Harmony Gold suing Tatsunoko

[That one dude]

20 hours ago, sketchley said:

 

Sadly, the one way to have solved this and gotten BW to play ball with Tatsunoko was to have shown Big West how big a profit they can get from overseas customers...

I dunno if anyone noticed but they recently changed all their copyrights from the Japanese ⓒビックウエスト to the English ⓒBIGWEST which makes me think they were getting ready to move worldwide...

well at least until this Sh## hit the fan

[JB0]

5 minutes ago, That one dude said:

I dunno if anyone noticed but they recently changed all their copyrights from the Japanese ⓒビックウエスト to the English ⓒBIGWEST which makes me think they were getting ready to move worldwide...

well at least until this Sh## hit the fan

They might also just be emphasizing it, particularly given how HG has historically credited SDF as "copyright Tatsunoko

[Seto Kaiba]

23 minutes ago, tekering said:

While "far more readily associated" is typical Seto Kaiba hyperbole, it does actually exist...!  

I was talking more about the line of pool cleaners, but the sex toy was just too good to not throw in there given how often I've said the Robotech creative team's business plan is "just jerking off".

 

23 minutes ago, tekering said:

This one's my new favorite.  

My compliments, sir.  

I'll never stop, until someone founds the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Metaphors.  

[Bolt]

Haha! All good stuff my friends 

ok..

36 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The only reason it got picked up in the first place was because Paramount was making bank on Transformers and it just happened to be a giant robot show that was on the air around the same time back in the 80's. 

Kevin literally said the same thing in his own words..

 

28 minutes ago, Einherjar said:

I don’t know Bolt.  From your description of that stream, to me a lot of promises that the HG PR guy made about the franchise sounds suspiciously like past things he has said over a decade ago during streamed interviews for past shows like the ones I mentioned, almost verbatim.  Kind of lame if the PR strategy is to what they did before, but adjust it for a more Internet savvy group of people, and hope no one remembers what was said from that far back.

Just a quick question, were any of these lines used at all in the stream:

gangbusters

x is quacking in their boots

tent pole franchise

We own everything in Macross

I don’t recall hearing any of those catch phrases..but there CERTAINLY was a lot of hype and excitement and EVERY question , harsh or flattering was “such a great question! I’m so glad you asked that..!”

But there really wasn’t any content to speak of..

 

26 minutes ago, tekering said:

Had to Google that one...



Try it once , you’ll never go back. (Or walk again!)

[Sir Galahad®]

7 hours ago, JB0 said:

Of the new serieses, yes. 

Of SDF Macross, no. HG, through Tatsunoko, has exclusive worldwide distribution rights to that entry in the franchise.

But if they release RT in the UK, and the term Macross has been trademarked by BW, wouldn't that be a problem for Tatsunoko/HG as well?

[Einherjar]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

I don’t recall hearing any of those catch phrases..but there CERTAINLY was a lot of hype and excitement and EVERY question , harsh or flattering was “such a great question! I’m so glad you asked that..!”

But there really wasn’t any content to speak of..

This is out of the context of robots and idols, but I learned recently that that might be a bad sign.

Freakonomics - That's a Great Question

Anyway, if you have the time, compare what he said recently to over a decade ago and forward.  Just look for any episodes involving Kevin McKeever.  I will say that he worked really hard for that ridiculous sounding job title at HG.

https://www.talkshoe.com/show/space-station-liberty?page=5

Damn, looks like TalkShoe lost a lot of the most recent episodes I was referencing from the early 2010s.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Einherjar

[Lolicon]

2 hours ago, tekering said:

Had to Google that one...

What's sad is that's probably the best product with the Robotech name to be released between 1985 to whenever Kids Logic started making merchandise under the Robotech banner.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Sir Galahad® said:

But if they release RT in the UK, and the term Macross has been trademarked by BW, wouldn't that be a problem for Tatsunoko/HG as well?

They'll have to call "The Macross Saga" something else in the UK. That's pretty much the extent of the issue, since they aren't actually interested in selling SDF Macross to anyone inside OR outside the UK. * 

"Foundation Saga" has a nice ring to it, I think. It also strikes me as on-brand for the Robotech franchise. If I were HG, that's what I'd start rebranding the tale of Rick Hunter, Lisa Hayes, and Lynn Minmei to.

