Harmony Gold suing Tatsunoko

[DewPoint]

I've watched the original Japanese version of it.  My curiosity got the better of me.  I've not tried to see what Robotech has done to that.  It really wants to be Flashback 2021, but it is clearly not.  I didn't care for it for whatever reason. 

[Seto Kaiba]

18 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

AKA being stunningly and embarrassingly full of crap. If HG could make money on that, they'd have no need of RT.

Come to think of it... them "promoting" RT was exactly that all along, right?

So was the tax avoidance scheme that Frank Agrama got convicted of... selling the rights to shows to shell companies he and his partners owned in tax havens at a huge markup, writing it off as a loss, and pocketing the proceeds.

 

5 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Don't forget that Love Live Alive reuse that came out.  Or probably better if you do.  I've not even tried to watch it and from the amount of mentions it gets (none that I am aware of) nobody else has either.

Eh... almost nobody really counts that as a new production, because all they really did was dub over the original MOSPEADA: Love Live Alive with a minute or two of new animation and then market it as a glorified extra features disc with a re-release of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

 

4 hours ago, DewPoint said:

I've watched the original Japanese version of it.  My curiosity got the better of me.  I've not tried to see what Robotech has done to that.  It really wants to be Flashback 2021, but it is clearly not.  I didn't care for it for whatever reason. 

At this juncture, I'd like to point out that MOSPEADA: Love Live Alive predates Macross: Flash Back 2012 by two years.

Love Live Alive came out in 1985.  Flash Back 2012 came out in 1987.

So it's not that Love Live Alive wants to be Flash Back 2012... Flash Back 2012 was Love Live Alive: but Better.

[Dynaman]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

 

Eh... almost nobody really counts that as a new production, because all they really did was dub over the original MOSPEADA: Love Live Alive with a minute or two of new animation and then market it as a glorified extra features disc with a re-release of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

 

But this is RT we are talking about...

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Dynaman said:

But this is RT we are talking about...

Yeah, but even they mainly marketed it mostly as a glorified DVD extra feature... entertainingly as "new" and "never before seen" for something that'd been fansubbed on YouTube for like fifteen years by that point.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[Gerli]

Not sure if this is the best place to ask so... there are a lot of news regarding BigWest droping the arbitration to the WIPO because they want to discuss with HG... Can we make a thread to discuss that?

@azrael

Edited March 3, 2021 by Gerli

[no3Ljm]

7 minutes ago, Gerli said:

Not sure if this is the best place to ask so... there are a lot of news regarding BigWest droping the arbitration to the WIPO because they want to discuss with HG... Can we make a thread to discuss that?

@azrael

I don't know if this thread below is the good place to discuss it. Click to jump.

 

[Einherjar]

What was the date when the Macross license was supposed to expire prior to to HG’s announcement that they supposedly renewed it?  I remember it was in 2021.

[pengbuzz]

Let's face it: at this rate, either the Second Coming or the Sun going into its' Red Giant phase  (take your pick) will come before HG ever gives up its' rights concerning Macross. Those people are just that greedy and delusional.

Edited March 3, 2021 by pengbuzz

[crackpot]

16 hours ago, Gerli said:

Not sure if this is the best place to ask so... there are a lot of news regarding BigWest droping the arbitration to the WIPO because they want to discuss with HG... Can we make a thread to discuss that?

@azrael

Is this confirmed news?

[Gerli]

7 minutes ago, crackpot said:

Is this confirmed news?

Yes, the documents are legit.

The FB user Teddy Gorospe shared the PDF's

https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/016790421

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13ptC8cd0mXs_COleoyhKMZlqfhBu2PKq

They are in Italian, but a lot of translations are now posted on Facebook

This one is from Teddy Gorospe

Quote

"Joint request for suspension of the Appeal procedure
We hereby inform you that both parties are not interested in the mediation process at the moment as they are negotiating for an amicable conclusion of the process.
In order to be able to continue the negotiations, we ask for the suspension of the appeal procedure no. R0006 / 2020-2.
Best regards.
D.ssa Elisa Tricerri
c/c Studio Tora S.p.A.
per Kabushiki Kaisha Bigwest
(Also TRADING AS BIGWEST Co., Ltd.)
Avv. Angelica Lodigiani
c/c Baarzano & Zanardo Roma S.p.A.
per Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Gerli

[Gerli]

40 minutes ago, Einherjar said:

What was the date when the Macross license was supposed to expire prior to to HG’s announcement that they supposedly renewed it?  I remember it was in 2021.

