Harmony Gold suing Tatsunoko

[blackconvoy_D01]

3 minutes ago, Bolt said:

I like the colored version. The B&w line art looks really wrong to me .

They’re gonna keep trying until something sticks to the wall and doesn’t slide off , leaving behind a brown snail trail stain.

It looks like he was going for a cross between the Vector and the Legioss Drone, based on the canopy.

Edited July 23, 2019 by blackconvoy_D01

[jenius]

Aren't those the first sketches Aramki did of what became the Legioss?

Edited July 23, 2019 by jenius

[Gerli]

I like those designs... at least are somehow originals and don't stick all the way to Macross. The character designs are also nice, even if they scream Macross 7 too!

 

[Seto Kaiba]

14 minutes ago, jenius said:

Aren't those the first sketches Aramki did of what became the Legioss?

Yes, back when MOSPEADA was called Descent Soldier Vector.

[Vifam7]

Can these guys ever draw something completely original and good-looking instead of just uglifying or skimming Macross/Mospeada designs?

I might have a wee bit of respect for RT if they could do just that.

[NightmarePlus]

I don't believe originality exists within their vocabulary.

[Seto Kaiba]

21 hours ago, Vifam7 said:

Can these guys ever draw something completely original and good-looking instead of just uglifying or skimming Macross/Mospeada designs?

That's actually pretty damned hard to do... particularly when you have to design something that also transforms into an equally original and good-looking giant robot.

Even the industry professionals in Japan struggle with that so it isn't altogether surprising that Harmony Gold and its licensees can't pull it off when they don't have the budget to hire mechanical designers.

Tommy Yune did make one attempt to develop an original VF for Robotech as part of the development of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, but it never made it past the rough draft phase.  It was called the VF-13 Gamma Fighter and it looked like a more advanced, transformable version of MOSPEADA's AF-03.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's actually pretty damned hard to do... particularly when you have to design something that also transforms into an equally original and good-looking giant robot.

Even the industry professionals in Japan struggle with that so it isn't altogether surprising that Harmony Gold and its licensees can't pull it off when they don't have the budget to hire mechanical designers.

Tommy Yune did make one attempt to develop an original VF for Robotech as part of the development of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, but it never made it past the rough draft phase.  It was called the VF-13 Gamma Fighter and it looked like a more advanced, transformable version of MOSPEADA's AF-03.

Yeah, it is very hard to do; you have to account not just for where parts would go, but that they do not create "traffic jams" (points where the parts get in the way of each other and cannot be reconciled), joints can support the weight of the parts, and that there is enough armor coverage that gaps that could leave inner mechanisms exposed are filled in.

(Note: No, crochet  didn't work out for me. I stink at it, so I gave sci-fi another chance)

In the end, that's why Valk designs are very hard to do, and Tommy Yune gets a lot of credit for even trying here. I designed and build my own transformable Valk some time ago, and I had to rework it a ton of times. And yet, folks complained about it no matter how I revised it. In the end, I settled for what I came up with, though I'm still thinking of possible ways to revise and improve it. As it stands, when Shoji Kawamori designs his stuff out, I heard he uses Lego to test the transforms and whatnot; that's how hard it can be.  And he created the Valkyries to begin with!

So to the point: I agree completely, Seito. It's not so simple, and anyone who tries it, I give  a lot of credit just for the attempt.

[Knight26]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's actually pretty damned hard to do... particularly when you have to design something that also transforms into an equally original and good-looking giant robot.

Even the industry professionals in Japan struggle with that so it isn't altogether surprising that Harmony Gold and its licensees can't pull it off when they don't have the budget to hire mechanical designers.

Tommy Yune did make one attempt to develop an original VF for Robotech as part of the development of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, but it never made it past the rough draft phase.  It was called the VF-13 Gamma Fighter and it looked like a more advanced, transformable version of MOSPEADA's AF-03.

