Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[sketchley]

21 minutes ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

Is there any clarification in background materials on small arms in the Macross universe? From what I've seen, despite the massive advances in tech, actual firearm tech doesn't seem to have progressed much. Mirage is still using a Walther PPK in 2067, surely they'd have found a better way to design a small handgun by then.

There's hardly anything at all... small arms seem to be minor items that appear along the lines of "whatever the viewer will understand at a glance".

Nevertheless, here's a collection of images of the small arms that have appeared up to MF.  Only SDFM started to develop weapons beyond what exist in the real world, and even then, it was only a bazooka...

• http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics/personal/guns.php
• http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics/personal/gunsrifle.php
• http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics/personal/gunsheavy.php

[Seto Kaiba]

37 minutes ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

Is there any clarification in background materials on small arms in the Macross universe? From what I've seen, despite the massive advances in tech, actual firearm tech doesn't seem to have progressed much. Mirage is still using a Walther PPK in 2067, surely they'd have found a better way to design a small handgun by then.

Well, a lot of the improvements in conventional firearms technology that've come from overtechnology have been increases in the power of chemical propellants, the strength of armor-piercing ammunition, special classes of AP rounds, etc.  A lot of that simply wouldn't be applicable to conventional small arms, and the improved propellants would increase power but at the expense of the guns being harder to use safely and accurately.  So most of what we've seen is pretty clearly lightly improved versions of typical modern firearms that may benefit from things like improvements in materials but haven't really changed much because a human being can't safely leverage the kind of improvements OTM could bring.  A lot of them seem to be modeled on Heckler & Koch's stuff... the bland name P8 in Plus and unnamed one in 7, the not-a-MP5 in Plus, and the not-a-G36s used by the New UN Forces infantry and Windermere infantry in Frontier and Delta respectively.

The only thing we've seen that's really "out there" is the laser small arms the Varauta forces and various people in the Zola system used.  The Zolan lasers were apparently non-lethal stunners that could only kill at point-blank range (a nod to Star Trek VI?), where the Varauta ones seemed to be pretty inefficient weapons that routinely shot clean through targets in a massive waste of energy.  (Realistically, you don't want a through-and-through because most of the energy of the shot is being wasted on whatever's behind your target.)  The only really effective energy small arms we see seems to be Feff's pistol in Macross II, which blows an enormous hole in his records officer without any apparent collateral damage.

Even in Macross II, the unused designs for UN Forces small arms (like Sylvie's pistol) were largely conventional weapons.  Sylvie's unused pistol design is a big, chunky revolver.

EX-Gear suits had linear rifles, so apparently the problem of more advanced weapons not being safely usable for humans is not as big an issue if they're wearing a big chunky powered exoskeleton to help them cope with the recoil.

[sketchley]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The explanation also has some issues as to why the Macross Concern was marketing a competitor to their own X-9 Ghost prototype...

 

Perhaps they released both to maximize their chances?  The background of the X-9 is that it is an alternative to a manned VF, after all.

With the X-9, we have a fighter-optimized, low-cost drone, and with the  Variable Gurāji, we have a 3-mode transforming, high-cost drone that can fulfill all the roles of a VF.  (high and low cost are being used here mainly in regards to how much more a Variable Vehicle costs to produce and maintain compared to a static fuselage).

 

Quote

My hypothesis/interpretation would be that the Neo Glaug was probably a parallel development of manned and unmanned modernized versions of the New UN Forces reproduction Variable Glaug.  Having manned and unmanned fighters that shared a considerable number of parts would probably have been a strong selling point form a logistics standpoint, but the manned version apparently wasn't able to adequately rival Shinsei's YF-19 and General Galaxy's YF-21, so it got dropped before the final competition.  They completed the Neo Glaug's unmanned specification only for Isamu to blast it to scrap near Macross City in 2040.  I'd guess the Neo Glaug bis is a manned conversion of the drone specification of the Neo Glaug, essentially re-converting it into a modernized Variable Glaug.

Interesting.
However, I disagree about the Neo-Gurāji Bis: in short, there's nothing in the materials that indicate that it was a conversion from a drone.