March 2021

[Einherjar]

4 minutes ago, Gerli said:

March 2021

So what is the new date after HG’s announcement?

[Seto Kaiba]

21 minutes ago, Einherjar said:

What was the date when the Macross license was supposed to expire prior to to HG’s announcement that they supposedly renewed it?  I remember it was in 2021.

14 March 2021... approximately eleven days hence.

 

8 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Let's face it: at this rate, either the Second Coming or the Sun going into its' Red Giant phase  (take your pick) will come before HG ever gives up its' rights concerning Macross. Those people are just that greedy and delusional.

In all fairness, there is a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that suggests that senior management at Harmony Gold actually has a pretty realistic view of Robotech's standing in the industry and its (negligible) future prospects.  They won't even fund new Robotech development anymore.

They seem to be playing the long game in the hopes that they can either sell their stake in Robotech to a Hollywood studio for a king's ransom or at least frustrate Big West into paying them royalties for use of their trademarks in the US.

 

Just now, Gerli said:

Yes, the documents are legit.

Link(s)?

 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, Einherjar said:

So what is the new date after HG’s announcement?

Unspecified.  Neither Harmony Gold nor Tatsunoko has commented on the duration of their license extension.

[crackpot]

Honestly, I'd just like for it pried away from HG at this point rather than for them to get something out of this negotiation. 

[vladykins]

1 minute ago, Einherjar said:

So what is the new date after HG’s announcement?

Last I saw was "extended for the foreseeable future".

From the looks, I'm guessing HG will drop the appeal and BW will allow them to purchase DYRL distribution rights and in return drop fighting distribution of the rest of Macross properties (at least outside the US). US will probably continue to be a mess unless they come to an agreement as well. HG essentially lost the battle in China, they were appealing in the EU, so I don't seem them dropping the appeal unless they were absolutely certain they would lose or if they were sure they got something out of it.

[Einherjar]

I may have said this before, but why should have people taken the license renewal announcement seriously when reps for the company have a bad reputation for saying outrageous things about the franchise over the years?  And to top it off, being so hush hush about the details to the point that you have to just trust them despite their past conduct?  After Remix jumped the shark, I think a lot of people out there got trolled just like the other times.

[Gerli]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

 

Link(s)?

 

I edited my post with the link to the WIPO page and the PDF's in Google Drive 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, vladykins said:

From the looks, I'm guessing HG will drop the appeal and BW will allow them to purchase DYRL distribution rights [...]

Very unlikely, given Big West's past reactions to Harmony Gold's attempts to increase their hold on Macross.

 

1 hour ago, vladykins said:

US will probably continue to be a mess unless they come to an agreement as well. HG essentially lost the battle in China, they were appealing in the EU, so I don't seem them dropping the appeal unless they were absolutely certain they would lose or if they were sure they got something out of it.

The US will continue to be a mess because Big West doesn't have grounds to dispute the trademarks due to differences in trademark law.

HG's appeal to the EU finding looks to be purely pro forma... they filed an appeal because you're supposed to exhaust the appeals process before giving up, not because they expect the result to actually change.

What I suspect this is, is Harmony Gold playing for a conclusion to their long game.  HG has little-to-no chance of saving anything on the appeal, so they're going to either attempt to let Big West buy out their Macross license and trademarks for a king's ransom and abandon Robotech, try to force a distribution agreement for the rest of Macross that would let them collect royalties on it in the US in exchange for abandoning their claims elsewhere and abandon Robotech, or attempt to push for a "we'll let you distribute Macross in the US provided you let Robotech continue to be a thing in markets where you took the trademark back".  

Given that HG has shown no real inclination to maintain the Robotech brand, I suspect HG is looking for an out that comes with a big payday.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Einherjar said:

I may have said this before, but why should have people taken the license renewal announcement seriously when reps for the company have a bad reputation for saying outrageous things about the franchise over the years?  And to top it off, being so hush hush about the details to the point that you have to just trust them despite their past conduct?  After Remix jumped the shark, I think a lot of people out there got trolled just like the other times.

