This was bound to happen...gray market VF's?

[Vifam7]

1 hour ago, Kanedas Bike said:

But for my point of view, it's not about what's fair - it's a matter of integrity, and apparent lack thereof. The folks producing these bootlegged/stolen items aren't doing it to better the conditions of any exploited class of people, they're doing it for a quick profit. In many ways it's way more unscrupulous than the businesses you're willing to hurt or lecture about going with cheap labor or not being innovative enough.

 

Quote

Only the bootlegging people do not care about IPs, laws, trade-agreements and stuff. 

They only care about stealing money. 

Bootleggng operations are often linked to organized crime (Mafias and Triads).  I'm not saying Macross KO toys are linked to them but it is something to think about before one starts justifying bootlegs.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Vifam7

[davidwhangchoi]

11 hours ago, chyll2 said:

just for comparison, the Bootleg or copy of the Metal build gundam (seven sword) usually cost 40% of the SRP of Bandai. The quality is almost the same (it has better joint but the clear piece is not that clear). Price of the the Original toy from our local scene drop a lil bit but not much. Japan pricing is still the same, Mandarake can still sell it at high price. The price of the legit one only changed when Bandai made a pseudo re-issue of Seven Sword (with the /G) with a slight price increase and afaik, Bandai has sold out its Pre-order slot.

 

I think most of you are correct that these KO or Bootleg will not really hurt arcadia since we all know, we all jumped on getting VF-1J Miria and will do the same for VF-1J Max.

 

re: Metal Builds, that actually incorrect info. If has affected their profits and they've been vigilant about banning sales of KO's.

I know someone who's been hired by Bandai's division. prior, he used to be pro KO and argue for it on and on until he started working for the company.    

[Boobytrap]

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

I'm finding this discussion really fascinating. Some really good info here. This is one of my favorite threads atm. 

I'm right there with you. I have really been enjoying this discussion and seeing all of the different viewpoints.

Probably my favorite part of this thread is that it demonstrates what a great community we have here. All of us have different opinions from one extreme to another and all of the varying shades in between. Yet this has been quite a civil discourse with people treating others with respect even though they may not agree on the topic.

That is quite rare today in any form of communication, especially anonymous internet boards.

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

It seems like the bootleggers are going to be offering a rod yf-29b version of the yf-29 super parts. This I believe is the first example of them making a significant change in a product.

Interest piqued. Got a link by any chance?

[Lorindor]

Yeah, this is a rare civil discussion on a controversial topic. Good job guys!

[Sandman]

2 hours ago, Boobytrap said:

Interest piqued. Got a link by any chance?

 

https://world.taobao.com/item/552248947922.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.6HE7JW#detail

its not really exciting. They don't have one painted up yet for a pic. It looks like you can select either alto of rod's if you trust the text.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Sandman

[no3Ljm]

3 hours ago, Sandman said:

It seems like the bootleggers are going to be offering a rod yf-29b version of the yf-29 super parts. This I believe is the first example of them making a significant change in a product.

6 minutes ago, Sandman said:

https://world.taobao.com/item/552248947922.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.6HE7JW#detail

its not really exciting. They don't have one painted up yet for a pic. It looks like you can select either alto of rod's if you trust the text.

I don't see any difference from the original so I can't say that they did a significant change. It still uses the same mold only recolored differently.

But curious to see the color for Rod's YF-29.

 

[Chronocidal]

18 hours ago, ZorClone said:

Non-transforming anything from SDFM.  Fan racers.  Enemy fighters.  Lancers.  Character figures.  Little scale ARMD carriers and capital ships in scale with each other like the Eaglemoss Star Trek lineup.  If they had a lineup of products of those items in the $25-$50 range, they wouldn't be able to make them fast enough.

That Lancer they're doing is one step forward and 5 steps backward.  Same with the 1/60 Regult.  frakking stupid of Yamato to make that niche within a niche within a niche and charge out the nose for it.