In fact, in the initial Macross the Ride materials by Dengeki Hobby, it is solely referred to as "Neo-Gurāji", with the "Bis" being added later!  (I don't have the novels, etc., so I can't confirm exactly when/where the "Bis" was added.)

 

Quote

"Artillery" is a matter of perspective in space where microgravity isn't going to substantially affect the trajectories of shells.

 

I meant that more in the sense of firing different types of shells, in addition to supporting front-line troops from the rear...

Nevermind that the VB-6 Monster is depicted firing shells that are semi-self-guided, and can change trajectory mid-flight.  In space. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by sketchley

[AN/ALQ128]

4 hours ago, sketchley said:

There's hardly anything at all... small arms seem to be minor items that appear along the lines of "whatever the viewer will understand at a glance".

Slightly disappointing, I'd love to see them expand on some of the infantry and armor of the NUNS sometime.

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

EX-Gear suits had linear rifles, so apparently the problem of more advanced weapons not being safely usable for humans is not as big an issue if they're wearing a big chunky powered exoskeleton to help them cope with the recoil.

Makes sense, those EX-Gear rifles dealt with the Macross Galaxy cybernetically enhanced spies and Vajra decently enough, if I remember correctly.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

Slightly disappointing, I'd love to see them expand on some of the infantry and armor of the NUNS sometime.

It'd be interesting, but since Battroids are basically the de facto main infantry force of the New UN Government's various member nations the footsloggers aren't likely to get much focus.

 

8 hours ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

Makes sense, those EX-Gear rifles dealt with the Macross Galaxy cybernetically enhanced spies and Vajra decently enough, if I remember correctly.

Those linear rifles were pretty effective against the Vajra larva in Macross Frontier, but it was the Special Forces models with those special anti-cyborg harpoons that took down the Macross Galaxy fleet's cyborg soldiers.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

Perhaps they released both to maximize their chances?  The background of the X-9 is that it is an alternative to a manned VF, after all.

Oh, I agree it's highly probable the Macross Concern submitted responses to both of the New UN Forces' Requests for Proposals for nextgen fighters.

What makes less sense is that they would submit two responses to General Gomez's unmanned fighter program and end up competing against themselves for the next generation unmanned fighter contract.  Both the AIF-X-9 Ghostbird and Neo Glaug are Macross Concern unmanned fighter prototypes built on their Sharon-type AI.  I can't honestly recall a time when a company ended up competing against itself in a military design competition... 

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

With the X-9, we have a fighter-optimized, low-cost drone, and with the  Variable Gurāji, we have a 3-mode transforming, high-cost drone that can fulfill all the roles of a VF.  (high and low cost are being used here mainly in regards to how much more a Variable Vehicle costs to produce and maintain compared to a static fuselage).

The drone version only had two modes, though... it's only the manned version that was depicted with a Battroid mode.  Eliminating Battroid mode likely cut the cost a fair bit.

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

Interesting.
However, I disagree about the Neo-Gurāji Bis: in short, there's nothing in the materials that indicate that it was a conversion from a drone.

As far as we know, the only version of the Neo Glaug that was actually built was the unmanned version... at least, prior to when we see manned versions in the late 2050s in Macross the Ride (2058) and one of the Macross Frontier manga titles (2059).

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

In fact, in the initial Macross the Ride materials by Dengeki Hobby, it is solely referred to as "Neo-Gurāji", with the "Bis" being added later!  (I don't have the novels, etc., so I can't confirm exactly when/where the "Bis" was added.)

... wait, what?  You've got the actual issues of Dengeki Hobby, right?  Could you check the title pages for chapter 8 "Combat Open"?

If you haven't seen it before, I'm wondering if they changed the unit's name between the light novel's run in Dengeki Hobby and the release of the collected edition and those visual books that collected all the art and modeling pages.  Macross the Ride Visual Book Vol.2's version of the chapter 8 title page has a model-builder credit right under the chapter title that reads: 模型製作:佐藤匠真（NEO GLAUG bis）.  Curiously, in the text of the novel itself, the "bis" part is always written in English while the rest of the mecha's name is always in katakana (save for that title page where it's written in full in English).  The text on the title pages themselves have a few mentions of "bis" in the paragraphs running along the bottom of the next page.

