Harmony Gold suing Tatsunoko

[Seto Kaiba]

25 minutes ago, ~Homer~likeVF19A said:

Here is the news.

I have tried to find but there have no any the official announcement on Harmony Gold, Kawamori, Satelight or Tatsunoko Production.

Is this news truth??

Well... sort of.

This is phrased in a way that is practically guaranteed to mislead and it's from a source that's known for having a poor command of the facts, but there is a tiny nugget of truth at its core.

The reason you won't find any official announcements about this is that it's not news, we've known for a long time now.  It's also not really about copyrights, it's about the expiration date on Harmony Gold's license agreement with Tatsunoko Production and nothing more.  The license that Tatsunoko sold Harmony Gold has an expiration date in 2021, and Harmony Gold will lose the distribution and merchandising rights to the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series that it obtained via that license unless it is renewed.

This has no direct implications for Macross, really, since those rights will simply revert back to their owner Tatsunoko Production if the license is not renewed.  It would still take several years for HG's trademarks on the Macross name, logos, and key terms to expire, and those are the key obstacles for Macross's licensing outside of Japan.

 

(The Japanese companies have ALWAYS held the copyrights on Macross... Big West and Studio Nue on the IP, and Tatsunoko on the footage of the original series.)

Edited September 14, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[Gerli]

36 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

This has no direct implications for Macross, really, since those rights will simply revert back to their owner Tatsunoko Production if the license is not renewed.  It would still take several years for HG's trademarks on the Macross name, logos, and key terms to expire, and those are the key obstacles for Macross's licensing outside of Japan.

 

 

So... how many several years are we talking about?

[azrael]

*Looks at username on Tweet*. Oh. It's "that" user.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

10 minutes ago, Gerli said:

So... how many several years are we talking about?

Based on the renewals I can see in TESS, at least two years.

The trademark that's up for renewal first is 76385551, which would come eligible for renewal around mid-December 2021 (~9 months after the license expires) and would expire 26 December 2022.  On the others, we're looking at actual trademark expiration on 30 November 2023.  (Unless challenged in court on the basis that HG can no longer use the mark in commerce legally.)

[Gerli]

Thanks Seto.

Things are unfolding quickly, there is a thread on Reddit about the results of the Arbitrion of HG Vs tatsunoko.

https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/22233392/Harmony_Gold,_USA,_Inc_v_Tatsunoko_Production_Co,_Ltd

What a time to be alive!

Edited September 15, 2017 by Gerli

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Gerli said:

Thanks Seto.

Things are unfolding quickly, there is a thread on Reddit about the results of the Arbitrion of HG Vs tatsunoko.

https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/22233392/Harmony_Gold,_USA,_Inc_v_Tatsunoko_Production_Co,_Ltd

What a time to be alive!

Yeah, AnimeNewsNetwork and a few other sites have picked it up too, and attempted to quash the rumor that Harmony Gold lost the Macross license already.

[azrael]

Yah.

Harmony Gold's Macross, Mospeada, Southern Cross Licenses Still Expire in 2021

Thread MERGE!

[Gerli]

Gattai!

[seti88]

Urgh revisiting macross legal history making my brain hurt. Time for some sheryl nome loving LOL... as in OST!

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, azrael said:

Yah.

Harmony Gold's Macross, Mospeada, Southern Cross Licenses Still Expire in 2021

Thread MERGE!

But did you do the little dance first?

 

33 minutes ago, seti88 said:

Urgh revisiting macross legal history making my brain hurt. Time for some sheryl nome loving LOL... as in OST!

You think it's bad just having to witness it, imagine how frustrating it is to be "Macross answer guy" and have to explain it on a dozen different sites and groups.

I'd give years off my life for the bloody news websites to actually get the details completely correct just once... ANN opened their mouths to quash the rumor and made things WORSE.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[Gerli]

I found this quote on Reddit:

Quote

Keep in mind that "bad blood" was between an entirely different management. The former president of Tatsunoko, who HG had always done the previous deals with, has been gone since 2010 and Tatsunoko is owned by a different parent company. That's the reason why this case got brought up in the first place. The new owners weren't happy with the old deals

If true, it changes everything.

[davidwhangchoi]

so Robotech movie 2021?

[seti88]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

But did you do the little dance first?

 

You think it's bad just having to witness it, imagine how frustrating it is to be "Macross answer guy" and have to explain it on a dozen different sites and groups.

