Harmony Gold suing Tatsunoko

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, TehPW said:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=60546.450;topicseen#lastPost  Is this true? March 21, 2021, HG losses ALL of the various TM's they have involving RT?

Assuming they're unable to negotiate a renewal, yes.

A few years ago, renewal would've seemed pretty likely.  Now that relations are souring between Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko, and Tatsunoko is under new management, there's a fair chance it really will end up not getting renewed since Tatsunoko is seemingly feeling sufficiently hard done by over the matter of royalties to blow off an arbitration settlement order to pay Harmony Gold's legal fees.

[jenius]

They'll net the legal fees from the renewal... They're basically acting like the renewal is a foregone conclusion. I feel like there is a lot of misplaced hope out there. I hope I'm wrong.

[Dynaman]

Lawsuits between business partners is usually not a good sign for a renewed partnership.  There are other players in the field of licensing Japanese Animation in the US that have far better relationships with the Japanese now as well.  I have no prediction either way however.

[Seto Kaiba]

44 minutes ago, jenius said:

They'll net the legal fees from the renewal... They're basically acting like the renewal is a foregone conclusion. I feel like there is a lot of misplaced hope out there. I hope I'm wrong.

Of course Harmony Gold's Robotech staff are publicly acting like renewing the license is a foregone conclusion... they're literally not allowed not to.  The company's default PR strategy when it comes to anything remotely negative is to deny and keep denying even after the truth becomes comically obvious.  There are some examples where the truth came out almost 25 years ago and they STILL deny it to the hilt in public appearances.

Mark my words, if they're not able to renew the license they'll do the exact same thing Palladium Books did when Harmony Gold yanked their Robotech license.  They'll deny anything is amiss and categorically insist that all is well, to the extent of forcibly silencing anyone who claims otherwise from any of their online communities, until just before the license's term expires.  Then they'll act like the loss of the license is a brand new stunning development, clearance their leftover inventory, and become mysteriously unavailable until the dust settles.

 

30 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Lawsuits between business partners is usually not a good sign for a renewed partnership.  There are other players in the field of licensing Japanese Animation in the US that have far better relationships with the Japanese now as well.  I have no prediction either way however.

Not to mention Tatsunoko's been spotted extending an olive branch to Big West at events in Japan.

If Big West offered Tatsunoko a percentage in exchange for yanking HG's license, I don't doubt for a second they'd jump at the chance.  They wanted it badly enough to sue for it back in the early 2000s.

[Knight26]

Don't forget, Bandai has a vested interest in Macross now too.  I'm sure they will be all over working with Big West to buy the rights from Tatsunoko so that they can finally market Macross products outside of Japan; BluRays, Models, Toys, etc...

[Focslain]

32 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

Don't forget, Bandai has a vested interest in Macross now too.  I'm sure they will be all over working with Big West to buy the rights from Tatsunoko so that they can finally market Macross products outside of Japan; BluRays, Models, Toys, etc...

Gods that's right and they have 3 series and an OVA to work on that have not seen outside Japan unless rabid fans smuggled them out.

[kajnrig]

IIRC, the only rights Tatsunoko has is the international distribution rights to the original SDFM. The reason no one is going ahead with releasing the sequels is because of the Tatsu/HG deal/fiasco. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, kajnrig said:

IIRC, the only rights Tatsunoko has is the international distribution rights to the original SDFM. The reason no one is going ahead with releasing the sequels is because of the Tatsu/HG deal/fiasco. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Tatsunoko has the international distribution and merchandising rights to Super Dimension Fortress Macross, and the international merchandising rights to Macross: Do You Remember Love?.

(Harmony Gold only added the DYRL? merch rights to the scope of its license in the early 2000s, in their bid to stop the higher-quality imported Macross VF-1 toys from competing with their Toynami VF-1 MPCs.)

The reason the sequels aren't being released here is the trademarks that HG filed for on Macross's logo and several key terms and symbols like the UN Forces roundel and "UN SPACY", which allow them to block pretty much all Macross licensing by threatening to sue for trademark infringement.

