What are the chances of the next Macross having a more adult art style?

[JetJockey]

I haven't finished Macross Delta, I stopped watching after 7 or so episodes. But recently when looking at parts of the anime for Mirage battle scenes, I thought back to when I first saw Robotech / Macross. How the opening was serious and the art style was adult at the time for me. Then I watched all the Macross openings and there definitely is a huge difference between the art style and tone of that original Macross opening compared to the current Macross Delta opening.

 

The question is what are the chances of the next or even future Macross series looking more adult again? Something like the new Yamato series.

[Einherjar]

The current Robotech comic thread should have all the grittiness you are looking for.

[no3Ljm]

Like omitting this kind of facial expression? Because IIRC, I don't remember seeing Minmay doing this. Did Ranka or Sheryl have this kind of expressions too? I'm not sure if it's going to work and help out Delta.

 

It would be nice to see another Macross series that's somehow in-par with Macross Zero style and seriousness.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by no3Ljm

[Graham]

As much as I'd like a dark and gritty Gundam Thunderbolt-ish version of Macross, I doubt we'll get it.

 

[arbit]

Well, we got Frontier after 7. So there is still hope for a well plotted structure with character development and a strong story. That's my minimum requirement for any genre of book, TV or movie. I dont mind if its kiddie or adult oriented, as long as the plot is strong.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, JetJockey said:

I haven't finished Macross Delta, I stopped watching after 7 or so episodes. But recently when looking at parts of the anime for Mirage battle scenes, I thought back to when I first saw Robotech / Macross. How the opening was serious and the art style was adult at the time for me.

It hasn't actually changed much... you've just gotten older, and perhaps nostalgia has glossed over the goofier moments in the original series in your memory.

[Sir Galahad®]

You mean adult like this? 

[Sir Galahad®]

Well Sheryl has this expression, Hehe!

[no3Ljm]

2 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Well Sheryl has this expression, Hehe!

True. But not as too much like Freyja's. I mean, hers is more like emoji-driven Macross character faces.   You know what, Bandai should make Freyja stickies or emojis.  

8 hours ago, Graham said:

As much as I'd like a dark and gritty Gundam Thunderbolt-ish version of Macross, I doubt we'll get it.

Someday I would like to see a treatment like that even if it's just an OAV.

 

[kajnrig]

Calling SDFM's art style "adult" is ridiculous. EVERYTHING looked like that at the time. All of the what would grow into "shounen" anime did, at any rate. As Macross has grown, it has changed styles to suit its needs, be that including other "genres" or matching the popular trends of the time.

Moe is the popular YA style right now. If SDFM were made today, it would surely feature character designs that match those of Frontier and Delta.

[no3Ljm]

5 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Calling SDFM's art style "adult" is ridiculous. EVERYTHING looked like that at the time. All of the what would grow into "shounen" anime did, at any rate. As Macross has grown, it has changed styles to suit its needs, be that including other "genres" or matching the popular trends of the time.

Moe is the popular YA style right now. If SDFM were made today, it would surely feature character designs that match those of Frontier and Delta.

Well, think of this way. Back then when you were young, you see this styles as 'adult-ish' compared to Looney Tunes, Popeye, Mickey Mouse, etc. back then. You know, it's like watching G.I.Joe without the goofiness. And now seeing the new intros and anime as JetJockey pointed out, it's not too 'adult-ish' to him anymore. Probably because he sees the new ones now as too 'child-ish' for him since he got older. I'm just assuming here based on what I understand about his post so please don't quote me on this. I'm sure he only wants to see a Macross series that's leaning towards more to the matured crowd ala-Macross Plus. Hence, his question:

12 hours ago, JetJockey said:

...what are the chances of the next or even future Macross series looking more adult again? Something like the new Yamato series.

Same thing as me. Before my interest wane out, I want to see a Macross done in that way -- I wish. It's a wishful thinking to see a Macross OAV or a new series done in a way that Gundam are doing with their Origin and Thunderbolt approach. What are the chances indeed? 

 

[JetJockey]

14 hours ago, Graham said:

As much as I'd like a dark and gritty Gundam Thunderbolt-ish version of Macross, I doubt we'll get it.

 

 

I hate to admit it but I still haven't watched a Gundam anime in full yet. And I have a few artbooks too for some reason. Plus some saved opening videos and songs. That Gundam Thunderbolt looks awesome though. I'm going to start at the beginning one day.