(For those with the Visual Book, I'm referring to pages 18 and 19 of Volume 2.)

[sketchley]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The drone version only had two modes, though... it's only the manned version that was depicted with a Battroid mode.  Eliminating Battroid mode likely cut the cost a fair bit.

 

Please refer to the following (relevant text highlighted) here:
 

Quote

Neo-Gurāji

Appeared in the Playstation game "Macross Plus Game Edition"set in 2040. If the player selects the Isamu Dyson edition, the Neo-Gurāji becomes the interceptor aircraft facing off against the YF-19 in the final stage. In the novel "Macross the Ride", by Kodachi Ukyou, the Neo-Gurāji is described as a Valkyrie that was developed in the 2010's, and was completed by the Macross Concern [Combine] in the AVF Project. In the "Macross Chronicle encyclopedia, the Neo-Gurāji is considered to be an AI-equipped drone operated by Sharon Apple, like the Ghost X-9.

The fuselage takes the basic shape of the Gurāji in GERWALK, and transforms into a trimaran-shaped Fighter. The transformation system—in which the arms and legs overlap each other and form the engine block—is in common with the VF-4 Lightning III, which is a similar trimaran aircraft. Up to a two-stage transformation was in the game due to the limits of the game machine's polygon performance, however a rough copy design of the Battroid mode was also considered. In addition, in the Macross setting the Variable Gurāji was earlier, however, with the actual designs, the Neo-Gurāji was made earlier.

In the novel "Macross Frontier", by Kodachi Ukyou, the Neo-Gurāji was deployed to the 33rd Marine Corps—which was composed of Zentrādi—and Temujin, the leader of the insurrection, boarded a Neo-Gurāji (he boarded a Quadoran-Rea in the TV anime version).

 

Variable Gurāji

Maximilian Jīnasu and Miria Farīna Jīnasu's adopted daughter Moaramia Jifon used it in the Dreamcast game "M3". It appeared as a secret weapon set in Stage 2 in 2018 on planet Christrania, and was developed by a Zentrādi rebel element who had obtained Earth technology. After Moaramia was admitted into the Unified Forces, the Variable Gurāji played an active role as one Valkyrie in the Dancing Skull unit.

The basic form and transformation mechanism of the Valkyrie are almost the same as the Neo-Gurāji. In addition to the features of each part becoming finer, Battroid mode could also be used in this game. For variants, there are a Valkyrie with a giant-sized cockpit identical to the Gurāji, and a Valkyrie seized by the Unified Forces that modified with a My-clone-sized cockpit.

 

My takeaway is that Kawamori-san always intended for a Battroid mode (like the VF-4), but due to game machine performance limits, it wasn't included.

Also, as the Neo-Gurāji only appears in a flying (fighter mode-only) stage, there was really no reason to go to the extra labour to produce a Battroid polygon model.  As it is, the GERWALK mode only appears briefly during special moves (attacks, or missile defence).

 

 

Quote

... wait, what?  You've got the actual issues of Dengeki Hobby, right?  Could you check the title pages for chapter 8 "Combat Open"?

If you haven't seen it before, I'm wondering if they changed the unit's name between the light novel's run in Dengeki Hobby and the release of the collected edition and those visual books that collected all the art and modeling pages.  Macross the Ride Visual Book Vol.2's version of the chapter 8 title page has a model-builder credit right under the chapter title that reads: 模型製作:佐藤匠真（NEO GLAUG bis）.  Curiously, in the text of the novel itself, the "bis" part is always written in English while the rest of the mecha's name is always in katakana (save for that title page where it's written in full in English).  The text on the title pages themselves have a few mentions of "bis" in the paragraphs running along the bottom of the next page.

(For those with the Visual Book, I'm referring to pages 18 and 19 of Volume 2.)

 

Ah... I spotted it now.  I've always referenced the actual model write up pages (50-51 in the aforementioned vol.) which DON'T have the "bis".

I don't have convenient access to the actual magazines (houses in Japan are small.  Ergo big, thick magazines are razored for important stuff and stored away).  However, the part with Ch. 10 was luckily on hand.  Interestingly, it appears that the section from the novelization that's in the magazine and in the Visual Book are... different.