...

Or they could be boring and call it "First Generation" like they did for the novelizations. Less stomping on toes, less stolen greatness, more BORING.

 

 

 

*This is, incidentally, why HG initially trademarked the Macross title. It was simply to prevent anyone from releasing anything with the word Macross in the title in the west unless they paid the ransom licensing fee to HG first.

[HardlyNever]

Kinda funny how everyone was writing this event off as another propaganda party from HG, then they drop this bombshell.  I was going to watch the video today, but now I guess I don't have to .  Like most others, I'm disappointed, but not surprised.  Like the Toy Galaxy guy said at the end of his last video, HG has spent the last 30 odd years fighting for these rights, do you really think they are just going to let them go without a fight?  I'm still waiting for some confirmation from a non-HG party that they do in fact have the rights extended, but I'd say odds are slim they are lying about this particular thing.

But even if HG did lose the rights, I don't think we'd have this great Macross renaissance in the west that some people are fantasizing about.  You'd still be importing all your toys if you wanted the top-end stuff (look at Star Wars merchandise).  There is no way that stuff (DX Chogokin, Arcadia)  would be sold domestically.  We would maybe get some cheaper version of the HMR line, but even that probably wouldn't happen.

We would probably have access to cheaper blue-rays, and older Macross shows would be easier to come by, and maybe have official english subs.  But that's about it, imo.

The reality is, Macross just wouldn't be a big money-maker in the west, at least in the short to mid term.  If Big West or some other company thought it would be, they would be throwing more money at the HG problem.  No major company thinks it is worth the investment, and they are probably right.  I know that isn't a popular opinion on a Macross forum, but money talks in this case.

[Lolicon]

^ That's your 666th post, Mr. Doom & Gloom. 

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

But if they release RT in the UK, and the term Macross has been trademarked by BW, wouldn't that be a problem for Tatsunoko/HG as well?

That would depend on what else Big West successfully trademarks there.

The UKIPO shows that Harmony Gold's trademark filings in the European Union are currently being challenged by Big West as well... not just the ones on the Macross name, but what appears to be practically every related mark that Harmony Gold uses to stop Macross licensing in the west.  If memory serves, EU trademark law preferences the owner of the material over the first user.  Should Big West successfully win those challenges, they would have the power to effectively lock Robotech out of the entire European Union by forbidding them to use the name and logo of Macross, the UN Spacy and Zentradi emblems, the term "UN Spacy", and the key art of the main characters and mecha.

[TehPW]

A thought occurred to me while typing a comment on CBT.com on this topic: The NUNS (and it's frontier Kite) and the redesigns for Macross: The First, to me, are clearly both artistic liberties as well as legal moves (when you think about the still existing cold war between Bigwest & Tatsunoko) but could the creation of the VF-0 (and the resulting retcon of the Macross back story) also be legal moves? Has anyone done a timeline of the creation of the various Macross properties and concurrent legal events to see a possible picture forming? 

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, TehPW said:

Has anyone done a timeline of the creation of the various Macross properties and concurrent legal events to see a possible picture forming? 

That's one of the things being worked on for my new site.

 

5 minutes ago, TehPW said:

A thought occurred to me while typing a comment on CBT.com on this topic: The NUNS (and it's frontier Kite) and the redesigns for Macross: The First, to me, are clearly both artistic liberties as well as legal moves (when you think about the still existing cold war between Bigwest & Tatsunoko) but could the creation of the VF-0 (and the resulting retcon of the Macross back story) also be legal moves? 

Really, I doubt it.  The backstory didn't really change all that much, and the redesigns for Macross the First are minor cosmetic details at best and not NEARLY enough to get around any kind of legal issues WRT the designs.

[Mommar]

5 hours ago, HardlyNever said:

KThere is no way that stuff (DX Chogokin, Arcadia)  would be sold domestically. 

Why?

[HardlyNever]

11 minutes ago, Mommar said:

Why?

I'll start with the caveat that when I say "domestically,"  I mean the US.  This may not apply to other (non-Japan) countries.

