Harmony Gold suing Tatsunoko

[Chronocidal]

Thank you, that's precisely the part I've been missing in this.  I knew Tatsunoko never had the power to give HG all the things HG claimed it licensed from them, but my understanding of the cases in the 2000s was sketchy at best.  I'll go check that old post out now.

 

[TehPW]

41 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

Leonard French does a pretty good job at summarizing the issues, but he made a few factual mistakes. According to him, Tatsunoko Production "was the original creator of...the original works that lead to Robotech, which were Macross..." and licensed/lost out certain rights to Big West and Harmony Gold. However, this is a gross inaccuracy in regards to The Super Dimension Fortress Macross. In reality, Studio Nue created SDF Macross, with Big West as Studio Nue's primary sponsor. To reiterate, the staff members of Studio Nue planned, designed, wrote, scripted, and directed SDF Macross. This is no secret, just look at the closing credits of SDF Macross and it's all there. Tatsunoko had no creative input over SDF Macross, so crediting them as the show's creator is wrong. All Tatsunoko did was supply the animators to animate roughly half of the series. And even then, Tatsunoko didn't use their own animators, instead farming out the work to their subsidiaries, such as the Korean studio Star Pro. Again, all of this information is in the show's credits sequences.

So how did Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold acquire certain, limited rights to SDF Macross? If you didn't read my old post here, I'll briefly summarize it. Since Big West didn't have the money to pay for Tatsunoko's animators, they gave Tatsunoko a) the right to distribute the show outside of Japan, b) the right the merchandize the show outside of Japan, and c) a portion of the show's local (Japan) merchandising sales. Tatsunoko later licensed a) and b) to Harmony Gold. French appears to be under the impression that these rights were licensed or won by Tatsunoko in court, when in fact, Studio Nue/Big West outright gave these rights to Tatsunoko in 1982. The Japanese court cases from the early 2000's reinforced these three rights, and in addition, gave Tatsunoko the television broadcast rights to SDF Macross in Japan. Obviously, that latter has nothing to do with the rest of the world. And, as we all know, the Japanese courts correctly ruled that Studio Nue and Big West never intended to give Tatsunoko the rights to the designs and story of SDF Macross as payment for Tatsunoko's animators' work.

To French's credit, Harmony Gold's US court filing routinely omit Studio Nue and Big West's contributions to SDF Macross, so it's no surprise that he wasn't aware of their ownership rights. And as he readily admits, it's an already complicated situation. Unfortunately, since French is an attorney, his statements regarding Tatsunoko as the "creator" of SDF Macross will now probably be viewed as canon by the US fandom and cited as such going forward.

uh.... can someone imform him of this correction. If he's gonna be the face of my online Lawyer for this subject, he better be told of his errors (out of respect)

Edited August 23, 2017 by TehPW

[Einherjar]

3 minutes ago, TehPW said:

uh.... can someone imform him of this correction. If he's gonna be the face of my online Lawyer for this subject, he better be told of his errors (out of respect)

I think he only cares because of the Battletech angle.

[Sir Galahad®]

Voltron had it's reboot, Thundercats had it's reboot, even He-Man. We have had a lot of 80's animation reboots but if Harmony Gold really has all the rights to the Macross IP they should have done it already, I mean they could have asked Tatsunoko for funding if that were the case. But maybe they actually know they can get sued if they try to make one. Or maybe they attempted to and Tatsunoko or any other company would not sponsor it.

[azrael]

2 hours ago, TheLoneWolf said:

Leonard French does a pretty good job at summarizing the issues, but he made a few factual mistakes. ..

To French's credit, Harmony Gold's US court filing routinely omit Studio Nue and Big West's contributions to SDF Macross, so it's no surprise that he wasn't aware of their ownership rights. And as he readily admits, it's an already complicated situation. Unfortunately, since French is an attorney, his statements regarding Tatsunoko as the "creator" of SDF Macross will now probably be viewed as canon by the US fandom and cited as such going forward.

