Robotech and REMIX by Titan Comics

[jeniusornome]

@Seto Kaiba I didn’t know about the manga. When I watched through Delta I kept wondering when they were going to actually explain the conflict and even when they did it didn’t quite all make sense to me. It still doesn’t after a second watch through.

But I just assumed that what they really wanted was to push Walküre above all other aspects of the show and everything else was given just a very shallow treatment at best. 
 

I thought it amusing that the dimensional bomb in Delta was an Orguss reference (I assume it was), and Delta was full of other odd references (like Macross II stuff). It was fun to watch but it didn’t really work for me.

That said, if we never find out where they were going with the dimensionally lost Dana, maybe Jeanne Francaix can make a cameo somewhere in the next Delta movie and then we’ll all know it was Kei’s fault anyhow. 

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

It did shatter HG's connection to reality apparently.

HG's Robotech staff were never in touch with reality.

FFS, Carl Macek thought L. Ron Hubbard was quality sci-fi and named a character in one of his sequel concepts for him.  That stunning failure to connect with reality is how so many obviously terrible ideas keep getting approved, like Robotech Remix!

 

2 hours ago, JohnMc said:

Its sad that with the advancement of CGI and other special effects Hollywood would still find a way to screw up Macross/Robotech. I was on an anime board they asked about the possibility of a live action Black Lagoon movie and I said that Hollywood would find a way to screw it up.

It's not sad, it's just predictable.

Hollywood has never been good at little things like subtlety and pacing, and directors who understand them and how to use them properly and consistently are incredibly rare.  The rare occasions where Hollywood actually produces something of artistic merit seem to be more by luck than good judgement.  Spectacle sells, far more than substance, so when the story calls for thought-provoking introspection (like Ghost in the Shell) or even just effective use of exposition they're up sh*t creek.

 

 

1 hour ago, jeniusornome said:

@Seto Kaiba I didn’t know about the manga. When I watched through Delta I kept wondering when they were going to actually explain the conflict and even when they did it didn’t quite all make sense to me. It still doesn’t after a second watch through.

It's a real problem with the series... the Windermereans are an extremely sympathetic antagonist, but all their character development was left in a manga.

 

1 hour ago, jeniusornome said:

I thought it amusing that the dimensional bomb in Delta was an Orguss reference (I assume it was), [...]

Nah, I've seen nothing to indicate that it was an Orguss reference... the dimensional warheads that were introduced in Macross Frontier don't really warp reality, they're just hyper-intensified fold effects.

 

1 hour ago, jeniusornome said:

That said, if we never find out where they were going with the dimensionally lost Dana, maybe Jeanne Francaix can make a cameo somewhere in the next Delta movie and then we’ll all know it was Kei’s fault anyhow. 

Robotech Remix seems to have gone with a Dana from another universe as a way to shift the story's focus without having to do a timeskip like the one in the TV series.

That and it lets them write a version of Dana who isn't retarded, which is a big plus since she was far and away Robotech's most hated character.

[Bolt]

8 hours ago, Convectuoso said:

Some of us hope the same for Macross The First

The Macross pod cast crew just dropped the news..Macross The First is officially shuttered indefinitely. So says Mikimoto San..

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

It did shatter HG's connection to reality apparently.

Every time Macross rolls out a new series or OVA

[Podtastic]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

the Windermereans are potentially one of the most complex and interesting antagonists Macross has had

Well if they had cool mecha, ships and troopers maybe. Pity they don't.

Even their short lifespan is not a unique idea -  Kamandi had that concept back in the 70's.

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

hostile aliens of unknown origin

Would be fascinating.

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

they're a former New UN Government member world who were motivated to war by economic, political, and religious reasons.  

They're a sideshow.

All this would work for Gundam where they amp up the action and mecha focus, and its all just humans anyway.

But this is Macross where I expect more.

 

[Bolt]

2 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

Well if they had cool mecha, ships and troopers maybe. Pity they don't.

The SV-262 is pretty awesome. And as a toy has some thoughtful engineering involved. Needless to say, far more interesting and creative than anything Robowreck related 

 

6 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

But this is Macross where I expect more

An interesting perspective from some Macross fans.. Macross shouldn't always be what you expected..

[Podtastic]

35 minutes ago, Bolt said:

The SV-262 is pretty awesome.

It maybe, but its too much of a valkyrie analogue for my tastes. I prefer enemy mecha that are very different to the good guy stuff.

 

35 minutes ago, Bolt said:

far more interesting and creative than anything Robowreck related

Given that RT includes Southern Cross (Bioroids) and Mospaeda (Inbit Gurab, Gosu) and SDFM (Regults, Quaedluun etc) I surely dont agree.

