Harmony Gold suing Tatsunoko

[Seto Kaiba]

On 9/16/2017 at 2:45 AM, SuperSenpai said:

So here's a question -- if HG loses the license and rights revert back to Tatsunoko, HG can no longer sell Robotech DVDs and  Blu Rays, nor can they license Robotech for streaming.  Tatsunoko could license the animation for various platforms -- but only the Japanese versions, not the Robotech dubs/edits, am I right?   Does that mean Robotech DVDs will skyrocket in value on the secondary market??

Oh yes, the Robotech DVDs will skyrocket all the way from "almost completely worthless" to "nearly worthless".  Remember, most Robotech fans already have three or four editions.

That's the beauty of the secondhand Robotech merch market, almost everything can be had for a fraction of the price it was new because the net direction of the fandom's size is negative.  You can get their RPG Tactics game for a fraction of what Kickstarter backers and retailers paid from people looking to get it out of their homes.

 

On 9/16/2017 at 7:39 PM, azrael said:

They could. But I wouldn't expect Tatsunoko to sell SDFM to Big West and/or Bandai without retaining something for themselves. As I mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if Tatsunoko (or the majority stake-holders) decided to reign in the IPs and repatriate their earnings. Not selling the rights is an option as much as renewing the rights with HG. 

Considering the one thing Tatsunoko covets most of all with respect to Macross is a share of the profits from the sequels, I'd expect they would want to hang onto the original TV series rights and offer to act as intermediary to release all of Macross worldwide for a percentage.

[renegadeleader1]

55 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 Considering the one thing Tatsunoko covets most of all with respect to Macross is a share of the profits from the sequels, I'd expect they would want to hang onto the original TV series rights and offer to act as intermediary to release all of Macross worldwide for a percentage.

Here's the thing. Big West doesn't need Tatsunoko or the original series to release the Macross sequels outside of Japan, and they already get profits from it's sale in Japan. The only thing preventing the sequels from coming over is HG's trademarks. If BW can get their own trademarks in once HG's are expired, voided, or are abandoned then Tatsunoko will have to come to them if they want to do anything with the original series international rights.

 

The only way Tatsunoko could negotiate from a position of strength is if they got a hold of the trademarks themselves and do what HG is doing.

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, renegadeleader1 said:

Here's the thing. Big West doesn't need Tatsunoko or the original series to release the Macross sequels outside of Japan, and they already get profits from it's sale in Japan. [...]

The only way Tatsunoko could negotiate from a position of strength is if they got a hold of the trademarks themselves and do what HG is doing.

Granted, but the point was that we know Tatsunoko badly wants a share of the profits from all of the Macross sequels... and we know they have a VERY effective means of blocking Big West from distributing Macross's sequels outside Japan.  Since US trademark law favors first use over actual ownership of the property, all Tatsunoko has to do is renew HG's license or shack up with another distributor and resume the trademark shenanigans.

If Tatsunoko was willing to go to court and appeal the decision against them multiple times in an effort to get a share of the Macross sequel profits, you can bet they wouldn't just let Big West go wild outside Japan.  They'll insist upon a piece of the action.

[cjcastan]

40 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Granted, but the point was that we know Tatsunoko badly wants a share of the profits from all of the Macross sequels... and we know they have a VERY effective means of blocking Big West from distributing Macross's sequels outside Japan.  Since US trademark law favors first use over actual ownership of the property, all Tatsunoko has to do is renew HG's license or shack up with another distributor and resume the trademark shenanigans.

If Tatsunoko was willing to go to court and appeal the decision against them multiple times in an effort to get a share of the Macross sequel profits, you can bet they wouldn't just let Big West go wild outside Japan.  They'll insist upon a piece of the action.

I thought I heard in the legal explanation, that in 2021 all HG trademarks would go to tats. But even if not, I imagine they could gain control of them after HG's ownership expire in 2022.

the scenario I see happening and am hopeful of is that one of the deeper pocket players (Netflix or Amazon) contracts with both Tats and BW to get the whole franchise free and clear.

the key is what happens to the trademarks in 2022, or who can control them.