 

4 hours ago, no3Ljm said:

Well, think of this way. Back then when you were young, you see this styles as 'adult-ish' compared to Looney Tunes, Popeye, Mickey Mouse, etc. back then. You know, it's like watching G.I.Joe without the goofiness. And now seeing the new intros and anime as JetJockey pointed out, it's not too 'adult-ish' to him anymore. Probably because he sees the new ones now as too 'child-ish' for him since he got older. I'm just assuming here based on what I understand about his post so please don't quote me on this. I'm sure he only wants to see a Macross series that's leaning towards more to the matured crowd ala-Macross Plus.

Exactly. Macross was new to me then. It was adult compared to other cartoons. For me Robotech, Gatchaman / Battle of the Planets, and a few others were like that compared to the other cartoons at the time like Bugs Bunny.

 

A simple comparison with the original Macross Opening versus the Macross Delta opening and the only similar things are the transforming jets. Times change but should the look and tone be that different?

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by JetJockey

[Einherjar]

Again, I'm guessing all the points you brought up are supposed to be selling points for the Titan Comics reboot.  Whether it actually succeeds in it is something else.  In fact, I'm surprised people here are not more positive about it after the salty reception Delta got.  If you're lucky they might even kill off Minmay in a few issues and become even more over the top adult in both style and tone.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Einherjar

[Sir Galahad®]

Macross is more light hearted than Gundam.... In Gundam, I saw Characters Cry out in Rage. There was no KIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRA!!!! ATTTTRRUUUUUUN! We don't see emo Characters like Io Fleming who gets angry everytime he can't beat Daryl and grunts when he misses his targets. I think Alto is the most emo we have seen and it was light compared. Even Guld isn't as angry as most of the Gundam protagonists that I have watched.

[kajnrig]

I mean, Gundam's fine and all, even if I can never get into it, but we can all at least agree that no one wants to see a repeat of this:

 

[JetJockey]

3 hours ago, Einherjar said:

Again, I'm guessing all the points you brought up are supposed to be selling points for the Titan Comics reboot.  Whether it actually succeeds in it is something else.  In fact, I'm surprised people here are not more positive about it after the salty reception Delta got.  If you're lucky they might even kill off Minmay in a few issues and become even more over the top adult in both style and tone.

That was not my intention from what I've seen of that comic. The art style is all over the place in the previews I've seen.

[Seto Kaiba]

20 hours ago, no3Ljm said:

Same thing as me. Before my interest wane out, I want to see a Macross done in that way -- I wish. It's a wishful thinking to see a Macross OAV or a new series done in a way that Gundam are doing with their Origin and Thunderbolt approach. What are the chances indeed? 

Practically zero... Macross is, as Kawamori has said, a love story first and a mecha series second.  It simply isn't compatible with classic Gundam's bleak, dark, hopeless outlook or the lame over-the-top gritty tryhard nonsense in Thunderbolt that crosses the line into accidental self-parody.

Plus, y'know, Kawamori ain't too keen on the idea of direct sequels and remakes.

 

10 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Macross is more light hearted than Gundam.... In Gundam, I saw Characters Cry out in Rage. There was no KIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRA!!!! ATTTTRRUUUUUUN! We don't see emo Characters like Io Fleming who gets angry everytime he can't beat Daryl and grunts when he misses his targets.

... eh, I dunno if that's entirely true.  I mean, Guld and Isamu did exchange a few "Say My Name!" moments in Plus, and in 7 Gamlin had a couple mild temper tantrums and a modest character arc devoted to being pissed off that Basara is a better pilot than he is... though that was far milder than anything in Gundam, and at least part of it was played for laughs at Gamlin's expense.

 

12 hours ago, Einherjar said:

Again, I'm guessing all the points you brought up are supposed to be selling points for the Titan Comics reboot.  Whether it actually succeeds in it is something else.  In fact, I'm surprised people here are not more positive about it after the salty reception Delta got.  If you're lucky they might even kill off Minmay in a few issues and become even more over the top adult in both style and tone.

So far, Titan Comics is having exactly the problem I outlined above for Gundam Thunderbolt... Titan Comics' staff is trying SO HARD to rework the story into this grim, dark, gritty mecha/action series it became unintentionally hilarious.  You can tell it's a dark, serious story because everybody grimaces 24/7, and you know it's an action series because everybody strikes poses like they're modeling for a movie poster in every panel.  It's right up there with the Doom comic for unintentional silliness.

(The only difference is Gundam Thunderbolt doesn't quite manage unintentional hilarity... it only got as far as feeling like a Tite Kubo-style "Take That!" aimed at Gundam fanfic writers.)

