Calibre wings robotech

[jvmacross]

9 minutes ago, Gerli said:

https://sp.macross.jp/news/?id=1293&fbclid=IwAR2PldgcO_pQ59RjLTk4tkE6lN5UF1C5Hw8DWkWTapzZ0jS8h8gWySBMtOo

 

The response from Calibre Wings:

Macross fans/collectors/customers outside of Japan are technically irrelevant to BW.....just like BW's unsolicited "warning" should be to anyone outside of Japan.....I also find it hypocritical for BW to have posted an English translation of their "warning"...

I 100% support Calibre Wings on this release...hopefully they can get it out to the wild without any problems

 

 

 

[Gerli]

8 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Macross fans/collectors/customers outside of Japan are technically irrelevant to BW.....just like BW's unsolicited "warning" should be to anyone outside of Japan.....I also find it hypocritical for BW to have posted an English translation of their "warning"...

Maybe times are changing...?

[jvmacross]

5 minutes ago, Gerli said:

Maybe times are changing...?

yeah, but into what?  More "legit" licensed Macross for everyone, anywhere....or more instances of unlicensed Macross in leiu of the lack of licensed product?

Per CalWings, it seemed they attempted to get a "license" from BW.....why wouldn't they have granted it?  They have in the past.  Maybe they do not like CalWings recent involvement with HG, which would be petty, especially since they seem to be so concerned about the "fans"....

[Gerli]

Oh, I didn't see that there is already a thread about this... sorry guys 

[technoblue]

1 minute ago, Gerli said:

Oh, I didn't see that there is already a thread about this... sorry guys 

No big deal. There's good info in both threads. If the mods think the two threads should get merged together, I'm sure it will happen eventually.

[seti88]

I created this thread in the anime section, well cos Calwings were tying up with HG. Then threads started as well in the toys section.

Guess it reflects the muddy waters of BW/HG and licencees.

[AN/ALQ128]

Calibrewings tried posting a photo of one of their employees posing with Kawamori as if to make it seem like there's a sliver of legitimacy to their blatant copyright infringement, who're they trying to fool here?

https://twitter.com/paramilipic/status/1284376052081373185

[Keith]

These guys are theive's, no better than HG. Why support that?

[Sanity is Optional]

They're nowhere near as bad as HG.

Also even if it's not official, still ought to go in the Macross section, at least for the Shin F14. Same as the knock-off Yamarcadias.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 minutes ago, Sanity is Optional said:

They're nowhere near as bad as HG.

Strictly speaking, it's actually worse than HG... what HG does is undeniably dickish, but just as undeniably within the letter of the law, if not its spirit.

What Calibre Wings is doing is criminal in the most stringently literal sense of the word.  If they keep doubling down on this, it will probably get them sued since they've made public statements that this is explicitly being done without the approval of Big West, who are defending the Macross IP with increasing vigilance as they expand the brand into the international marketplace.

I'm at a bit of a loss to explain why Calibre Wings picked this hill to die on.  They're not some East Asian toy bootlegging firm - or at least they weren't prior to this - these guys know how licensing works.  They had to know that they were likely to get sued over this if they proceeded without a license, and that it could have long-term consequences for the survivability of their business since any lawsuit would almost certainly end in a ruling against them.

 

6 hours ago, jvmacross said:

Per CalWings, it seemed they attempted to get a "license" from BW.....why wouldn't they have granted it?  They have in the past.  Maybe they do not like CalWings recent involvement with HG, which would be petty, especially since they seem to be so concerned about the "fans"....

It really doesn't matter... Big West is not obliged to grant licenses to anyone who asks.  That doesn't change the fact that they own the Macross IP including Macross Zero, and are well within their rights to protect that IP through litigation if need be.