To be fair, HG doesn't have to mention BW's involvement that much as that would likely add fuel to Tatsunoko's fire. This filing relates more to the arbitration with a healthy dose of backstory to fill in the gaps of why HG is suing Tatsunoko (Thanks for all the juicy bits of info, HG). Does this sour the relationship between Tatsunoko and HG? Dunno. Depends. And 2021 is still a ways to go. Will Tatsunoko file their brief with the court? Dunno. We'll see. Did HG pay their share (if any) of the arbitration costs? If so, how much? Did Tatsunoko see that as repayment for defending their claim against Big West? Hence, in Tatsunoko's eyes, HG hasn't paid their share of the arbitration costs (legal fees, etc), if any. Has HG shared revenue from RT sales with Tatsunoko to compensate them for exploiting the license? If Tatsunoko can show they paid HG the costs of the arbitration and any other amount they owe HG, then that pulls the rug out from under HG's feet. Now, Tatsunoko could pay the fees, then come 2021, re-negotiate a licensing deal which favors them or they would end the current licensing deal. If we want to be petty.

[azrael]

50 minutes ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Voltron had it's reboot, Thundercats had it's reboot, even He-Man. We have had a lot of 80's animation reboots but if Harmony Gold really has all the rights to the Macross IP they should have done it already, I mean they could have asked Tatsunoko for funding if that were the case. But maybe they actually know they can get sued if they try to make one. Or maybe they attempted to and Tatsunoko or any other company would not sponsor it.

There is nothing stopping them from making a "Robotech" reboot. One free of Tatsunoko-owned properties.

[M'Kyuun]

'Preciate the elucidation, Azrael. I think it's safe to say, we all hope that HG's  lawsuit will indeed sour their relationship, and that their precious Macross license will be denied. It'd be pretty sweet if Bandai jumped on that opportunity to market Macross in the West.  It's too long coming.  Keep biting the hand that feeds you, HG!

[Brand]

What gets at me is that, while yes, Tatsunoko and therefore HG have the merchandising rights to Macross, they only have the rights to do so for Super Dimension Fortress Macross ONLY; literally the rest of the franchise was specifically barred from their control since Tatsunoko only had a hand in animating the original series. So HG should literally have zero authority to have been blocking or objecting to the marketing of any Macross-related merch outside of Japan aside from the original Valkyries, Destroids, and the like from the first series (and Southern Cross and Mospeada). Everything from Macross Plus on should have been freely available in the U.S. with not one cent or question of permission due to HG.

 

That's all based entirely on my completely casual, amateur, nonattorney understanding of the matter, I could be entirely wrong but even as TheLoneWolf pointed out, BW/Nue own the Macross franchise and its characters entirely, aside from the animation and merchandising rights to the original series only. So anything aside from the original series' designs should have been fair game.

 

(Lot of emphasis on should in this post, sadly.)

[505thAirborne]

5 hours ago, akt_m said:

If someone from HG really had the skills to do it, they would've already done.

Hence my sarcastic post, 30+ years have gone by and they've nothing but attempt to rehash someone else's ideas. 

Only because I saw his name on the back of my Alpha poseable box years ago I saw the name of guy I went High School with, he had skills back then but looks like they've only been wasted at HG though, yet again this sums up HG and why I do hope any licensing they have to Macross goes the way of the Dodo bird. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by 505thAirborne

[Sir Galahad®]

16 minutes ago, Brand said:

What gets at me is that, while yes, Tatsunoko and therefore HG have the merchandising rights to Macross, they only have the rights to do so for Super Dimension Fortress Macross ONLY; literally the rest of the franchise was specifically barred from their control since Tatsunoko only had a hand in animating the original series. So HG should literally have zero authority to have been blocking or objecting to the marketing of any Macross-related merch outside of Japan aside from the original Valkyries, Destroids, and the like from the first series (and Southern Cross and Mospeada). Everything from Macross Plus on should have been freely available in the U.S. with not one cent or question of permission due to HG.