Granted, anything from Harmony Gold should be taken with a a small sea's worth of salt.

There's a world of difference between the risks involved in, say, lying to fans about whether or not a particular project is still under active development and claiming to have rights under contract that you don't actually have.  Since Robotech has no investors, there are no real consequences for making false statements about the status of productions because there are no securities involved.  Lying about the status of contracts or contract negotiations?  THAT can get you sued, especially if you claim to hold exclusive rights that belong to someone else.  

When it comes to their legal difficulties, Harmony Gold has mostly been reasonably accurate in what they say publicly.  They do, however, tend to use deliberately unclear language in their announcements to disguise any details they might consider disadvantageous.  Like the largely unqualified dismissal of the Big West v. Tatsunoko copyright review that they unwittingly started by stating flatly that it was strictly a Japanese matter and didn't affect their rights.  (Which was true, but calculated to give fans the false impression that HG was free and clear to use Macross however it liked.)  Or when they insisted on describing having acquired the merchandising rights to DYRL? to keep VF-1 toys out of the west as being able to "release [DYRL?] as a product", which gave fans the false impression they had the distribution rights too.

That HG publicly stated in an official press release that they had renewed their license means they almost certainly have done so.

That negotiations went on as long as they did and that they kept mum about it for so long suggests things didn't go well, it probably cost them some significant concessions (like abandoning the money they were owed from arbitration), and it potentially wasn't for as long as they'd hoped either.

[vladykins]

23 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Very unlikely, given Big West's past reactions to Harmony Gold's attempts to increase their hold on Macross.

You would think that, but BW is signing on to the ending of arbitration and the appeal, so they seem to be going along with whatever game HG is running.

[Einherjar]

Weird that this is happening with 3/14/2021 coming up.  Just saying.

[Gerli]

4 minutes ago, Einherjar said:

Weird that this is happening with 3/14/2021 coming up.  Just saying.

Indeed... first the "leak" about the Robotech GBA Game Remake for the Switch, now this....

[Seto Kaiba]

52 minutes ago, vladykins said:

You would think that, but BW is signing on to the ending of arbitration and the appeal, so they seem to be going along with whatever game HG is running.

They have Harmony Gold over a barrel... this is not a situation where HG is going to increase its hold over Macross.  

It's far more likely that this is Harmony Gold seeing a golden opportunity to offload the a non-performing asset like Robotech on an interested buyer for a princely sum, or offering a sweetheart deal in which Robotech gets to continue limping towards oblivion at its own pace in exchange for getting out of Macross's way.

 

19 minutes ago, Einherjar said:

Weird that this is happening with 3/14/2021 coming up.  Just saying.

It's probably a coincidence.

Robotech has been on the ropes for quite a while now.  With Big West applying pressure on them abroad, it was only a matter of time before Harmony Gold approached the owners of the Macross franchise to attempt to either save or sell the Robotech brand.

 

13 minutes ago, Gerli said:

Indeed... first the "leak" about the Robotech GBA Game Remake for the Switch, now this....

"Remastering" a critically-panned flop of a game that was ranked by reviewers as one of the Most Disappointing games for its console was a bizarre move by any standard of measure.

[crackpot]

9 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They have Harmony Gold over a barrel... this is not a situation where HG is going to increase its hold over Macross.  

It's far more likely that this is Harmony Gold seeing a golden opportunity to offload the a non-performing asset like Robotech on an interested buyer for a princely sum, or offering a sweetheart deal in which Robotech gets to continue limping towards oblivion at its own pace in exchange for getting out of Macross's way.

I hope they just sell it. I wouldn't want imported Macross merch to be rebranded as Robotech. 

[vladykins]

6 minutes ago, crackpot said:

I hope they just sell it. I wouldn't want imported Macross merch to be rebranded as Robotech. 

HG is already branding a lot of their stuff Macross, so that wouldn't likely be a problem.

[Einherjar]

19 minutes ago, vladykins said:

HG is already branding a lot of their stuff Macross, so that wouldn't likely be a problem.

Robotech Remix = Macross 7

You know the profile pic I’m currently using?  That’s not Macross fan art.