But forget Robotech. Theyre not as interesting as the Marduk, the Zentradi or the Vajra (pity the Vajra potential was wasted so quickly).

Sure unexpected is fine, I just want to be overwhelmed rather than underwhelmed next time.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Podtastic

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Well if they had cool mecha, ships and troopers maybe. Pity they don't.

The complaint about their ships I could understand, since they're a light facelift of the Macross Galaxy fleet ships... but the Draken III's a pretty cool design.

 

5 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Even their short lifespan is not a unique idea -  Kamandi had that concept back in the 70's.

It doesn't have to be unique.  There are very few truly unique ideas due to the sheer volume of creatives working these days.  What it has to be is presented in an interesting and/or compelling way.

 

5 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Would be fascinating.

It's overdone, and it's very hard to fully develop an antagonist like that in a way that makes them compelling.

For a good example, look no farther than MOSPEADA's Inbit.  They're a race of unknown aliens from an unknown homeworld who invade Earth for reasons unknown... and they're BORING AS F*CK because it turns out an antagonist who is so alien you can't relate to them doesn't connect with the audience very well, especially when much of their menace is Informed Ability.

That's a big part of why Robotech is so hung up on Macross, and why Titan Comics' Robotech Remix is basically a bad Macross fic that pays only the most token acknowledgement to the rest of Robotech.  The inscrutable Invid are a boring, lifeless antagonist that would be more at home in a sci-fi/horror b-movie or one of the old 50's serials... especially once you factor in the scenery-chewing Ming the Merciless style ham the Invid Regent brought to the story.  The Robotech Masters are uninteresting to Robotech fans for a similar reason... if they look human, but don't react to anything in a human way, they're just as boring as if they were a faceless alien menace because their one response is dull surprise.  So Robotech fans are instead hung up on the Zentradi because they're the most human-like and therefore the most relatable.

 

5 hours ago, Podtastic said:

They're a sideshow.

Every Macross story is essentially a sideshow... we're seeing what's going on on the periphery of any given war, because the focus is on the people rather than the conflict itself, and in many of the later shows the conflicts are also sideshows because they're minor wars out in remote regions of the galaxy.

 

 

5 hours ago, Bolt said:

Needless to say, far more interesting and creative than anything Robowreck related 

Y'see, that was the one area where I was honestly curious to see what Titan Comics would be able to pull off...

Creating original mechanical designs is hard enough on its own, but creating new designs that fit seamlessly into an existing setting or transforming mecha are a lot harder.  In Titan's previous Robotech comic, their "original" take on the VF-1 Valkyrie turned out to be someone's Macross fanart that they'd used commercially without permission and switched back to the classic Kawamori VF-1 after receiving a lot of negative feedback about the VF-0-inspired fan design.  Robotech Remix stuck with the VF-1 and introduced MOSPEADA concept art as a "new" mecha without even changing the name (the Vector fighter), but they'd hinted that the VF-1's replacement in-universe was going to defy Robotech's usual progression by sidelining the "Alpha" (MOSPEADA's Legioss) in favor of the YF-4 (Macross's VF-X-4).

That put Titan Comics in an interesting position.  They'd established that the next main fighter in their version of Robotech was going to be the VF-4... but Titan Comics can't use the VF-4 from Macross, and they can only use the fighter mode of the VF-X-4 from Macross's original series.  It's questionable if they could use the transformation that Ninja Division and Palladium Books concocted, which means Titan could've been stuck in the position of having to having to create their own original transformation for a VF-X-4 based VF-4.  That would have been mildly interesting to see.

[jeniusornome]

Didn't I see something a long ways back where Tommy Yune or someone at HG designed an original transformation/design of the VF-4?

Can't find anything on it now aside from really obvious fanart, but I could swear there was an "official" design shown at some point and then never used. As I recall it was much more derivative of the VF-1 than the substantial change the Macross VF-4 was.

[Seto Kaiba]

28 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

Didn't I see something a long ways back where Tommy Yune or someone at HG designed an original transformation/design of the VF-4?

You may be thinking of the one that Ninja Division and Palladium Books put together for the failed Robotech miniatures game Robotech RPG Tactics.  (Pictured below)

Ninja Division's design for the "YF-4" bears a fairly strong resemblance to Big West's original VF-4 Battroid design that Koichi Ohata and Kazumi Fujita did for Macross: Eternal Love Song... though that's almost certainly coincidental given how obscure that game is and how little line art of the VF-4 Siren exists.