As you've indicated interest in it in another thread: that's not the only difference between the magazine and the Visual Book.  In short, only about half of the supplemental material was republished in the Visual Books.  For example, none of the glossary stuff made the cut.

See here for a vague idea of the differences (another semi-complete translation project on the to-do list): http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/OTdengekihobby.php

 

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

Please refer to the following (relevant text highlighted) here:

... did you grab that from Wikipedia?

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

  My takeaway is that Kawamori-san always intended for a Battroid mode (like the VF-4), but due to game machine performance limits, it wasn't included.

From the sound of it, he never actually completed a Battroid mode design for the Neo Glaug... and only finished the design for the earlier (chronologically) Variable Glaug that made its debut in the later (real-world chronologically) game Macross M3.

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

Ah... I spotted it now.  I've always referenced the actual model write up pages (50-51 in the aforementioned vol.) which DON'T have the "bis".

I don't have convenient access to the actual magazines (houses in Japan are small.  Ergo big, thick magazines are razored for important stuff and stored away).  However, the part with Ch. 10 was luckily on hand.  Interestingly, it appears that the section from the novelization that's in the magazine and in the Visual Book are... different.

I'll check the contents against the light novel's collected edition later today.

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

As you've indicated interest in it in another thread: that's not the only difference between the magazine and the Visual Book.  In short, only about half of the supplemental material was republished in the Visual Books.  For example, none of the glossary stuff made the cut.

Yeah, I've got the first few chapters in the original magazine form but I'd like to get a complete set put together since the light novel itself is on my group's to-do list.

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... did you grab that from Wikipedia?

Re: 3 stages designed, but only two stages appearing in Macross Plus Game Edition due to polygon limits: Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works Pg. 155.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Re: 3 stages designed, but only two stages appearing in Macross Plus Game Edition due to polygon limits: Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works Pg. 155.

Hm.  I guess whoever put that note on the Japanese Wikipedia page must've copied it straight out of the book.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that my question about Wikipedia may have sounded like a snarky remark.  It wasn't intended as such.  Rather, your quotation was formatted pretty much exactly like what I'd read on the subject on Wikipedia when it occurred to me to check where the "bis" was first used, so I was wondering if you'd grabbed it from there.)

Edited May 15, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Hm.  I guess whoever put that note on the Japanese Wikipedia page must've copied it straight out of the book.

It appears that there is a bit of 'and here is what he really said' going on.  Kawamori-san literally only said terse things like "in the earlier game".

Someone elsewhere in MW recently summed it up well: us fans know the franchise better than the creators do.

[sketchley]

Speaking of the Japanese Wikipedia, it does shed some light on the origins on "Gnerl", and its proper reading:

Quote

これまでの各雑誌や書籍には正式名称が記載されておらず不明であるが、『超時空要塞マクロス』第1話での本機の発進シーン直前に、ブリタイ艦オペレーターの「ジナール射出地点です」という台詞があり、PlayStation 3用ゲームソフト『マクロス30 銀河を繋ぐ歌声』においても、敵機名称表示において「Gnerl」と表記されている

Source: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ゼントラーディ軍の兵器#空戦ポッド

Translation:

Although its unknown if an official name has been published in any magazine or book so far, just before this Mobile Weapon's launch scene in Eps 1 of "Super Dimensional Fortress Macross", there is a line where the operator of Buritai's ship says, "Jināru launch point". Also, it is written as "Gnerl" in the enemy aircraft name display in the PS3 game "Macross 30 The Singing Voice That Connects The Galaxy".

 

Perhaps "G-Nar" is a better transliteration than the Nerf phonologically homologous "Gnerl"?

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, sketchley said:

Someone elsewhere in MW recently summed it up well: us fans know the franchise better than the creators do.

Oh, I don't doubt it... I've often opined that Kawamori's view that each Macross series is an island unto itself isn't an actual policy of his, it's just his "get out of fan's question free" card.

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

Although its unknown if an official name has been published in any magazine or book so far, just before this Mobile Weapon's launch scene in Eps 1 of "Super Dimensional Fortress Macross", there is a line where the operator of Buritai's ship says, "Jināru launch point". Also, it is written as "Gnerl" in the enemy aircraft name display in the PS3 game "Macross 30 The Singing Voice That Connects The Galaxy".