 

That's all based entirely on my completely casual, amateur, nonattorney understanding of the matter, I could be entirely wrong but even as TheLoneWolf pointed out, BW/Nue own the Macross franchise and its characters entirely, aside from the animation and merchandising rights to the original series only. So anything aside from the original series' designs should have been fair game.

 

(Lot of emphasis on should in this post, sadly.)

 

Harmony Gold Trademarked the name "Macross" in the US other terms like U.N. Spacy, the Logo. So unless we remove the word "Macross" from all animation, as well as the other terms that they trademarked, they could still block it, AFAIK.

[azrael]

44 minutes ago, M'Kyuun said:

I think it's safe to say, we all hope that HG's  lawsuit will indeed sour their relationship, and that their precious Macross license will be denied. It'd be pretty sweet if Bandai jumped on that opportunity to market Macross in the West.  It's too long coming.  Keep biting the hand that feeds you, HG!

And god knows how long Apple and Samsung have been throwing litigation at each other, yet Apple still goes back to Samsung because Samsung has the built-up manufacturing capabilities that Apple needs. The kicker will come if Tatsunoko decides not to renew Mospeada or Southern Cross. Those 2 shows are free from any legal issues.

[SuperHobo]

Reading this thread and the older posts about what HG actually has the rights to really puts things into perspective. If only they never trade marked Macross or UN Spacy in the US we might have blu ray copies with English subs from II onwards to delta.  Thank you for the information guys. I always wanted some clarification on HG, tatsunoko and Big West. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by SuperHobo
spelling

[ScrambledValkyrie]

4 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

 

Harmony Gold Trademarked the name "Macross" in the US other terms like U.N. Spacy, the Logo. So unless we remove the word "Macross" from all animation, as well as the other terms that they trademarked, they could still block it, AFAIK.

Wow, I didn't know that they actually trademarked Macross for themselves, including the logo? I always thought it was just licensed to them. That's disappointing, but it look like they jumped on the opportunity when Big West abandoned it. Does that mean that BW actually owned the Macross trademark in thr US at one point?

IP sure can get messy when you have multiple countries and legal systems involved...

[HardlyNever]

7 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

 

Harmony Gold Trademarked the name "Macross" in the US other terms like U.N. Spacy, the Logo. So unless we remove the word "Macross" from all animation, as well as the other terms that they trademarked, they could still block it, AFAIK.

 

Trademarking something that you don't have much of a case for actually holding can be challenged in court.  I mean, companies do this all the time, it's license (or patent) trolling/squatting. Sometimes the trolls/squaters win, sometimes the other side does.  

I think the biggest issue is that the entities that have a much more legitimate claim on those IPs (specifically Big West and Studio Nue), have not challenged HG in Western courts, at least not to the extent that they need to.  They seem to have very little interest in Macross outside of Japan, so when they hit a license troll like HG, they would rather just not deal with it.  

Maybe that will change in 2021, when BW wouldn't have to deal with HG anymore (hypothetically).

[Sergorn]

15 minutes ago, HardlyNever said:

They seem to have very little interest in Macross outside of Japan, so when they hit a license troll like HG, they would rather just not deal with it.  

As I've mentionned earlier in the thread, they have actually trademarked Macross in Europe just two month ago, have trademarked  "Delta Macross" for South-East asia countries and Europe in December 2016, and Macross in South-East Asia at the same date. At the same time, attempts from Harmony Gold to do the same over the last year have all been blocked and disputed. Feel free to feel it's irrelevant because it's Europe and SE Asia, but something IS happening here guys.

-Sergorn

[Einherjar]

I suggest more people look at the Titain Comics Robotech reboot thread in this part of the forum.  It's becoming more and more prophetic about the franchise's future as time goes by.

[Seto Kaiba]

33 minutes ago, HardlyNever said:

Trademarking something that you don't have much of a case for actually holding can be challenged in court.  I mean, companies do this all the time, it's license (or patent) trolling/squatting. Sometimes the trolls/squaters win, sometimes the other side does.  