Tommy Yune chickened out on the idea of designing a transformation for Shoji Kawamori's VF-X-4 design - which Robotech calls the YF-4 - in the Robotech reboot's flagship limited comic series Robotech: From the Stars.  He did have the "YF-4" make a brief appearance in the first issue of that comic in fighter mode, and excused his inability to come up with an original alt-mode for it by having it run into mechanical problems when it attempted to transform.

 

28 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

Can't find anything on it now aside from really obvious fanart, but I could swear there was an "official" design shown at some point and then never used. As I recall it was much more derivative of the VF-1 than the substantial change the Macross VF-4 was.

As far as I know, the one and only serious effort Robotech made to come up with a transformation for Shoji Kawamori's VF-X-4 is Ninja Division's design pictured above... which, IIRC, never made it to production in the Robotech RPG Tactics game because it was part of the cancelled Wave 2 backer rewards.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[jeniusornome]

That looks a lot like the one I was thinking about. Probably the same, and if it was related to palladium and a kickstarter I probably just assumed it was “official” or something. Thanks!

[Podtastic]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It doesn't have to be unique.  There are very few truly unique ideas due to the sheer volume of creatives working these days.  What it has to be is presented in an interesting and/or compelling way.

This is true.

 

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's overdone, and it's very hard to fully develop an antagonist like that in a way that makes them compelling.

For a good example, look no farther than MOSPEADA's Inbit.  They're a race of unknown aliens from an unknown homeworld who invade Earth for reasons unknown... and they're BORING AS F*CK because it turns out an antagonist who is so alien you can't relate to them doesn't connect with the audience very well, especially when much of their menace is Informed Ability.

That's a big part of why Robotech is so hung up on Macross, and why Titan Comics' Robotech Remix is basically a bad Macross fic that pays only the most token acknowledgement to the rest of Robotech.  The inscrutable Invid are a boring, lifeless antagonist that would be more at home in a sci-fi/horror b-movie or one of the old 50's serials... especially once you factor in the scenery-chewing Ming the Merciless style ham the Invid Regent brought to the story.  The Robotech Masters are uninteresting to Robotech fans for a similar reason... if they look human, but don't react to anything in a human way, they're just as boring as if they were a faceless alien menace because their one response is dull surprise.  So Robotech fans are instead hung up on the Zentradi because they're the most human-like and therefore the most relatable.

I don't find the Zentraedi, the Invid or the Tirolians (using Robotech terms/spelling here) boring at all.

Aside from those aliens (if that's what they even were) from Skyline, there hasn't been a (humanoid) alienin any sci-fi franchise that I've encountered which wasn't really just a thinly disguised human. Their more like foreigners than actual aliens really .Even insectoid aliens are - to a certain extent - relatable as we have insects on Earth.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, Podtastic said:

I don't find the Zentraedi, the Invid or the Tirolians (using Robotech terms/spelling here) boring at all.

Well, as we've indicated many times before, your tastes are somewhat unusual.

I know a lot of Robotech fans find the Robotech Masters (SC: "Zor") rather dull as antagonists go.  This is, in no small part, due to the fact that they're humanoid but they don't react to things in a human-like way.  Their extreme stoicism, combined with the very poorly planned and paced original story, meant that they only really react to things two ways: bland smug "we knew that was going to happen" or DULL SURPRISE.  It isn't until the very end, right where Southern Cross's writers had started to panic and realize they hadn't developed them or their motivations at all yet, where they started to behave in a less robotic manner but by then it was WAY too late.  The fact that Robotech's rewriters couldn't settle on whether a lot of them were clones, androids, or both didn't help.

That, I suspect, is why Titan Comics seems to have been trying to make them more like the closest Macross equivalent... the Mardook.

[tekering]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Robotech's rewriters couldn't settle on whether a lot of them were clones, androids, or both

I always assumed they just didn't know the difference.  They obviously didn't know what the word "android" meant.  

[Seto Kaiba]

23 minutes ago, tekering said:

I always assumed they just didn't know the difference.  They obviously didn't know what the word "android" meant.  

I think they probably did, since they introduced an android character in the main cast of Robotech II: the Sentinels... who was meant, originally, to be a tie-in to Robotech: the Movie as a mechanical body for EVE from Megazone 23.  That connection got dropped after Tatsunoko torpedoed the idea of making Robotech: the Movie a Macross Saga sidestory.  (T.R. Edwards was originally supposed to be the same character as B.D. from Megazone 23 as well.)

[tekering]

Actually, upon further reflection, the misuse of "android" in Robotech dialogue was probably a deliberate choice, just as "robot tanks" was a deliberate change made in the scripts for Star Blazers.  A lot less violence would need to be cut for American television if the censors assumed the enemy combatants were merely machines (regardless of visual evidence to the contrary).

