual production VF being used by NUNS. Is that correct?

Obviously Seto's working on an answer to this as we speak, but maybe I can beat him to it.

IIRC, the YF-24 prototype became the VF-24, and is strictly for Earth forces use. Something about increased autonomy for the immigrant fleets, but because of that Earth wants to keep the true strength of its fighter a secret. Toned-down monkey model schematics(?) were distributed throughout the immigrant fleets for use in making their own local variants, which is where the VF-25 et al come from.

[Seto Kaiba]

54 minutes ago, Bolt said:

The VF-25 Messiah along with the SPS-25/MF25 Super Fast Pack, APS-25/MF25 Armored PackAnd ROV-E75X Tornado pack ,was developed by Shinsei Industry with some input from LAI Corp.  going into the fighter itself  a la VF-24.

The VF-25 Messiah was a joint development by the Macross Frontier fleet arsenal, Shinsei Industry's Macross Frontier fleet branch, and L.A.I. for the Macross Frontier fleet New UN Forces, based on the Earth Shinsei Industry YF-24 Evolution prototype spec which was shared (in redacted form) throughout the New UN Government as per galaxy law.

Not sure where you got that designation for the Tornado Pack... it's officially the TW1 Tornado Pack

 

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LAI Corp developed the VF-24

No, the original YF-24 was a joint development program between Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy's respective headquarters on Earth.  After the project was suspended due to the ISC technology being insufficiently mature, Shinsei later revived the project on its own and created the YF-24 Evolution prototype that the Earth New UN Forces decided to adopt as the next main fighter in 2057, the VF-24 being the mass production version of that.

A redacted version of the YF-24 Evolution spec was shared throughout the New UN Government as mandated by galaxy law, with a number of fleets and planets opting to use it as the basis for developing their own next-gen VFs like the YF-25, YF-26, YF-27, YF-29, and YF-30.  Some fleets would have built their own local versions of the VF-24.  Others are noted to have gone all-Ghost for their air forces.  The Macross Frontier fleet used it to develop the YF-25 that was further developed into the VF-25 as well as the YF-29.  Macross Olympia used it to develop their failed YF-26.  Macross Galaxy used it to develop the YF-27 that was further developed into the VF-27.  Uroboros's government partnered with SMS to develop the YF-30 from it and the YF-29 spec, and later Shinsei's branch office in the Brisingr Alliance refined it into the cheaper, far lower spec, mass produceable VF-31 Kairos.  Some of the YF-24's tech was also used in the creation of the Sv-262 Draken III that was adopted by Windermere IV's Kingdom of the Wind.

 

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The VF-25 was intended to replace the VF-171 as NUNS next main fighter .

Within the Macross Frontier fleet's New UN Forces... Master File and Macross 30 imply the VF-25 design was shared with Macross Frontier's close allies and economic partners like Sephira and Macross Olympia.

It was not a replacement for the VF-171 galaxy-wide.  There is no more "one VF to rule them all"... and there really hasn't been since the 3rd Generation Project Nova competition where a bunch of fleets decided to adopt the VF-14 anyway even though it lost out to the VF-11 (like the Megaroad-13 colony in the Varauta system, whose VF-14s later became the basis for the Fz-109).

 

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In other words, the VF-24 is just a prototype and not an actual production VF being used by NUNS. Is that correct?

No, the VF-24 was adopted as the next main fighter of the Earth New UN Forces and the central/federal New UN Forces under the direct authority of the New UN Government in 2057.

 

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presumably , NUNS is now (as of Delta) phasing into the VF-25 platform as the mainstay? Obviously it’s not an instantaneous process.

Within the Macross Frontier fleet and any of its close allies and economic partners who opted to adopt the VF-25 themselves.

Other local governments are adopting other 5th Generation fighter designs or alternatives like next-gen Ghosts, Macross Galaxy's VF-27, and the Brisingr Alliance's VF-31.

 

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Are there further examples of fast packs or armored packs having been developed for the VF-25? Or did Shinsei nab the contract on that one alone?

