Hasegawa VF-31

[mickyg]

7 hours ago, wm cheng said:

Oh those days might be past me now... so busy with work and family.  Those were the days with endless time, what did I ever do with all that free time?!  I only really get to touching up toys now a days.  Hoping to live vicariously through other members here.  I mostly just collect boxes of models to pile up in my basement for retirement

Yup...

Somewhere I have a pic of my pile of Macross models.  And then there's the real world models that probably outnumber the Macross ones 3 to 1.  It's downright scary how much time those things represent when I look at them all together.

[seti88]

boy all these undone kits discussion, was it a coincidence that i read this article from a japanese collector... http://portal.nifty.com/kiji/170613199880_1.htm

As for my count, have abt a dozen gundam kits plus 5-6 macross hase's still in box lol...

[ivorysniper]

14 hours ago, wm cheng said:

Oh those days might be past me now... so busy with work and family.  Those were the days with endless time, what did I ever do with all that free time?!  I only really get to touching up toys now a days.  Hoping to live vicariously through other members here.  I mostly just collect boxes of models to pile up in my basement for retirement

I recall the days when you told us about enjoying a lot your newborn baby girl and the scarcity of free time for model building. I'm now in the same boat, with a 7-month-old baby girl grabbing all my attention. But even though my air compressor is now mothballed and bubble-wrapped along with 90% of the tooling, with very low chances of re-deployment on a near future, there's some Ash Ketchum's syndrome that prevents me from quitting stockpiling kits. I wonder if the decal sheets will withstand all that long time until retirement.

[Kelsain]

I think it's genetic. 

My dad always had a bunch of kits in the attic. Mostly Scifi stuff like Buck Rogers, 2001, classic MPC Star Wars kits. Some aircraft & naval vessels too. He rarely built any of them, and let me tackle a few. He also had grand plans to do a train layout and stockpiled supplies for that. Never got to it. I'm sure the other woman has purged those collections and aspirations by now.

My Grandpa built mostly 1/25 cars. He actually did built them, mostly with the stock plastic color + painted details & bare metal foil. Had a nice display case in the dining room showing off about 2 dozen cars & fire trucks. After he died, Grandma needed a new roof, and the roofers discovered that the attic was PACKED with car models that he'd collected for the past 50 years. She was furious.

Me? I've got a cabinet full of mobile suits to work on at my desk during lunch, and a case each of 1/72, 1/100, & starship scale kits in the basement at home. But 2 kids, lots of projects, and nowhere to paint...  And I'm eyeing the HLJ sale still...

[wm cheng]

13 hours ago, ivorysniper said:

I recall the days when you told us about enjoying a lot your newborn baby girl and the scarcity of free time for model building. I'm now in the same boat, with a 7-month-old baby girl grabbing all my attention. But even though my air compressor is now mothballed and bubble-wrapped along with 90% of the tooling, with very low chances of re-deployment on a near future, there's some Ash Ketchum's syndrome that prevents me from quitting stockpiling kits. I wonder if the decal sheets will withstand all that long time until retirement.

Congrats on your baby girl!  It's the best trip you'll ever take, and girls are just the best for Daddies too.  It's so much more rewarding than anything else I've ever done and can't imagine my life before my little angel.  Cherish every moment as they grow up so fast - I figure the model stockpile will always be there waiting (for retirement) - but that wonderful little person who thinks you are the most important person in the whole world will only feel that way for 10-12yrs

 

[derex3592]

Perfectly said sir! 

[ivorysniper]

21 hours ago, wm cheng said:

Congrats on your baby girl!  It's the best trip you'll ever take, and girls are just the best for Daddies too.  It's so much more rewarding than anything else I've ever done and can't imagine my life before my little angel.  Cherish every moment as they grow up so fast - I figure the model stockpile will always be there waiting (for retirement) - but that wonderful little person who thinks you are the most important person in the whole world will only feel that way for 10-12yrs

 

Amen to that !!! . She's a blessing to us, and we'll be cherishing every split second of her life with us. You're right on the bullseye when saying girls are definitely for Daddies !!!!