Agreed, especially given that Valkyries, or Variable Fighters are not supposed to be based on magic tech, but be fairly realistic.  Things like engines, reactors, cockpits, etc... have be kept intact.  As opposed to something like Transformers where none of that matters or is taken into consideration.

[jenius]

Space can be liberating though, if they made some dedicated space fighters they could have much more unusual shapes. Hmm, I want a transformable A-wing... guess that's not very original though

[Chronocidal]

Sadly, seems they never got around to that particular design.  

So, I agree it's not easy to design a good transforming fighter, but I don't honestly think the difficulty is what keeps HG from doing so.  Lots of folks across the Macross fanbase as a whole (and some on this board over the years) have come up with some pretty good, or at the very least promising, designs of their own over the years.

However, as we've seen demonstrated time and time again, HG has no interest in investing in making new material.  If you'll forgive a bit of broad generalization, the types of folks who set out to make those sorts of designs, and do it well, tend to fall under both the mechanically and artistically inclined heading.  Unless HG goes out recruiting artists out of high school, they're probably the types of folks most likely to wind up with engineering degrees of some sort.  Do you really think HG is going to pony up the cash to hire someone working at a professional engineering rate, just to develop transforming airplane designs?  And do you honestly think anyone in possession of those types of talents or degrees is going to be running toward HG in the first place, given their track record?

I think the only "real" hope HG has is to find a herd of magical unicorn mechanical/aeronautical design graduates who are all independently wealthy, and whose sole goal in life is to revitalize the Robotech franchise.

The other slight problem is that, yeah, you can design stuff that looks like Macross material.. but get too close to the source, and you're inviting comparisons that won't be helpful.  Designing copycat stuff is easy.. coming up with something in an entirely original aesthetic is getting more difficult all the time.

I think it really just boils down to HG not being willing to take the risk to put up the money to develop something of their own.  We saw how well the Academy kickstarter went. 

It's also really hard to develop something new, when the only thing you really have going for you among your own fans is nostalgia for a pile of design work that you don't actually own.  

Edited July 24, 2019 by Chronocidal

[Vifam7]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's actually pretty damned hard to do... particularly when you have to design something that also transforms into an equally original and good-looking giant robot.

Even the industry professionals in Japan struggle with that so it isn't altogether surprising that Harmony Gold and its licensees can't pull it off when they don't have the budget to hire mechanical designers.

Tommy Yune did make one attempt to develop an original VF for Robotech as part of the development of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, but it never made it past the rough draft phase.  It was called the VF-13 Gamma Fighter and it looked like a more advanced, transformable version of MOSPEADA's AF-03.

 

Color me a bit impressed. That's actually a pretty good attempt. 

To be fair, I understand that designing a a fighter jet that transforms into a good looking robot is difficult.  And personally, if the fighter mode looks good, I can probably overlook an ugly battroid mode. 

But when a supposed new mecha from a new RT project looks like nothing more than a Legioss or VF-1 with extra bits or some minor cosmetic changes, I can't help but say 'lazy'.  More of something like what is shown in the above "VF-13" would actually get me interested in certain elements of Robotech, because at least it would show me that there is some creativity and some aesthetic sense at HG.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Vifam7

[Seto Kaiba]

13 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

However, as we've seen demonstrated time and time again, HG has no interest in investing in making new material. 

Forgive me for tackling your post out of order, but this claim is rather easily refuted as obviously false.

Harmony Gold can be demonstrated to have invested in the development of new designs, even if they ultimately went unused, in both Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles and the more recent failed Robotech Academy pilot.  Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles had several new designs make it into the finished product, albeit mostly ones derivative of MOSPEADA works like the Ark Angel-class and Shimakaze-class or fairly generic-looking like the Haydonite ships and fighters.  There were also several new designs that went unused, such as the VF-13 Gamma Fighter I posted in my last post, a "Hover Cyclone", and a version of the Ark Angel-class that obviously went unused because it transformed in a manner similar to the SDF-1.  There were a number of new designs trotted out for the Robotech Academy pilot before the Kickstarter was cancelled, three fighters and two ships.