I think "niche within a niche within a niche" is a fairly accurate definition of the Lancer honestly.  I mean, seriously, it's literally a box with guns barrels on one end, and a propeller-looking antenna that would have most kids thinking it's a helicopter, and promptly snap it off trying to spin it.  People want it for the nostalgia alone, but it has absolutely zero marketable play value as a toy.  I frankly think it's amazing that they even took the time and effort to make the kit of it.

I don't think Arcadia is ever going to make anything cheap, bottom line.  They know they're a collector-focused company, and make products for the people who have the money to blow on such things.  I'm perfectly okay with this honestly, and I'll keep buying stuff they make if I like it.

Macross is a hot property again with the recent series, and more and more companies are jumping on board, and filling the gaps in merchandising.  Frankly speaking, I don't think Arcadia is big enough to compete with most of them, so I don't blame them for sticking to the high end collectors market, and hanging on for dear life to the few in-demand items they still have a license hold on.  I mean, let's face it, all that stuff you want them to make may already be claimed by someone else with deeper pockets and larger production capability.  We know how long Bandai loves to pre-plan, and I wouldn't bet against them already having licenses for everything from the Gnerl fighterpod to the Catseye waiting in the wings.

=====================================================

That being said though, the pricing is a separate issue from the bootlegging.

I've got zero issues with them making knock-offs of the exclusives that Bandai isn't interested in reissuing, or even making, in the case of Rod's super packs.  That's their loss for being jerks to their customers.  Maybe the bootlegs will give them a swift kick in the backside and make them realize how much demand there is for those items.  Or maybe they won't care.  Who knows at this point?

But yeah.  Knock-off VF-1s?  No.  Arcadia's still making them, and the costs aren't going to decrease any time soon, unless they overproduce again like Yamato.  But I'd be astounded if they didn't learn from that the first time around, and will work to prevent it.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Chronocidal

[Sandman]

12 minutes ago, no3Ljm said:

I don't see any difference from the original so I can't say that they did a significant change. It still uses the same mold only recolored differently.

But curious to see the color for Rod's YF-29.

 

Well, the color change is what I meant by significant change. Up till now, they have planned to release only products that have been available through bandai or arcadia. There has never been a Rod colored version so even if the mold is the same, the end product is something that hasn't been released before.

I'd love to see a mock-up of the color they plan to use.

[Boobytrap]

21 minutes ago, Sandman said:

https://world.taobao.com/item/552248947922.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.6HE7JW#detail

its not really exciting. They don't have one painted up yet for a pic. It looks like you can select either alto of rod's if you trust the text.

Thanks for the link. You're right, not much to look at yet. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it though. I never understood why Bandai didn't make this one. Even if interest was fading from all the YF-29's they made I'm sure they could have still sold enough to make some money on it.

[Sandman]

1 minute ago, Boobytrap said:

Thanks for the link. You're right, not much to look at yet. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it though. I never understood why Bandai didn't make this one. Even if interest was fading from all the YF-29's they made I'm sure they could have still sold enough to make some money on it.

Yeah they probably have data that says out of x number of yf-29s are sold, y number are sold of the fast pack.

[treatment]

15 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

=====================================================

That being said though, the pricing is a separate issue from the bootlegging.

I've got zero issues with them making knock-offs of the exclusives that Bandai isn't interested in reissuing, or even making, in the case of Rod's super packs.  That's their loss for being jerks to their customers.  Maybe the bootlegs will give them a swift kick in the backside and make them realize how much demand there is for those items.  Or maybe they won't care.  Who knows at this point?

But yeah.  Knock-off VF-1s?  No.  Arcadia's still making them, and the costs aren't going to decrease any time soon, unless they overproduce again like Yamato.  But I'd be astounded if they didn't learn from that the first time around, and will work to prevent it.

 

re: Arcadia

I think Arcadia just got smart about the crazy situation. 

The way I see it is that Arcadia witnessed how much the scalpers have ludicrously priced the Yammie VF-1's (even Kaki's!) on YJA, Mandy and other 2nd-hand shops, and prolly even got shocked to see alot of people still willingly bought 'em at those stupidly high pricings.  Cracking shoulders and other issues, notwithstanding.