[Dynaman]

5 minutes ago, cjcastan said:

I thought I heard in the legal explanation, that in 2021 all HG trademarks would go to tats. But even if not, I imagine they could gain control of them after HG's ownership expire in 2022.

 

No - the legal case for HG to own the trademarks is at best in limbo after they lose the rights, my guess is they will be able to keep the trademarks even though they lose the other rights.  In the US who had claimed them (trademark) first is a major factor.

[cjcastan]

10 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

No - the legal case for HG to own the trademarks is at best in limbo after they lose the rights, my guess is they will be able to keep the trademarks even though they lose the other rights.  In the US who had claimed them (trademark) first is a major factor.

https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20170830639

 

award 2c

Claimant = HG

Respondent = Tats

c. Claimant has no permanent, exclusive, and irrevocable copyright and trademark rights in the Programs as same shall belong to Respondent on expiration of the term in 2021;

 

i don't know how to read that other than TMs go to Tats on 2021

Edited September 18, 2017 by cjcastan

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, cjcastan said:

I thought I heard in the legal explanation, that in 2021 all HG trademarks would go to tats. But even if not, I imagine they could gain control of them after HG's ownership expire in 2022.

the scenario I see happening and am hopeful of is that one of the deeper pocket players (Netflix or Amazon) contracts with both Tats and BW to get the whole franchise free and clear.

the key is what happens to the trademarks in 2022, or who can control them.

That'd be an odd call, but not unheard-of... it probably depends on how the terms of the license are drawn up.  

 

 

45 minutes ago, cjcastan said:

https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20170830639

 

award 2c

Claimant = HG

Respondent = Tats

c. Claimant has no permanent, exclusive, and irrevocable copyright and trademark rights in the Programs as same shall belong to Respondent on expiration of the term in 2021;

 

i don't know how to read that other than TMs go to Tats on 2021

Yeah, that definitely makes it sound like Tatsunoko will gain ownership of the trademarks that HG has filed for should the license expire.

It certainly reinforces my point... even if Tatsunoko throws HG to the wolves like they deserve, they still have the means (at least in the short term) to insist Big West play on their terms outside Japan.

[cjcastan]

22 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That'd be an odd call, but not unheard-of... it probably depends on how the terms of the license are drawn up.  

 

 

Yeah, that definitely makes it sound like Tatsunoko will gain ownership of the trademarks that HG has filed for should the license expire.

It certainly reinforces my point... even if Tatsunoko throws HG to the wolves like they deserve, they still have the means (at least in the short term) to insist Big West play on their terms outside Japan.

True tats has the leverage, but I would hope they can see making money in working with big west and vice a versa. 

[azrael]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If Tatsunoko was willing to go to court and appeal the decision against them multiple times in an effort to get a share of the Macross sequel profits, you can bet they wouldn't just let Big West go wild outside Japan.  They'll insist upon a piece of the action.

I imagine that will be the case. While Tatsunoko has been getting a (almost) free ride from HG, I don't think they had much say in what HG has done with their property. And they've had much leverage in getting more money with HG. On the other side, Big West has enjoyed the lime-light of all the Macross sequels. I imagine Tatsunoko will want to change that among many things with how they license their properties.

[Marzan]

Aren't Japanese companies more likely to come to an understanding with each other? There's no money to be had for Tatsunoko if they don't come to an agreement with Big West anyway. It's the conundrum that HG finds itself in. You cannot get your hands on the shiny Delta's and Frontier's if you don't give Big West a fair deal that they can accept.

[Sir Galahad®]

Question, 

Since harmony gold holds the trademark that they filed for, why does it go back to tatsunoko? Isn't distribution license different from trademark? 

I mean anybody can trademark anything as long as no one else filed for it right, regardless of who owns the intellectual property.