If you look at what is marketed in toy aisles across the US, especially the "high end" lines like Marvel Legends and Star Wars Black Series, you'll notice a disturbing trend of everything falling into a roughly 6-inch size, at roughly $20.  Marvel Legends and Star Wars BS are specifically marketed towards the "adult" collector that grew up with those franchises, and the highest quality/cost they will go is about $20-$25.  NECA, follows a similar trend.  For better or worse, right or wrong, that is what toy companies think the US market wants.  If you want higher quality stuff, even for something as "American" as Star Wars, you have to import from Japan.

So transfer that to Bandai's offerings in the US.  Bandai starting doing "imports" (but they aren't really imports) of some of their lines.  When Pacific Rim 2 came out, we had "Robot Spirits" figures out on US shelves, but they were way below the price most Robot Spirits figures are at.  We had stuff like the Gypsy Avenger available for just over $20 (it is higher now, because it has been out several years, but it retailed at like $23 at Toys R Us).  Their current DBZ Dragon Stars line is $20-$22, at roughly 6 inches (they sell higher quality/price toys in Japan with their SH Figuarts line for DBZ).  Their new Gundam Uninverse line, same story.  Even when Bandai comes to the US market, they don't try to sell things like they do in Japan, they bring the cost and quality down to meet the supposed "expectations" of the market.

Of course you can always find exceptions to this, usually at specialty import shops, and/or places that sell Bluefin stuff.  But you're really not getting that big of a discount verses what you currently pay at the online shops like HLJ, NY, AmiAmi, etc.  And that is for big names like Gundam.  If it were Macross stuff, yeah, I'm pretty sure we'd still be importing.  Bandai isn't going to gamble selling a $150 DX Chogokin to a market that is used to ~$20, 6 inch figures.

[M'Kyuun]

True, but there are entities like Amazon, comic book stores, Barnes and Noble, hobby stores, and big box retailer online stores that generally carry higher end toys. I doubt I'll ever see Siege Omega Supreme in my local Walmart, which is retailing for $150, but I'll bet Wally and Target will both have it in their online stores. So, I think there are a number of potential venues for higher end merchandise in the US. I think a larger issue would be knowledge of the property; Macross in the US is still a very niche property, whether you're familiar with RT or the original Japanese SDFM, and that might cause Big West or Bandai to question whether or not enough market exists to bother. It's all academic now, unfortunately. I had really high hopes that Tatsunoko finally had enough of HG's shenanigans and would refuse to renew their license.

I'm thinking I'll probably never see Macross merch without a Harmony Gold sticker affixed to it in the US in my lifetime.

[jenius]

Yeah, I think the only 'domestic' seller we would see of high-end Macross stuff would be the big online retailers like Amazon and all the shops you can grab Transformers from. I guess I could see Hi-Metal R stuff more readily available IF there was new Macross on the air that went along with it. 

[Seto Kaiba]

5 minutes ago, jenius said:

Yeah, I think the only 'domestic' seller we would see of high-end Macross stuff would be the big online retailers like Amazon and all the shops you can grab Transformers from. I guess I could see Hi-Metal R stuff more readily available IF there was new Macross on the air that went along with it. 

At the very least, we could've counted on Macross kits popping up in Barnes and Noble, game stores, and so on the way Gunpla do.

[JB0]

I remember seeing the Yamato YF-19 and -21 in Suncoast Video ages ago. The thing that started all this legal mess in the first place, if I'm not mistaken.

 

There USED to be a market for this stuff. It might be fair to say KG killed it.

Edited July 8, 2019 by JB0

[Kanedas Bike]

All I want is my high end toys at "reasonable" prices without having to stay up, or get up, at 2 (or 3) AM.

-b,

[HardlyNever]

1 hour ago, M'Kyuun said:

True, but there are entities like Amazon, comic book stores, Barnes and Noble, hobby stores, and big box retailer online stores that generally carry higher end toys. I doubt I'll ever see Siege Omega Supreme in my local Walmart, which is retailing for $150, but I'll bet Wally and Target will both have it in their online stores. So, I think there are a number of potential venues for higher end merchandise in the US. I think a larger issue would be knowledge of the property; Macross in the US is still a very niche property, whether you're familiar with RT or the original Japanese SDFM, and that might cause Big West or Bandai to question whether or not enough market exists to bother. It's all academic now, unfortunately. I had really high hopes that Tatsunoko finally had enough of HG's shenanigans and would refuse to renew their license.

