Macross Δ (Delta) Movie Gekijō no Walkūre (Passionate Walkure)

[Marzan]

I must confess that in many years being a Macross fan, I have never been more indifferent to a new film/series coming out than in this case. I had hoped for a sequel and move away from Windermere as the antagonist, but alas, a retelling it is. At least I hope they fix the pacing/storytelling issues that plagued the second half, and maybe come up with one or two positive plot changes. I also hope they limit the number of times the Knights say the word “wind” to under 100.

 

As a positive I must say that girls (and specially Kaname) look really foxy in the new movie poster.

[Valkyrie Driver]

1 hour ago, Marzan said:

I must confess that in many years being a Macross fan, I have never been more indifferent to a new film/series coming out than in this case. I had hoped for a sequel and move away from Windermere as the antagonist, but alas, a retelling it is. At least I hope they fix the pacing/storytelling issues that plagued the second half, and maybe come up with one or two positive plot changes. I also hope they limit the number of times the Knights say the word “wind” to under 100.

 

As a positive I must say that girls (and specially Kaname) look really foxy in the new movie poster.

I find myself agreeing with this. I'm disappointed that they decided to go this route, but at the same time, it's not unexpected. 

[Mommar]

Why are people so resistant to a retelling like this isn't something Macross hasn't done before?  DYRL, Plus, Frontier all did this.  Delta has a chance to be better and nobody wants that?

[Convectuoso]

What gives me hope about this movie is that there's no way for it to be worse than the series

[Zx31]

4 hours ago, arbit said:

 

If you can describe WHY you loved it, you might actually win some people over.

 

I've done so on a couple of occasions, but it only seems to invite responses about how I don't understand things or that I'm wrong and in the minority, so I just wanted to point out that some people actually really enjoy the show since many like to point out very frequently that they do not.

[Valkyrie Driver]

40 minutes ago, Zx31 said:

I've done so on a couple of occasions, but it only seems to invite responses about how I don't understand things or that I'm wrong and in the minority, so I just wanted to point out that some people actually really enjoy the show since many like to point out very frequently that they do not.

I'm actually curious. I enjoyed delta, even if it wasn't as good from a storytelling perspective as, say, Frontier. I don't know if I can actually put words to why I enjoyed it... I can say that there were a few things I didn't like, the pacing was one issue, and I didn't get enough MechaPorn. That's ok though, The movie will hopefully change that. 

@Zx31, If you want to have the discussion of why you liked Delta, we can take it to PM. I really want to know if we liked it for the same reasons, or if there's something that you saw that I didn't, or vise versa.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Valkyrie Driver

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Mommar said:

Why are people so resistant to a retelling like this isn't something Macross hasn't done before?  DYRL, Plus, Frontier all did this.  Delta has a chance to be better and nobody wants that?

Like I said back on the previous page, a lot of people were hoping for something resembling closure on the whole Windermere conflict.  Having the movie be the originally-planned conclusion to the TV series would've given them that. 

As it is, the Macross Delta series didn't really come to an end, it just sort of... stopped.  Once they'd blown up the Star Shrine, Heinz just ordered his troops to take their ball and go home.  That's a bit of a first for Macross, not having the conflict end along with the series.  So, naturally, since the TV series left its mecha-inclined viewers with great big giant robot blue balls and the original idea that was aired about the movie during planning of the series was for it to be the explosive climax to the series, a lot of people were hoping the movie would wrap up all the show's loose ends and maybe give us a couple of the nice, pretty dogfights the show resolutely refused to give us.

Instead, we're getting a compressed version of a story a lot of us felt was lacking in a lot of areas... so there's an understandable lack of excitement.

 

1 hour ago, Convectuoso said:

What gives me hope about this movie is that there's no way for it to be worse than the series

DON'T TEMPT FATE!

[arbit]

1 hour ago, Zx31 said:

I've done so on a couple of occasions, but it only seems to invite responses about how I don't understand things or that I'm wrong and in the minority, so I just wanted to point out that some people actually really enjoy the show since many like to point out very frequently that they do not.

That's the problem with the internet in general. But I think that this forum has improved drastically with banning bullies. Your opinion is valuable, don't be afraid to express yourself. 

40 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I'm actually curious. I enjoyed delta, even if it wasn't as good from a storytelling perspective as, say, Frontier. I don't know if I can actually put words to why I enjoyed it... I can say that there were a few things I didn't like, the pacing was one issue, and I didn't get enough MechaPorn. That's ok though, The movie will hopefully change that. 