Edited June 14, 2017 by ivorysniper

[no3Ljm]

On 6/12/2017 at 3:44 AM, seti88 said:

AUGUST release!!

I need 2 DX version of this in my life.

 

[seti88]

Heheh not more than 2DX's? for fast pack and arad's version? 

Back to the hase tho, i cant wait to see a beautiful tenjin kairos boxart too! 

[no3Ljm]

4 hours ago, seti88 said:

Heheh not more than 2DX's? for fast pack and arad's version? 

Back to the hase tho, i cant wait to see a beautiful tenjin kairos boxart too! 

Nah. 2 is enough. One for as is and one for custom color planning. No need for Arad's. But, who knows, right? 

 

[seti88]

http://hobby.dengeki.com/news/397567/

Not sure if am reading too much into the translation engine, but i thk hase's 31A will be coming with a fold booster? 

[chyll2]

I think it meant that it will not have fold quartz on the fuselage, the one that is in the chest of the battroid

[seti88]

Come to thk abt it, would make sense for the non fsw A series being the base variants to lack fold quartz that give the high performance walkure valks the edge..

So the fsw valk collar crystals give way to...what, carbon crystals?

[ivorysniper]

3 hours ago, seti88 said:

Come to thk abt it, would make sense for the non fsw A series being the base variants to lack fold quartz that give the high performance walkure valks the edge..

So the fsw valk collar crystals give way to...what, carbon crystals?

Fold carbon instead of fold quartz, according to 'all-mighty' Google Translate, a totally new concept for me. OTM engineers... can you please shed some light here ???

 

Edited June 21, 2017 by ivorysniper

[derex3592]

So if you get stuck flying the 31A....you don't get the "premium package fold quartz" so you get shot down that much faster???...

[seti88]

Waitamin carbon is what makes up coal rite? So the A's are running on coal?? Make macross great again??

[Kelsain]

12 minutes ago, seti88 said:

Waitamin carbon is what makes up coal rite? So the A's are running on coal?? Make macross great again??

Carbon is also diamonds, pencils and a lot of you...

[kajnrig]

Well, I asked in the quick questions thread, so I'll link some answers if there are any.

 

There's also high carbon unmatched Japanese steel...

[seti88]

True but coal is primarily carbon. Thats why diamonds dont burn well hehe...but m interested to hear  more abt these carbon quartz/crystals from the tech gurus here..

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, ivorysniper said:

Fold carbon instead of fold quartz, according to 'all-mighty' Google Translate, a totally new concept for me. OTM engineers... can you please shed some light here ???

 

Sure thing.

Fold carbon is the synthetic crystalline material that is the heart of pretty much any device that operates on super dimension spatial physics like thermonuclear reaction power systems, all forms of fold technology (fold communications, cross-dimensional/fold wave radar, fold systems, etc.), heavy quantum beam weapons, and reaction warheads.  Its main use is that it produces the impossibly high-mass dimension-straddling exotic matter known as heavy quantum when energized.  Heavy quantum's impossible mass produces intense gravity, so much so that if left alone it'll collapse on itself and fuse.  That gravity, properly contained, is used to provide compression and containment of fuel in OTM thermonuclear reactors, to manipulate the fabric of space-time for gravity control and space fold jumps, and its tendency to collapse on itself and fuse is exploited as the mechanism by which most beam weapons in Macross work by collecting a big chunk of heavy quantum and corralling the resulting fusion reaction into a beam (most notably the "main gun" systems, but the little turrets work the same way).

Otherwise, it does all the same stuff fold quartz does (receiving, transmitting, amplifying fold waves) but less well... fold quartz is basically super-high purity fold carbon that humanity isn't able to synthesize (yet, but the Vajra and Protoculture can/could) that produces a better, even more potent form of heavy quantum and thus tends to improve any super dimension-based device when substituted for fold carbon (e.g. fold systems, beam weapons, etc.).

EDIT: Because fold quartz can't be synthesized (yet), it's rare and expensive... and also a heavily regulated substance since it can be used for somewhat less benign purposes like making dimension eater bombs and MDE weaponry.

