The Final Countdown

[Dobber]

Hi EVERYBODY! (insert Dr. Nick imersination) I was wondering what you all thought of the Final Countdown. Personally I love this Movie!! Where else can you see Tomcats Dog-fighting Zeros! I was just curious if anyone knew why it hasn't or *IF* this movie will make it to DVD.

Chris

[Dobber]

Not 1 minute after I post this Topic, I check Amazon and see that it is coming to DVD in March!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!

Chris

[myk]

Final Countdown......Is that the movie where the modern, nuclear powered 'carrier goes back through time? Well if it is, the Tomcats never got to fight the Zeroes....er, I mean slaughter them...

Actually, how would a confrontation like that go down? Missiles would be out of the question because the targeting software wouldn't recognize the targets right? It would have to be an all-out dogfight, and a scary one for the Zeroes at that.....

[VF-19 pilot!!!]

I agree,

that was one of the more impressive films related to quatum physics i had ever seen.....

[Coota0]

I don't see shy the radar wouldn't losk up a zero, it's still gonna get a radar return from it, just like any other aircraft, the modern fighters could launch missiles if they wanted too. I think a missile barrage would be the way to go too, trying to slow down enough to hit a Zero, would be difficuilt if it didn't stall the jets. If I were a Tomcat pilot I would Launch AIM-54s, the Zeros willnever knew what hit them, then follow up with AIM-7s, closure rates may make that difficuilt, a final volley of AIM-9s (assuming a Zero puts off enough heat) then a medium speed (high speed compared to a zero) through the formation guns blazing. If I was a Zero pilot, assuming I survived the missiles, I'd wait for the F-14s to come through the formation, and then take my shots with my cannon on the F-14s as they flew past.

[Skull Leader]

that movie kicked ass.... all I have though is a stupid Movie-to-TV version that was on TBS... so a lot of the movie is cut out. I WILL be picking this one up when it comes out on DVD... hopefully they cleaned up the resolution a little too.

[GobotFool]

It is out on DVD over at amazon.

[David Hingtgen]

Modern heatseekers don't need much at all. Heat caused by friction of the wing leading edges is what they're looking, if launched head-on. Also, while not a jet, the exhaust from a big piston engine is still definitely noticeable against the background, to a heat-seeker.

As for radar-guided missiles: Nothing creates a bigger radar return than a spinning blade. Big props like on a Zero create truly massive radar returns.

Coota--- one of the big "inventions" of the 30's and 40's was advanced high-lift devices for planes. F-14's have them, Zero's don't. F-14's have more than most any other fighter. They can go slower than a LOT of jets. (So that they can land on a carrier). There's no problem with speed. Plus, they've got swing-wings. They're always at "the right speed". WWII vs modern air combat speeds aren't all that different. You cannot dogfight supersonic.

[Dobber]

Actually there was a dog fight in the movie the Tomcats "played' with the Zero's before shooting one down with a sidewinder the other with the gun.

It's not available yet at Amazon. The 2 different DVD versions come out on March 30th. both have direct transfers of the movie to anamorphic widescreen! One is a 1 disc version the other is a 2 disc version with more extras including an interview with the Jolly Rogers Squadron! Pretty Cool!!!

Chris

[Noriko Takaya]

Ah yes, this movie was one of my favorites when I was a kid! It's finally great to see that this movie is coming out on DVD. I can't wait!

A little bit of warning to those who may find it already for sale on Amazon or what have you: Blue Underground is the official licensee of The Final Countdown. Another company, Triumph Marketing, has a version which is rather crappy under the label Pacific Family Entertainment. It is a bootleg.

The official Final Countdown DVDs (widescreen & full frame versions) will be new THX-approved 16x9/2.35:1 and 4x3/1.33:1 high-definition transfers and state-of-the-art 6.1 DTS-ES and 5.1 Dolby Digital Surround EX soundtracks. The tentative Street Date is March 2004.

This last bit of info comes from a letter posted to DVD Talk. Now if I could just get a DVD of the movies Convoy and TerrorVision my life will be complete...