So why not them, too, right?

At least their high pricing ain't as ludicrous as the scalpers', and that their stuff are indeed new official products with slight improvements and what-nots. 

We can whine all day long about their pricing not being yamato's of old, but that's just how their market is currently willing to pay for their products.

 

 

 

[ZorClone]

19 hours ago, treatment said:

 

So how're they gonna fund making these $25-$50 items? 

Are you that sure that the japanese market will buy them in droves and stuff to make and sustain profits and revenues?

How much should they pay the laborers and factories for these?

I'm an IT guy so I couldn't answer that question with any real action plan but I can point to companies that already do it.  Me and my incredible lack of business acumen still understands that a company that has strong competition yet still offers a wide range of good/better products at different (low to high) price points is going to be a leader.  You can't sell it if you don't make it.  And if all you do is sell the same stuff you did 10 years ago and increase the price on it by 100% and solid competition comes along at a better price...

Don't get me wrong though.  I did say solid competition, and not just copycat KO thievery out to get a quick buck.  I would support a proper 3P innovation on the VF-1 at 1/60, or any accessories for them.

[Sandman]

On 6/7/2017 at 9:49 PM, Slave IV said:

 

@Arcadia, my advise to you is to make the very best products you can, especially when we are talking about an old design you've been milking for 10 years. It's disgraceful to come to this day and call a few tampos that you should have included from the start, "premium". Every VF-1 you put out should be decked out with tampos, details, accessories, features, etc. that put the old Yamato versions to shame. Each release should make owners of the old versions chomp at the bits to get the new one because it's so much better. Instead, you have people who already own the old versions contemplate why they would want to spend twice as much and get something they don't even consider as good as what they already got years ago and in many cases, completely pass on the new one.

2

This is a good point. Arcadia is really behind the game by not offering all tampos instead of stickers. Charging extra for that is a blatant cash grab. Unfortunately considering how well they have sold out, most fans seem to onboard for this stealth price increase.

[Slave IV]

1 minute ago, Sandman said:

This is a good point. Arcadia is really behind the game by not offering all tampos instead of stickers. Charging extra for that is a blatant cash grab. Unfortunately considering how well they have sold out, most fans seem to onboard for this stealth price increase.

Not so sure how "stealth" that price increase is since it's about $100.

Anyways, I support Arcadia by buying pretty much all their releases and am happy they are putting out Valks I missed out on. I just have no loyalty to any corporation and just let the market offer me what I want. If someone else beats them, I'm all for it. Competition is good for consumers, whether some think it's fair competition or not.

[Sandman]

24 minutes ago, Slave IV said:

Not so sure how "stealth" that price increase is since it's about $100.

 

 

I mean stealth as in regards that I jokingly came up with this theory that this is an attempt from Arcadia to raise the price of the vf-1 by first claiming its a premium release until they eventually stop releasing the non-premium vfs and the premium becomes the standard releases (with the higher price) moving forward.

[Slave IV]

7 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I mean stealth as in regards that I jokingly came up with this theory that this is an attempt from Arcadia to raise the price of the vf-1 by first claiming its a premium release until they eventually stop releasing the non-premium vfs and the premium becomes the standard releases (with the higher price) moving forward.

Yeah, I'm basically implying they should do that and more...except not with the ridiculous price increase.

[nhyone]

On 6/9/2017 at 3:48 AM, Vifam7 said:

Bootleggng operations are often linked to organized crime (Mafias and Triads). 

This may be true in the 90s, but my impression is that, from the mid-2000s onwards, it's from entrepreneurs who could "do the same" for much cheaper.

While KO companies start off copying, they often do their own designs later.

[treatment]

Wonder if the KO-people will ever dare to produce and sell their bootleg-version of Yamato's 1/12 Votoms mechs.  The Yamato 1/12 Votoms line looks quite an untapped and potentially more lucrative and ripe bootlegging market than the Macross bootleg-market in comparison.  Scalpers seems to have been having field days on even the crappy 1/12-v1s pricings ever since Yamato folded.