Unfortunately, US trademark law is written in such a way that it would favor Harmony Gold in any dispute over the ownership of those trademarks, being that they were the first ones to use all the trademarked terms and logos in US markets even though they do not own the show those terms and logos came from.

[SuperHobo]

11 hours ago, Sergorn said:

As I've mentionned earlier in the thread, they have actually trademarked Macross in Europe just two month ago, have trademarked  "Delta Macross" for South-East asia countries and Europe in December 2016, and Macross in South-East Asia at the same date. At the same time, attempts from Harmony Gold to do the same over the last year have all been blocked and disputed. Feel free to feel it's irrelevant because it's Europe and SE Asia, but something IS happening here guys.

-Sergorn

I'm glad Big West is starting to make a push back and not just going for Macross Delta, but also going for the Macross trademark in Europe is a huge move. 

[SuperSenpai]

23 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Voltron had it's reboot, Thundercats had it's reboot, even He-Man. We have had a lot of 80's animation reboots but if Harmony Gold really has all the rights to the Macross IP they should have done it already, I mean they could have asked Tatsunoko for funding if that were the case. But maybe they actually know they can get sued if they try to make one. Or maybe they attempted to and Tatsunoko or any other company would not sponsor it.

Speaking of Voltron, not to go off on a tangent -- but does anyone know how they managed to do the reboot legally?  Did Dreamworks work under license from the original Japanese producers of Golion, or was the reboot different enough that licensing wasn't necessary?  I'm hard pressed to see how the latter is possible, given that it's pretty similar to the original anime.  They even use names from the original anime like planet Altea and the Galra Empire.

[JB0]

I believe World Event Productions actually bought Golion outright a few years back. My understanding is after one too many times in court over the issue of sequels and remakes, they decided enough was enough.

 

Edit: Easy confirmation. Grabbed the Soul of Chogokin Golion/Voltron box. The legalese line on the front of the japanese box says Golion is copyright World Event Productions. They own it now.

It was probably a cheap purchase, given how little it was making Toei outside of Voltron licensing.

Edited August 24, 2017 by JB0

[Gerli]

Can HG gain control of the Macross Rights if Tatsunoko can't pay the legal fees? Maybe that is one of theyr objetives...

[JB0]

3 minutes ago, Gerli said:

Can HG gain control of the Macross Rights if Tatsunoko can't pay the legal fees? Maybe that is one of theyr objetives...

Pretty sure the answer is a big "nope".  I think they're just in a "sue everyone for everything" phase. It happens every few years.

 

[SuperSenpai]

9 hours ago, JB0 said:

I believe World Event Productions actually bought Golion outright a few years back. My understanding is after one too many times in court over the issue of sequels and remakes, they decided enough was enough.

 

Edit: Easy confirmation. Grabbed the Soul of Chogokin Golion/Voltron box. The legalese line on the front of the japanese box says Golion is copyright World Event Productions. They own it now.

It was probably a cheap purchase, given how little it was making Toei outside of Voltron licensing.

Ah, that makes sense.  Thanks.

[Focslain]

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 11:13 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Unfortunately, US trademark law is written in such a way that it would favor Harmony Gold in any dispute over the ownership of those trademarks, being that they were the first ones to use all the trademarked terms and logos in US markets even though they do not own the show those terms and logos came from.

True, especially if they know where to file thier cases.

However with BW going to EU this can help us as it means that they are in a 'friendly' international market and it can give them an opening to legally distrubute sub or darn I say dubs of thier product.

For us english speaker we just need to get it from good olde Britian. Point is, it seems BW is making a move, which is good.

[Gerli]

6 minutes ago, Focslain said:

True, especially if they know where to file thier cases.

However with BW going to EU this can help us as it means that they are in a 'friendly' international market and it can give them an opening to legally distrubute sub or darn I say dubs of thier product.