 

"Big Waist?"  Machine translating has a looooong way to go.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[ivorysniper]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Sure thing.

Fold carbon is the synthetic crystalline material that is the heart of pretty much any device that operates on super dimension spatial physics like thermonuclear reaction power systems, all forms of fold technology (fold communications, cross-dimensional/fold wave radar, fold systems, etc.), heavy quantum beam weapons, and reaction warheads.  Its main use is that it produces the impossibly high-mass dimension-straddling exotic matter known as heavy quantum when energized.  Heavy quantum's impossible mass produces intense gravity, so much so that if left alone it'll collapse on itself and fuse.  That gravity, properly contained, is used to provide compression and containment of fuel in OTM thermonuclear reactors, to manipulate the fabric of space-time for gravity control and space fold jumps, and its tendency to collapse on itself and fuse is exploited as the mechanism by which most beam weapons in Macross work by collecting a big chunk of heavy quantum and corralling the resulting fusion reaction into a beam (most notably the "main gun" systems, but the little turrets work the same way).

Otherwise, it does all the same stuff fold quartz does (receiving, transmitting, amplifying fold waves) but less well... fold quartz is basically super-high purity fold carbon that humanity isn't able to synthesize (yet, but the Vajra and Protoculture can/could) that produces a better, even more potent form of heavy quantum and thus tends to improve any super dimension-based device when substituted for fold carbon (e.g. fold systems, beam weapons, etc.).

EDIT: Because fold quartz can't be synthesized (yet), it's rare and expensive... and also a heavily regulated substance since it can be used for somewhat less benign purposes like making dimension eater bombs and MDE weaponry.

 

"Big Waist?"  Machine translating has a looooong way to go.

Home run !... Perfectly explained and well understood. Thanks a lot for the into and the time dedicated.

[seti88]

Thanks for the explanation seto, having never tot there was such a thing as fold carbon, i would have tot the translation a machine translation error! 

[Kelsain]

See, now this very nice description also explains why Vajra could be seen nesting in derelict ships. In the series and movies, Vajra nests were located in a wrecked Guantanamo, the SDFN-04 and a Bodol-Zer command ship. Since the Vajra actively mine fold carbon to metabolize into fold quartz, and fold carbon is used in super-dimensional systems and weapons, there would be a lot of it available in these old vessels. 

[spacemanoeuvres]

Ah so tempted to pick this up but I don't have the time or modeling chops to make it look decent. 

Sweet lookin bird!

[ivorysniper]

Now, this is the first time we see two big chunks of fold carbon installed on a VF... actually a mass-produced VF. Would it be safe to assume the Kairos represents a quantum leap in VF technology and not only a discrete step forward on improvement ?.

Quartz-blessed variable fighters, since their introduction in Macross timeline with the YF-29, were always hero-machines, far from being mass-produced due to prohibitive costs. Not sure if the -31A performance stats confirm the Kairos being far superior to latest mass-produced machines like the Messiah (I'm kicking the Lucifer out of this equation due to its known lack of sportsmanship, haha). Where could I find the Kairos (and the Sigfried too) stats?

Apologies in advance for deviating from the topic.

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, seti88 said:

Thanks for the explanation seto, having never tot there was such a thing as fold carbon, i would have tot the translation a machine translation error! 

The earliest direct mention of a crystalline resonator being involved in the function of fold-based devices goes back to Macross VF-X2.  The improved "subspace resonance lens" that was the basis for Critical Path's "magic flute" and Jamming Sound system is implied by the Frontier novelization to be one of the first real applications of fold quartz after its discovery.  (They imply therein that Critical Path sponsored the 117th Research Fleet that was destroyed by the Vajra, and that Ozma was dishonorably discharged from the NUNS for assaulting their CEO during the debrief.)