---

At any rate, anybody found any pics or bbs/forum "reviews" of actual pre-release samples of the bootleg VF-1 1/60v2, yet?    

Edited June 14, 2017 by treatment

[jenius]

That reminds me.... I have to take pictures of a ton of Yamato 1/12 Votoms stuff and sell it off... it is taking up way too much space. Those were really intricate toys with lots of parts... seems like it wouldn't be cheap to knock it off and it took a long time for them to be sought after. 

[claude grant]

Hey jenius, please check your PM when you get the chance.

 

[no3Ljm]

12 hours ago, jenius said:

That reminds me.... I have to take pictures of a ton of Yamato 1/12 Votoms stuff and sell it off... it is taking up way too much space. Those were really intricate toys with lots of parts... seems like it wouldn't be cheap to knock it off and it took a long time for them to be sought after. 

Hey Jenius. Just in case you're reviewing some pics of the Votoms, can you please check my sticker PM again. Thanks!

 

[jenius]

Sorry,  school has been in the way but I have every intention to pull out my Votoms toys... sadly, no timeline when it will happen. I also want to play with my Patlabor toys more. 

[Slave IV]

Back to the discussion of the validity of these items...

For those who claim the moral high horse stance, does that mean you do not buy Macross items outside of Japan that are not licensed by HG? Because if you do, you are stealing from HG and theft is theft, stealing is stealing, right? 

Just another reason why I don't take legal crutches seriously.

[Boobytrap]

I'm not aware of any officially licensed Macross items that are not sold second hand outside of Japan. Do you have any examples? All of the Macross products that I have purchased have come from retailers in Japan or from the second hand market.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Boobytrap

[Vifam7]

7 minutes ago, Slave IV said:

Back to the discussion of the validity of these items...

For those who claim the moral high horse stance, does that mean you do not buy Macross items outside of Japan that are not licensed by HG? Because if you do, you are stealing from HG and theft is theft, stealing is stealing, right? 

Just another reason why I don't take legal crutches seriously.

Poor example since HG stole the rights from Big West. 

 

[no3Ljm]

4 minutes ago, Slave IV said:

Back to the discussion of the validity of these items...

For those who claim the moral high horse stance, does that mean you do not buy Macross items outside of Japan that are not licensed by HG? Because if you do, you are stealing from HG and theft is theft, stealing is stealing, right? 

Just another reason why I don't take legal crutches seriously.

Wait. We're still discussing the validity of these things? Can we just wait first until we see actual product photos of these so-called KO Macross Products before continuing this discussion again? 

To answer your question, yes. I did bought an 'SDF-1' looking SD figure that transforms right here in the US. Why? Because it's a cute looking figure. And I didn't steal anything from Harmony Gold. Why? Because what I bought didn't came from their head. What they own is just a copyright.

And to be honest, if only they would just produce cool looking figures or transforming toys worth to collect and in-par with what we get from the cool Japan-based companies, then I'm all for it. And in fact, I'm just waiting for their PO date on their upcoming Ichijo Hikaru, err, I mean Rick Hunter 1/6 action figure. And I don't mind nor care if people here will hate me for that. As long that it's worth my penny, then it's all good. 

 

[no3Ljm]

14 minutes ago, Boobytrap said:

I'm not aware of any officially licensed Macross items that are not sold second hand outside of Japan. Do you have any examples? All of the Macross products that I have purchased have come from retailers in Japan or from the second hand market.

The only one I can think of, and bought one, is the Master Made SDF-1 Makuros.

 

[Slave IV]

14 minutes ago, Boobytrap said:

I'm not aware of any officially licensed Macross items that are not sold second hand outside of Japan. Do you have any examples? All of the Macross products that I have purchased have come from retailers in Japan or from the second hand market.

But it's technically illegal to sell the products to anyone outside of Japan according to international law. So in a way, the Japanese retailers who sell Macross items to anyone outside Japan, along with the people buying them are breaking international law and "stealing".

