Star Wars Episode IX, The Rise of Skywalker, available on home video

[Mommar]

49 minutes ago, jenius said:

As far as I can tell, the Star Wars universe has no friction, no aerodynamics, no atmospheres, 

Given the function of flight is based around WWII dog fighting EVERYTHING has friction and aerodynamics and atmosphere in Star Wars.

[Mazinger]

5 minutes ago, Mommar said:

Given the function of flight is based around WWII dog fighting EVERYTHING has friction and aerodynamics and atmosphere in Star Wars.

Remember fluidic space from ST:Voyager?  Maybe this far away galaxy is really just under water somewhere out there.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Mazinger

[Chronocidal]

7 hours ago, Dynaman said:

They way it shown happening on screen?  NO it can not happen no matter how much thrust is coming out those engines.  In space if you want to change direction you point you keester in the direction you want to go and then fire off the engines.  Anything else is pure fantasy with no ifs ands or buts.

What I'm saying is, rethink how you're applying thrust.

The reason spacecraft fly how they do is because it's practical, and works with the technology we have.  That doesn't mean that there aren't entirely impossible and impractical alternatives.

When you have a box capable of emitting a force with zero mass transfer (basically ignoring Newton's third entirely), all kinds of impossible things suddenly become very plausible.  This is one of them.  

If you assume infinite ability to generate thrust, apart from any traditional concept of fuel, there's no reason you can't fly like an airplane in space.  You just have to cover the ship in fantasy thrusters, and they duplicate the forces experienced by an aircraft in atmospheric flight.

Far as flight in actual atmospheric flight goes though, I always assumed that if you have deflector shields capable of repelling solid objects, they would clearly have the capability of repelling atmospheres.  No excuse for Ties (and assorted books actually make a point that they behave terribly in atmosphere), but anything with shields could theoretically just behave like a perfectly streamlined aerodynamic bubble.

As a side note though, from a "fighter pilot" perspective, the new movies have the same problem that ST:TNG had in its first season: the dialogue is terrible.  (I'm mostly thinking of TFA here, I haven't seen TLJ enough times to remember if this was an issue).  The pilots all talk like they've never been in a cockpit before in their life.  The prequels had a bit of this too, but only in TPM I think, since after that the battles were mostly involving clones, and the dialogue was heavily militaristic.

Mimicking the WWII movies is what gave all the OT movies some weight.  The cockpit dialogue was short, precise, and distinct.  Everything in the new movies comes off with the same cringe factor as Geordi in the first few episodes of TNG going "Course laid in, four hundred thirty three by twenty seven."  You don't relay coordinates that way, you speak the digits.  You don't say "nope" over the comm, you say "negative."  These aren't direct quotes, and none of the movies were perfect, but the dialogue in the OT just felt so much less.. amateur.

I absolutely know I'm nit picking here, but I hope I'm not the only person who noticed this.  It just sounds wrong.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Chronocidal

[Dynaman]

47 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

 

The reason spacecraft fly how they do is because it's practical, and works with the technology we have.  That doesn't mean that there aren't entirely impossible and impractical alternatives.

 

Anything else is fantasy, not science fiction.  Star Wars is Science Fantasy so it doesn't bother me.  I freely admit to not reading the rest of your post since if I reject the very premise there is no point.  I'll also jump off the merry go round here too.  

[sh9000]

 

[Seto Kaiba]

16 minutes ago, sh9000 said:

 

... and just like that, now I just want The Rise of Skywalker to be a What We Do In The Shadows-style mockumentary narrated by Kylo Ren, continuously expressing his incredulous disbelief over how this sh*t turned out.

[Chronocidal]

26 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Anything else is fantasy, not science fiction.  Star Wars is Science Fantasy so it doesn't bother me.  I freely admit to not reading the rest of your post since if I reject the very premise there is no point.  I'll also jump off the merry go round here too.  

You're right about it being fantasy, so I get you.  