Only the five we already know about in official media... the Super Pack, Armored Pack, and electronic warfare Aegis Pack seen in the Macross Frontier TV series, the TW1 Tornado Pack seen in the Macross Frontier movies, and the Paladin Pack seen on the YF-25 in Macross R (which is a Super Pack variant).

Variable Fighter Master File has multiple Strike variants of the Super Pack as well, but those have not appeared in any official media as of yet.

 

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MY VFMF VF-25 is waiting for me at the post office . I’m eagerly looking forward to pouring over it, though I can’t read it..

It's pretty good.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[Bolt]

[Bolt]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not sure where you got that designation for the Tornado Pack... it's officially the TW1 Tornado Pack

Macross wiki..

[kajnrig]

Isn't the Macross wiki notorious for having outdated and/or flat-out false articles? Last time I checked one of their articles, I X'ed out after I couldn't figure out where one section started and another ended.

[Bolt]

It’s pretty bad. A limited source of info, when one doesn’t read Japanese..

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Bolt said:

Macross wiki..

5 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Isn't the Macross wiki notorious for having outdated and/or flat-out false articles?

Yes, yes it is... which is why I'm amazed anyone would want to try to reference it.

There is NO editorial oversight over there, fans just write whatever and nobody fact-checks it.

[Sir Galahad®]

I assume this is animation error? Or you could just actually add the missile launchers (or fuel tanks) as is.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Sir Galahad®

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, Sir Galahad® said:

I assume this is animation error? Or you could just actually add the missile launchers (or fuel tanks) as is.

While it's questionable what use a minimally-armed VF-25A is going to be on the battlefield, this FAST Pack setup would be totally reasonable if all you were looking to do was extend the range of the fighter by adding some extra fuel slush as coolant/propellant for space operations.  I can't think of any reason they wouldn't be able to just add the conformal tanks and leave the remainder of the Super Pack off.

(Variable Fighter Master File alleges the VF-1's initial-type FAST Pack was basically this... just some conformal fuel tanks on the legs and an extra fuel tank fitted at the front of the engine.)

[Sildani]

I don’t think Seto said it (this time), but so you know, the NUNS VF-24 is incredibly powerful. I think I’m correct in saying it’s a match for the YF-29, which was so expensive and time-consuming for Macross Frontier to make that they only produced one. 

And the NUNS have a whole lot of them, by now. 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, Sildani said:

I don’t think Seto said it (this time), but so you know, the NUNS VF-24 is incredibly powerful. I think I’m correct in saying it’s a match for the YF-29, which was so expensive and time-consuming for Macross Frontier to make that they only produced one. 

And the NUNS have a whole lot of them, by now. 

There is that, yeah.

The YF-29 is described as being an attempt to surpass the YF-24 Evolution prototype's performance.

Long story short, Earth has The Best Toys.  The VF-X Special Forces units that are part of the central/federal New UN Forces have sufficient clout and funding to do insane things like limited production of an improved version of the YF-29 (the YF-29B Perceval in the Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy story) and YF-30 (mentioned and shown in Master File as the YF-30B in a fetching shade of Barbie pink for some reason.)

[Mommar]

33 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There is that, yeah.

The YF-29 is described as being an attempt to surpass the YF-24 Evolution prototype's performance.

Long story short, Earth has The Best Toys.  The VF-X Special Forces units that are part of the central/federal New UN Forces have sufficient clout and funding to do insane things like limited production of an improved version of the YF-29 (the YF-29B Perceval in the Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy story) and YF-30 (mentioned and shown in Master File as the YF-30B in a fetching shade of Barbie pink for some reason.)

Why go back and take those designs to rework when the 24's are already superior?  Would taking whatever is known about the 24 and actually applying them to the 29/30 make them superior to even the 24 then?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, Mommar said:

Why go back and take those designs to rework when the 24's are already superior? 

Well, at the time (2060) the Earth New UN Forces had only decided to approve the YF-24 Evolution for production three years ago and it would still have had to go through a year or two of operational evaluation prior to the true start of mass production and the widespread adoption of the VF-24 as the next main fighter of the Earth New UN Forces.  Basically, there were probably only a few squadrons of VF-24A's in service when the Vajra attacked Earth in late 2059.  