Mind you, there are dozens of possibilities.  Calibre Wings could've just not given them sufficient time to respond before going off half-cocked.  Maybe Calibre Wings was unwilling to pay a suitable license fee.  Maybe Big West couldn't grant their request due to their request conflicting with the terms of pre-existing licenses held by other licensees like Arcadia or Bandai.  Maybe it's because Calibre Wings does business with Harmony Gold.  We don't know, but they're not exactly obligated to explain their reasons to us either.  If Calibre Wings doesn't back down and Big West sues, we'll at least find out from the court documents.

[seti88]

1 hour ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

Calibrewings tried posting a photo of one of their employees posing with Kawamori as if to make it seem like there's a sliver of legitimacy to their blatant copyright infringement, who're they trying to fool here?

https://twitter.com/paramilipic/status/1284376052081373185

That’s not just one of their employees.

*popcorn eating* 

Edited July 18, 2020 by seti88

[technoblue]

SMH. Posting that photo to Twitter was a really bad idea. 

[jenius]

I love my master made Sdf-1 also... And I've seen excellent 3p transformers. The level of indignation on this site over, again, something that in no way negatively impact anything a BW licensee was doing, is quite amusing.

[Einherjar]

Did Calibre Wings sell Robotech products at one point?  At the time I am posting this, according to their website they list nothing.  There's a placeholder for zero products under that franchise.

https://calibrewings.calibresmodels.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=59

[Gerli]

42 minutes ago, Einherjar said:

Did Calibre Wings sell Robotech products at one point?  At the time I am posting this, according to their website they list nothing.  There's a placeholder for zero products under that franchise.

https://calibrewings.calibresmodels.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=59

 

Yes, they sold Hikaru Rick Hunter and Focker F-14's (?)

Edited July 18, 2020 by Gerli

[jenius]

1 minute ago, Gerli said:

 

Yes, they sold Hikaru and Focker F-14's (?)

They did, not sure why they're not there as SOLD OUT at the moment. Maybe they predate the site. 

[renegadeleader1]

Okay I did some legal thinking about this situation, and wether you like it or not BW can't do a damned thing to CalWings about this design(albeit with a couple of small caveats).

 

Big West doesn't own the rights to the F-14 Tomcat. Northop-Grumman does.

 

Calwings does indeed have a license from Norththrop Grumman to produce models of the F-14 Tomcat.

Big West doesn't own the copyright to the kite symbol or most of the markings(per the patent office any claim they had was abandoned years ago) outside of Japan Harmony Gold does.

 

Calwings does indeed have a license to produce models based on Robotech from Harmony Gold, and can use the markings they own.

 

There for they can essentially create a F-14 Tomcat with an exact identical scheme and markings as the one seen in Macross Zero. What they can't do is make reference to characters, events, and title of the show in question nor can they sell it in Japan. Those are the caveats. Hence the wording they were creating their in their own words a "fictional/fantasy" model of their Dreamcats line and the antagonistic "not MacrossZero" hastags. Big West knows they can't stop them hence their effort into actually putting out their bootleg announcement.

[Seto Kaiba]

35 minutes ago, renegadeleader1 said:

Okay I did some legal thinking about this situation, and wether you like it or not BW can't do a damned thing to CalWings about this design(albeit with a couple of small caveats).

Eh... some of what you came up with is correct, but your conclusion is wrong.

 

Quote

There for they can essentially create a F-14 Tomcat with an exact identical scheme and markings as the one seen in Macross Zero. What they can't do is make reference to characters, events, and title of the show in question nor can they sell it in Japan. Those are the caveats. Hence the wording they were creating their in their own words a "fictional/fantasy" model of their Dreamcats line and the antagonistic "not MacrossZero" hastags. Big West knows they can't stop them hence their effort into actually putting out their bootleg announcement.

You've missed a couple really important key points here.

You see, Big West's use of the Grumman F-14 Tomcat design in Macross Zero does not give them any copyright claim on the F-14's design itself, but this toy still uses Big West's copyrighted intellectual property.