I think if we had strong enough thrusters with low enough fuel consumption it would be entirely possible to do, but I doubt it would ever reach a level of practicality where it mattered, because the methods we've been using so far will always be more fuel efficient.

As a side note, I love how wacky this board's spellchecker is.. you'd think after this many discussions of space-related stuff, it would know enough not to flag the word "thruster."  

[Dynaman]

Ooops - forgot one thing.  Not only is SW fantasy it wears it proudly.  I just remembered Han, Leia, and Chewie going out into what they thought was vacuum with nothing but a face mask (and not a securely fastened one at that).  Just nuts if they were in any universe even near like ours.

The Black Hole did try to show gravity but messed it up royally.  People were floating around with the engines firing at full power and Earnst Borgnine floating toward the top of the ship with the engines going full power gets funnier the more I see it.  (Yeah, I brought The Black Hole into this...)

 

EDIT - The other item I thought about is that SW has pretty good internal consistancy with it's physics.  With a couple of major sticking points (hyperspace ramming for instance).  So the Proton Torpedoes falling like there is Earth Gravity on the Death Star (which should be more like the moon's) is a natural outgrowth into those B wing things.  I thought the first was WAY COOL (but I was 11) while the second was mind boggling dumb (but I was 50 something).

Edited October 25, 2019 by Dynaman

[JB0]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Can we just blame everything on the Jedi, like a Star Wars-specific version of A Wizard Did It?

"A space wizard did it" is half of the actual plot of the films.

[Chronocidal]

26 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

EDIT - The other item I thought about is that SW has pretty good internal consistancy with it's physics.  With a couple of major sticking points (hyperspace ramming for instance).  So the Proton Torpedoes falling like there is Earth Gravity on the Death Star (which should be more like the moon's) is a natural outgrowth into those B wing things.  I thought the first was WAY COOL (but I was 11) while the second was mind boggling dumb (but I was 50 something).

Actually, I don't think the proton torpedoes falling was ever meant to be gravity, at least not at the trajectory they were flying.  Remember, the Y-Wings were originally bombers, and in other sources they're absolutely what you would use to drop a bomb onto a ground target, as well as launching heavy projectiles. 

The X-Wings were a last-resort backup when the bombers were all destroyed, and while I figure maybe the torpedoes could be programmed to fly a pre-determined flightpath to a target, I think the only way Luke managed to make that shot was literally via the Force.

[Dynaman]

19 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Actually, I don't think the proton torpedoes falling was ever meant to be gravity, at least not at the trajectory they were flying.  Remember, the Y-Wings were originally bombers, and in other sources they're absolutely what you would use to drop a bomb onto a ground target, as well as launching heavy projectiles. 

The X-Wings were a last-resort backup when the bombers were all destroyed, and while I figure maybe the torpedoes could be programmed to fly a pre-determined flightpath to a target, I think the only way Luke managed to make that shot was literally via the Force.

True - what is shown on screen is beyond even normal physics.  Then again I forgot how fast the X-wings had to be travelling to GET to the Death Star from another moon.  They were going mighty slow after that.  Which leads back to Star Wars has funky physics (at best) and anything goes as long as it is internally(ish) consistant.  

> "A space wizard did it" is half of the actual plot of the films.

I'd put it closer to 100% after the prequals.

[Old_Nash]

[sketchley]

6 hours ago, Dynaman said:

(...) Which leads back to Star Wars has funky physics (at best) and anything goes as long as it is internally(ish) consistant. 

 

I think this sums up why I totally dislike the "so-called" bomber scene in Eps 8.  It's just not consistent with what we've seen before in any of the SW movies.  This inconsistency stretches from spaceship ("spacebomber") design and munitions used, to spaceship speeds and combat tactics used.

 

Just think how much more interesting and visually dynamic the sequence would've been if Poe was point man to a squadron of rusty Y-wing clunkers that ends up with a scene like 'Kong rides the bomb' from "Dr. Strangelove".

But I guess because one of the Disney execs' goals was to sell more merchandise we get suspension-of-disbelief breaking "spacebombers" . . .