I'd give years off my life for the bloody news websites to actually get the details completely correct just once... ANN opened their mouths to quash the rumor and made things WORSE.

You are to macross what bill nye was to science  ur level in macross research is substantial to say the least...

on the bright side, its just a few more years till this drama has a chance to end... 

1 hour ago, davidwhangchoi said:

so Robotech movie 2021?

oops spoke too soon haha....

[Dynaman]

My legaleze is not what it should be - what does that court document above mean?  Case dismissed, dropped, ruled in one side's favor or another (but with no actual change in status).

[Roy Focker]

Why couldn't have been 2001 when I was a younger?

The 2021 date is going the make the movie a hard sale.   Even if you convince a studio that Robotech is going to be the next big thing you might only get to make one movie.   A studio is not going to invest a ton of money with the knowledge they might not be able to make a sequel.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

so Robotech movie 2021?

My secret insider sources tell me the Robotech movie is going to come out on February 32nd, 2021.  

 

1 hour ago, Dynaman said:

My legaleze is not what it should be - what does that court document above mean?  Case dismissed, dropped, ruled in one side's favor or another (but with no actual change in status).

So, the short version...

The above-linked page on PacerMonitor describes a petition, accompanying documentation, a couple requests to keep certain disclosed contract and settlement details secret, and the judge's final ruling on Harmony Gold's request for the California Central District Court to enforce the binding settlement from a previous legal dispute with Tatsunoko Production that was resolved in arbitration.  That prior settlement was about money owed to Harmony Gold as recompense for court costs and legal fees it incurred while pursuing legal action against various entities violating its (and Tatsunoko's) rights to the original Japanese shows.  HG requested to keep some bits of the contracts and settlements from publication in the court record where anyone could see it, some of which was granted and some wasn't (which is how we know what was in the previous settlement).

Simpler version... a not-so-long time ago in a galaxy pretty much right frigging here, Harmony Gold went to Tatsunoko and said "dude, you owe me money for protecting our sh*t outside Japan", and Tatsunoko said "No way, plus you still owe ME money".  Some legal posturing ensued and it ended up in arbitration instead of in court (WAY cheaper).  Tatsunoko couldn't prove Harmony Gold owed them money, so Tatsunoko got stuck with the bill for the previous legal matters AND the arbitration.  Skip forward a bit, they still haven't paid, so HG is asking the courts to please make them pay what they owe.

 

The bits about Harmony Gold's license expiring are pretty tangential to the whole thing... Harmony Gold apparently believed that the license was drawn up in such a way that, even if it expired, they had permission to continue using the stuff they'd created based on the original shows forever.  An examination of the license proved that was bullsh*t, and the courts told HG so. 

So now everyone knows Harmony Gold's license is basically a ticking time bomb.  If they lose their license from Tatsunoko, Robotech is effectively 100% dead because they will not only lose all their rights to Super Dimension Fortress Macross, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, they'll lose the ability to exploit all the material they've made based on those shows too... like Sentinels, Untold Story, Shadow Chronicles, Love Live Alive, Robotech Academy, and all the novelizations, comic books, video games, and so on.  Robotech 3000 will be all they've got left.  It'll kill all their merchandising too, so they'll be left with mountains of unsellable crappy merchandise they'll have to either surrender or destroy, and so will their licensees. 

(Palladium Books might go under if they lose the license before they deliver Wave 2 of Robotech RPG Tactics... they're in hock like half a mil to backers on that one due to undelivered rewards to Kickstarter backers, and if they lose their license in the dustup they won't be able to deliver those rewards and could potentially be forced to issue refunds.)

[davidwhangchoi]

38 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

My secret insider sources tell me the Robotech movie is going to come out on February 32nd, 2021.  

LOL

[Gerli]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

 

 

So now everyone knows Harmony Gold's license is basically a ticking time bomb.  If they lose their license from Tatsunoko, Robotech is effectively 100% dead because they will not only lose all their rights to Super Dimension Fortress Macross, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, they'll lose the ability to exploit all the material they've made based on those shows too... like Sentinels, Untold Story, Shadow Chronicles, Love Live Alive, Robotech Academy, and all the novelizations, comic books, video games, and so on.  Robotech 3000 will be all they've got left.  It'll kill all their merchandising too, so they'll be left with mountains of unsellable crappy merchandise they'll have to either surrender or destroy, and so will their licensees. 