I'm thinking I'll probably never see Macross merch without a Harmony Gold sticker affixed to it in the US in my lifetime.

You can get Hi Metal R and DX Chogokin stuff on US Amazon right now.  You just have to pay (another) middle-man fee.  But they actually have ok deals on HMR stuff, every once and a while.

I'm supposing you mean Amazon would stock the product locally, in bulk, and bring the prices down to basically Japanese prices.  It could have happened, I'm just skeptical the high-end stuff would be popular enough for them to do that on an on-going basis.  But they trial things like that, so maybe it would have worked out.  But we'd only be saving $5-10 dollars on a $200 product.  The supply could possibly increase, though, which could be great.

Like you said, it is all academic at this point.  And I'm all for hating on HG.  I just don't think our hobby would have changed that much, had things worked out the way we wanted.  It would have just made the media more accessible, at least legally.

[Kanedas Bike]

13 minutes ago, HardlyNever said:

You can get Hi Metal R and DX Chogokin stuff on US Amazon right now.  You just have to pay (another) middle-man fee.  But they actually have ok deals on HMR stuff, every once and a while.

I'm supposing you mean Amazon would stock the product locally, in bulk, and bring the prices down to basically Japanese prices.  It could have happened, I'm just skeptical the high-end stuff would be popular enough for them to do that on an on-going basis.  But they trial things like that, so maybe it would have worked out.  But we'd only be saving $5-10 dollars on a $200 product.  The supply could possibly increase, though, which could be great.

Like you said, it is all academic at this point.  And I'm all for hating on HG.  I just don't think our hobby would have changed that much, had things worked out the way we wanted.  It would have just made the media more accessible, at least legally.

Please take this as intended, because I think you stated your points fairly eloquently on why things may not have worked as folks may have imagined with Arcadia and Bandai toys in-stock and available minus any markups at places like Amazon, B&N and many of our other favorite small or large e-tailers.

It is all academic, but I wish there's a way to have proven you wrong. Respectfully. 

-b.

[Einherjar]

11 hours ago, HardlyNever said:

Kinda funny how everyone was writing this event off as another propaganda party from HG, then they drop this bombshell.  I was going to watch the video today, but now I guess I don't have to .  Like most others, I'm disappointed, but not surprised.  Like the Toy Galaxy guy said at the end of his last video, HG has spent the last 30 odd years fighting for these rights, do you really think they are just going to let them go without a fight?  I'm still waiting for some confirmation from a non-HG party that they do in fact have the rights extended, but I'd say odds are slim they are lying about this particular thing.

Funny you say that, because having been around for so long I’ve been having deja vu about this whole PR blitz, the fan interaction side of things and the lack of solid information being given.  The official staff is older, but they’ve surrounded themselves with younger, more enthusiastic fans and using variations on old tricks to generate excitement for whatever is in the pipeline.  A lot of most of what I’ve said in other posts is from observing their predecessors in the fandom and the horror stories they went through.  Unless HG really has a real vision for where the franchise is this time around, I think I’ve already seen how this will end.

[treatment]

1 hour ago, Kanedas Bike said:

All I want is my high end toys at "reasonable" prices without having to stay up, or get up, at 2 (or 3) AM.

-b,

 

Yeah.  Like how it currently is now with MB Gundams and MB EVAs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, wait...

 

[Kanedas Bike]

14 minutes ago, treatment said:

 

Yeah.  Like how it currently is now with MB Gundams and MB EVAs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, wait...

 

Well...I mean I didn't have to be up to get pre-orders for the Metal Build Gundams I've purchased at Entertainment Earth, or the Metal Build Evas I purchased or the SOC Voltron. All of which are insanely difficult to get from Japanese sites and require me to get up just before the birds.

-b.

[treatment]

2 minutes ago, Kanedas Bike said:

Well...I mean I didn't have to be up to get pre-orders for the Metal Build Gundams I've purchased at Entertainment Earth, or the Metal Build Evas I purchased or the SOC Voltron. All of which are insanely difficult to get from Japanese sites and require me to get up just before the birds.

-b.

 

I'm not really sure how you define "reasonable prices",  but I don't quite recall EE ever having "reasonable prices"  even without the current scalperpo-rush.