[tekering]

4 hours ago, sketchley said:

I guess because one of the Disney execs' goals was to sell more merchandise we get suspension-of-disbelief breaking "spacebombers" . . .

Well, that Disney exec sure screwed up big time there...! 

Of all the new vehicles introduced in the film, only three got produced as toys (four, if you count the "new" A-Wing)... and of the hundreds of new characters, aliens/creatures, and First Order soldier variants featured in the film, only nine got unique action figures (twelve, if you count droids).

That's a paltry sum for most toy lines; it's an absolute travesty for a billion-dollar hit like The Last Jedi.  

Hell, even the financial disaster Solo had more characters produced as figures!  

[Duymon]

I found it funny that after the last jedi the tone was "this isn't for u old fans of the OG trilogy" and then they pump the episode 9 trailer full of references that only old OG Trilogy fans would understand (y-wings, B-wings, deathstar throne room, Palpatine...)

It's almost as if the new sequel trilogy is so weak that it can't stand on its own without the crutch of OG trilogy fanservice. I feel that's really why the new Star Wars has failed to grasp the younger generation.

[Dynaman]

Episode 7 had slightly modified X-Wings, Slightly modified Tie Fighters, Slightly Modified Star Destroyers, Slightly Modified Rebels, Slightly Modified Empire, Slightly modified Death Star.  Only the first of the prequels had a really different look to it and Lucas changed that very quickly.

 

[Mommar]

3 hours ago, Dynaman said:

  Only the first of the prequels had a really different look to it and Lucas changed that very quickly.

 

Define “really.”  Because I maintain you’re wrong.

Also, Han and Leia did NOT think the exterior of the asteroid was zero gravity like space.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Mommar

[Black Valkyrie]

 

After the Last Jedi, I lost interest. 

 

[Chronocidal]

6 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Episode 7 had slightly modified X-Wings, Slightly modified Tie Fighters, Slightly Modified Star Destroyers, Slightly Modified Rebels, Slightly Modified Empire, Slightly modified Death Star.  Only the first of the prequels had a really different look to it and Lucas changed that very quickly.

 

Don't forget, you also had D-Day landing craft (IN SPACE!), the "quad jumper" (a cockpit glued to four engines), Rey's jet engine bike (I swear, they stole that concept from an episode of Talespin), Han's flying corridor chase soundstage, and Leia's Flying Taco Truck.

Each of the prequels managed to pull off a fairly distinct look though, and they did it in a way that actually fit something that looked like wartime tech progression.  The Jedi starfighters went from a delta design to something very Tie-like, and other ships looked like direct design ancestors of OT-era craft.  They didn't always look less advanced, but you could imagine a design progression, closer to stylistic differences between various year models with cars.

Far as vehicle toys go though, no we didn't get many traditional figure-scaled ones, but in TLJ's case, I think that was a combination of practical reasons (the bombers would have been huge), and aesthetic reasons (did anyone actually want that stupid pod craft Rose and Finn stole?).

On the other hand though, don't forget, they covered all those bases with Lego sets ten ways from tuesday.  Not that any of those sold either, but they did exist.

[DewPoint]

The level of incompetence shown by "Rebel" leadership in Episodes 7 & 8 has turned me into a Empire supporter.  I've concluded that the Empire is the lawful and legitimate government and the "Rebels" are no more than terrorists.  I'm surprised by how much I like the Disney Marvel series and how much I don't like the Star Wars movies.  The B/SF-17 heavy bomber still bothers me.  Attaching rocket engines on the "bombs" would have made way more sense to me.  I'll likely still watch Episode 9, it just may not be in the Theater.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Episode 7 had slightly modified X-Wings, Slightly modified Tie Fighters, Slightly Modified Star Destroyers, Slightly Modified Rebels, Slightly Modified Empire, Slightly modified Death Star.

... several of which, like the X-Wings, were actually evolving backwards towards their original McQuarrie concept art.