Hm... I should check the Egan Loo-assisted subtitles from the Animeigo Super Dimension Fortress Macross release to see how it's spelled there.

When the question of where "Gnerl" is actually used came up, I remember that Macross 30 was the only title I could think of that actually used it.  I only remembered it because there was one area on the Sierra Desert western side that was constantly swarming with Gnerls and Nousjadeul-Gers.

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

Perhaps "G-Nar" is a better transliteration than the Nerf phonologically homologous "Gnerl"?

"GNERL" was what was used onscreen in Macross 30, so it's what I'll be using when I translate it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Just when you think the Macross Galaxy fleet couldn't get any creepier or more horrifying...

I was skimming a Macross Frontier short story titled Wired Warrior, and one of the Galaxy fleet soldiers involved in testing the YF-27-3 Shahar-M one-ups Maris Stella and Project Stella for creepiest unethical Macross Galaxy fleet project.  Greenwich Meridian is a prototype bioroid, and if I'm reading this right her brain isn't synthetic... it's human grey matter which was salvaged from the corpse of a Macross Galaxy corporate army pilot who'd died in battle with a new artificial personality installed on it.  Meridian 01 is basically a cyber-zombie.  It's so distasteful even the normally unflappable Brera is disgusted by it, and cremates Meridian after she's killed in battle.

[Bolt]

Sounds quite gruesome..

I’m telling you, NUNS needs to hunt down those Galaxy execs!

[sketchley]

Hey Seto (and anyone else in the know: have you come across any info on the Zentrādi "Automated Resupply Craft".

For ease of reference, refer to the screen grabs here: https://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/AircraftAux/zen_Tanker.html

 

The name comes from Kazutaka Miyatake's writing on the setting illustration on Memory Perfect Pg 177 (lower right corner).  Part of the craft also appears on the lower left corner of Pg 176.

There's a clearer (= larger) version of that image in This is Animation: Macross Vol #1 (the blue book here http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/books/series_tia1_2.htm ), if you have it.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 5/19/2019 at 6:53 AM, sketchley said:

Hey Seto (and anyone else in the know: have you come across any info on the Zentrādi "Automated Resupply Craft".

Nope, about all we know is that it's a thing... and we only have that from the line art of the overhead shot of the hangar on Vrlitwhai's ship in "Blind Game" from page 89 of This is Animation: Macross Vol.1.

[sketchley]

16 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nope, about all we know is that it's a thing... and we only have that from the line art of the overhead shot of the hangar on Vrlitwhai's ship in "Blind Game" from page 89 of This is Animation: Macross Vol.1.

Thanks.  It would be nice if there was some information on the cool looking mystery vehicles in that same picture (specifically the one described as, and I quote, "?").

Nevertheless, just from the name, it goes to show how awesome Miyatake-san and Kawamori-san are as mecha designers.  Even though it wasn't really depicted in SDFM, it implies that they were cognizant of how quickly the Zentradi Mobile Weapons and Valkyries burn through fuel, and how little fuel they are actually able to carry.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, sketchley said:

Nevertheless, just from the name, it goes to show how awesome Miyatake-san and Kawamori-san are as mecha designers.  Even though it wasn't really depicted in SDFM, it implies that they were cognizant of how quickly the Zentradi Mobile Weapons and Valkyries burn through fuel, and how little fuel they are actually able to carry.

If nothing else, it's one area where Chiba excelled himself... not only working out how much power it'd take to produce the amount of thrust the VF-1 needs in space, but how fast it'd burn through its fuel doing so.  

One fan theory posed by the doujinshi circle FANKY Publishing that I thought was quite sensible was that the large silver "blisters" on the sides of Zentradi warships are high-capacity fuel tanks not dissimilar to the external fuel tanks that officially exist on the Guantanamo-class.  It's something I've been meaning to look into to see if there was any official basis for it.