6 minutes ago, Vifam7 said:

Poor example since HG stole the rights from Big West. 

 

But Big West has made no legal move to prove it. So HG is breaking Japanese law, stealing from BW, BW is breaking International law and stealing from HG.

1 minute ago, no3Ljm said:

Wait. We're still discussing the validity of these things? Can we just wait first until we see actual product photos of these so-called KO Macross Products before continuing this discussion again? 

To answer your question, yes. I did bought an 'SDF-1' looking SD figure that transforms right here in the US. Why? Because it's a cute looking figure. And I didn't steal anything from Harmony Gold. Why? Because what I bought didn't came from their head. What they own is just a copyright.

And to be honest, if only they would just produce cool looking figures or transforming toys worth to collect and in-par with what we get from the cool Japan-based companies, then I'm all for it. And in fact, I'm just waiting for their PO date on their upcoming Ichijo Hikaru, err, I mean Rick Hunter 1/6 action figure. And I don't mind nor care if people here will hate me for that. As long that it's worth my penny, then it's all good. 

 

I agree and just continuing the interesting discussion while we all wait to see the final products. Mainly, just pointing out that it's not so clear cut to claim to be "moral" and call others thieves so quickly. To me, almost all businesses are criminal to the sustainability of human life so you will never see me calling someone else as being immoral for the choices they make in the business world unless I'm just stating the obvious without judgement.

[Boobytrap]

29 minutes ago, Slave IV said:

But it's technically illegal to sell the products to anyone outside of Japan according to international law. So in a way, the Japanese retailers who sell Macross items to anyone outside Japan, along with the people buying them are breaking international law and "stealing".

Are you sure about that? I'm certainly no expert on international law, but isn't the limitation on Macross items being sold limited to the parent company that owns the rights (Big West) and those they lease the license to (Bandai, Arcadia, etc...)? Those companies are required to sell to retailers in Japan. But once the product is sold those retailers are free to sell to wherever they please, right? If they were violating HG's rights I would have thought that they would have been all too happy to sue them and enforce a cease/desist of the practice.

[Slave IV]

17 minutes ago, Boobytrap said:

Are you sure about that? I'm certainly no expert on international law, but isn't the limitation on Macross items being sold limited to the parent company that owns the rights (Big West) and those they lease the license to (Bandai, Arcadia, etc...)? Those companies are required to sell to retailers in Japan. But once the product is sold those retailers are free to sell to wherever they please, right? If they were violating HG's rights I would have thought that they would have been all too happy to sue them and enforce a cease/desist of the practice.

I'm not a lawyer either but my understanding is that HG has all international rights to Macross so anything outside of Japan must be approved by HG. The products we are all buying are for the Japanese market only.

[Chronocidal]

51 minutes ago, Boobytrap said:

Are you sure about that? I'm certainly no expert on international law, but isn't the limitation on Macross items being sold limited to the parent company that owns the rights (Big West) and those they lease the license to (Bandai, Arcadia, etc...)? Those companies are required to sell to retailers in Japan. But once the product is sold those retailers are free to sell to wherever they please, right? If they were violating HG's rights I would have thought that they would have been all too happy to sue them and enforce a cease/desist of the practice.

It is a good point.  I think if HG even had any possible inkling of a legal precedent that would allow them to cry foul at people buying Macross merchandise on the second-hand market, they would have been attempting to sue Ebay for all they're worth years ago.

Longer discussion on this spoilered, so as not to clog up the thread anymore.

Spoiler

 

It might not be kosher for retailers to sell the items on the international market, but even then, is it actually a legal issue, or is it more of a Big West telling them "No, you can't sell to these people or we'll refuse to do business with you" situation?

Even if that is the case, Big West doesn't seem even remotely interested in enforcing their own policies, because the flow of Macross merchandise across the ocean via a large number of export shops doesn't seem to be restricted in any way.