[Valkyrie Driver]

I think if we were to see a grittier story in Macross, it would have to be an OVA. I think that a gritty war story in a 25-27 episode series would just be exhausting for Macross. I think that the OVA format would be best since it's both long in episode runtime, but short in total runtime, compared to a 25 episode series. I mean a 6 episode OVA with 50 minute episodes is 5 hours total runtime, while a 25 episode series with 30 minute episodes is 12.5 hours of runtime. 

As for Freyja's emoji-ness...

That was actually something that I didn't mind. It was stylistically similar to Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, and I actually really liked how expressive her character was. Freyja actually broke up the monotony of all the angst. Messer broods, Hayate rebels, Mirage is constantly frustrated by Hayate, and there is this looming shadow over the whole show, that sort of has this feeling of dread. Granted, I don't think it was as well executed as FMA Brotherhood, but having an overly expressive character did break up the tone a bit and give some reprieve. 

Even in real life, there are moments in such somber and horrifying events, that make you smile (and not in that macabre death is funny kind of way). Take the Christmas Truce of 1914 as an example, 2 days of Jocularity between enemies, in an otherwise horrifying and tragic war that claimed millions of lives. Or when you have truly over the top people like "Mad Jack" Churchill, who commanded an amphibious raid into Norway during WW2, wearing a kilt, brandishing a broadsword and Longbow. Who was also recorded as having said to an american soldier at one point, after retrieving his sword dropped earlier during battle, that they were on their own because he wasn't going to make a third trip. 

I don't mind some of the frivolity, or indeed how much, in Macross. I like the optimism that it shows, because I am not an optimistic person when it comes to people... 

[kajnrig]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Practically zero... Macross is, as Kawamori has said, a love story first and a mecha series second.  It simply isn't compatible with classic Gundam's bleak, dark, hopeless outlook or the lame over-the-top gritty tryhard nonsense in Thunderbolt that crosses the line into accidental self-parody.

Plus, y'know, Kawamori ain't too keen on the idea of direct sequels and remakes.

Then again, some changes to the formula couldn't hurt. It is getting a bit stale. It's been suggested before, but a Patlabor-esque show centered around a Destroid crew seems like it would be interesting. Just a bunch of run of the mill guys and gals who couldn't care less about The Sky, who man we just wanna get through this day without some crazy girl attacking the alien bugs with music and her hot boyfriend stealing our robot... Something that takes the piss out of itself a bit like how G Gundam did to Gundam.

[Einherjar]

On September 25, 2017 at 10:05 PM, JetJockey said:

That was not my intention from what I've seen of that comic. The art style is all over the place in the previews I've seen.

That might actually count as part of an adult art style in West these days.

[Ash Charger]

Can we be true grit please?

 

[Dynaman]

Hey!  Those guys stole the helmets from the Rebellion in Star Wars.

As for a more adult style - it can be done without it ending up looking like that Titan Comics mess.  Characters who don't look like pre-teens would be a good start.

[Sir Galahad®]

Well most of the lead characters were teens. I think it was just the art style in the 70's and 80s just made them look older. Like Misa. If you watched it, how old would you think she would be? She was 19 in the Series. Hikaru and Max were 16.

Most of the Art Styles now focuses on the kawaii, the moeblob and all that stuff..

[AN/ALQ128]

On 9/26/2017 at 9:24 AM, kajnrig said:

Then again, some changes to the formula couldn't hurt. It is getting a bit stale. It's been suggested before, but a Patlabor-esque show centered around a Destroid crew seems like it would be interesting. Just a bunch of run of the mill guys and gals who couldn't care less about The Sky, who man we just wanna get through this day without some crazy girl attacking the alien bugs with music and her hot boyfriend stealing our robot... Something that takes the piss out of itself a bit like how G Gundam did to Gundam.

So more like FMP: Fumoffu?

[kajnrig]

31 minutes ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

So more like FMP: Fumoffu?

Not necessarily. Fumoffu took the preexisting high school slapstick humor of the franchise and ratcheted it up to 11. Macross doesn't balance slapstick comedy and action thriller quite like FMP does - mostly Macross is just lighthearted - so something like Fumoffu wouldn't work as well. I'm thinking of something about the little guys, a la Patlabor, who don't really care all that much about the larger goings-on of the universe. Or G Gundam (which is a bit more meta about it), that takes Gundam's tendency to be self-important while flirting with silly super robot tropes and turns it on its head.

[arbit]

Without going all the way back to SDFM (since we are considered grumpy old foggies for even hoping), what are the chances the next Macross series even has as good a story and characters as Frontier?