Calibre Wings is using the Macross Zero character designs for the pilot figures, as well as the names of Macross Zero characters in the toy's paintjob.  THAT'S clear-cut infringement of Big West-owned copyrights.  They also still used Macross Zero footage and the title Macross Zero to promote the toy.  That's also something Big West can sue them for, btw, as Calibre Wings does not have their consent to use Macross Zero in a commercial context period.  The real kicker is that Calibre Wings publicly stated that this was an unauthorized Macross Zero product in a public forum (on Twitter), meaning they have literally zero chance of getting a lawsuit from Big West dismissed because they confessed to the crime publicly and stated their intent to continue with their criminal activity  Not being in Japan doesn't exempt Calibre Wings from international copyright law.

The only thing I can think of is that they're hoping they're too small a target for Big West to bother suing, becuase they've done just about everything possible to ensure Big West could sue them and win on summary judgement from their own confession.

Where this REALLY gets problematic is that, if they claim they're using the UN Forces roundel and "UN Spacy" markings under their license with Harmony Gold... now Harmony Gold is a party to this lawsuit, and Harmony Gold could also sue them.  In the past, HG has filed lawsuits against other companies (e.g. Catalyst Game Labs) at the behest of Macross's Japanese owners.  HG could sue them on Big West's behalf for infringing upon the UN Spacy logo and name to prevent itself from being blamed in court for having authorized this bootleg (which they almost certainly didn't... their lawyers would have shat out their own hearts if they'd known).

Edited July 18, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

Titan Comics tried the clueless fanboy defense already, and look where their project ended up.

[jvmacross]

5 hours ago, jenius said:

I love my master made Sdf-1 also... And I've seen excellent 3p transformers. The level of indignation on this site over, again, something that in no way negatively impact anything a BW licensee was doing, is quite amusing.

I agree.  What's worse is the selective usage of said indignation.  It seems open condemnation on the "inappropriate" use of any IP is seemingly dependant on the party misusing the IP.  

[technoblue]

49 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

I agree.  What's worse is the selective usage of said indignation.  It seems open condemnation on the "inappropriate" use of any IP is seemingly dependant on the party misusing the IP.  

It isn't all that unusual. The Transformers community has the same rifts dividing members and they run along the same exact spectrum as the one characterized in this very thread. You have hard line fans who collect only those items with an official Hasbro or Takara license, you have fans that want to really stretch their dollar and are keen for KOs, you have fans who mill about in the grey area with third-party figures, and have those who cross between all three mixing and matching to get the collections they like (this is me, I guess). 

Although the variables for each consumer can get rather personal, they don't necessarily have to be classified as a negative. 

It's just different strokes for different folks.

With Hasbro and Takara, I think there is a key difference that's being glossed over in the comparison to Big West: the ownership of their IP is simply stronger worldwide. This is evident by the fact that HasTak is able to shut down whole KO factories just like Bandai. I don't doubt Big West would like to be able to do the same, but is feeling a disadvantage for past missteps with HG. The strict interpretation of what's official could be part of their strategy to repair the international brand. 

Of course, that last bit is all "glass half full" speculation.

Edited July 18, 2020 by technoblue

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

I agree.  What's worse is the selective usage of said indignation.  It seems open condemnation on the "inappropriate" use of any IP is seemingly dependant on the party misusing the IP.  

Eh, I think that's more on you guys for failing to take into account the differences in scale and context involved... as well as whether or not the IP owner is OK with it.

There's a world of difference between ultra-low volume amateur fanworks like doujinshi and garage kits and mass-produced, factory-made bootlegs.  Fanworks like doujinshi or garage garage kits usually get an implicit pass from the IP owners because they're amateur fanworks made in extremely low quantities, with near-nonexistent profit margins, no marketing, and extremely limited (often single day) availability.  People who make doujinshi or garage kits aren't doing it to get rich, they're barely making enough to cover the costs of the low-volume labor of love they produced.  IP owners usually (but not always) give that kind of activity a pass on the grounds that nobody's making any real money on it, it encourages aspiring artists and model makers to hone their craft with an eye towards going pro, and in some cases it's been demonstrated to actually drive sales of legitimate product.  Even then, there have been concerted efforts to legitimate that kind of thing with one-day licenses for events like Comiket.