(Which, as an admirer of his work, is the opposite of a problem in my opinion.)

 

8 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Only the first of the prequels had a really different look to it and Lucas changed that very quickly.

Isn't that the point, though?  The prequel trilogy was all about the Republic's slow evolution towards becoming the Empire and our boy Mannequin's slow evolution towards from Jedi aspirant to perpetually-angry 7'2" asthematic cripple in a cyborg gimp suit.

A few examples of the Phantom Menace aesthetics did stick around all the way into Revenge of the Sith.  Most notably the Naboo cruiser that Amidala uses to get around.

 

1 hour ago, Chronocidal said:

Leia's Flying Taco Truck.

Someone get Disney on the line... this should be added to the concessions for Galaxy's Edge.

 

46 minutes ago, DewPoint said:

The level of incompetence shown by "Rebel" leadership in Episodes 7 & 8 has turned me into a Empire supporter.  I've concluded that the Empire is the lawful and legitimate government and the "Rebels" are no more than terrorists.

From what I've seen, this is a pretty typical trajectory for Star Wars fans as a whole... the longer they associate with the franchise, the more they seem to drift towards preferring the Empire and the Dark Side over the actual heroes of the story.  Possibly related to the franchise's recurring obsession with "Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb".

[David Hingtgen]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

From what I've seen, this is a pretty typical trajectory for Star Wars fans as a whole... the longer they associate with the franchise, the more they seem to drift towards preferring the Empire and the Dark Side over the actual heroes of the story.  Possibly related to the franchise's recurring obsession with "Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb".

And Gundam!  Nobody likes Amuro, but everyone wants more Char... 

[DewPoint]

Isn't that because most Gundam protagonist start off as little whinny brats?

[Dobber]

2 hours ago, DewPoint said:

The level of incompetence shown by "Rebel" leadership in Episodes 7 & 8 has turned me into a Empire supporter.  I've concluded that the Empire is the lawful and legitimate government and the "Rebels" are no more than terrorists.  I'm surprised by how much I like the Disney Marvel series and how much I don't like the Star Wars movies.  The B/SF-17 heavy bomber still bothers me.  Attaching rocket engines on the "bombs" would have made way more sense to me.  I'll likely still watch Episode 9, it just may not be in the Theater.

True, but the level of incompetence shown by the First Order in Ep 8 was pretty spectacular too. Let’s use our primed shot to shoot at the stationary fixed base that we clearly see the Rebels evacuating instead of the ships that can (and later do hyperspace away) ect.

Chris

[Dynaman]

7 hours ago, Mommar said:

Define “really.”  Because I maintain you’re wrong.

Also, Han and Leia did NOT think the exterior of the asteroid was zero gravity like space.

I'll just agree to disagree on all points.

[Thom]

14 hours ago, Duymon said:

I found it funny that after the last jedi the tone was "this isn't for u old fans of the OG trilogy" and then they pump the episode 9 trailer full of references that only old OG Trilogy fans would understand (y-wings, B-wings, deathstar throne room, Palpatine...)

It's almost as if the new sequel trilogy is so weak that it can't stand on its own without the crutch of OG trilogy fanservice. I feel that's really why the new Star Wars has failed to grasp the younger generation.

It can't. Johnson missed his chance to continue the arc but turned the middle chapter into a too long chase scene. The last movie in a trilogy is usually used to tie up loose ends and give a meaningful, exciting ending. Instead Abrams has to rush it in the final two plus hours, so of course they are going to be hitting the nostalgia button pretty dang hard and turning it into even more of a continuation of the OT, including the original main villain.

I'll still be watching this in the theaters though. As a 'stand alone' movie TFA was very good, IMHO and I'm thinking (hoping) RoSW will be as fun.

[Roy Focker]

3 hours ago, DewPoint said:

The level of incompetence shown by "Rebel" leadership in Episodes 7 & 8 has turned me into a Empire supporter.  I've concluded that the Empire is the lawful and legitimate government and the "Rebels" are no more than terrorists.