[TehPW]

On 3/23/2020 at 11:16 PM, Bolt said:

The Macross pod cast crew just dropped the news..Macross The First is officially shuttered indefinitely. So says Mikimoto San..

Every time Macross rolls out a new series or OVA

Is that because of Macross's diminishing interest per fan base or is that a problem that affects manga in general (it certainly seems to be a major problem for comics in the States)?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, tekering said:

Actually, upon further reflection, the misuse of "android" in Robotech dialogue was probably a deliberate choice, just as "robot tanks" was a deliberate change made in the scripts for Star Blazers.  A lot less violence would need to be cut for American television if the censors assumed the enemy combatants were merely machines (regardless of visual evidence to the contrary).

The original Southern Cross's take on Bioroid pilots would certainly have been way too dark for Robotech's intended audience... it's more palatable to have our heroes gunning down an army of unliving robots than a bunch of captured and brainwashed civilians from their own side.

 

36 minutes ago, TehPW said:

Is that because of Macross's diminishing interest per fan base or is that a problem that affects manga in general (it certainly seems to be a major problem for comics in the States)?

Nah, smart money says the single biggest factor is Mikimoto's inability to meet deadlines... he's overcommitted.

[Einherjar]

57 minutes ago, TehPW said:

Is that because of Macross's diminishing interest per fan base or is that a problem that affects manga in general (it certainly seems to be a major problem for comics in the States)?

I think it was because Mikimoto’s talent was being utilized and appreciated for other projects like Kabaneri of the Iron Fortress.  Compared to this comic book, at least The First did not have so much pressure riding on it in the grand scheme of things, took itself too seriously, or was promoted as something that would forever change the status quo of the universe.  The Macross franchise would not end abruptly if it just stopped.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Einherjar

[jeniusornome]

Man I forgot all about Megazone 23 and the Robotech movie thing they did. That was a mess.

[JB0]

9 hours ago, Einherjar said:

I think it was because Mikimoto’s talent was being utilized and appreciated for other projects like Kabaneri of the Iron Fortress.  Compared to this comic book, at least The First did not have so much pressure riding on it in the grand scheme of things, took itself too seriously, or was promoted as something that would forever change the status quo of the universe.  The Macross franchise would not end abruptly if it just stopped.

Given it has "just stopped" twice now, I think this cancellation is just a formal announcement of what we've known for a while now: Mikimoto ain't drawin' Macross the First, and hasn't been for some time.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, jeniusornome said:

Man I forgot all about Megazone 23 and the Robotech movie thing they did. That was a mess.

Yeah... it was such a mess even Carl Macek washed his hands of it.  

It was kind of surprising to see Titan Comics referenced it in their last Robotech series, however briefly.  Especially since Harmony Gold doesn't have any rights to Megazone 23 anymore and that could be considered copyright infringement.  They seem to have left all of those dreadful cameos in the previous series, thank goodness.  Literally nobody wanted a reminder that Robotech 3000 was a thing.

[Podtastic]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The original Southern Cross's take on Bioroid pilots would certainly have been way too dark for Robotech's intended audience... it's more palatable to have our heroes gunning down an army of unliving robots than a bunch of captured and brainwashed civilians from their own side.

Being too useless to field their own military also makes them less interesting as a faction.

 

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The fact that Robotech's rewriters couldn't settle on whether a lot of them were clones, androids, or both didn't help.

I always thought that it was meant to be the Southern Cross scientists who couldn't determine at first what they were, perhaps being confused by alien biomechanical enhancements. On the other hand them being androids may have been a propaganda line the SC high command wanted pushed.

Clearly they were clones and the pilots had enhancements to enable them to interface with their Bioroids. I think Dana made the point that it would be redundant to have an (inorganic) machine piloting another machine.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Podtastic

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Being too useless to field their own military also makes them less interesting as a faction.

It would, admittedly, have made more sense in context if Southern Cross hadn't been cancelled 16 episodes short of completion.

That said, the Robotech fandom also seems to find the Bioroids as uninteresting as the rest of the Southern Cross mecha.  Their unusual control system is all they've really got going for them, and other than that they're so weak that several are shown being taken down by small arms fire.

 

9 hours ago, Podtastic said:

I always thought that it was meant to be the Southern Cross scientists who couldn't determine at first what they were, perhaps being confused by alien biomechanical enhancements. On the other hand them being androids may have been a propaganda line the SC high command wanted pushed.