So I can see that Tatsunoko cannot distribute the original series as well as long as HG holds on to the trademark.

Or I am wrong?

[TheLoneWolf]

3 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Question, 

Since harmony gold holds the trademark that they filed for, why does it go back to tatsunoko?

Because the arbitrator concluded that if Harmony Gold loses their rights to SDF Macross, then Harmony Gold should also lose the "Macross" trademark. Both companies agreed to be legally bound by the arbitrator's decision, so that's pretty much the end of it.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, TheLoneWolf said:

Both companies agreed to be legally bound by the arbitrator's decision, so that's pretty much the end of it.

And then Tatsunoko didn't pay the money the arbitrator granted to HG. That may hurt their case.

[cjcastan]

7 hours ago, JB0 said:

And then Tatsunoko didn't pay the money the arbitrator granted to HG. That may hurt their case.

Well the case has been arbitrated so the awards are what they are. Unless there's a clause in the original agreement that allows for additional litigation, you go to arbitration to avoid the court system and the decisions can be binding.

Tats does need to fork over the money but considering this was decided less than a month ago, I don't think non receipt at this point changes the awards most importantly the deal ending in 2021 and Tats receiving the trademarks 

[Seto Kaiba]

20 hours ago, Marzan said:

Aren't Japanese companies more likely to come to an understanding with each other? There's no money to be had for Tatsunoko if they don't come to an agreement with Big West anyway. It's the conundrum that HG finds itself in. You cannot get your hands on the shiny Delta's and Frontier's if you don't give Big West a fair deal that they can accept.

Well, sort of... Japanese business culture emphasizes politeness, which does not always take the form of a constructive politeness.  They'll just as likely politely listen to your view and nod along, then with equal politeness either refuse to proceed further or dismantle your position bit by bit at a later date or time in a carefully-worded rebuttal.

They can be very obstinate when they don't feel a decision is in their best interests... but, in my experience, they'll be obstinate with impeccable politeness and express their sympathies for the inconvenience.

[cjcastan]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, sort of... Japanese business culture emphasizes politeness, which does not always take the form of a constructive politeness.  They'll just as likely politely listen to your view and nod along, then with equal politeness either refuse to proceed further or dismantle your position bit by bit at a later date or time in a carefully-worded rebuttal.

They can be very obstinate when they don't feel a decision is in their best interests... but, in my experience, they'll be obstinate with impeccable politeness and express their sympathies for the inconvenience.

The biggest X factors IMO are going to be

1. will Tats feel that working with BW will be more profitable than re-upping with HG.

2. Will BW be willing to take less than 100% on the sequels since they will have to compensate Tats on the trademarks.

3. Or if BW wins back the TMs in Europe and other territories can they use that as precedent in a case to rip the TMs from Tats in the USA

 

Hopefully someone with deep pockets can make it worth both firms while to work together 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by cjcastan

[Seto Kaiba]

45 minutes ago, cjcastan said:

The biggest X factors IMO are going to be

1. will Tats feel that working with BW will be more profitable than re-upping with HG.

2. Will BW be willing to take less than 100% on the sequels since they will have to compensate Tats on the trademarks.

Big West is probably willing to settle for less than 100% of the profits, since anime distribution in the west is largely driven by local distributors even today.  The big nagging question is if Tatsunoko will be foolish enough to re-up Harmony Gold's license or not.  Relations on that front seem to be a bit sour now.

 

45 minutes ago, cjcastan said:

3. Or if BW wins back the TMs in Europe and other territories can they use that as precedent in a case to rip the TMs from Tats in the USA

The trademark proceedings in Europe aren't viable as precedent in the US, because trademark law isn't a universal right like copyright is under treaty... and US copyright law is written to favor a first use in market condition over actual ownership of the property.