@Zx31, If you want to have the discussion of why you liked Delta, we can take it to PM. I really want to know if we liked it for the same reasons, or if there's something that you saw that I didn't, or vise versa.

Certainly that discussion would be for another page, but with the new Delta movie, I am hoping that we can all learn to express our opinions without personal attacks.

 I REALLY enjoy hearing opposite well-thought out opinions from fans, its actually fun. 

 

[Zx31]

I may try to write something out at some point to try to better articulate my thoughts on it, but like Arbit says, that's for a separate thread.

[Marzan]

Do we know the personnel that will work on the film? Is it exactly the same crew as in the Delta tv series.

[eXis10z]

Perhaps there will be a conclusive and satisfactory end to the conflict in the movie.  

[Xigfrid]

Or they will mess things even more like what they did with the first Frontier movie, then they will need to make a second movie in a couple years to fix things a bit. 

[Valkyrie Driver]

10 hours ago, eXis10z said:

Perhaps there will be a conclusive and satisfactory end to the conflict in the movie.  

One can hope...

2 hours ago, Xigfrid said:

Or they will mess things even more like what they did with the first Frontier movie, then they will need to make a second movie in a couple years to fix things a bit. 

Shhhh!!! Hope, hope is what we need! Begone with that negativity!

[Seto Kaiba]

On 10/10/2017 at 2:41 PM, Marzan said:

Do we know the personnel that will work on the film? Is it exactly the same crew as in the Delta tv series.

Nothing announced, AFAIK... but given that this is your bog-standard Macross compilation flick, I'd say the staff will be mostly the same and that suggests that our only area of genuine concern is its writers.  If they're the same writers as the TV series, then pessimism is entirely warranted.

 

3 hours ago, Xigfrid said:

Or they will mess things even more like what they did with the first Frontier movie, then they will need to make a second movie in a couple years to fix things a bit. 

That was always supposed to be a duology though, so ending the first one in medias res was kind of intentional.

 

25 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Shhhh!!! Hope, hope is what we need! Begone with that negativity!

No, realism is what we need... too many folks went into Delta expecting Frontier 2.0 and ended up bitterly disappointed when the series fell far short of Frontier's lofty standard.  Blindly hoping for a massive improvement without a reason to suspect that said improvement will occur will only end in disappointment.

[Valkyrie Driver]

40 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

No, realism is what we need... too many folks went into Delta expecting Frontier 2.0 and ended up bitterly disappointed when the series fell far short of Frontier's lofty standard.  Blindly hoping for a massive improvement without a reason to suspect that said improvement will occur will only end in disappointment.

I mean, Hope for the best, expect the worst, I guess...

[no3Ljm]

On 10/8/2017 at 10:48 PM, azrael said:

Macross Delta Film Reveals Title, February 2018 Opening

Quote

... The film will recompile scenes from the television anime with new scenes to tell a different story, to maximize the story-telling potential of the shorter runtime but larger medium. It will have at least one new song. ...

This does not make me feel better.

On 10/9/2017 at 7:09 PM, Master Dex said:

Just wait... we get happy that they'll redo the battle scenes but what they really mean is they are replacing all the shots of planes scissoring into shots of them... scissoring in the opposite direction! lol

Yes! More and extended versions of scissor-ing in new revised animation. It's like Kawamori said before they shown the Delta series, more digfights than previous Macross series. Now we're going to get it. 

On 10/9/2017 at 6:51 PM, TMBounty_Hunter said:

Reboot of the battle scenes sounds good. The dogfights were by far the most disappointing part of the series.

New songs are also great news.

And the new Chisato Mita outfits are fantastic :3

^ Lovely. It's an eyecandy esp Kaname.  

I wouldn't mind a Deculture/Itasha version of this in DX VF-31A Kairos. More real estate to slap that on the back. I repeat, DX and not Model Kit. 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by no3Ljm

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, no3Ljm said:

Yes! More and extended versions of scissor-ing in new revised animation. 

... 

...

...

It's moments like this that remind me how very important context can be. 

Kawamori-sensei, please use more variety in the movie dogfights so we can stop abusing that word!

Edited October 12, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[no3Ljm]

38 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... 

...

...

It's moments like this that remind me how very important context can be. 

