X-Men: Dark Phoenix

[kalvasflam]

Hey, I thought JLaw was tired of X-men movies, and weren't going to do them any more.  I guess she realized that it's still great money in showing up and having blue makeup slathered on, right?

As far as Disney and X-men are concerned, I'm sure it's in Sideshow Bob's plan to eventually bring all of Marvel's assets back into the fold.  I am curious though on how they plan to close out the MCU.  They have taken this thing pretty far, but all good things must come to an end.  I'm not sure I see an Avengers 5..  Although I suppose those guys could be persuaded for the right amount of money.   I mean after Thanos, they need to start up a new arc, and that might be problematic.

Hope they do a good job with this one though.

[David Hingtgen]

I don't think it's a good sign, that of like 5 official/semi-official trailer channels on Youtube with it, only a single one I've come across actually has HER as the thumbnail.  Half show or say Jlaw inatead, the rest are Xavier/Cyclops.  

[sh9000]

 

[renegadeleader1]

15 hours ago, Mommar said:

That’s what Magneto has said in the comics before.  He’s the embodiment of the solution going too far.

I always thought Magneto's dynamic was being Malcolm X to Professor Xavier's MLK? Both striving for similar goals but vastly differing views on how to go about it.

[sh9000]

New release date is June 7, 2019.

[David Hingtgen]

Hilarious, and sad, that they JUST released the trailer...

[sh9000]

My wife and I will watch this.

[kajnrig]

On 9/27/2018 at 9:49 PM, renegadeleader1 said:

I always thought Magneto's dynamic was being Malcolm X to Professor Xavier's MLK? Both striving for similar goals but vastly differing views on how to go about it.

Eh... ish. At least according to the little media I've seen and word from people more knowledgeable than I.

In the beginning X-Men WAS greatly influenced by the 60's civil rights movement, but it's generic enough that it can incorporate/be applicable to most struggles for civil rights. The X-Men movies made the X-Men more explicitly "about" the LGBTQ movement...

...but again, its real-world parallels come and go with the times.

As for Magneto and Xavier = Malcolm and Martin, that's fanon... based slightly in fact. I'm sure the latter informed the former, but the comparison gets played up a bit too much by the fandom. It's telling that Stan Lee himself has rarely (if ever, again I'm just going off what others say) expressed as much or confirmed it when it got mentioned. Jack Kirby never made the comparison. Marvel itself didn't and continue to not say much about it. I think it's a bit of a "leave well enough alone" type thing on their part, and attempts at making these characters more... "legitimate" than they are on the fan communities' part.

Recent scholars - not sure if that's the right word, sounds too academic, but that's basically what they are - examining this interpretation have found the comparison superficial at best, and reductive at worst.

[sh9000]

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by sh9000

[tekering]

Is this ever going to see the light of day?  It was test-screened over a year ago...!  

Maybe, like The New Mutants, they'll just keep bumping the release date further and further into the future, until the studio heads can finally wash their hands of it and declare it Disney's problem...

It sounds like a disaster.

[sh9000]

[TangledThorns]

The last movie was one of the worst comic book films ever. I'm not expecting much from this film.

[peter]

I'm not sure I want to go see this...

[tekering]

58 minutes ago, TangledThorns said:

The last movie was one of the worst comic book films ever.

Really?!  

Batman and Robin.  Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice.  Blade: Trinity.  Catwoman.  Elektra.  The Fantastic Four films.  The Ghost Rider films.  Green Lantern.  Howard the Duck.  Jonah Hex.  Spawn.  The Spirit.  Steel.  Supergirl.  Superman III.  Superman IV: The Quest For Peace.  The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles films.

Sure, Apocalypse didn't compare to Days of Future Past or Logan, but do you really think it was as bad as any of the above?

Hell, it wasn't even the worst of the X-Men films...  

[jenius]

Howard the Duck? That movie is a classic!

[TangledThorns]

5 hours ago, jenius said:

Howard the Duck? That movie is a classic!

Howard the Duck > X-Men Apocalypse

[Chronocidal]

I want to know why Mystique suddenly looks like a Star Trek alien of the week.¹  I don't remember the makeup looking that cheap/terrible before.  That's like Fantastic 4 reshoot wig-bad.

Is it because they've entirely ditched any makeup, and are just doing it digitally?  Even that shouldn't explain that mop of neon red hair.. she looks like a smurf dressed up as Raggedy-Anne.

(1. Maybe it's the uniform?  )

Edited February 28, 2019 by Chronocidal

[Tking22]

22 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

I want to know why Mystique suddenly looks like a Star Trek alien of the week.¹  I don't remember the makeup looking that cheap/terrible before.  That's like Fantastic 4 reshoot wig-bad.

Is it because they've entirely ditched any makeup, and are just doing it digitally?  Even that shouldn't explain that mop of neon red hair.. she looks like a smurf dressed up as Raggedy-Anne.

(1. Maybe it's the uniform?  )

It might be full CG now, Jennifer Lawrence very publicly complained, many times, about how much she hated getting covered in make-up for the role. On a side note, agreed with everyone else, this looks bad. Not just like another meh X-Men film, but visually, the effects and look come off as a film from 2006 or something.

I'm also continuously baffled at the talent involved, and then the ending product. With this cast, these films should be incredible.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Tking22

[Thom]

I'm not an X-Men fan, but that actually looks pretty good.