I kinda agree even through the Empire are space Nazis.  The Emperor worked the system to take over.  He didn't corrupt the Republic it was already corrupt.  Naboo a member of the republic was helpless to Trade Federation and the Senate  couldn't or wouldn't do anything to stop them.  The Jedi takes force sensitive babies away and raises them to have no relationships. That's asking for trouble.  Slavery exists but the republic and Jedi do nothing to stop it.

The republic was already a failure even without Palps schemes.

 

[pengbuzz]

59 minutes ago, Roy Focker said:

I kinda agree even through the Empire are space Nazis.  The Emperor worked the system to take over.  He didn't corrupt the Republic it was already corrupt.  Naboo a member of the republic was helpless to Trade Federation and the Senate  couldn't or wouldn't do anything to stop them.  The Jedi takes force sensitive babies away and raises them to have no relationships. That's asking for trouble.  Slavery exists but the republic and Jedi do nothing to stop it.

The republic was already a failure even without Palps schemes.

 

The Republic seemed to only want to maintain the status quo, which Palpatine surreptitiously used in order to foist the Empire upon the galaxy. He just used their desire to maintain a comfort level and way of life they were accustomed to, and promised to keep that under the auspices of consolidating the Republic into something else. It's not new, and Hitler did something similar, only he promised the people jobs, economic stability and prosperity (which they didn't have under the Weimar Republic in the aftermath of WWI).

On that note: the Jedi seemed so afraid of creating potential "dark Jedi" that they did their level best to make sure no one had any emotions to stir in order to for the Dark Side to take advantage of. What they didn't get is that there's a major difference between "ignore" and "control".: ignoring feelings and trying not to have them is not the same as recognizing them and controlling them. This ties into a theory I maintain: the Dark Side isn't out there, but rather, it's inside every force user. If life creates the Force and makes it grow, then life itself has the dark and light sides. Therefore, to defeat the dark side, one has to defeat the dark side within themselves and know who and what they are.

You can't do that when you've been raised to be an emotionless, compassionless drone with a laser sword. As it stands, they were utterly clueless when a Sith Lord was elected to rule the Senate, and all their precious Force abilities did was to tell them "your Magic Eight-Ball is cloudy, please try again".

As for the slavery in the galaxy: there's always been "disposable people" in any society that are conveniently ignored, taken advantage of and utterly left to die. The Republic is no different, and no better. With the Jedi upholding the Republic, I suspect it would cause them to be excommunicated from the community if they suddenly started freeing those that the Republic depended upon to do the work that their more well-ensconced citizens would not deign to touch with a ten-foot pole. Once again, maintaining the status quo, only this time, under the guise of "better that a relative few should suffer than the whole".

Edited October 28, 2019 by pengbuzz

[JB0]

7 hours ago, DewPoint said:

The level of incompetence shown by "Rebel" leadership in Episodes 7 & 8 has turned me into a Empire supporter.  I've concluded that the Empire is the lawful and legitimate government and the "Rebels" are no more than terrorists.  I'm surprised by how much I like the Disney Marvel series and how much I don't like the Star Wars movies.  The B/SF-17 heavy bomber still bothers me.  Attaching rocket engines on the "bombs" would have made way more sense to me.  I'll likely still watch Episode 9, it just may not be in the Theater.

Well, the "rebellion" in Force Awakens was literally a state-sponsored terrorist organization. 

As I recall the film, the New Republic and Empire signed a peace treaty, and then high-ranking Republic officials started supplying the new Rebellion with funds and equipment to continue the war against the Empire in defiance of the treaty.

Meanwhile, the Empire built a combination Death Star/Sun Crusher so they could wreck multiple Republic planets with every shot. Neither side had any respect for the treaty.

[kalvasflam]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

From what I've seen, this is a pretty typical trajectory for Star Wars fans as a whole... the longer they associate with the franchise, the more they seem to drift towards preferring the Empire and the Dark Side over the actual heroes of the story.  Possibly related to the franchise's recurring obsession with "Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb".