Kawamori-sense, please use more variety in the movie dogfights so we can stop abusing that word!

 

[azrael]

I allow 2 scissor patterns. No more. Every time we saw Messer vs. Keith, that’s all we saw. 

[Zx31]

It's odd to me that everyone only remembers the "lines in the air" parts of the combat because they didn't happen that often, and usually only after longer cockpit shots of Keith and Messer. If anything, I'd say you could make the argument that combat was too cockpit focused and that's coming from someone that didn't have an issue with it.

[kajnrig]

9 hours ago, no3Ljm said:

I wouldn't mind a Deculture/Itasha version of this in DX VF-31A Kairos.

Oh man, I didn't even consider Decultures of this. Maybe they'll finally release proper Kaname/Makina/Reina schemes. I would be all over those.

2 hours ago, Zx31 said:

It's odd to me that everyone only remembers the "lines in the air" parts of the combat because they didn't happen that often, and usually only after longer cockpit shots of Keith and Messer. If anything, I'd say you could make the argument that combat was too cockpit focused and that's coming from someone that didn't have an issue with it.

Cockpit shots, flying shots, one plane shooting at another shots, those are all bog standard. Whenever the combat did something out of the ordinary, it more often than not defaulted to The Scissors, which is why that's what people remember. And even then, they weren't particularly creative about it - it was always framed the same way, started the same way, ended the same way... It got boring quickly.

15 hours ago, Xigfrid said:

Or they will mess things even more like what they did with the first Frontier movie, then they will need to make a second movie in a couple years to fix things a bit. 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That was always supposed to be a duology though, so ending the first one in medias res was kind of intentional.

I hope they do a similar thing here. (I believe it's been confirmed to be a two-parter, yes?) Moving the story in a different direction little by little, enough so that the second movie is an almost entirely different thing from the show, can't possibly make for a worse story than what we got.

[Graham]

No, I don't think it has ever been mentioned as a two-parter.

[eXis10z]

Come on, the movie may turn out awesome and a few years later we will all look back and laugh at how worried we were for nothing.

There can be miracles
When you believe
Though hope is frail
It's hard to kill

 

[Master Dex]

To be fair, not only was the scissor maneuver overused... it was even lampshaded in the show with Messer critiquing other people on how to do the scissors better in one episode, lol. They practically forced us to pay attention to that one maneuver like it was the only one they knew.

[Valkyrie Driver]

So, on one hand the scissors is a pretty common air combat maneuver, but on the other, it's stasis in a fight. It's what you get when neither party can gain the advantage. We saw transition from flat scissors (horizontal) to rolling scissors (vertical), but no attempts to gain advantage. No High or Low yo-yo to try and break it, no lag displacement rolls to gain position. Heck, very seldom did they even try normal Macross stuff, like switching modes. 

The dogfights were rather boring.

[kajnrig]

It doesn't help that it's such an overused combat animation, too. You see it in everything from Gundam to Dragonball, the two combatants as streaks of light, crisscrossing against a static background.

[no3Ljm]

12 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Oh man, I didn't even consider Decultures of this. Maybe they'll finally release proper Kaname/Makina/Reina schemes. I would be all over those.

Me too. Well, as long that it's a DX Version and not a model kit, I will find a way to save money for that. But if it's for 'framing' purposes, then Fighter mode will be fine.

 

Still, up to this day, the best and memorable 'scissor-ing' I've seen came from Macross Plus. And that was way back in 1995. 22 years later, with all the advancement in doing animation with computer/3D graphics and all, they still can't beat what they did on that OAV. 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

15 hours ago, Zx31 said:

It's odd to me that everyone only remembers the "lines in the air" parts of the combat because they didn't happen that often, and usually only after longer cockpit shots of Keith and Messer.

That's because that's the vast majority of the actual combat we get to see... and it's done in such a way that we can't even see the actual fighters 90% of the time.  Just tiny dots crisscrossing over a vapor trail with random explosions. 

It's an impressive visual effect when used sparingly (e.g. Macross Plus), but in Macross Delta it was massively overused to the point that by the show's halfway point it felt like the show's staff folding their arms and refusing to show us the fight because they'd rather talk about Walkure.  There's no payoff at the end, so it's even less satisfying than Gamlin repeatedly blowing Gavil's FBz-99 away with the beam adapter, or Basara spraying the dogfight with speakerpods.