A VF-X Special Forces unit based way out in the sticks like the 815th Independent Squadron "Hávamál" was wouldn't be a priority for transitioning to the VF-24, and the New UN Government wouldn't have wanted to transmit the unredacted specifications to an emigrant government's factory satellite because that would risk losing the Earth/Central New UN Forces' strategic advantage for settling disputes between New UN Gov't member worlds.  What Hávamál did have access to was the specifications for the YF-29 developed by one of the emigrant fleets, a local emigrant government with its own factory satellite that wasn't about the question them because of their vast authority, a planet loaded with high-quality fold quartz, and a VERY generous expense account.  So the solution to not having the VF-24 was to throw excessive amounts of money and fold quartz at the problem by building a superior quality version of the YF-29 and handing them out to the squadron's top aces like Rod Baltemar... neatly sidestepping the entire problem of not having VF-24s since the YF-29B outclassed pretty much everything an emigrant force could field including Shinsei, LAI, and SMS's YF-30 technology demonstrator being developed in secret aboard the SMS-owned Northampton-class stealth escort carrier Gefion.

 

1 minute ago, Mommar said:

Would taking whatever is known about the 24 and actually applying them to the 29/30 make them superior to even the 24 then?

That's an interesting question with no easy answer since we don't actually know what the specs of the YF-24 Evolution and VF-24 look like... all we know is that it exists, roughly what it looks like in Fighter mode, and that all these super high-spec 5th Gen VFs in the last decade or so of Macross materials are watered down knockoffs of it.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

in a fetching shade of Barbie pink for some reason.

They rebuilt the Pink Pecker squadron!

[Bolt]

Ray would be proud

sounds like the YF-29B outclassed, with the exception of the mythical VF-24,  all the other YF-29 variants include the VF-27 Lucifer AND the YF-30 Chronos ..

And now these watered down VF-31’s..

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, Bolt said:

sounds like the YF-29B outclassed, with the exception of the mythical VF-24,  all the other YF-29 variants include the VF-27 Lucifer AND the YF-30 Chronos ..

We haven't been told exactly how the YF-29B Perceval differs from the base YF-29 Durandal specs-wise, but it's explicitly a higher performance version of the YF-29.

The base model YF-29 alone already had a pretty significant edge on the YF-30 in armament, engine power, and acceleration... the VF-27 Super Lucifer and YF-30 were the only models available to emigrant forces that could even get close to its level of performance.

 

9 hours ago, Bolt said:

And now these watered down VF-31’s..

Yeah, those are approximately on par with the VF-25s.

[Knight26]

On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 8:40 AM, Sir Galahad® said:

I assume this is animation error? Or you could just actually add the missile launchers (or fuel tanks) as is.

A configuration like this could be useful as a high speed recon bird.  Minimal, if any armament, but packed with cameras and sensors for a close pass of an unfriendly target.  The leg FAST Packs would then be used mostly for fuel with the missile launchers a last ditch defense in case anyone gets too close.  It's the Frontier Equivalent of an RF-4C Phantom, Alone, Underarmed, Unafraid.  

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, Knight26 said:

A configuration like this could be useful as a high speed recon bird. 

They appear to use the QF-4000 Ghost in that role in the Macross Frontier TV series.

The Macross Frontier fleet NUNS used QF-4000 Ghosts to conduct forward reconnaissance of the Vajra homeworld at the end of ep23.

 

Just now, Knight26 said:

Minimal, if any armament, but packed with cameras and sensors for a close pass of an unfriendly target.

That looks to be a stock VF-25A though.

IMO, the VF-25F would make a better choice for that kind of role given its enhanced air combat spec includes improvements to avionics and sensors and tunings that boost its agility and acceleration for use in dogfighting and reconnaissance-in-force roles.

 

Just now, Knight26 said:

The leg FAST Packs would then be used mostly for fuel with the missile launchers a last ditch defense in case anyone gets too close.  It's the Frontier Equivalent of an RF-4C Phantom, Alone, Underarmed, Unafraid.  