[Focslain]

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Tatsunoko has the international distribution and merchandising rights to Super Dimension Fortress Macross, and the international merchandising rights to Macross: Do You Remember Love?.

(Harmony Gold only added the DYRL? merch rights to the scope of its license in the early 2000s, in their bid to stop the higher-quality imported Macross VF-1 toys from competing with their Toynami VF-1 MPCs.)

The reason the sequels aren't being released here is the trademarks that HG filed for on Macross's logo and several key terms and symbols like the UN Forces roundel and "UN SPACY", which allow them to block pretty much all Macross licensing by threatening to sue for trademark infringement.

So that brings up the question (or has and been answered) does the lose of HG licence mean they can't hold the trademarks and just hold our beloved franchise hostage indefinitely?

[renegadeleader1]

19 minutes ago, Focslain said:

So that brings up the question (or has and been answered) does the lose of HG licence mean they can't hold the trademarks and just hold our beloved franchise hostage indefinitely?

Per the recent court settlement between HG and Tatsunoko, Tats gets everything including the copyrights. The only exception is the word Robotech.

Quote

2. Relief Granted in favor of Respondent
a. Claimant’s right to use the Programs for production and/or exploitation of new works expires on March 14, 2021 along with any extant sublicenses as all rights to the Programs revert back to Respondent at that time.
b. Upon expiration of the term of the Operative Agreements, the Claimant no longer has any right to use or exploit derivative works produced during the term, which contain portions of the Programs, as rights to the Programs revert back to Respondent at that time.
c. Claimant has no permanent, exclusive, and irrevocable copyright and trademark rights in the Programs as same shall belong to Respondent on expiration of the term in 2021;
d. Upon expiration of the term, Respondent shall have the right and option to disaffirm/cancel any existing licenses, assignments and/or other agreements extending beyond the term as may have been entered into by Claimant with others granting any rights in and to the Programs

Edited April 6, 2018 by renegadeleader1

[Focslain]

Ok, so basically if the licence doesn't get renewed the whole thing break free, as far as we know.

[azrael]

As I said...

14 hours ago, TheLoneWolf said:

 As azrael mentioned, if Apple and Samsung can continue doing business together, so can Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko.

Never say never in the world of business. March 2021 is still ~3 years away. Lawsuits between business partners is nothing new and doesn't stop them from continuing a business relationship.

As I've mentioned, this thread is about someone not paying someone, the 2 parties hashing out a fair payment plan, then actually paying that set payment. We just happen to have gotten a nice backstory for how we got here. It's not about yanking or losing any license. No one is yanking or losing anything. "Expire" and "renewal" are the only words which apply here.

They still have plenty of time to renew if they want to renew.

On the flip side, this is a very good time for Tatsunoko to reign in its IPs worldwide. Japan does know there is a market for their goods outside of Japan. They are free to reign in everything and do it themselves or do so in a manner that benefits themelves greater than this relationship with HG.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

12 minutes ago, renegadeleader1 said:

Per the recent court settlement between HG and Tatsunoko, Tats gets everything including the copyrights. The only exception is the word Robotech.

Not quite everything.

Section 2b says that, on expiration of the license, Harmony Gold USA may no longer use or exploit derivative works produced under the license [using/based on] the works licensed from Tatsunoko.

Section 2c is the one that answers Focslain's question, indicating that all copyrights, trademarks, etc. on the original shows Harmony Gold held or filed for under license revert to Tatsunoko.

In short, the only parts of Robotech that Harmony Gold will retain access to once the license is up are the parts that were 100% their own original creation.  Anything that was simply adapted from the shows licensed to them by Tatsunoko is off the table and owned by Tatsunoko.  New material HG created would be owned by HG, but the parts that are based on the shows would be unusable due to being based on a property HG no longer has access to.  At the end of the day, all they'd be left with animation-wise is Robotech 3000, the only 100% original work they had.  They might still be able to use the names they changed, the show's macguffin, and some of the setting details HG came up with themselves.