Edited September 29, 2017 by arbit

[JetJockey]

11 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Well most of the lead characters were teens. I think it was just the art style in the 70's and 80s just made them look older. Like Misa. If you watched it, how old would you think she would be? She was 19 in the Series. Hikaru and Max were 16.

Most of the Art Styles now focuses on the kawaii, the moeblob and all that stuff..

It wasn't until I read one of the Robotech Art books that have the character profiles that I found out they were young. I think all the main characters in Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada were young. The only character I knew was in her teens when watching the show was Minmay. I thought most were at least 20s. Far older than I was at the time I originally watched the anime.

[Ash Charger]

13 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Hey!  Those guys stole the helmets from the Rebellion in Star Wars.

Laughed way harder than I should have.

[slide]

13 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Well most of the lead characters were teens. I think it was just the art style in the 70's and 80s just made them look older. Like Misa. If you watched it, how old would you think she would be? She was 19 in the Series. Hikaru and Max were 16.

Most of the Art Styles now focuses on the kawaii, the moeblob and all that stuff..

The global population's age distribution would also have become very skewed after the Unification wars if they were at all as devastating as they're supposed to be.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 9/26/2017 at 12:24 PM, kajnrig said:

Then again, some changes to the formula couldn't hurt. It is getting a bit stale. It's been suggested before, but a Patlabor-esque show centered around a Destroid crew seems like it would be interesting.

Destroids are a dead-end mechanical concept in the Macross setting... the only way they'd be able to do that would be if they did it during the Unification Wars when destroids were still a viable battlefield concept, and that wouldn't make for lighthearted viewing.  That'd be the kind of Gundam-esque, soul-crushing despair-a-thon with Cheyenne and Tomahawk series destroids squaring off against (and massacring) main battle tanks and infantry.  (Think MS IGLOO 2: Gravity Front's second episode.)  After the First Space War, destroids are basically only useful for target practice and industrial machinery.

 

 

10 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Not necessarily. Fumoffu took the preexisting high school slapstick humor of the franchise and ratcheted it up to 11. Macross doesn't balance slapstick comedy and action thriller quite like FMP does - mostly Macross is just lighthearted - so something like Fumoffu wouldn't work as well. I'm thinking of something about the little guys, a la Patlabor, who don't really care all that much about the larger goings-on of the universe. Or G Gundam (which is a bit more meta about it), that takes Gundam's tendency to be self-important while flirting with silly super robot tropes and turns it on its head.

Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu just capitalized on the lighthearted fish-out-of-water comedy from Full Metal Panic!'s first story arc for a breather before the second arc (animated as Full Metal Panic! the Second Raid) kicked off and subsequently all-but-annihilated humor in favor of Cerberus Syndrome... which Full Metal Panic! Invisible Victory is going to continue in its adaptation of the lead-in to the third, final, and darkest story arc of the lot.

Macross has always had at least some humor and strictly-humor breather episodes, so it wouldn't be a stretch to stick a Fumoffu-style series out there.  (I insist Macross 7 WAS a Fumoffu-style joke series half the time.)

 

 

4 hours ago, arbit said:

Without going all the way back to SDFM (since we are considered grumpy old foggies for even hoping), what are the chances the next Macross series even has as good a story and characters as Frontier?

Well, that's entirely down to who's writing it... the annoying part is that the OTHER authors working on Macross Delta for stuff like manga did a much better job with its cast than the guys writing the show.  Macross Delta: the Black-Winged White Knight does SO MUCH to make the Aerial Knights actually developed and interesting... 

 

 

2 hours ago, JetJockey said:

It wasn't until I read one of the Robotech Art books that have the character profiles that I found out they were young. I think all the main characters in Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada were young. The only character I knew was in her teens when watching the show was Minmay. I thought most were at least 20s. Far older than I was at the time I originally watched the anime.

These shows are aimed predominantly at high schoolers, so they're naturally going to try to make the main character young enough to be relatable to the audience.

The... adaptation... aged up many of the characters arbitrarily, but accidentally locked others into younger ages or retroactively made relationships creepy and even criminal.  IIRC the only ones for whom there was enough info to surmise ages were their version of Minmay and their version of Jeanne Francaix.

[arbit]

On 9/29/2017 at 6:39 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

  Macross Delta: the Black-Winged White Knight does SO MUCH to make the Aerial Knights actually developed and interesting... 

That's the key, I think. In general the anime industry needs better story and character development. You can have the odd production that is entertaining in other ways without a classic plot structure, but I dont think an entire industry can survive without the basics of good story telling.

Edited October 1, 2017 by arbit