Brutal....

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, Gerli said:

Brutal....

Totally... and that's why Harmony Gold is so determined to make a mountain of every molehill in the "news" about the proposed Robotech movie.  If they can get the ball rolling on that movie then they would have a potentially viable property to exploit and keep the brand alive with even if they lost all their rights obtained under license from Tatsunoko.

[azrael]

So, as I see it,

HG can do the following:
-Push the RT movie now and push hard. To that I say good luck. I'm still not watching it. Never really cared to watch it anyways.
-Let the license die in 2021. While this would force them to create their own IP and restrict them less, they would need to spend more brain cells making a better product. And one that would not infringe on copyright now (Not just trademarks).
-Renegotiate the license. This would be the best option, but the ball is in Tatsunoko's court for this one. Tatsunoko has options here (which I'll get to). At this point, HG would probably ask for the same or more rights. I'm not sure Tatsunoko would give up more rights (nor would it be in their best interest).
-Renegotiate for a per-show license. This would be cheaper and they could cherry pick, but it closes some options for them. But they would still get certain things to exploit. But the ball is still in Tatsunoko's court with this.

I see Tatsunoko's options as:
-Tatsunoko can ask (and should) ask for more money if a renewal comes up. If I were Tatsunoko and HG approached me to renew, I would factor in the amount Tatsunoko thinks HG owes them from all those litigations into a new license just to stick it to HG. Tatsunoko can play hardball and say that's the terms now. I'm sure Tatsunoko has run the numbers on how much they have gotten over the years from this license. Does the incoming royalties outweigh anything they could do on their own? I don't know and most of us don't work for Tatsunoko so that's a hard question to answer.
-Tatsunoko can decline the license renewal. They could go on their own and bring these 3 shows to online platforms and other outlets. They could sub-license to Bandai, get these shows subbed and bring them to limited runs on Youtube or any other platform. This would keep the profits "closer to home". They could look at how well the Gundam-model of having shows air in Japan then have them uploaded to Youtube after the initial airing goes. Our they could approach Crunchyroll or other outlets.
-Tats could only license certain shows. They could license Macross and Mospeda, but only because it would likely turn a profit. But I'm sure Tatsunoko would have new terms this time around. Not the huge blanket they did in the 1980s.

Or both sides agree to the same terms at modern pricing, but if Tatsunoko wants to reign in control of their IPs, I don't think this would happen.

[seti88]

I wonder what's  kawamori-san's recourse in all of this(as in come year 2021) , as he is pretty miffed abt RT as everyone knows..does he have any leverage so that there is no more linkage to RT?

Edited September 16, 2017 by seti88

[renegadeleader1]

2 hours ago, seti88 said:

I wonder what's  kawamori-san's recourse in all of this(as in come year 2021) , as he is pretty miffed abt RT as everyone knows..does he have any leverage so that there is no more linkage to RT?

As he has no official standing at Tatsunoko he has jack all to do with anything regarding the reverting of rights from HG back to them. Remember the international merchandising and distribution rights of the original series were given to Tatsunoko by Studio Nue in exchange for work on the series episodes and the DYRL film. This has never been disputed and was reaffirmed in the Japanese lawsuit from the early 2000s.

Edited September 16, 2017 by renegadeleader1

[Einherjar]

Remember when that fandom made ongoing jokes about Robotech's failures after the three shows were done over the years, a la The Sentinel's Curse?  Not funny when there could be real consequences for them in a few years, is it? 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Einherjar

[kajnrig]

Does Tatsunoko have international distribution rights to the various Macross sequels? If not, and if HG didn't have trademarks on Macross terminology, would Studio Nue have free reign to distribute and/or license distribution rights? Can't they do so already in countries where HG doesn't have these trademarks? I recall something about them registering trademarks across the globe...

[renegadeleader1]

25 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Does Tatsunoko have international distribution rights to the various Macross sequels? If not, and if HG didn't have trademarks on Macross terminology, would Studio Nue have free reign to distribute and/or license distribution rights? Can't they do so already in countries where HG doesn't have these trademarks? I recall something about them registering trademarks across the globe...

No to reiterate for the hundredth time Tatsunoko only has international distribution rights to the original series only.

Yes if HG didn't trademark the Macross terminology and kite symbol then Big West and studio Nue could in fact release the Macross franchise aside from the original series in the US.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2017 by renegadeleader1

[kajnrig]

32 minutes ago, renegadeleader1 said:

No to reiterate for the hundredth time Tatsunoko only has international distribution rights to the original series only.