[twich]

Here is a topic that I have been thinking about for most of the day.  It has been stated many times here and in the "official" description for the valkyrie, that the SV-262, due to its unique transformation, has decreased/limited fuel capacity as compared to other valkyries.  I have been looking at my Bandai DX SV-262, and it would seem that given the structure, there would be places that fuel capacity could be stored.  Those legs, for instance, they are huge, with great internal volume, and no internal missile launchers.  Also, speaking of which, those "divots" for lack of a better term on the legs where the super packs rest in, seems as though the internal volume that those take out of the legs would be perfect to have added fuel capacity.  

I just watched Macross Zero for the first time in a few years, and I remember that the SV-51 had a problem with reduced fuel capacity, so I am wondering if it was a design choice for Kawamori.  

Just wondering what the general thought was

Twich 

[sketchley]

42 minutes ago, twich said:

Here is a topic that I have been thinking about for most of the day.  It has been stated many times here and in the "official" description for the valkyrie, that the SV-262, due to its unique transformation, has decreased/limited fuel capacity as compared to other valkyries.  I have been looking at my Bandai DX SV-262, and it would seem that given the structure, there would be places that fuel capacity could be stored.  Those legs, for instance, they are huge, with great internal volume, and no internal missile launchers.  Also, speaking of which, those "divots" for lack of a better term on the legs where the super packs rest in, seems as though the internal volume that those take out of the legs would be perfect to have added fuel capacity.  

I just watched Macross Zero for the first time in a few years, and I remember that the SV-51 had a problem with reduced fuel capacity, so I am wondering if it was a design choice for Kawamori.  

Just wondering what the general thought was

Twich 

Well, it wasn't just the SV-51, but the VF-0 also had fuel capacity problems (but that's more to do with them using conventional—jet fuel burning—engines).

Regarding the Sv-262: I think the reduced fuel capacity is more to do with underscoring the technology or performance gap between them and the hero Valkyries (which are themselves, not quite as cutting-edge as the VF-25/27/29 of MF).

Nevertheless, the reduced fuel capacity only comes into play outside of an atmosphere, as even the VF-1 (which has a notoriously low fuel capacity) can fly for something like a month on a single fuel load—in the atmosphere.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, twich said:

[...]  It has been stated many times here and in the "official" description for the valkyrie, that the SV-262, due to its unique transformation, has decreased/limited fuel capacity as compared to other valkyries.  [...]  Those legs, for instance, they are huge, with great internal volume, and no internal missile launchers.

I'm not sure if this is represented on the DX Chogokin toy or the model kits, but the Sv-262's legs do have internal bays.

That's where the DAS-03k "Draken Fang" assault sword is stored, the longsword we see them using in the series finale when Keith squares off against another Sv-262Hs remotely controlled by Roid.

The Draken III's problem is that its double delta blended wing body makes for a very compact aircraft with excellent frame rigidity and excellent atmospheric performance, but making the aircraft so compact increases the complexity of the transformation.  The more conventional VF designs keep their fuel tanks in their engine nacelles and their wings.  There's very little wing surface to use for fuel tank space on a Draken III, and the aerodynamics of the blended wing body have them keeping most of the weaponry flush to the surface of the wing or semi-internally, further cutting down on available space that was already at a premium thanks to that complex transformation.  The engine nacelles are the logical place to keep fuel because it's also used as coolant in space, but the engine nacelle doesn't have a ton of room thanks to the armament bay for the sword and the attachment points for missike packs.

They've got more than enough fuel to run probably hundreds of hours in atmosphere, but in space where the fuel consumption is exponentially greater due to using plasma from the reactor as a propellant they come up pretty short compared to other VFs that have a much broader profile like the VF-25 or VF-31.

 

11 hours ago, twich said:

I just watched Macross Zero for the first time in a few years, and I remember that the SV-51 had a problem with reduced fuel capacity, so I am wondering if it was a design choice for Kawamori.  

That was more a general problem with trying to run a VF using conventional turbofan jet engines... because the body has to be able to split apart and rearrange itself during transformation the amount of space to hold fuel is much less than a conventional fighter's, meaning they ended up with lower endurance right off the bat that was exacerbated by greater demands on those engines from the transformation.

[kajnrig]

Just wanted to post because I didn't notice until now.

During the final Isamu/Guld fight in M+, the YF-19 loses not just its gunpod but its head laser as well.

It also doesn't just lose its gunpod. The gunpod is struck by a projectile and breaks in half.