Bootleggers, by contrast, aren't in for the love of the game... they're specifically doing what they do to turn a significant profit and they're doing it on a rather different scale.  These are nominal or actual professionals who set out to either copy an existing product with a specific goal of undercutting the legitimate product or are using an IP without permission to make a quick buck.  They're not doing individual castings in their basement or running off a hundred thinbooks at their local FedEx Office, they're contracting factories in China to make their unauthorized products on a larger scale and intend to distribute them as widely as possible to make as much profit as they can from it.  This kind of activity is explicitly and near-universally frowned upon by IP owners.

That distinction is why there are plenty of members here who don't really have any issue with garage kits, but do take exception to bootlegs.  It's all about intent and scale.  That's why you see IP owners like Big West or Bandai/Sunrise turning a blind eye to things like character garage kits and doujinshi while pursuing toy and model kit bootleggers in court.

Calibre Wings are professionals... their announcement of a Macross Zero F-14 was absolutely intended to misrepresent it as an official, licensed Macross product with a goal of making as much money on it as they could.  This isn't one guy doing sculpts and resin castings in his basement or his flat's spare bedroom.  This is a corporation that decided it was going to use a creator's intellectual property for profit without permission, and engaged the services of a factory to do so on a large scale.

 

 

1 hour ago, Einherjar said:

Titan Comics tried the clueless fanboy defense already, and look where their project ended up.

In all fairness, we don't actually know if that cancellation was prompted by legal issues or simply poor sales.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[Vifam7]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... some of what you came up with is correct, but your conclusion is wrong.

 

You've missed a couple really important key points here.

You see, Big West's use of the Grumman F-14 Tomcat design in Macross Zero does not give them any copyright claim on the F-14's design itself, but this toy still uses Big West's copyrighted intellectual property.

Calibre Wings is using the Macross Zero character designs for the pilot figures, as well as the names of Macross Zero characters in the toy's paintjob.  THAT'S clear-cut infringement of Big West-owned copyrights.  They also still used Macross Zero footage and the title Macross Zero to promote the toy.  That's also something Big West can sue them for, btw, as Calibre Wings does not have their consent to use Macross Zero in a commercial context period.  The real kicker is that Calibre Wings publicly stated that this was an unauthorized Macross Zero product in a public forum (on Twitter), meaning they have literally zero chance of getting a lawsuit from Big West dismissed because they confessed to the crime publicly and stated their intent to continue with their criminal activity  Not being in Japan doesn't exempt Calibre Wings from international copyright law.

The only thing I can think of is that they're hoping they're too small a target for Big West to bother suing, becuase they've done just about everything possible to ensure Big West could sue them and win on summary judgement from their own confession.

Where this REALLY gets problematic is that, if they claim they're using the UN Forces roundel and "UN Spacy" markings under their license with Harmony Gold... now Harmony Gold is a party to this lawsuit, and Harmony Gold could also sue them.  In the past, HG has filed lawsuits against other companies (e.g. Catalyst Game Labs) at the behest of Macross's Japanese owners.  HG could sue them on Big West's behalf for infringing upon the UN Spacy logo and name to prevent itself from being blamed in court for having authorized this bootleg (which they almost certainly didn't... their lawyers would have shat out their own hearts if they'd known).

But that's assuming HG has an issue with what CW is doing... 

Just wondering, but if the final product does not contain any M0 references (though presently it does), would there still be a case due to what it was promoted as?  Would there still be a case if it was just an F-14 in low-vis colors with UN Spacy logos (assuming the logo use was Ok'd by HG)?

 

[jenius]

I only know Calibre Wings to be one person... Not sure if he has employees but I imagine here's happy he gives the impression of a larger organization.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, Vifam7 said:

But that's assuming HG has an issue with what CW is doing... 

Oh, it's a safe bet they do... anything that could expose them to potential liability or make them a party to litigation against Calibre Wings is going to rustle their jimmies SEVERELY.