At the moment, I'd say the best comparison is probably Star Wars merchandise, because it's run into a similar international issue in that Disney is enforcing region locks of a sort on a lot of merchandise.  Bottom line in that situation though is that if Disney didn't shove the American-made products into all the retail stores, Revell would probably go under, because anything Bandai produces would utterly destroy their sales if it was widely available.  Now, it still is available, but only through what I assume are under-the-table deals through sellers on Amazon and Ebay who acquire the kits in their proper region, and export them. 

The question is, are those deals actually illegal?  Disney granted a license to Bandai to manufacture and sell Star Wars merchandise in Japan, but they're not allowed to sell it to other regions, and they aren't.  But is it Bandai's fault if individuals buy Japanese merchandise, and sell it overseas?  Would Disney have grounds to pursue legal action against private citizens who buy Bandai products, and send them to the United States?  They didn't sign a contract with Disney not to do that, Bandai did, and Bandai isn't doing it.

The case with HG though feels even more clear cut.  There is no international agreement, because Japan doesn't acknowledge HG's claim on the property.  Bandai still obviously limits their production and marketing to Japan, but they can't control what private citizens do with their merchandise once purchased, and really, why would they care if they're stepping on HG's toes?  They're selling their product.

HG has gone after import shops based in the United States though, which I believe is why BBTS stopped carrying any Macross merchandise.  But as long as the products are being bought directly from Japan, HG doesn't have any say in what people spend their money on.

I do think there needs to be some clarification though.  People break contracts all the time.  They're agreements that are made with penalties embedded in them for failure to comply.  Is breaking one actually illegal?  You place yourself at risk of having the contract stipulations brought down on you, but you agreed to those when you signed.

 

As far as BW breaking international law and stealing from HG?  Good. I hope they keep stealing from them until HG evaporates in a poof of inconsequence.

Anyway though, we're getting way off the bootlegging issue, and it's morphing into another Big West vs HG discussion.

I'm seriously waiting to see if any of the bootleg Macross merchandise will be worth the trouble of acquiring it.  If it can fill a market gap that official sources aren't interested in filling, then great, but I'm not holding my breath.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Chronocidal

[treatment]

57 minutes ago, Slave IV said:

I'm not a lawyer either but my understanding is that HG has all international rights to Macross so anything outside of Japan must be approved by HG. The products we are all buying are for the Japanese market only.

Really has nothing to do with the KO/bootlegs.

Whatever HG shenanigans there is, it is non-sequitur to this thread. 

It has its own thread.

 

 

[Slave IV]

5 minutes ago, treatment said:

Really has nothing to do with the KO/bootlegs.

Whatever HG shenanigans there is, it is non-sequitur to this thread. 

It has its own thread.

 

 

It was just a point to make with the people who say "stealing is stealing" and judging the ko manufacturers. Main point is I don't care about any of it. Just the best product for my money and there is no need to bring morals and laws into this because there are no morals or laws that people don't break.

[treatment]

2 minutes ago, Slave IV said:

It was just a point to make with the people who say "stealing is stealing" and judging the ko manufacturers. Main point is I don't care about any of it. Just the best product for my money and there is no need to bring morals and laws into this because there are no morals or laws that people don't break.

Anything HG-related is really a different subject matter altogether.  It's ownership/trademark/licensing contention.

It does not apply to this thread and does not apply to the KO/Bootleg manufacturers at all.

KO/Bootleg manufacturers do not have any rights to do any contesting.

[Slave IV]

2 minutes ago, treatment said:

Anything HG-related is really a different subject matter altogether.  It's ownership/trademark/licensing contention.

It does not apply to this thread and does not apply to the KO/Bootleg manufacturers at all.

KO/Bootleg manufacturers do not have any rights to do any contesting.

Stealing is stealing. Legal technicalities...whatever. Again, I don't care other than to point out there is no need to talk about who is morally better than who in this thread. If the KO turns out good and you want to buy it, go for it! If you won't buy kos under any circumstance, fine but don't need to act like it's because you are more moral than others. That is all.