Edited January 12, 2004 by Noriko Takaya

[Ladic]

I thought this thread was about the Europe Song

[Jolly Rogers]

Where is the barf emoticon when it is needed....

[Graham]

I remember being hugely dissapointed by this movie when I saw it at the cinema way back when. I was expecting lots of cool dogfights, but the film had hardly any action. Very anti-climatic. Two thumbs down.

Graham

[hellohikaru]

This movie is one of my favourites...far more realistic than say Top Gun. They even use the Jolly Rogers' callsign accurately "Victory".

@coota

Isn't using Phoenixs a bit of an overkill ?1 Phoenix could probably buy dozens of Zero-Sens.

Sidewinders and the M61A1 alrady more than adequate to deal with them.

@Dave Hintgen

Weren't the Tomcats of that era(70s) using earlier Sidewinders like AIM-9D, G and H models instead of the L ?

[David Hingtgen]

For a Navy plane, most likely the H, possibly the L. The L was "new" for the Navy at that time, but it was in service. If anybody had it, it'd be VF-84. D too old at that point, not on a front-line VF-84 aircraft. The G is a possibility, but a bit old, and definitely uncommon (by sheer numbers). There were many more H's built than G's. G was kind of an "interim" H.

Anyone got a good pic of the Sidewinders in The Final Countdown?

[Californium]

Great movie. Was definately one of my favorites. Kicks Top Gun's ass several times over.

[Coota0]

My reasoning in usng the pheonix is the flightpath they follow. The pheonix pulls up to a high altitude and then dives on it's target. The Zeros don't have an RWR setup, so their only way of seeing the missiles coming is visually, I don't think they're gonna see the AIM-54s. Reason Number 2, sparrows use semi-active homing, this means that the fighters radar must conitually paint the target, the Pheonix has it's own onboard radar, I figured trying to launch 4 sparrows all the way to their targets would be difficult, given the closing speeds, the zeros aren't going to be heading away from the tomcats very fast, besides it was theory

[Nightbat]

I figured trying to launch 4 sparrows all the way to their targets would be difficult, given the closing speeds, the zeros aren't going to be heading away from the tomcats very fast, besides it was theory

If the F-14's targeting systems are able to lock on to max. 6 targets handling 4 missiles shouldn't be that hard

and lets not forget missiles can also take out jets coming head on, they close a lot faster than Zeros

[Coota0]

If the F-14's targeting systems are able to lock on to max. 6 targets handling 4 missiles shouldn't be that hard

and lets not forget missiles can also take out jets coming head on, they close a lot faster than Zeros

The F-14's radar can lock on and track six tragets on the radar, but this is for use with a self guiding missile like the AMRAAM or Pheonix (in the case of the F-14), but when you fire a Sparrow you narrow the beam and only track one target at a time. On an AMARAAM or Pheonix the missile gets a locatio from the radar before it fires so it knows where to go, but for treminal guidance it turns on it's own radar and tracks the target to a kill, a Sparrow continually gets updates from the F-14's radar all the way to the target. All this means you can fire multiple Pheonix missiles at multiple targets, but you can only fire on one target at a time using a Sparrow.

[Mechamaniac]

Well, the law of averages means that when a squadron of Tomcats goes up against the entire Japanese Naval air force on it's way to Pearl Harbor, despite superior firepower, one of the Tomcats is probably going to get splashed.

Man, can you imagine the ribbing that guy would get?. They'd have to change his callsign to Subsonic Bob for the rest of his career.

[Gaijin]

Can't wait for the DVD...one of my old time favorites.

[uminoken]

Actually there was a dog fight in the movie the Tomcats "played' with the Zero's before shooting one down with a sidewinder the other with the gun.

How effictive would both sides' guns be? Modern construction vs 1940's? I keep flashing to Back to the Future II - "There he is, Doc! Let's land on him, we'll cripple his car. Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a DeLorean. He'd rip through us like we were tin foil." Same scenario?