I wonder if that's because most Star Wars fans have become so jaded following the original trilogy that they all realize how Spaceballs was a much more entertaining replacement for the franchise than the spawn of Lucas post the original trilogy.  Because let's face it, we got much more mileage out of Moranis and Pullman than we ever did with Christensen, Portman, McGregor, or Ridley.  Spaceballs is a classic that only gets better with age... the SW follow ons, not so much, and it gets a little worse with every rewatching. 

[jenius]

11 hours ago, Black Valkyrie said:

 

After the Last Jedi, I lost interest. 

 

Says the guy in the star wars thread.

[azrael]

21 hours ago, Duymon said:

It's almost as if the new sequel trilogy is so weak that it can't stand on its own without the crutch of OG trilogy fanservice. I feel that's really why the new Star Wars has failed to grasp the younger generation.

Naw...really?

10 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Each of the prequels managed to pull off a fairly distinct look though, and they did it in a way that actually fit something that looked like wartime tech progression.  The Jedi starfighters went from a delta design to something very Tie-like, and other ships looked like direct design ancestors of OT-era craft.  They didn't always look less advanced, but you could imagine a design progression, closer to stylistic differences between various year models with cars.

And that was the whole point of the design aesthetic of the prequels. They start with more curves then make their way to the boxy-industrial look of the OT. The Republic ships eventually become the Empire so the designers start with curvy art nouveau to the industrial design, much like car designs. But whoever the designers of the sequels are don't understand that. And that's the lacking element from the sequel designs. Nothing has changed. It's basically the McQuarrie concept art. There was no imagination in the sequel designs. Much like car design has brought back curves, the designers could have done the same. Modern car designs have adopted an aerodynamic feel to maximize air flow around the car. The sequel designers could have introduced something along those lines...but no.

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

The Republic seemed to only want to maintain the status quo, which Palpatine surreptitiously used in order to foist the Empire upon the galaxy. He just used their desire to maintain a comfort level and way of life they were accustomed to, and promised to keep that under the auspices of consolidating the Republic into something else.

By the time we get to that point in the story (Episode 1), yes, the Republic was at that point of just maintaining status quo. And that's where Palps saw his opening.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, jenius said:

Says the guy in the star wars thread.

Hey, I didn't even care enough to WATCH Last Jedi and I'm in here.

[tekering]

4 hours ago, JB0 said:

Well, the "rebellion" in Force Awakens was literally a state-sponsored terrorist organization. 

As I recall the film, the New Republic and Empire signed a peace treaty, and then high-ranking Republic officials started supplying the new Rebellion with funds and equipment to continue the war against the Empire in defiance of the treaty.

You obviously don't recall the film.  

There's no Rebellion, no Empire, and no peace treaty mentioned... although, to be fair, there's no backstory to contradict your version of events, either.

In fact, there's no backstory at all, which was my biggest problem with The Force Awakens.

How is it that the state-sponsored Resistance was such a pitiful little band of guerrilla fighters, while the mysterious First Order had greater resources than the Empire had?

3 minutes ago, JB0 said:

I didn't even care enough to WATCH Last Jedi and I'm in here.

Well, Johnson did nothing to expand on Abrams' non-existent backstory either, so you haven't missed anything.

In fact, Johnson threw out anything that referenced the Republic at all, leaving the First Order as the de facto government... but even that's assuming facts not in evidence.

Say what you will about the prequels; at least they had a clearly-established setting, and the politics made sense.  Lucas may not know anything about acting or dialogue, but at least he cared about worldbuilding.  The sequel trilogy, however, has no internal logic or consistency, 'cause nobody put as much thought into it as we have.

It's like listening to the Beatles play a Japanese pop song.  It sounds great, but there's no emotional resonance because they don't understand what they're singing.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, tekering said:

You obviously don't recall the film.  

Well, it WAS pretty forgettable.

I guess I imagined a better film to fill that void(and it was still bad).