[vladykins]

Worse- Robotech Remix appears to be trying to rationalize all of the Robotech canon and non-canon as well as Macross sequels- including even working Robotech 3000 into it. So it is taking it to an even more cheeseball level.

[Seto Kaiba]

52 minutes ago, vladykins said:

HG is already branding a lot of their stuff Macross, so that wouldn't likely be a problem.

Almost all of it, really.

The Macross logo is now more prominent than the Robotech one on most of their merchandise.

 

31 minutes ago, Einherjar said:

Robotech Remix = Macross 7

You know the profile pic I’m currently using?  That’s not Macross fan art.

26 minutes ago, vladykins said:

Worse- Robotech Remix appears to be trying to rationalize all of the Robotech canon and non-canon as well as Macross sequels- including even working Robotech 3000 into it. So it is taking it to an even more cheeseball level.

More a hackneyed attempt to Macross-ize Southern Cross to avoid using the wildly unpopular Southern Cross design works... resulting in something that looks like a really awful Macross fanfic.

[Rhubarbarian]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Macross logo is now more prominent than the Robotech one on most of their merchandise.

Every time I went to Comic-con the last few years (not 2020, obviously), I'd get a bunch of friends texting me that they had Macross merch in the exhibit hall. I'd have to keep explaining that no, despite the logo, it was Robotech merch and I wasn't going to give HG any money. It helps that there's rarely any HG-branded stuff that isn't terrible.

I don't know how much of it is that the Macross brand is finally starting to outpace the RT brand over here, or that HG's stunts are more widely known and the Robotech brand is more toxic than it used to be. Maybe a bit of both.

Random aside: a show I worked on once had its premiere party at the Harmony Gold Theater.

[Seto Kaiba]

Can I just briefly say I love your screenname, @Rhubarbarian?

 

6 minutes ago, Rhubarbarian said:

I don't know how much of it is that the Macross brand is finally starting to outpace the RT brand over here, or that HG's stunts are more widely known and the Robotech brand is more toxic than it used to be. Maybe a bit of both.

All told, I think the main reason that Harmony Gold has started double-branding a lot of its merchandise and making the Macross logo increasingly prominent is because there just aren't enough Robotech fans left to sustain their merchandise lines otherwise.  They're still trying to offload limited edition toys that were made over a decade ago, and they're not foolish enough to think the same few hundred fans are going to repeatedly spend thousands of dollars on gaudy, overpriced paperweights Kidslogic was making without winding up in trouble with the missus.  They're trying to improve their sales by introducing a low-cost alternative to the admittedly expensive and difficult-to-obtain Macross toys from the bigger outfits like Bandai or Arcadia.

[JB0]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

"Remastering" a critically-panned flop of a game that was ranked by reviewers as one of the Most Disappointing games for its console was a bizarre move by any standard of measure.

I note that, while the game was pretty blah, "most disappointing" and "worst" aren't the same thing.

But still, it was a poor clone of the console DYRL game, and they shoulda ported Battlecry to the Switch.

[jenius]

45 minutes ago, JB0 said:

I note that, while the game was pretty blah, "most disappointing" and "worst" aren't the same thing.

But still, it was a poor clone of the console DYRL game, and they shoulda ported Battlecry to the Switch.

Again, I would also point out that HG had nothing to do with making a video game or releasing it at any point any where. HG doesn't make anything... really. 

[JB0]

Just now, jenius said:

Again, I would also point out that HG had nothing to do with making a video game or releasing it at any point any where. HG doesn't make anything... really. 

They make licensing papers.

 

But point taken. They shoulda paid someone to port Battlecry instead of paying someone to port... Robotech: The Macross Saga, I guess was the title. 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, JB0 said:

They make licensing papers.

I'm reliably informed they mainly use a legal document preparation service for that kind of thing.

[jenius]

29 minutes ago, JB0 said:

They make licensing papers.

 

But point taken. They shoulda paid someone to port Battlecry instead of paying someone to port... Robotech: The Macross Saga, I guess was the title. 

Even that implies too much involvement. They didn't pay anyone anything. They will make some sliver of profits but it's not like they proposed the game maker work on this project. I bet the rights for the games have been maintained but beyond that, they probably only receive emails about it.. they're not actively doing anything. They get notified so they can help hype things (and thus earn their nickels) but that's about it.