A closer-up of the broken head laser. This close I'm not sure how I missed it the first time.

And while the gunpod magically re-appears later on...

...the head laser never does.

At first I thought this was an animation error showing it on the bottom of the YF a la the original VF-1...

...but on closer inspection it's just the other wing.

[kajnrig]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but In the The False Songstress "next episode preview" of The Wings of Goodbye, there's a red Super VF-1 and what looks to be a Monster in Destroid form with gatling guns in place of its standard missile launcher arms. I can't be arsed to go through all of WoG right now, but I don't recall either of those being in there. Were they simply placeholders? I'd imagine that's the case for at least the VF-1, to avoid revealing the YF-29 early. If not, where in the movie do they show up and why?

[Seto Kaiba]

35 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

I'm sure this has been asked before, but In the The False Songstress "next episode preview" of The Wings of Goodbye, there's a red Super VF-1 and what looks to be a Monster in Destroid form with gatling guns in place of its standard missile launcher arms. I can't be arsed to go through all of WoG right now, but I don't recall either of those being in there.

The VB-6 Konig Monster with the gatling cannon arms never shows up in the final version of Wings of Goodbye, but the red VF-1 is used in one of Ranka's concerts.  IIRC the novelization of the film indicates that it's a real aircraft used for the concert, and that it's actually a VF-1X++ Valkyrie Double Plus.

[kajnrig]

23 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

the novelization of the film indicates that it's a real aircraft used for the concert, and that it's actually a VF-1X++ Valkyrie Double Plus.

Same kind of VF-1X++ as in Macross the Ride? Is it a civilian model, or military? Am I right in assuming that it's based on the VF-1X Valkyrie Plus?

[sketchley]

8 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Same kind of VF-1X++ as in Macross the Ride? Is it a civilian model, or military? Am I right in assuming that it's based on the VF-1X Valkyrie Plus?

As the VF-1X++ appears only in MtR, it'd have to be the same as that one (albeit with different Super Parts, paint colours/markings, specs, etc.)

 

Civilian or military: at that point in the timeline, the VF-1 is treated similarly to the P-51 Mustang is in the real world*.  So, it's more than likely that it is a civilian owned Valkyrie.

Was it a military one that has it's weapons removed?  I think a fairer question is: when they sell Valkyries to civilians, do they remove the weapons at all?  M7 implies otherwise. 

Anyhow, as it's described as a "VF-1X++", it would originally have had to be a military spec Valkyrie (otherwise it'd be a "VC-1C++" or something along those lines).

 

* This is  a "for ease of understanding" comparison.  The in-universe reality is... different. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Same kind of VF-1X++ as in Macross the Ride?

Not exactly... the VF-1X++ in Macross the Ride was a unit that'd apparently been disarmed and sold off to former NUNS Special Forces ace Hakuna Aoba, who (further) modified it for use as an air racing Valkyrie.

The one that appears in Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye doesn't appear to have those racing mods, so it might be a unit in stock configuration or close to it.

 

10 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Is it a civilian model, or military?7

As produced?  Military.

As it appeared?  We don't know... it's identified in the novel, but they don't get into whether it's a loaner from the military or a civilian aftermarket unit.

 

10 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Am I right in assuming that it's based on the VF-1X Valkyrie Plus?

Yes, the VF-1X++ was a further upgrade made for the New UN Spacy Special Forces in the late 2040s or early 2050s.

Due to the large number of VF-1s that've been sold off into civilian hands, the Special Forces essentially made it a VF-1 for covert operations... as silly as the idea of covert operations in a 13m tall robot sounds.

 

Incidentally, the song it appeared on was Love is a Dogfight during Ranka's first live.

 

 

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Was it a military one that has it's weapons removed?  I think a fairer question is: when they sell Valkyries to civilians, do they remove the weapons at all?  M7 implies otherwise. 

Macross R's take on the question leans towards disarming Valkyries before selling them off to civilians being the norm and that VFs produced for the civilian market are unarmed by default.  Both Macross R and the Macross 30 novelization seem to lean towards the idea that whether it's actually required is something that varies at the local government level.

On Uroboros, the local government seems to be A-OK with independent civilians operating armed VFs provided they obtain a license to do so beforehand.