[David Hingtgen]

::has to go look up Zero armament (I'm better with German WWII fighters)::

A6M2 Zero has 2x20mm cannons and 2x 7.92mm machine guns. Typical but weak as WWII fighters go. 7.92mm isn't going to do much, not against the thick hide of the F-14, IMHO. Cannons--only 50 rounds total. F-14's fire 100 rounds PER SECOND. Sure, it could probably do SOME damage with its machine guns, and if it had like a 100% hit rate with its cannons, maybe take down the Tomcat. This assumes it can unload every bullet it has into it, requiring the Tomcat to just sit there for a few seconds, being fired upon again and again.

F-14's have a 20mm cannon. But it fires about 6,000rpm (6 times as fast as even the machine guns of the Zero, and like 30 times as fast as the Zero's cannons), and at a much higher muzzle velocity than the zero. And it has about 15x as much ammo for its cannon as the Zero. Also, the range of its gun is at least 3 times that of the Zero's. Basically, it has one really kick-ass gun. As opposed to several mediocre guns.

Finally, Zero's were known to have little tolerance for damage--little armor, thin armor, easy to disable with like 3 shots. And generally lightly built. (Materials shortage). They would literally be shredded by the M61A1/2, the standard gun of the F-4/14/15/16/18/22.

Would need about a 1/25th of a second burst from a Tomcat to go down.

[KingNor]

i so barely remember that movie.

lately i've been more impressed with 80's movies

i just saw days of thunder the other day on tv, compaired to the crap their chruning out in theaters now-a-days, even that movie had superior storytelling

does anyone remember how good of a movie it actually is? i do remember being unimpressed by the lack of action as a kid, but today i am able to handle more storyline.

what exactly goes on during all that time they arn't actually fighting anyone?

*** edit ***

i can't believe some of you guys are questioning f-14s effectivness against zeros, when jet fighters build only 5 or 6 years later were considered GOD LIKE against prop planes.

zeros wouldn't stand a farts chance in a strong wind.

Edited January 13, 2004 by KingNor

[Coota0]

Nor, you're right Tomcats would tear up Zeros, Vals and Kates, but I think the discussion was more of will there be any casualties for the F-14s and how would you go about fighting prop driven planes. U.S pilots aren't taught to combat something that slow. I also think a lot of people were looking at the Tomcats losing a plane or two just to probability, the Japs sent in a laot of aircraft to hit Pearl Harbor, the chances of a colision during combat, or a lucky shot would account for that.

[tom64ss]

I thought this thread was about the Europe Song

Me too

[Nightbat]

Nor, you're right Tomcats would tear up Zeros, Vals and Kates, but I think the discussion was more of will there be any casualties for the F-14s and how would you go about fighting prop driven planes. U.S pilots aren't taught to combat something that slow. I also think a lot of people were looking at the Tomcats losing a plane or two just to probability, the Japs sent in a laot of aircraft to hit Pearl Harbor, the chances of a colision during combat, or a lucky shot would account for that.

Won't be any different than taking out choppers

what you also seem to forget is that the Japanese wouldn't have a notion of what the hell is on their asses

if a tomcat were to make a low pass over a squadron of zeros doing Mach 1.5

chances are it would take out half of them just due to the sonic wave

Tomcats can also fight from higher altitude, longer range, they don't need to get in close

If they play their cards right, the zeros never even saw what hit them

[Dobber]

i so barely remember that movie.

lately i've been more impressed with 80's movies

i just saw days of thunder the other day on tv, compaired to the crap their chruning out in theaters now-a-days, even that movie had superior storytelling

does anyone remember how good of a movie it actually is? i do remember being unimpressed by the lack of action as a kid, but today i am able to handle more storyline.

what exactly goes on during all that time they arn't actually fighting anyone?

*** edit ***

i can't believe some of you guys are questioning f-14s effectivness against zeros, when jet fighters build only 5 or 6 years later were considered GOD LIKE against prop planes.

zeros wouldn't stand a farts chance in a strong wind.