 

7 minutes ago, Vifam7 said:

Just wondering, but if the final product does not contain any M0 references (though presently it does), would there still be a case due to what it was promoted as?  Would there still be a case if it was just an F-14 in low-vis colors with UN Spacy logos (assuming the logo use was Ok'd by HG)?

Potentially... but it would be a far more defensible case than what it is currently, unless HG got involved over unauthorized use of the UN Spacy roundel.

[MKT]

2 minutes ago, jenius said:

I only know Calibre Wings to be one person... Not sure if he has employees but I imagine here's happy he gives the impression of a larger organization.

This is the impression I get as well.

He may be contracting out to a factory for his products (are limited, few hundred pieces considered mass production?) but legalities aside, he comes across to me as a consummate hobbyist, perfectionist in his models & a big fan of Macross.

 

[jvmacross]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh, I think that's more on you guys for failing to take into account the differences in scale and context involved... as well as whether or not the IP owner is OK with it.

You guys?  I honestly don't care either way.....if I like something and it is of decent quality I'll buy it....I'll let the producer and the ip holder hammer it out any way they'd like....

Additionally, how would you know if the IP owner is "ok" with it or not if they would be unaware of it...like the garage kits you mention?  Again, this goes into the fact that you seem to place a greater sense of criminality based on the amount of "stealing" being perpetrated.....honestly, that is just an easy construct to argue your point the way it suits you best for any given example of a theft of an IP.....in fact, all this does is give CalWings exactly the arguments they would need to just say we are "fans" making something for the "fans"...no harm, no foul, especially since the product is not being specifically marketed for Japanese consumers (BW's market territory)..or apparently any particular consumer other than "fans" of this particular F-14 scheme

I seriously doubt this batch of NOT-Macross Zero F-14's amounts to any significant amount of units being produced to impact BW's profits or "fan street cred" as they are so concerned about......it's just another niche Macross product...err....NOT Macross product! 

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Additionally, how would you know if the IP owner is "ok" with it or not if they would be unaware of it...like the garage kits you mention?

Fan works like garage kits and doujinshi are an industry-wide phenomenon in Japan... these types of fan works only exist in Japan because the IP owners deliberately turn a blind eye to the fact that they are unauthorized works as long as their creators keep it small, discreet, and for petty cash profit at most.

 

4 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Again, this goes into the fact that you seem to place a greater sense of criminality based on the amount of "stealing" being perpetrated.....honestly, that is just an easy construct to argue your point the way it suits you best for any given example of a theft of an IP.....in fact, all this does is give CalWings exactly the arguments they would need to just say we are "fans" making something for the "fans"...no harm, no foul, especially since the product is not being specifically marketed for Japanese consumers (BW's market territory)..or apparently any particular consumer other than "fans" of this particular F-14 scheme

Your self-serving misrepresentation of my post aside, what I've outlined is simply the reality of the situation and how what Calibre Wings has done differs from what IP owners in Japan consider "permissible" or at least "ignorable" copyright violations.

Regardless of how many people there are behind the Calibre Wings brand, two things put this outside that grey area that fan works like garage kits occupy:

• Calibre Scale Models is a company.
• This is For Profit.

Even if the owner/operator is a fan, it's still a professional outfit making and selling unauthorized Macross goods.  There's no way Big West wouldn't condemn that.  To do otherwise would make it harder to defend their brand in court later on.

 

4 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

I seriously doubt this batch of NOT-Macross Zero F-14's amounts to any significant amount of units being produced to impact BW's profits or "fan street cred" as they are so concerned about......it's just another niche Macross product...err....NOT Macross product! 

Either way, it's still a criminal act and we shouldn't be promoting counterfeit goods here.

[jvmacross]

13 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Fan works like garage kits and doujinshi are an industry-wide phenomenon in Japan... these types of fan works only exist in Japan because the IP owners deliberately turn a blind eye to the fact that they are unauthorized works as long as their creators keep it small, discreet, and for petty cash profit at most.