 

 

1 minute ago, Focslain said:

Ok, so basically if the licence doesn't get renewed the whole thing break free, as far as we know.

Pretty much.

[dizman]

Do we have any idea what HG pays Tastunoko annually for the rights or is that all hush hush?

[renegadeleader1]

42 minutes ago, dizman said:

Do we have any idea what HG pays Tastunoko annually for the rights or is that all hush hush?

I don't have the exact number off hand, but I do know it's not a lot. It's basically the same as what the original deal was for without any adjustments for inflation. This is pretty much the real reason behind behind the HG Tatsunoko rift. Tatsunoko is basically given away the rights for peanuts and the new owners there aren't happy because they know they can get more just shopping it around.

[Seto Kaiba]

17 minutes ago, renegadeleader1 said:

This is pretty much the real reason behind behind the HG Tatsunoko rift. Tatsunoko is basically given away the rights for peanuts and the new owners there aren't happy because they know they can get more just shopping it around.

Tatsunoko's actual stated grievances in the arbitration that the lawsuit spun off from were more to the tune of Tatsunoko thinking Harmony Gold was shorting them on royalties owed for the usage of Macross, Southern Cross, and MOSPEADA in the home video and streaming markets.  (Harmony Gold counterclaim being that they were actually allowed to deduct legal fees from the various brand protection lawsuits from royalties owed.)

[Einherjar]

Come on Tatsunoko, there a Bayformers style reboot a la Titan Comics in your future if you renew!

[tekering]

7 hours ago, Focslain said:

does the lose of HG licence mean they can't hold the trademarks and just hold our beloved franchise hostage indefinitely?

Incidentally, if Harmony Gold's Robotech license has prevented the release of other Macross properties internationally, how is it that AnimEigo and ADV Films were able to distribute the original SDFM?

[kajnrig]

5 minutes ago, tekering said:

Incidentally, if Harmony Gold's Robotech license has prevented the release of other Macross properties internationally, how is it that AnimEigo and ADV Films were able to distribute the original SDFM?

They struck deals with HG.

[technoblue]

^Yep.

Even the original 9-DVD set that AnimEigo released had HG's trademark label on the chipboard box.

Edited April 7, 2018 by technoblue

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Einherjar said:

Come on Tatsunoko, there a Bayformers style reboot a la Titan Comics in your future if you renew!

Does anyone else hear that noise?  The one that sounds like terrified screaming?

[dizman]

4 hours ago, renegadeleader1 said:

I don't have the exact number off hand, but I do know it's not a lot. It's basically the same as what the original deal was for without any adjustments for inflation. This is pretty much the real reason behind behind the HG Tatsunoko rift. Tatsunoko is basically given away the rights for peanuts and the new owners there aren't happy because they know they can get more just shopping it around.

Hmm that's kinda what I figured, HG can't be worth all that much. So if another interested party with deeper pockets decided to throw a bid in to Tatsunoko then HG would be screwed. I guess the only thing really stopping a Funimation or Viz type of company is lack of interest in Macross and the headaches of localizing and getting song rights. Maybe we could all stop buying valk toys for a year to save up and start our own company to buy the US distribution rights 

[Gerli]

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

At the end of the day, all they'd be left with animation-wise is Robotech 3000, the only 100% original work they had.  They might still be able to use the names they changed, the show's macguffin, and some of the setting details HG came up with themselves.

 

 

 

Can we adopt the Carbarrans?

 

[cjcastan]

This is good right?

 

won’t speed anything up but can’t hurt the 2021 cause 

[TheLoneWolf]

Don't have time to read the full order, but it's great news for Harebrained

[Einherjar]

1 hour ago, cjcastan said:

This is good right?

 

won’t speed anything up but can’t hurt the 2021 cause 

Someone may actually need a defibrillator on legs there.

[kajnrig]

1 hour ago, cjcastan said:

This is good right?