Variable Fighter Master File included a dedicated reconnaissance model on top of the moderately recon-focused RVF-25.

[Knight26]

All good points.  Perhaps this particular VF-25 comes from a smaller unit that does not have or utilize QF-4000s, or has not found a way around the jamming the Varja used against them early on.  There are any number of reasons why this stripped down VF-25 might exist, including animation error, but that is a pretty glaring error for a craft making such a close pass to the "camera."

[Seto Kaiba]

8 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

All good points.  Perhaps this particular VF-25 comes from a smaller unit that does not have or utilize QF-4000s, or has not found a way around the jamming the Varja used against them early on. 

At the time (c.2059 August), the handful of VF-25s that had been built to date were trial production units built for operational evaluation testing.  The Frontier government contracted the local SMS branch to test those trial production VF-25s in actual combat conditions because there's less red tape involved... especially if somebody dies.

Long story short, there were only a double handful of VF-25s in existence and all stationed aboard one ship: the SMS Macross Quarter.  (You can see the SMS livery on the side of the nose and on the stabilizer.)

We know that the SMS Macross Quarter had at least a few QF-4000s, since Luca had three, and that they had a workaround for the Vajra's high-powered ECM from a fairly early point.

 

8 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

There are any number of reasons why this stripped down VF-25 might exist, including animation error, but that is a pretty glaring error for a craft making such a close pass to the "camera."

There is that, yeah...

[Sir Galahad®]

So if you are fleet and when to update your line of main valks, which would you choose between the VF-25 vs the VF-31 as the performance is roughly the same?

[Bolt]

I think the VF-25 May be a better all around performer. But I’m biased. I prefer it over the 31 in most cases. 

Nice Avatar change up @Seto Kaiba

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Sir Galahad® said:

So if you are fleet and when to update your line of main valks, which would you choose between the VF-25 vs the VF-31 as the performance is roughly the same?

Hm... as unpopular an opinion as it may be, I'm actually going to argue in favor of the VF-31 Kairos on two specific points:

• Better overall cost-performance on the VF-31's part, as the VF-31 can swap roles with a simple change of a modular equipment package rather than needing dedicated variants for particular operational roles the way the VF-25 does.  Logistics are simplified by having one variant to rule them all, instead of having to build specialist variants for roles like ELINT/AWACS, Command, etc.
• Better passive stealth design: the VF-31's going to age a little more gracefully than the VF-25 is in the long run.  The VF-25 Messiah has some concessions to passive stealth like heat sequestration systems and radar-absorbent material, but most of its stealthiness is derived from its 3rd Generation active stealth system.  As radar tech improves, its active stealth system is going to gradually diminish in effectiveness.  The VF-31's emphasis on internally-carried weapons and better overall passive stealth design focus means that it isn't going to be impacted as much by the same degradation in the effectiveness of its 3rd Generation active stealth system.

For a fleet with money to burn that's looking for the most advanced 5th Generation VF, the VF-25 is the obvious choice.

For a fleet that's not flush with cash and that's looking to get maximum long-term value from its investment, the VF-31 is probably the way to go.

I'm a guy who likes to get maximum value for money, so I'd go for the VF-31s.

 

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

I think the VF-25 May be a better all around performer. But I’m biased. I prefer it over the 31 in most cases. 

By the time the VF-31 is finally adopted by the Brisingr Alliance New UN Forces c.2069-2070, the VF-25 will be over ten years old.  It'll doubtless have had some block updates which improved its performance in various areas and ironed out some bugs that've come up in routine operation of large fleets.  It'll also probably have almost as many fleet-specific VF-25 specifications as there are operators of it.  

 

 

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Nice Avatar change up @Seto Kaiba

Thanks.  Quamzin's expression there just perfectly captures the last few days I've had at work.  

Edited August 8, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[Sir Galahad®]

Speaking of VF-25s, there was a G-Variant for Snipers right? Did the 171 have improved optics when it was given a sniper role? I mean if that is the case, the Optics for the VF-25G seems to be a nice to have than a necessary feature.