That may be a viable in-universe explanation, though the truth is the writers just weren't on the same page... because multiple episodes were being rewritten concurrently and nobody had the time to check the work of their colleagues to ensure they were producing a consistent product.  That's also why a number of characters are referred to by incorrect ranks in the early Masters Saga episodes.

 

9 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Clearly they were clones and the pilots had enhancements to enable them to interface with their Bioroids. I think Dana made the point that it would be redundant to have an (inorganic) machine piloting another machine.

Maybe, but this is Robotech and good lord does it ever have a complexity addiction.

[pengbuzz]

On 3/26/2020 at 11:16 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

It would, admittedly, have made more sense in context if Southern Cross hadn't been cancelled 16 episodes short of completion.

That said, the Robotech fandom also seems to find the Bioroids as uninteresting as the rest of the Southern Cross mecha.  Their unusual control system is all they've really got going for them, and other than that they're so weak that several are shown being taken down by small arms fire.

 

That may be a viable in-universe explanation, though the truth is the writers just weren't on the same page... because multiple episodes were being rewritten concurrently and nobody had the time to check the work of their colleagues to ensure they were producing a consistent product.  That's also why a number of characters are referred to by incorrect ranks in the early Masters Saga episodes.

 

Maybe, but this is Robotech and good lord does it ever have a complexity addiction.

Bioroids... not very strong but a pain in the a**. Just like Hemorrhoids...

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Bioroids... not very strong but a pain in the a**. Just like Hemorrhoids...

Bioroids... not very strong, and a mediocre experience for all involved.  Just like Smirnoff Ice.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Bioroids... not very strong, and a mediocre experience for all involved.  Just like Smirnoff Ice.

Isn't Smirnoff what one would need to drink to get through a marathon of Southern Cross?

[Bolt]

30% thc to your dome.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Isn't Smirnoff what one would need to drink to get through a marathon of Southern Cross?

Smirnoff is practically tapwater... you'd need something a LOT stronger to get through Southern Cross, more like everclear.

[pengbuzz]

10 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Smirnoff is practically tapwater... you'd need something a LOT stronger to get through Southern Cross, more like everclear.

Graves 180% Proof...would that do?

[Seto Kaiba]

So... I think it's safe to say Robotech Remix #5 did not, in fact, come out this past week.

Given that the comic book industry in general seems to be circling the drain with Diamond Comic Distributors shut down due to the pandemic and the frankly hilarious idiocy of the big two making it worse, I wonder if Titan will even bother attempting to continue their Robotech license of if the losses incurred during this period will prompt them to shed the licenses in their catalog that aren't turning significant profits.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So... I think it's safe to say Robotech Remix #5 did not, in fact, come out this past week.

Given that the comic book industry in general seems to be circling the drain with Diamond Comic Distributors shut down due to the pandemic and the frankly hilarious idiocy of the big two making it worse, I wonder if Titan will even bother attempting to continue their Robotech license of if the losses incurred during this period will prompt them to shed the licenses in their catalog that aren't turning significant profits.

If they want to survive, some dead weight's gotta be tossed. And nothing is deader  than a comic based on a half-assed attempt to revive an 80's pastiche of anime trying to tell the Macross story without using Macross.

It's kind of like Pizza hut trying to stay in business without serving pizza.

[JohnMc]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So... I think it's safe to say Robotech Remix #5 did not, in fact, come out this past week.

Given that the comic book industry in general seems to be circling the drain with Diamond Comic Distributors shut down due to the pandemic and the frankly hilarious idiocy of the big two making it worse, I wonder if Titan will even bother attempting to continue their Robotech license of if the losses incurred during this period will prompt them to shed the licenses in their catalog that aren't turning significant profits.

Yep. It didn't come out this week.  It was pulled from release to be re solicited at a later date.  Some re-writes or re-draws or something happened. I was wondering how they crap on Max again this issue.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, JohnMc said:

Yep. It didn't come out this week.  It was pulled from release to be re solicited at a later date.  Some re-writes or re-draws or something happened. I was wondering how they crap on Max again this issue.

Amusingly, it was on "will resolicit" status before Diamond shut down.

My money's on the comic having been the victim of a stealth cancellation.

[JohnMc]

45 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Amusingly, it was on "will resolicit" status before Diamond shut down.

My money's on the comic having been the victim of a stealth cancellation.

 That's definitely the most likely thing. Titan has ghosted everybody who has asked about it. The only mention of Robotech on their website is the TPB for 1-4 of Remix and vol1 of Robotech Masters in Oct. 

[Bolt]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

My money's on the comic having been the victim of a stealth cancellation.

Oh well. It's back to this then..