 

won’t speed anything up but can’t hurt the 2021 cause 

YOOOOOOOOOOOO

50 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

Don't have time to read the full order, but it's great news for Harebrained

"[Plaintiff HG and Defendant Harebrained] stipulate and agree that all of Plaintiff's claims against the Harebrained Defendants are dismissed with prejudice ... This stipulation does not affect Plaintiff's claim against the remaining defendants in this lawsuit."

[Chronocidal]

So the big question I have about Battletech then.  Does this set wider precedent that bans HG from trying to bring suit against any Battletech/MechWarrior-related product, or does this specifically only apply to this single case?  It sounds from the wording like this only applies to the Harebrained group, but leaves out Piranha Games.

Also.. realistically speaking, while it's nice seeing HG get slapped upside the head, I'm not sure if this will directly impact anything further down the road.

Assuming that Big West and Tatsunoko eventually bury the hatchet with regards to their distribution fiasco that started this mess in the first place, won't all of those original design rights wind up back at Big West, and require any Battletech/MechWarrior property to go through them for design licenses?  And would they even allow it?

 

[Focslain]

4 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

Assuming that Big West and Tatsunoko eventually bury the hatchet with regards to their distribution fiasco that started this mess in the first place, won't all of those original design rights wind up back at Big West, and require any Battletech/MechWarrior property to go through them for design licenses?  And would they even allow it?

 

I think it depends on if it's a blatent ripe off like the old battletech unseens or just an inspiration. Inspirations seem to be cool as I haven't heard or seen of anything to the extent that HG has been pulling in the past.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

So the big question I have about Battletech then.  Does this set wider precedent that bans HG from trying to bring suit against any Battletech/MechWarrior-related product, or does this specifically only apply to this single case?

No, this doesn't set any precedent.  This document is just a statement, for the court record, that the two parties named (Harmony Gold and Harebrained Schemes) have mutually agreed that HBS is not a party to this lawsuit anymore and that they won't become a party to it again based on the specific set of claims Harmony Gold enumerated in this specific lawsuit.

In short, it just says that HG and HBS agree HBS is off the hook for this very specific set of claims.

It wouldn't prevent Harmony Gold from suing HBS for something else, if they found something else to sue them for in a future or current BattleTech/MechWarrior release.

 

2 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Also.. realistically speaking, while it's nice seeing HG get slapped upside the head, I'm not sure if this will directly impact anything further down the road.

This is not a "slap upside the head" by any stretch of the imagination... for HG or anyone else.

It's more or less standard legal practice to name all parties that might be involved in the lawsuit, and then later dismiss any who prove not to be involved/liable.  That's what happened here.  HBS ended up a party to the lawsuit because they were a business partner of PGI and Catalyst's, and HG is now dismissing them... presumably because they were able to demonstrate that they weren't involved in the development of the offending designs.

It's great news for HBS, who no longer have to spend flipping great wodges of cash on lawyers and can get back to business.  It doesn't really mean anything for the other parties.

 

2 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Assuming that Big West and Tatsunoko eventually bury the hatchet with regards to their distribution fiasco that started this mess in the first place, won't all of those original design rights wind up back at Big West, and require any Battletech/MechWarrior property to go through them for design licenses?  And would they even allow it?

Depends how the hypothetical agreement between Big West and Tatsunoko is drawn up.  This issue with BattleTech/MechWarrior is principally to do with the exclusivity of the merchandising rights, and BattleTech/MechWarrior's unlicensed use of designs covered by those rights.  Unless Tatsunoko sold or licensed those rights to Big West, it'd be Tatsunoko's beef... unless the offending designs were in something marketed in Japan, then it'd be Big West's turn at bat.

[Chronocidal]

Thanks for the clarity on that, someone I'd been discussing this with took this decision to mean that HG was getting it's wrist slapped for trying to sue HBS over something that the judge thought deserved to be thrown out, and was overly hopeful that that had all kinds of implications for what designs could be used in Battletech/MechWarrior materials in the future.