 

 

6 hours ago, Kelsain said:

See, now this very nice description also explains why Vajra could be seen nesting in derelict ships. In the series and movies, Vajra nests were located in a wrecked Guantanamo, the SDFN-04 and a Bodol-Zer command ship. Since the Vajra actively mine fold carbon to metabolize into fold quartz, and fold carbon is used in super-dimensional systems and weapons, there would be a lot of it available in these old vessels. 

Hadn't thought of that, to be honest... but it'd certainly explain a few things.

 

 

1 hour ago, ivorysniper said:

Now, this is the first time we see two big chunks of fold carbon installed on a VF... actually a mass-produced VF. Would it be safe to assume the Kairos represents a quantum leap in VF technology and not only a discrete step forward on improvement ?.

Nope.  In all fairness, that beautiful VF-31A Kairos represents neither a quantum leap nor a discrete step forward.  Were I forced to pick a short, pithy descriptor for it I would have to go with "economy model".  It's not exactly a surprise that it would be, given that one of the few details we're told of the prevailing situation out in the space boonies of the Brisingr globular cluster is that they're cash-strapped and economically underdeveloped worlds who will still be flying the Block II VF-171 a decade after the rest of the galaxy started to broom it.  (A not-inconsiderable number of the VF-31A's parts are "off the shelf" slightly newer variants of hardware developed for the Block 1 VF-25.  Irritatingly, this carried over to the Master File book, which recycles a LOT of content from the VF-25 book.)

 

1 hour ago, ivorysniper said:

Quartz-blessed variable fighters, since their introduction in Macross timeline with the YF-29, were always hero-machines, far from being mass-produced due to prohibitive costs. Not sure if the -31A performance stats confirm the Kairos being far superior to latest mass-produced machines like the Messiah (I'm kicking the Lucifer out of this equation due to its known lack of sportsmanship, haha). Where could I find the Kairos (and the Sigfried too) stats?

The Compendium's got a modest version of the official spec (M3 articles for Delta are in the works).  I did a fairly wordy comparison of the two a while back which can be found on the link below:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/42189-avf-discussion-thread/?page=21#comment-1317676

The short version is that the trial production VF-31A Kairos in 2067 is projected to be comparable or slightly inferior to the trial production VF-25A from 2059.  This is mostly because it offers an airframe oriented around low-altitude atmospheric service and short-ranged combat rather than balanced all-regime performance, and its negligible output improvement didn't offset its increase in mass from the ordinance container.  It probably compares unfavorably to the current production model VF-25 in 2067.

[seti88]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The earliest direct mention of a crystalline resonator being involved in the function of fold-based devices goes back to Macross VF-X2.  The improved "subspace resonance lens" that was the basis for Critical Path's "magic flute" and Jamming Sound system is implied by the Frontier novelization to be one of the first real applications of fold quartz after its discovery.  (They imply therein that Critical Path sponsored the 117th Research Fleet that was destroyed by the Vajra, and that Ozma was dishonorably discharged from the NUNS for assaulting their CEO during the debrief.)

Thats a long history, i like the way the lore has stood up and expanded over the years. Am still wrapping my head around protoculture, no points to Robotech perhaps haha...
I dont thk i will ever be able to comprehend the intricacies of it all..

As for the 31 kit itself...pics from some jap modellers who got the J..

Edited June 23, 2017 by seti88

[ivorysniper]

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nope.  In all fairness, that beautiful VF-31A Kairos represents neither a quantum leap nor a discrete step forward.  Were I forced to pick a short, pithy descriptor for it I would have to go with "economy model".  It's not exactly a surprise that it would be, given that one of the few details we're told of the prevailing situation out in the space boonies of the Brisingr globular cluster is that they're cash-strapped and economically underdeveloped worlds who will still be flying the Block II VF-171 a decade after the rest of the galaxy started to broom it.  (A not-inconsiderable number of the VF-31A's parts are "off the shelf" slightly newer variants of hardware developed for the Block 1 VF-25.  Irritatingly, this carried over to the Master File book, which recycles a LOT of content from the VF-25 book.)