I'd imagine the Macross 7 fleet might be having second thoughts about its loosey-goosey attitude towards civilian-owned armed mecha after those three geezers accidentally took the top off a skyscraper with a Mk.II Monster though.  

The Vanquish League itself doesn't seem to particularly care if the VFs racing are capable of mounting weapons as long as those weapons aren't installed on the VF when it's racing, given that at least one VF (Anthony Clemens's VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor) is noted to be capable of mounting weapons designed for the VF-19 and VF-22 thanks to its newer FCS, while most every VF actually participating in the races is noted to have no weaponry and in a few cases having had its weaponry removed and replaced with other systems (as was the case on Nicolas Berthier's VF-9E).

[JB0]

10 hours ago, sketchley said:

Was it a military one that has it's weapons removed?  I think a fairer question is: when they sell Valkyries to civilians, do they remove the weapons at all?  M7 implies otherwise. 

Hey, it's a dangerous galaxy out there. Be prepared.

[Bolt]

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Due to the large number of VF-1s that've been sold off into civilian hands, the Special Forces essentially made it a VF-1 for covert operations... as silly as the idea of covert operations in a 13m tall robot sounds.

In this context, are we to believe that covert operations means , “looking like all the other old time. VF-1’s putting around” ? Were these “covert VF’s higher performance models than the average VF-x+,etc? Or better armed/ armored?

[sketchley]

53 minutes ago, Bolt said:

In this context, are we to believe that covert operations means , “looking like all the other old time. VF-1’s putting around” ? Were these “covert VF’s higher performance models than the average VF-x+,etc? Or better armed/ armored?

Short answers:  yes, yes, unknown (it can use the VF-25's GU-17A.  So that kind of counts as better armed)

Long answer: please compare the stats (green is official setting) for:

• VF-1X: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics/VF-1/VF-1X.php
• VF-1X++: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics/VF-1/VF-1X++.php

(You'll want to be focusing on comparing the parts with "Hakuna Special" in the VF-1X++ ver.)

[Bolt]

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Bolt said:

In this context, are we to believe that covert operations means , “looking like all the other old time. VF-1’s putting around” ?

Pretty much, but I get a chuckle out of the idea of a bunch of giant robots tiptoeing around.

 

2 hours ago, Bolt said:

Were these “covert VF’s higher performance models than the average VF-x+,etc? Or better armed/ armored?

Ja, though since the only spec we've had is for a further-customized racing plane we don't know by how much.

Hakuna Aoba, being a reasonable man and a model of restraint and moderation, decided his VF-1X++ wasn't competitive enough so he swapped the engines for a pair of LAI-made engines meant for an unmanned fighter with comparable power to a VF-22 and then strapped rocket boosters to the sides.  Nothing says safe sport like an almost totally uncontrollable mess that's forever breaking down and always one twitch away from being a slowly dissipating fireball, right?

(It says something that league champ Nicolas Francois Berthier flies a VF known for its habit of SPONTANEOUSLY EXPLODING and Hakuna Aoba's VF-1X++ Custom is considered less safe.)

[Bolt]

Woa..  Yhe VF-1 is the ultimate hot rod..

more time..

[JB0]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Pretty much, but I get a chuckle out of the idea of a bunch of giant robots tiptoeing around.

It is okay, they paint them black so they're invisible!

[camk4evr]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Pretty much, but I get a chuckle out of the idea of a bunch of giant robots tiptoeing around.

 

Ja, though since the only spec we've had is for a further-customized racing plane we don't know by how much.

Hakuna Aoba, being a reasonable man and a model of restraint and moderation, decided his VF-1X++ wasn't competitive enough so he swapped the engines for a pair of LAI-made engines meant for an unmanned fighter with comparable power to a VF-22 and then strapped rocket boosters to the sides.  Nothing says safe sport like an almost totally uncontrollable mess that's forever breaking down and always one twitch away from being a slowly dissipating fireball, right?

(It says something that league champ Nicolas Francois Berthier flies a VF known for its habit of SPONTANEOUSLY EXPLODING and Hakuna Aoba's VF-1X++ Custom is considered less safe.)

Wait wouldn't that tend to make your racing career fairly short?