 

11 hours ago, eXis10z said:

Come on, the movie may turn out awesome and a few years later we will all look back and laugh at how worried we were for nothing.

 

While not strictly impossible, that is so wildly unlikely given that we know it's a compilation movie reusing material from the series that it might as well be impossible.

[frothymug]

 

On 10/12/2017 at 4:53 AM, Xigfrid said:

Or they will mess things even more like what they did with the first Frontier movie, then they will need to make a second movie in a couple years to fix things a bit. 

 

On 10/12/2017 at 8:18 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

That was always supposed to be a duology though, so ending the first one in medias res was kind of intentional.

I'm sure he knew that it was intended to be a two-parter. It's just that the first movie was kind of boring... outside of the very beginning and the very end. Movie #2 was a vast improvement over the first and, honestly, picked up a lot of the slack that the first movie was allowing in the storytelling and pacing.

[Focslain]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's because that's the vast majority of the actual combat we get to see... and it's done in such a way that we can't even see the actual fighters 90% of the time.  Just tiny dots crisscrossing over a vapor trail with random explosions. 

It's an impressive visual effect when used sparingly (e.g. Macross Plus), but in Macross Delta it was massively overused to the point that by the show's halfway point it felt like the show's staff folding their arms and refusing to show us the fight because they'd rather talk about Walkure.  There's no payoff at the end, so it's even less satisfying than Gamlin repeatedly blowing Gavil's FBz-99 away with the beam adapter, or Basara spraying the dogfight with speakerpods.

This might just be an issue in over-using combat to begin with. In a short series (M+) it's not a bad thing, but after a few fights it gets repetitive and there in lines the problem. 

Looking back the combat in Delta reminds me a bit much like the combat in Gundam Seed. By half way in the series I could tell what was happening in the scene by sound alone, even guessing what was going to come up next. Mind you I've seen the series (Seed) only twice with a few years between. 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Focslain said:

This might just be an issue in over-using combat to begin with. In a short series (M+) it's not a bad thing, but after a few fights it gets repetitive and there in lines the problem. 

Not likely.  The other Macross shows are as long or longer than Macross Delta and they all managed to have MORE combat than Macross Delta without it becoming boring and unduly repetitive.  What's making Delta's combat scenes boring and repetitive is a crippling lack of variety.  Delta Flight seems to have only two moves in its entire repertoire... The Scissors, and flying backwards in GERWALK as the railguns fire with the arms crossed to shoot Lilldrakens or missiles down.  Other than that, all of the combat scenes are just reaction shots of the cockpit or the occasional static shot of shooting at an indistinct target offscreen.

It's lazy choreography and writing, in short, not overuse of combat scenes.  An eminently fixable problem, if the show's creators had cared enough.

 

 

Quote

Looking back the combat in Delta reminds me a bit much like the combat in Gundam Seed. By half way in the series I could tell what was happening in the scene by sound alone, even guessing what was going to come up next. Mind you I've seen the series (Seed) only twice with a few years between. 

Same problem... Gundam SEED suffers from a punishing lack of variety in combat, compounded by its protagonist being one of the anime industry's most notorious Godmode Sues.  Combat itself isn't overused, it's just very formulaic and the formula has relatively few permutations to "Death by Kira".

Edited October 13, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

You know, Delta really needed a few over the shoulder camera angles, both looking fore and aft, with the background moving rather than the plane. This couple with some variety in maneuvering would have been nice.  

Give me a transformation to gerwalk and back with a nice lag displacement. 

Just once, I'd like to see a macross production animation director go to the JASDF and ask for a technical consultant. 

[kajnrig]

1 hour ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

You know, Delta really needed a few over the shoulder camera angles, both looking fore and aft, with the background moving rather than the plane. This couple with some variety in maneuvering would have been nice.  

Give me a transformation to gerwalk and back with a nice lag displacement. 

Just once, I'd like to see a macross production animation director go to the JASDF and ask for a technical consultant. 

...didn't M+ visit the actual Edwards AFB to get reference photos and fly in fighters?

[network19]

Hopefully the movie has a complete rewrite and finally gives Valks weight again.

[Vepariga]

I'm all for the movie personally, i hope it finds a good balance between the pop group and the valk action. 

Movies tend to do more impressive dogfighting, but posters showing just Walkyre and no other characters is abit "what" but I'm for giving it a chance atleast.

tbh it will probably be better than the series since they need to compress and tighten the story better,trim the fat for a more exciting experience.