The Compendium's got a modest version of the official spec (M3 articles for Delta are in the works).  I did a fairly wordy comparison of the two a while back which can be found on the link below:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/42189-avf-discussion-thread/?page=21#comment-1317676

The short version is that the trial production VF-31A Kairos in 2067 is projected to be comparable or slightly inferior to the trial production VF-25A from 2059.  This is mostly because it offers an airframe oriented around low-altitude atmospheric service and short-ranged combat rather than balanced all-regime performance, and its negligible output improvement didn't offset its increase in mass from the ordinance container.  It probably compares unfavorably to the current production model VF-25 in 2067.

 

The 'economy model' is a very interesting approach I didn't think of. Thank you for the great insight !.

Thank you also for the directions (I easily earned the ice cream treat, btw). So, basically, the requirement for modularity and mission-based ordnance customization sacrificed all-around performance. That container proves to weigh much more than 200 kgs, even carrying the lightest payload (although on a 1-on-1 ELINT variant comparison, I would think of a greater performance advantage to a container-packed radar suit vs. the cumbersome RVF-25 add-on pack). Getting carried away a little bit... I would imagine how difficult would be to control Luca's machine on atmospheric final approach without the assistance of the ARIEL II.

[Lord_Of_Tetris]

10 hours ago, seti88 said:

Thats a long history, i like the way the lore has stood up and expanded over the years. Am still wrapping my head around protoculture, no points to Robotech perhaps haha...
I dont thk i will ever be able to comprehend the intricacies of it all..

As for the 31 kit itself...pics from some jap modellers who got the J..

 

Hmm. I'm both relieved and kind of disappointed at the stickers. 

Relief, because some of the stickers are 1 piece whereas they would be several pieces on other kits. For example, the Hasegawa YF-19 and YF-21 have several stickers around the cockpit area, whereas the VF-31 has the blue stripe, white stripe, gray area, red triangles, and Delta 05 designation all as 1 sticker. Whew. I find waterslide decals a pain in the butt, and I'd rather apply 1 sticker instead of 5 tiny ones.

I'm also disappointed, though, because the stickers don't have enough coverage for the colored parts of the jet. I understand that jet model kits are frequently cast in 1 color of plastic, and these rely heavily on painting. Look, I get it. I've built several Hasegawa jet kits.

However, the VF-11, VF-0, YF-19, and YF-21 (AKA the kits I've built) were essentially 1-color jets with small splashes of color here and there for details. You could conceivably build a decent-looking jet using only the decals.

The VF-31 is not a 1-color jet with colors here and there for details. The VF-31 has large areas that are white, large areas that are blue, and large areas that are gray. Would it kill Hasegawa to use different colored plastics? A kit with blue and white plastic would be fine. A kit with blue, white, and gray plastic would be better.

With the VF-31 kit, even if you applied all the stickers, there would still be large areas that mandate painting, such as making the wings blue. :/

[wm cheng]

I'm exactly the opposite.  I would prefer the decals to be separate pieces instead of one large sheet.  I have the option of painting those areas and just want the 05 or ejection triangles or even do my own scheme and just have the data stenciling.  Also large sheets of decals tend to obscure fine panel lines and makes those details less sharp when its laid over top and I have to use a lot of MicroSOL and re-cut the panel lines with a knife to let the recessed details show beneath (otherwise it looks just like a sticker over top of the panel lines).  Also the larger the decal, the more chance of something going wrong, wrinkling or ripping.

I hate models that are molded in different colours as I always have to prime them anyways to make sure all the seams are properly filled and sanded.  Then I gotta get the base colour all the same to get an even canvas to start painting (harder if you have a dark colour plastic right next to something else).  Also how do you stretch large colour decals over doubled curved surfaces without it wrinkling or folding (decals don't stretch that well and MicroSOL only works to a certain degree).  I can't stand bare plastic as they never match up to the decal tone/hue anyways and bare plastic just looks like a toy. 

That all being said, I think the Hasegawa models are for a different kind of modeler (someone like me who is a bit of a sucker for pain :P) - they are more geared to builders who paint.  While Bandai makes kits that are molded in colour and more friendly to builders who don't paint as much.