I think there's some misinformation floating about that paints this as HG getting defeated in a way that will actual impact the franchises they've been holding hostage, but from what you're saying, this was just them agreeing that HBS isn't involved in the suit that HG is still filing against the other groups listed.

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Thanks for the clarity on that, someone I'd been discussing this with took this decision to mean that HG was getting it's wrist slapped for trying to sue HBS over something that the judge thought deserved to be thrown out, and was overly hopeful that that had all kinds of implications for what designs could be used in Battletech/MechWarrior materials in the future.

I think there's some misinformation floating about that paints this as HG getting defeated in a way that will actual impact the franchises they've been holding hostage, but from what you're saying, this was just them agreeing that HBS isn't involved in the suit that HG is still filing against the other groups listed.

Yeah, that kind of wishful thinking has been showing up increasingly often as new documents from the lawsuit become publicly available.  Even overused terms like "fake news" hardly seem strong enough for the kind of coverage that sites like Sarna give to nonevent documents like this, which come freighted with excited, heavily hyperbolic declarations that most any activity is a sign that the tyranny of Harmony Gold will soon be overthrown in court.  It's become so absurd that I'd be prepared to bet they'd try to spin the judge calling a ten minute recess because he needed to take a piss as a sign of an imminent ruling against HG that will free the Unseen.

The BattleTech/MechWarrior fanbase really ought to know better by now.  The owners of the franchise have tried to bring back Unseen designs like half a dozen times now, and every sodding time it ends the same way... Harmony Gold threatens to sue for violation of their exclusive license to the designs in the west, and BT/MW's owners either do the smart thing and back down, or stupidly take the issue before the courts and make fools of themselves before settling out of court to avoid an inevitable ruling against them.  It's like the legal version of a Looney Tunes Wile E. Coyote and Roadrunner short.  That the roadrunner wins is a foregone conclusion, the only question is how the coyote will hurt and humiliate himself in the attempt to challenge it.

A ruling in Catalyst/PGI's favor wouldn't materially change anything... it'd just mean that the new designs Harmony Gold alleges were based on Macross designs are different enough that they aren't judged to be derivative of the Macross designs, and would therefore be freely usable without violating the exclusivity of Harmony Gold's license agreement with Tatsunoko.  It's not gonna change anything WRT Harmony Gold's license, or the shenanigans they get up to with Macross trademarks or threatening to sue companies like Hasbro.

[Sildani]

Love how Weisman et. al. are termed “The Harebrained Defendants” in that order. 

[Knight26]

Back to the Macross License.  Does HG have right of first refusal with Tatsunoko, or does it become an open bid in 2021?  If it is the former, well we could be in the same boat we are now, if the latter, all BW or Bandai, or any other distributor need to do is give a better offer, which seems likely.

[cjcastan]

4 hours ago, Knight26 said:

Back to the Macross License.  Does HG have right of first refusal with Tatsunoko, or does it become an open bid in 2021?  If it is the former, well we could be in the same boat we are now, if the latter, all BW or Bandai, or any other distributor need to do is give a better offer, which seems likely.

I believe after arbitration. In 2021 Tats has the control to re-up.

 

its in the white highlighted text a few posts up on this page

 

2. Relief Granted in favor of Respondent
a. Claimant’s right to use the Programs for production and/or exploitation of new works expires on March 14, 2021 along with any extant sublicenses as all rights to the Programs revert back to Respondent at that time.
b. Upon expiration of the term of the Operative Agreements, the Claimant no longer has any right to use or exploit derivative works produced during the term, which contain portions of the Programs, as rights to the Programs revert back to Respondent at that time.
c. Claimant has no permanent, exclusive, and irrevocable copyright and trademark rights in the Programs as same shall belong to Respondent on expiration of the term in 2021;
d. Upon expiration of the term, Respondent shall have the right and option to disaffirm/cancel any existing licenses, assignments and/or other agreements extending beyond the term as may have been entered into by Claimant with others granting any rights in and to the Programs