Yes if HG didn't trademark the Macross terminology and kite symbol then Big West and studio Nue could in fact release the Macross franchise aside from the original series in the US.

Lol that's what I figured from the specificity of language, but I had to ask to make sure. Danke danke.

[SuperSenpai]

So here's a question -- if HG loses the license and rights revert back to Tatsunoko, HG can no longer sell Robotech DVDs and  Blu Rays, nor can they license Robotech for streaming.  Tatsunoko could license the animation for various platforms -- but only the Japanese versions, not the Robotech dubs/edits, am I right?   Does that mean Robotech DVDs will skyrocket in value on the secondary market??

[JB0]

2 hours ago, renegadeleader1 said:

No to reiterate for the hundredth time Tatsunoko only has international distribution rights to the original series only.

 

In fairness, for as long and as loud as HG was shouting about how their license was for exclusive worldwide rights to the entire franchise, it isn't surprising there is still confusion.

 

1 hour ago, SuperSenpai said:

So here's a question -- if HG loses the license and rights revert back to Tatsunoko, HG can no longer sell Robotech DVDs and  Blu Rays, nor can they license Robotech for streaming.  Tatsunoko could license the animation for various platforms -- but only the Japanese versions, not the Robotech dubs/edits, am I right?   Does that mean Robotech DVDs will skyrocket in value on the secondary market??

That is about the size of it, yes. HG will no longer have the content licenses needed to distribute Robotech, but they will retain copyright to their work. Robotech DVDs will almost certainly increase in value.

...

Of course, I would've expected the "unremastered" version with the original sound effects to have increased in value and I don't think that happened.

[D' only]

Someone (or anyone) should start talking (or express interest) to tatsunoko on acquiring the licenses now, so that Tatsunoko won't think HG is their only option. 

[cjcastan]

3 hours ago, D' only said:

Someone (or anyone) should start talking (or express interest) to tatsunoko on acquiring the licenses now, so that Tatsunoko won't think HG is their only option. 

I wonder if a crunchy or sony/Funi has the pockets and juice to wrangle both tats and big west to get the whole franchise over.

i imagine if amazon wants the whole macross franchise for anime strike, or Netflix wants it as a Netflix original ( a la little witch academia) they have the cash and influence to pull it off

[Nightbat]

The way I see this deal ending is that HG (which as of currently has their meal ticket owing them money) is in no position to bargain with Tatsunoko

Tatsunoko, come 2021, can take them to the cleaners in exchange for HG keeping the license, and I'm pretty sure Big West has an interest in that licence as well

(if not to try regaining total control over their series again)

So , even though strapped for cash, it's not like Tatsunoko has one horse to bet on, even if HG tries to sue them into bankruptcy

 

[mikeszekely]

15 hours ago, renegadeleader1 said:

No to reiterate for the hundredth time Tatsunoko only has international distribution rights to the original series only.

Yes if HG didn't trademark the Macross terminology and kite symbol then Big West and studio Nue could in fact release the Macross franchise aside from the original series in the US.

 

 

Maybe a dumb question, but considering that Macross has been fairly popular in the west despite HG's meddling, and given the success that Gundam has had, is there any reason why Big West doesn't just license Macross themselves, or even buy the rights back outright?

[Chronocidal]

I'd frankly be surprised if that's not exactly what they do once the existing contract expires.  If HG loses their license, and Big West wants to reel in the loose ends of their franchise, I don't think there's any way HG is going to be able to outbid them.  There's no way HG could pay Tatsunoko enough to turn down money coming from Bandai and Big West's deep pockets.

[azrael]

2 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

Maybe a dumb question, but considering that Macross has been fairly popular in the west despite HG's meddling, and given the success that Gundam has had, is there any reason why Big West doesn't just license Macross themselves, or even buy the rights back outright?

They could. But I wouldn't expect Tatsunoko to sell SDFM to Big West and/or Bandai without retaining something for themselves. As I mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if Tatsunoko (or the majority stake-holders) decided to reign in the IPs and repatriate their earnings. Not selling the rights is an option as much as renewing the rights with HG. 

[Heatwave]

I just want to be able to buy Macross F with subtitles for an affordable price in my region.

But it looks like I'll need to wait another five or so years before there's any actual news regarding that.