Investing in making new material is not the same thing as investing in making original new material or high quality new material.

 

13 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

So, I agree it's not easy to design a good transforming fighter, but I don't honestly think the difficulty is what keeps HG from doing so.  Lots of folks across the Macross fanbase as a whole (and some on this board over the years) have come up with some pretty good, or at the very least promising, designs of their own over the years.

First, let us differentiate between creating a good design for a transforming fighter and creating a good original design for a transforming fighter.  Those two are NOT the same.

Macross fans are working with much less strict constraints because they're fan artists... not a rival franchise that isn't legally permitted to create derivative works based on the design works of Macross.  

 

13 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

I think it really just boils down to HG not being willing to take the risk to put up the money to develop something of their own.  We saw how well the Academy kickstarter went. 

You're half right... it boils down to HG not being willing to invest the kind of money it would take to do a quality job developing something of their own.

A big part of the reason that Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles and Robotech Academy were such fiascos were because what got produced was developed and produced on the very tightest of shoestring budgets.  The writing was awful and the animation looked like arse because these things cost money... money Harmony Gold isn't willing to spend because it believes new Robotech development will fail no matter what just as firmly as we do, which makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[jenius]

HG should work with Tatsunoko to develop a new anime that they could help fund for the sole purpose of including in Robotech. They should hire Aramaki and some talent to put together a stand alone story that can be shoe horned into the Robotech timeline. 

[Chronocidal]

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Forgive me for tackling your post out of order, but this claim is rather easily refuted as obviously false.

Harmony Gold can be demonstrated to have invested in the development of new designs, even if they ultimately went unused, in both Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles and the more recent failed Robotech Academy pilot.  Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles had several new designs make it into the finished product, albeit mostly ones derivative of MOSPEADA works like the Ark Angel-class and Shimakaze-class or fairly generic-looking like the Haydonite ships and fighters.  There were also several new designs that went unused, such as the VF-13 Gamma Fighter I posted in my last post, a "Hover Cyclone", and a version of the Ark Angel-class that obviously went unused because it transformed in a manner similar to the SDF-1.  There were a number of new designs trotted out for the Robotech Academy pilot before the Kickstarter was cancelled, three fighters and two ships.

Investing in making new material is not the same thing as investing in making original new material or high quality new material.

Very fair, I was generalizing too broadly.  Your last point there is pretty much what I was aiming for.. they don't want to invest enough in making new material.  They can come up with kitbashes and derivatives of all of their own stuff until the end of time, but unless they actually pony up the money to draw in some talent with the abilities to do better, that's pretty much all they're going to have.

I honestly don't know how they would even begin to recruit new talent at this point.

[pengbuzz]

46 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

Very fair, I was generalizing too broadly.  Your last point there is pretty much what I was aiming for.. they don't want to invest enough in making new material.  They can come up with kitbashes and derivatives of all of their own stuff until the end of time, but unless they actually pony up the money to draw in some talent with the abilities to do better, that's pretty much all they're going to have.

I honestly don't know how they would even begin to recruit new talent at this point.

At the rate HG is going, at gun point would be their only option.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

43 minutes ago, jenius said:

HG should work with Tatsunoko to develop a new anime that they could help fund for the sole purpose of including in Robotech. They should hire Aramaki and some talent to put together a stand alone story that can be shoe horned into the Robotech timeline. 

Eech... have you seen Tatsunoko Production's last attempt at an original mecha anime?

It was called The Price of Smiles, it was a 12 episode series created for Tatsunoko's celebration of its 55th Anniversary, and it was a f*cking unwatchable mess. 

Getting Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko to work together to develop a new mecha anime is a textbook case of the blind leading the blind.

 

46 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

They can come up with kitbashes and derivatives of all of their own stuff until the end of time, but unless they actually pony up the money to draw in some talent with the abilities to do better, that's pretty much all they're going to have.