 

 

45 minutes ago, cjcastan said:

Hopefully someone with deep pockets can make it worth both firms while to work together 

The one most likely to do that is Tatsunoko itself, amusingly... they very badly want a share of the profits from Macross's sequels.  So badly, in fact, that they not only went to court in a bid to get a cut, they appealed the ruling against them twice (with the appellate court affirming the previous ruling and the high court refusing to hear it).

I'm not sure if they just want to be a part of the Macross phenomenon because they feel that they helped create it, or what... but whatever it is, they were willing to spend a big chunk of change to try to get it and have made a point to show they're still invested in the franchise by trying to be represented at Macross events in even a little way, like sending flowers to the recent Macross anniversary concert.

[Hiriyu]

Just spitballing, but there's another possible scenario that I've wondered about. Given that HG is already established as a distributor in the US and has already been granted US trademarks, I'd guess that there may be a possibility that Tatsunoko could renegotiate rights with HG with the proviso that HG be bound to honor any potential distribution arrangement between SN/BW and Tatsunoko for distribution of the sequels. It wouldn't be the most positive possible outcome, or indeed most likely, but it would potentially give each of the companies presently involved a piece of the existing pie and an expansion of the pie for all involved (well, except for maybe HG).

Tatsunoko would likely have more favorable prospects by cutting HG out of distribution entirely, but then would have to come to some kind of distribution arrangements for America on its own. If SN/BW want to have an American distribution, they pretty much have to work with Tatsunoko, but they carry a pretty large bargaining chip in the form of the sequels. Of all of the companies, HG would seem to have the weakest position in a license shake-up.

Whatever happens it will be interesting to watch.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Hiriyu
correction

[Nightbat]

20 hours ago, cjcastan said:

Tats does need to fork over the money but considering this was decided less than a month ago, I don't think non receipt at this point changes the awards most importantly the deal ending in 2021 and Tats receiving the trademarks 

If the case was decided less than a month ago, and HG is already using legal pressure on Tatsunoko for the money, I'd think HG isn't is such a good financial position

[Major Focker]

that's not indicative of HG's finances, likely just prudent follow through by HG's legal team.

the arbitration ruling would most likely have specified payment deadlines. so if those lapsed, it's quite expected there will be a filing by the next day.

[cjcastan]

1 hour ago, Major Focker said:

that's not indicative of HG's finances, likely just prudent follow through by HG's legal team.

the arbitration ruling would most likely have specified payment deadlines. so if those lapsed, it's quite expected there will be a filing by the next day.

One thing is I don't think anyone actually knows if Tats paid yet or not. I was just responding to someone who is supposing that.

 

In other places, I have seen it said Tats needs to go back to HG because of their financial situation, this is probably internet supposition not based in fact.

the majority owner of Tats is Nippon TV. According to their most recent shareholder information -  

 

this is a major conglomerate whose media and content revenue is 374 billion yen or roughly 3.3 billion. I can't imagine if they and Takara (who together own about 70 percent of Tats) wanted this 800k to go away tomorrow they could. 

 

The more I delve into it, the more hopeful I am that 2021 will see a US release in some fashion of parts of the franchise we haven't seen here yet.

[kajnrig]

...is Tatsunoko not doing well financially? From all this talk it sounds like they are, but... it's Tatsunoko. They can't be having money problems.

[cjcastan]

36 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

...is Tatsunoko not doing well financially? From all this talk it sounds like they are, but... it's Tatsunoko. They can't be having money problems.

I don't know how Tats the subsidiary division of Nippon, takara, IG, and horipro is doing.

in other social media (Reddit, twitter, Facebook, other boards) there has been some supposition that Tats will have to re-up with HG because the $800+k would be too much for them to bear.

in doing the research though of all Tats situation, the 800k doesn't look like the biggest stumbling block.

2021 can't get here soon enough.

[azrael]

6 hours ago, Major Focker said:

that's not indicative of HG's finances, likely just prudent follow through by HG's legal team.

the arbitration ruling would most likely have specified payment deadlines. so if those lapsed, it's quite expected there will be a filing by the next day.