For us english speaker we just need to get it from good olde Britian. Point is, it seems BW is making a move, which is good.

Also all Latin America can be benefited if BW licenses Macross in Spain too, so it's a win-win for everybody

[no3Ljm]

13 minutes ago, Focslain said:

True, especially if they know where to file thier cases.

However with BW going to EU this can help us as it means that they are in a 'friendly' international market and it can give them an opening to legally distrubute sub or darn I say dubs of thier product.

For us english speaker we just need to get it from good olde Britian. Point is, it seems BW is making a move, which is good.

This is good then. Rerouting the merchandise for easy access. I hope... 

 

[Dynaman]

1 hour ago, Focslain said:

 

For us english speaker we just need to get it from good olde Britian. Point is, it seems BW is making a move, which is good.

Is Britain in the same zone as the US when it comes to Blu-Ray?  If so that is great news.  If not then it might not be as great but still good.

[no3Ljm]

9 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Is Britain in the same zone as the US when it comes to Blu-Ray?  If so that is great news.  If not then it might not be as great but still good.

http://www.codefreedvd.com/region-free-dvd-questions.html

Looks like it's different region.

 

[technoblue]

5 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Is Britain in the same zone as the US when it comes to Blu-Ray?  If so that is great news.  If not then it might not be as great but still good.

The US is part of region A and the UK is part of region B. Sometimes discs are made region free. I notice this a lot on first-press UK BDs. Also, there are region free players/region free modifications although some countries have restrictions against such player modifications.

[Focslain]

1 minute ago, technoblue said:

The US is part of region A and the UK is part of region B. Sometimes discs are made region free. I notice this a lot on first-press UK BDs. Also, there are region free players/region free modifications although some countries have restrictions against such player modifications.

I know there are a lot of region free blu-ray players out there. Shouldn't be too hard to find one.

[technoblue]

4 minutes ago, Focslain said:

I know there are a lot of region free blu-ray players out there. Shouldn't be too hard to find one.

Yeah. I have an older oppo BD player that does a good job. 

I guess a better way to word my post above is to say  that the manufacturing companies don't support aftermarket region free modifications. 

[Dynaman]

6 hours ago, technoblue said:

The US is part of region A and the UK is part of region B. Sometimes discs are made region free. I notice this a lot on first-press UK BDs. Also, there are region free players/region free modifications although some countries have restrictions against such player modifications.

IF HG still has a lock on the Macross name and other items in the US but not in the UK I'd bet a million dollars that UK Macross Blu-Rays are not going to be region free.  After the first lawsuit anyway...

[technoblue]

1 hour ago, Dynaman said:

IF HG still has a lock on the Macross name and other items in the US but not in the UK I'd bet a million dollars that UK Macross Blu-Rays are not going to be region free.  After the first lawsuit anyway...

Right. As long as HG retains the US trademark as it is today. 

It might be a long shot idea, but I like the notion that the Japanese owners are waiting for the best time to reclaim their international marks. The US mark is like the boss level and might be the toughest legal battle to win, but will allow them to complete the entire map.

[kajnrig]

Since HG hasn't acted on their Macross copyright?/trademark? in... forever... can't said copyright/trademark be challenged in court?

[JB0]

1 hour ago, kajnrig said:

Since HG hasn't acted on their Macross copyright?/trademark? in... forever... can't said copyright/trademark be challenged in court?

Trademark. Big West still holds the copyright.

Trademarks can definitely be challenged, but how successfully is up in the air. Particularly as US law designates "intent to use" as a valid reason to hold a trademark, and they have enough historical usage of it to make a believable case that they intend to do so again.

And, well, they DO still use some of the Macross trademarks. The UN Spacy kite appears on all their VF-1 toys, as well as the singing Minmay doll toy. That they seem to be backing off of the phrase "Macross Saga" on their newer merchandise comes as a surprise to me, admittedly, but it still appears on some of their older merchandise that's currently available .