I honestly don't know how they would even begin to recruit new talent at this point.

Harmony Gold ended up with the staff they currently have is that the brand's reputation is terrible.  Nobody but a fan would want to have Robotech on their resume, and at the salary Harmony Gold is willing to pay for franchise staff most of the fans don't want it on their resume either.

They don't have any way to attract new talent because they don't have money and they don't have fame.  If the company were a poker hand, it'd be a joker, a misprint, the card that tells you about poker hands, and two coasters from the casino bar... not even close to a winning proposition.

 

Just now, pengbuzz said:

At the rate HG is going, at gun point would be their only option.

On their salaries?  HG's staff would be lucky to afford Airsoft, never mind a real gun.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, jenius said:

HG should work with Tatsunoko to develop a new anime that they could help fund for the sole purpose of including in Robotech. They should hire Aramaki and some talent to put together a stand alone story that can be shoe horned into the Robotech timeline. 

They could call it Robotec II: The Sentinels!

[Bolt]

[blackconvoy_D01]

@Seto Kaiba do you mean this hover cycle?

[Seto Kaiba]

41 minutes ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

@Seto Kaiba do you mean this hover cycle?

No, it was an actually-new design... looked a bit like a Star Wars speeder bike TBH.  I unfortunately don't have a pic handy the way I did for the other one.  (I'm in the middle of switching to a new PC, so for now I'm posting from my eminently crappy tablet.)

They didn't start pillaging the Imai Files for material until a decade later.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[blackconvoy_D01]

9 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

No, it was an actually-new design... looked a bit like a Star Wars speeder bike TBH.  I unfortunately don't have a pic handy the way I did for the other one.  (I'm in the middle of switching to a new PC, so for now I'm posting from my eminently crappy tablet.)

They didn't start pillaging the Imai Files for material until a decade later.

LOL. I remembered this pick recently;

Interesting on the bike. I'll see if I can find it.

Edited July 25, 2019 by blackconvoy_D01

[Old_Nash]

2 hours ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

LOL. I remembered this pick recently;

Interesting on the bike. I'll see if I can find it.

I never play this game. It's good?

[blackconvoy_D01]

4 hours ago, Old_Nash said:

I never play this game. It's good?

For it's time, yeah.

[pengbuzz]

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Harmony Gold ended up with the staff they currently have is that the brand's reputation is terrible.  Nobody but a fan would want to have Robotech on their resume, and at the salary Harmony Gold is willing to pay for franchise staff most of the fans don't want it on their resume either.

They don't have any way to attract new talent because they don't have money and they don't have fame.  If the company were a poker hand, it'd be a joker, a misprint, the card that tells you about poker hands, and two coasters from the casino bar... not even close to a winning proposition.

Don't forget an Uno card.

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

On their salaries?  HG's staff would be lucky to afford Airsoft, never mind a real gun.

[Knight26]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Don't forget an Uno card.

So this brings up the question, where did they get the money to pay Tatsunoko?  You can't tell me that BW/Bandai couldn't come up with a better offer.

[Vifam7]

31 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

So this brings up the question, where did they get the money to pay Tatsunoko?  You can't tell me that BW/Bandai couldn't come up with a better offer.

Maybe Tatsunoko actually likes Robotech and was willing to take less to allow HG continue the Robotech brand?

Edited July 25, 2019 by Vifam7

[jenius]

47 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

So this brings up the question, where did they get the money to pay Tatsunoko?  You can't tell me that BW/Bandai couldn't come up with a better offer.

From what I hear, BW refuses to engage in any business with Tatsunoko. So... Not hard for HG to get the rights.

[Seto Kaiba]

56 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

So this brings up the question, where did they get the money to pay Tatsunoko?  You can't tell me that BW/Bandai couldn't come up with a better offer.