Maybe they get their inventory up a bit longer than the usual import-shops and/or maybe their pricing is reasonable only compared to, say, bbts or something...

 

 

[Kanedas Bike]

Just now, treatment said:

 

I'm not really sure how you define "reasonable prices",  but I don't quite recall EE ever having "reasonable prices"  even without the current scalperpo-rush.

Maybe they get their inventory up a bit longer than the usual import-shops and/or maybe their pricing is reasonable only compared to, say, bbts or something...

 

 

Entertainment Earth's prices are the same as BBTS and US Amazon (which may be slightly cheaper just because they're Amazon).

So by reasonable, I mean SRP or whatever the going discount is, not N-Y 2nd and subsequent round listings, eBay, Yahoo! Japan or Amazon.jp Marketplace.

-b.

[Ikaruss]

Well...

[M'Kyuun]

That's quite apt.

BTW, what's the alleged term of this new agreement?   I'm genuinely curious, although I suppose the real answer is 'indefinite'.

I know nothing of corporate law, but one would think there'd be some sort of regulation placed upon a licensee to produce a minimum amount of product, and to prevent the sort of parasitic behavior that HG is known for. 

[jenius]

We don't know the term. The Robotech folks are saying "another 35 years" but that's not really saying the contract specifies that length of time. The contract that was 'renewed' likely is much more significant than the original, completely open-ended contract that was so vague there were two court cases needed to clarify it. It's possible there's a 'use it or lose it' clause to it, I think that's how Kenner lost the Star Wars license. Basicallly, HG needs to provide at least $X in revenue to Tatsunoko each year. If revenues to HG are less than that, then HG needs to come out of pocket to pay the difference. The problem is there's no way for things to revert back to BW which is the only way any of this gets truly solved. 

[Bolt]

Supposedly 35 more years, but ,I believe the official response from KM was ,” I’ve been asked not to talk about that..”

Edited July 9, 2019 by Bolt

[Einherjar]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Supposedly 35 more years, but ,I believe the official response from KM was ,” I’ve been asked not to talk about that..”

Yeah, I call BS on this 35 more years thing.  Reps from the company have used these panels to say a lot of outrageous things regarding the franchise in the past.  Without those extra slides in their PowerPoint presentation, I bet the structure of this panel and the kind of news that actually came out of it would be no different than any other year they’ve done it.

[Bolt]

As indicated above, 35 more years is just rumor and talk..officially, we don’t know. Once the dust settles and this story returns to the back page,  perhaps more details will emerge. Or not. 

[Einherjar]

15 minutes ago, Bolt said:

As indicated above, 35 more years is just rumor and talk..officially, we don’t know. Once the dust settles and this story returns to the back page,  perhaps more details will emerge. Or not. 

From past experience and thinking ahead 6 months to a year from now, I think a lot of people here and social media got trolled big time.  May someone pie me in the face a la Tommy Yune if I’m wrong.

[HardlyNever]

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

As indicated above, 35 more years is just rumor and talk..officially, we don’t know. Once the dust settles and this story returns to the back page,  perhaps more details will emerge. Or not. 

Obligatory IANAL, but unless someone with reasonable ground challenges Tatsunoko or HG, I don't know that we'll ever publicly see the terms.  It is a private contract between two private companies (I believe Tatsu is private, I know HG is).  It looks like Tatsu is owned by several other companies, so maybe if one of them is public, someone could somehow get a copy of the exact agreement.  But I definitely don't know anything about Japanese corporate law, so... I dunno.

Anyhow, my point is that there is very little chance someone could compel HG to actually produce the terms for the public record.  It would take someone challenging them in court, which I don't know if that is going to happen at this point (or someone could challenge Tatsu in Japanese court).  Of course, HG could voluntarily disclose the terms, but I would say that is highly unlikely.  It could be a straight renewal of the existing terms, just with a new expiration date, but I doubt it.

I really don't want to just take HG's word for it, but I don't see a realistic way for us to learn the truth, atm.

Edit:  It looks like most of the companies that own Tatsunoko are public, so maybe someone who has stock in one of those companies could request the terms of this agreement.  At least they could in the US, but Japan could be completely different in that regard.  Maybe someone in Japan will actually get their hands on the contract.

Edited July 9, 2019 by HardlyNever