[slide]

Just now, wm cheng said:

That all being said, I think the Hasegawa models are for a different kind of modeler (someone like me who is a bit of a sucker for pain :P) - they are more geared to builders who paint.  While Bandai makes kits that are molded in colour and more friendly to builders who don't paint as much.

Hase's kits are more for folks like me who build/paint "regular" scale models. I'm with Mr Cheng... I'd rather cut a mask out of paper/tape myself and paint it... though I will admit the thought of doing all of Delta Squadron that way gives me pause...

Bandai's seem more for the Gunpla crowd... who seem to skew towards younger folks or folks new to models, and folks who have only so much time/effort they can devote to 1 kit. [No offense/elitism is intended here, I am in awe of some of the thing's I've seen done with Gunpla over the years]

 

aside:

I'm not even certain how to classify some of Bandai's kits anymore... comparing a Bandai kit to Revell, Trumpeter, Eduard or even Tamiya is not an apples-to-apples comparison, though Tamiya's recent 1/32 warbirds are marvels themselves, it's still not quite the same thing as Bandai's 1/72 transforming VFs, or a Real/Perfect-Grade Gundam.

Bandai's engineering is a whole other level [partly because they've been making anime-magic Gundams a reality for... 45+ years now?] which allows them to be this odd half-way between "models" and "toys/action figures".

they're also what I would have called a "Skill level 1 kit" [meaning you only need a set of snippers and a bit of sandpaper to get a nice result] but that is in no way an indication of detail, or any other limitation imposed on the modeler because "it's just a cheap snap-tite kit". these are full-fledged models made to be simple enough for anyone to build, and get a piece they can proudly display when they're done.

The Real-Grade line is simply a marvel to behold, let alone build...

Their Macross offerings continue to improve and impress. Though not perfect, they are continually moving closer.

They've broken the mold as it were... and more power to them! They are [on] the cutting edge at the moment.

[Lord_Of_Tetris]

Ah, I see. In all honesty, I wasn't thinking of the kit that way. My preference for model kits is more the Bandai variety. I don't consider myself unskilled, though with 8 hours of work a day, laundry, gym, cooking, doing dishes, etc, I only get to build for ~30 minutes and only 2-3 times a week. I tend to gravitate more towards the Bandai-esque type of kit.

I've built other Hasegawa's kits, such as the YF-21 and YF-19, which didn't require too much paint because those jets didn't have large surfaces that were a different color from the plastic.

And so, when I see a new model kit, my initial assessment is based more on the Bandai/Gunpla preference.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Lord_Of_Tetris

[slide]

Just now, Lord_Of_Tetris said:

Ah, I see. In all honesty, I wasn't thinking of the kit that way. My preference for model kits is more the Bandai variety. I don't consider myself unskilled, though with 8 hours of work a day, laundry, gym, cooking, doing dishes, etc, I only get to build for ~30 minutes and only 2-3 times a week. I tend to gravitate more towards the Bandai-esque type of kit.

I've built other Hasegawa's kits, such as the YF-21 and YF-19, which didn't require too much paint because those jets didn't have large surfaces that were a different color from the plastic.

And so, when I see a new model kit, my initial assessment is based more on the Bandai/Gunpla preference.

different strokes I guess, it's all good 

Models and the building thereof has been my chief hobby since I was 6... I'm beginning to look at kits like: "that's a nice starting point... but I'll get the resin cockpit, accurate afterburner cans, replacement antennae, weapons pylons, weapons, resculpt this, rescribe that... on and on and on" lol.

I'm also glad I'm not a warship modeler... that's too much photo-etch for my ADD to handle!

[chyll2]

my concern with the decal is color matching the blue and gray that you would use to paint the plastic.

[Hiryu]

On 6/24/2017 at 5:40 AM, chyll2 said:

my concern with the decal is color matching the blue and gray that you would use to paint the plastic.

Yes, this. I think I'm more excited about the 31A kit. That one comes with Arad's skull logo decal too which is cool. I also think this would look great in a Max paint scheme ala his VF-22 from M7, replacing the gray with that sweet light blue.