They didn't... Tatsunoko owed Harmony Gold money due to having been ordered to pay Harmony Gold's court costs and attorney fees at the end of the binding arbitration process that both companies entered into to resolve Tatsunoko's claim that Harmony Gold had been underpaying royalties owed for home video and streaming use of Tatsunoko's animation.  They didn't pay up, so Harmony Gold filed a lawsuit against Tatsunoko in the California central district court (the original subject of this thread).

We can't be 100% certain until the next time a lawsuit airs the contracts, but it would appear Tatsunoko held the all-important Robotech license renewal hostage until Harmony Gold agreed to drop the lawsuit and waive payment of part or all of the money owed from the arbitration award.

(From Tatsunoko's perspective, this was probably the best possible move to make... getting out of another expensive legal proceeding and simultaneously sticking Harmony Gold with the check from the last one.)

Edited July 25, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[Knight26]

14 minutes ago, jenius said:

From what I hear, BW refuses to engage in any business with Tatsunoko. So... Not hard for HG to get the rights.

So we have an issue where BW still feels slighted by how Tatsunoko handled the Macross/Robotech license and they won't even come to the table to strike a deal to get it all back in house.  Come on people.
 

 

10 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They didn't... Tatsunoko owed Harmony Gold money due to having been ordered to pay Harmony Gold's court costs and attorney fees at the end of the binding arbitration process that both companies entered into to resolve Tatsunoko's claim that Harmony Gold had been underpaying royalties owed for home video and streaming use of Tatsunoko's animation.  They didn't pay up, so Harmony Gold filed a lawsuit against Tatsunoko in the California central district court (the original subject of this thread).

We can't be 100% certain until the next time a lawsuit airs the contracts, but it would appear Tatsunoko held the all-important Robotech license renewal hostage until Harmony Gold agreed to drop the lawsuit and waive payment of part or all of the money owed from the arbitration award.

(From Tatsunoko's perspective, this was probably the best possible move to make... getting out of another expensive legal proceeding and simultaneously sticking Harmony Gold with the check from the last one.)

Makes sense for Tatsunoko.  IF that is the case, what is the likelihood/possibility that they snuck some form of trapdoor outclause into the contract?

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

Makes sense for Tatsunoko.  IF that is the case, what is the likelihood/possibility that they snuck some form of trapdoor outclause into the contract?

There are likely several, which have probably been there since the beginning.

Unfortunately, they would almost certainly require some manner of bad faith or criminal misconduct on Harmony Gold's part that would expose Tatsunoko to liability in some form or harm the integrity of Tatsunoko's IP.

[peter]

It still baffles me that there are still Robotech fans after all this debauchery.

 

[Knight26]

1 minute ago, peter said:

It still baffles me that there are still Robotech fans after all this debauchery.

 

You forget about the boundlessness of human ignorance.  I still run into RT fans, not former fans, who have no idea that RT is made from three other original IPs.  When you educate them they get really interested, but that's about it.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, peter said:

It still baffles me that there are still Robotech fans after all this debauchery.

Robotech fans are a demonstration of that old adage that Ignorance is Bliss.

Harmony Gold put a lot of time and effort into discouraging them from seeking out the facts themselves and the wilfully deluded among them continue to spread misinformation, so a lot of Robotech fans simply don't know that better things exist or have been actively discouraged from looking into them.

[Chronocidal]

So, BW refusing to do business with Tatsunoko is an interesting twist to this I hadn't heard before.  Not that they really have any reason to really do so, I suppose, but I wonder if BW is playing their own waiting game with Tatsunoko, hoping they'll go under, or offer up the distribution rights willingly.

Given the lack of action on that end of the globe, I have to wonder if BW is just perfectly content not having to deal with international distribution for Macross at all, and doesn't see any reason they should have to pay anything to get back what they never actually sold to Tatsunoko in the first place, and HG claims they now have.  

While we'd all love them to sell official Macross merchandise here, the perceived value of this market may not be worth the loss of face and and effort it would cost them to basically pay what amounts to a ransom note for the IP HG laid its claim on.