This is true. This is just diligence on HG's lawyers. Tatsunoko has yet to pay the arbitration costs. It doesn't appear as if there are any financial troubles on either side, Tatsunoko just doesn't want to fork over the cash. When a renewal comes up, HG would likely want to maintain a "sweetheart" deal at bargain prices but considering how long Tatsunoko let the deal go for, Tatsunoko likely wants more out of the deal in this day and age.

[JB0]

14 hours ago, cjcastan said:

One thing is I don't think anyone actually knows if Tats paid yet or not. I was just responding to someone who is supposing that.

Isn't that literally the entire basis of the current case, HG suing Tatsunoko for not paying them?

[cjcastan]

6 hours ago, JB0 said:

Isn't that literally the entire basis of the current case, HG suing Tatsunoko for not paying them?

You are correct, HG felt Tats owed them for legal fees and Tats wanted their rights more clearly defined hence the arbitration. I meant in terms of, has Tats paid yet on the recent arbitration decision that was handed down in August.

Sorry for being unclear.

[JB0]

Ah, right. Multiple bills in the air and it is all a matter of WHICH bills are paid and which are being argued over.

[kajnrig]

This seems like the most applicable thread to post this update. It's about the ongoing Robotech/Battletech lawsuit, not anything to do directly with the Tatsunoko case which has already been arbitrated, nor does it have anything to do directly with Big West.

tl;dr - Piranha Games has filed a motion to dismiss HG's case against them owing to the results of arbitration from the HG vs. Tatsunoko case.

1:30 for HG's litigation history.

4:05 for most recent update.

 

[JB0]

Popcorn, anyone?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, kajnrig said:

tl;dr - Piranha Games has filed a motion to dismiss HG's case against them owing to the results of arbitration from the HG vs. Tatsunoko case.

Eh... in all likelihood, it'll avail them nothing.  The arbitration didn't change anything with respect to Harmony Gold's license to the distribution and merchandising rights to SDF Macross.

IMO, it's likely an indicator that Catalyst, HBS, and Piranha are starting to realize that the chances of a ruling in their favor are slim at best and they're falling back on the same tactic FASA did in their lawsuit with HG in 1996:  file a bunch of separate motions for summary judgement or dismissal using every reason that comes to mind in the hopes that something will pass muster.

[505thAirborne]

46 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Popcorn, anyone?

I made a fresh batch! !

[RavenHawk]

On 11/23/2017 at 8:47 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... in all likelihood, it'll avail them nothing.  The arbitration didn't change anything with respect to Harmony Gold's license to the distribution and merchandising rights to SDF Macross.

IMO, it's likely an indicator that Catalyst, HBS, and Piranha are starting to realize that the chances of a ruling in their favor are slim at best and they're falling back on the same tactic FASA did in their lawsuit with HG in 1996:  file a bunch of separate motions for summary judgement or dismissal using every reason that comes to mind in the hopes that something will pass muster.

You pretty much ALWAYS file a motion for summary judgment, regardless of the strength of your case.

Plus, they're probably trying to preserve their rights for potential bases for appeal later.

[TehPW]

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=60546.450;topicseen#lastPost  Is this true? March 21, 2021, HG losses ALL of the various TM's they have involving RT?

[TheLoneWolf]

1 hour ago, TehPW said:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=60546.450;topicseen#lastPost  Is this true? March 21, 2021, HG losses ALL of the various TM's they have involving RT?

"Pending renewal" is the key phrase. I wouldn't count out Harmony Gold just yet. As azrael mentioned, if Apple and Samsung can continue doing business together, so can Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko.

[JB0]

22 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

"Pending renewal" is the key phrase. I wouldn't count out Harmony Gold just yet. As azrael mentioned, if Apple and Samsung can continue doing business together, so can Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko.

Yeah, but Apple is less dickish than HG and Samsung has more anti-trust concerns if they just refuse to do business with someone.