OK...you are either pretending that garage kits are only a Japanese "phenomenon".....or you are clearly ignorant to the fact that this very site is used as a platform to sell non-licensed products made outside of Japan...imagine that!....the only person here "self-serving" is you by applying a "grey" zone to the use of IP's without proper licensing....there is no degree of right or wrong.....if you don't have a license, you are accepting the consequences regardless of how minimal they may be.....the only difference between us is that I don't care about the issue enough to get on a soapbox and start wagging my finger at the "criminals" regardless of which country they eminate from or how "professional" their operation may be......sorry to say this, but you are either completely ignorant of the extent of "garage kits" and subsequent IP infringement outside of Japan and specifically this site or are just being a hypocrite for your own reasons....seriously, HG sucks, but why the hate on CalWings?  They did not create the bigger problems between HG and BW....if anything, it would seem BW is being the dick this time around...blocking cool Macross stuff is usually the domain of HG

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

OK...you are either pretending that garage kits are only a Japanese "phenomenon".....or you are clearly ignorant to the fact that this very site is used as a platform to sell non-licensed products made outside of Japan

Neither, in point of fact.  I'm simply pointing out that there are specific reasons why some kinds of infringement are grudgingly tolerated or ignored by the Japanese IP owners while others end up the subject of litigation... and that those are the same reasons that people on these forums don't have any real issue with garage kits or doujinshi but are unwilling to support or condone bootlegging operations.

You're trying to misrepresent these distinctions as arbitrary or hypocritical, and they're very clearly not.

I'm also looking at this specifically from the Japanese perspective, as Big West is a Japanese company.  The Japanese market is somewhat more tolerant of selling fan works than other markets in the west are, as long as it stays within certain limits.  The reason Calibre Wings is catching richly-deserved flak from Big West is that they're operating well outside of those established limits.

Calibre Wings didn't create the problem between Big West and HG, HG did... but this isn't related to that and you know it.  This is Calibre Wings throwing a very public hissy fit because Big West either didn't respond to their proposal fast enough or said no, and forging ahead with a product anyway out of a sense of entitlement.

[Vifam7]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Oh, it's a safe bet they do... anything that could expose them to potential liability or make them a party to litigation against Calibre Wings is going to rustle their jimmies SEVERELY.

By now I assume HG has gotten word of this model. If you're correct, then I think there's good possibility that this model becomes vaporware (as it hasn't been released yet). It wouldn't be the first time a diecast model company had to pull an announced model due to rights issues.

[Gerli]

Fotage from Macross Zero and music from VF-X2 to promote the thing... 

TOTALLY NOT MACROSS ZERO GUYS!

Edited July 19, 2020 by Gerli

[jvmacross]

42 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Calibre Wings didn't create the problem between Big West and HG, HG did... but this isn't related to that and you know it.  

I don't, as you pointed out there could be a dozen reasons for it....it could very well be because of CalWings business dealings with HG after their inital BW short-term licensing deals during WF...

Again, it is all good and fine that you are arguing in terms of the Japanese perspective, but as far as we know, this specific model is, at least now, only intended for non-Japanese markets....with that said, who exactly is being hurt by selling a product that will not be in competition with anything similar inside/outside of Japan?  Wouldn't that only be HG in the current scenario?  Imagine the outrage if now HG would come out and try and cock-block CalWings!!!

So if you are aware of some other non-transforming Japanese BW licensed 1/72 diecast Macross Zero F-14's coming out...let us know about it! 

 

[Einherjar]

15 minutes ago, Gerli said:

Fotage from Macross Zero and music from VF-X2 to promote the thing... 

TOTALLY NOT MACROSS ZERO GUYS!

Can’t help but think the same kind of ignorance of the legal situation that resulted in something like Remix happening had a hand in this.

[azrael]

So let me get this straight, bigger company reject's guy's offer to make a product so guy throws a hissy fit and makes said product anyways.

M'kay. Grow-up. Move on.