I've always found the movie to be Awesome!! Even as a kid. Then again I've always been a fan of Naval Aviation and the Navy in general. Most of the movie is the Nimitz trying to figure out what the hell happened to them and once the think they are back in 1941 they still are not sure if it is just some ellaborate prank to see how they would respond ala Martin Seans Character. Bottom line I think you'll like it now that your tastes have matured a little (Being able to take more story)

Chris

I love the scenes when the Tomcats first do the Fly by of the yacht and then especially after the Zero's shot the Sh*t out of it. They come streaking in Like 2 pissed off Guirdian Angels.

[Dobber]

We've been talking about how the Nimitz's Airwing would fair against the Japanese task force airwing. I want to know how you all think the Nimitz and its Airwing would fair against the Task-Force itself. Did the Navy at the time (late 70's early 80's) have good anti-ship capability. I know the ship had A-6's, A-7's, and F-86's but I'm not sure of their anti-ship capabilities. Would they just Dumb-Bomb the fleet from altitude?

Chris

[uminoken]

Nor, you're right Tomcats would tear up Zeros, Vals and Kates, but I think the discussion was more of will there be any casualties for the F-14s and how would you go about fighting prop driven planes. U.S pilots aren't taught to combat something that slow. I also think a lot of people were looking at the Tomcats losing a plane or two just to probability, the Japs sent in a laot of aircraft to hit Pearl Harbor, the chances of a colision during combat, or a lucky shot would account for that.

Actually after talking with my dad (he was stashed with the same squad for 4 months and later rode in both the fighters that are shown launching in the first sec of the big not-battle) there really is no contest. The F-14's not only could use all missles available, the guns would not only be just as effective, but pilots are trained to attack stationary targets, so taking out props wouldn't be too much of a challenge. Numbers would be the best thing going for the Zeros. And after seeing the movie again, while the naval scenes are excellent, the rest of the film, not so much.

[David Hingtgen]

Take out the task force? No problem. Remember, with modern planes and weapons, even dumb bombs are highly accurate, many many many times more accurate than WW2 bombs. Even a dumb bomb is now launched with computers, optical signals, etc. It may not be able to guide itself, but the pilot knows EXACTLY when and where to drop it. And ships are big targets.

Also, the bombs themselves are larger, and more powerful.

Plus they carry more. One A-7 could carry as much ordnance as like 15 standard WWII divebombers. Sending out both A-7 squadrons from the air wing would be like sending out several hundred WWII planes. And the A-7's wouldn't miss nearly as much.

Carriers are designed to do ANYTHING. If you need it taken out, they have an aircraft that can do it. (Though they may not be all that good at it--which is why carriers go with a battlegroup, to fill in what it lacks)

Of course, a big part of the movie is that just the Nimitz goes back in time, not its battlegroup. Taking out other ships is at the low-end of a carrier's abilities--it's planes can do it, but they're not the best at it, and it won't happen quickly. That's what destroyers and cruisers are for--they're the ones with most of the anti-ship missiles.

Edited January 14, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Coota0]

Dobber, F-86's? Like the Saber?

[Dobber]

D'oh!!!!!!!, Good catch Coota0, I ment F-8 Crusader. Silly Dobber

Chris

[David Hingtgen]

F-8's were already too old to be in service by then. And F-8's are about as pure a fighter as you can get (and a gunfighter, at that). Don't expect to see an F-8 with bombs.

PS--laser-guided bombs aren't all that new. First deployed in Vietnam. A-6's used them all the time in Gulf War, but I'd have to look for a while to see if they were common in the late 70's. (F-4 and F-111 were the "favorites" for new bombs and stuff, A-6's were always last on the list)

::edit:: Yup, A-6E's wer already up to their 2nd-generation laser tracking pods by then. So the Nimitz could have certainly sent out squadrons of A-6's to launch laser-guided bombs against the Japanese fleet. (And A-6's can self-lase, one of the earliest planes to do so)

Edited January 14, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Jolly Rogers]

Mods, I object to KingNor's avatar unless the black bar is removed.