[kalvasflam]

5 hours ago, Tking22 said:

It might be full CG now, Jennifer Lawrence very publicly complained, many times, about how much she hated getting covered in make-up for the role. On a side note, agreed with everyone else, this looks bad. Not just like another meh X-Men film, but visually, the effects and look come off as a film from 2006 or something.

I'm also continuously baffled at the talent involved, and then the ending product. With this cast, these films should be incredible.

Oh poor JLaw, how horrible for her to be covered in make up so she can make millions.  Wasn't she supposed to be done with the series after XMA?  Yet here she is again, more money.  She knows where her bread is getting buttered.  Just put up with it like Craig has to put up with another Bond.

Anyway, the movie doesn't look quite that bad.  We'll have to see, they do tend to mangle the Phoenix movies.

[Mommar]

To me it just looks like they're frakking up the Dark Phoenix Saga for a second time.

[Kanedas Bike]

25 minutes ago, Mommar said:

To me it just looks like they're frakking up the Dark Phoenix Saga for a second time.

VERY hard to disagree with that, I get that the comic was kind of convoluted but it should not be that hard to make a coherent adaptation for the big screen.

 

That said, that last trailer doesn't look as bad as I expected it to. I was pleasantly surprised with Days of Future Past and I absolutely hated Apocalypse so I will wait for either (1) positive word of mouth or (2) a release on cable for something to watch if/when I'm that bored.

-b. 

[kajnrig]

The Phoenix story just seems really... boring. At its heart, it's only ever told as a garden-variety "female empowerment and/or sexual freedom is baaaaad" morality tale, which aside from being tasteless as hell also lacks anything for anyone to do or be, including and especially the titular Phoenix of the story. There are thematic/metaphorical elements aplenty that can be gleaned from THE SYMBOL OF REBIRTH, but even setting that aside, all the goofy space alien shenanigans from the comics that feed into and out of the Phoenix story just goes completely to waste. I get the distinct impression that the franchise still has this lingering mindset from the very first movie that all of that stuff is somehow "beneath" it or something.

[Chronocidal]

I don't know if I ever attributed that much thought to it.  I thought it was treated fairly well in X2, before they ran over the concept repeatedly with a bus in X3.

I'd have to review the original comic story to remember for sure, but the entire mess sounded like a 30-cliche pile-up even in its original form.  I don't think the space alien angle ever helped it.

At least as the movies have portrayed it so far, isn't the whole thing just a sort of alternate personality in Jean that Professor X locked away through some sort of mental jury-rigging?  Frankly, that's enough of a compelling plot on its own.  The space alien twist just sounds like a half-assed effort to save the character after her repressed Mary Sue personality went on a temper tantrum and killed a bunch of people.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Chronocidal

[kalvasflam]

I honestly think there are two problems with these grand productions.

One problem with all of these big screen production is that they tend to kill off the antagonist for the most part.  So far, the only survivors on repeated showing have been Thanos, and Loki, I only look at guys with major roles, not the weirdo Hydra repeats that last a minutes on the screen in a subsequent movie.  Oh, I suppose Jared Leto's Joker counts as well.  But he hasn't had his second movie yet, nor the guys from Suicide squad.

The second problem is that Hollywood still likes to make self contained  movies because if it bombs, well, no sequel necessary.  If you look at the First class series, these are all entirely self contained movies that if they failed, well, that's ok, and the stories are all centered around Mystique, Xavier, and Lensheer.   Everyone else is just added on.   Whereas the comics were more diverse, and the aforementioned characters were in support roles.  Marvel succeeded I think in part because they figured out how to shoehorn in this Thanos arc sometime between Thor and the first Avenger movie, and then they were able to build on the success by laying out a plan for the long term.  (mostly because of Disney bucks)  You just don't see that for the X-men series.  Fox never bothered to say there would be another five or six in the pipeline post the success of DoFP. 

[Mommar]

13 hours ago, kajnrig said:

The Phoenix story just seems really... boring. At its heart, it's only ever told as a garden-variety "female empowerment and/or sexual freedom is baaaaad" morality tale, which aside from being tasteless as hell also lacks anything for anyone to do or be, including and especially the titular Phoenix of the story. 

I’m confused.  Are you referring to the films or just the story in any medium at all?

[David Hingtgen]

23 hours ago, Tking22 said:

It might be full CG now, Jennifer Lawrence very publicly complained, many times, about how much she hated getting covered in make-up for the role. On a side note, agreed with everyone else, this looks bad. Not just like another meh X-Men film, but visually, the effects and look come off as a film from 2006 or something.

I'm also continuously baffled at the talent involved, and then the ending product. With this cast, these films should be incredible.

If it's full CG, why even hire/pay Jlaw? 

[kalvasflam]

2 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

If it's full CG, why even hire/pay Jlaw? 

Because I'm sure there will be moments when Mystique is not blue and they need to slap JLaw's pretty face on screen.  It's kinda screwy, in a world where mutants are more "accepted" and "national heroes" that one still has to go around using her power of camouflage.  

Besides, JLaw is a draw, otherwise, they could hire any low paid actress off of the streets in Hollywood and cover her up in paint.

Edited March 2, 2019 by kalvasflam

[kajnrig]

9 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

I don't know if I ever attributed that much thought to it.  I thought it was treated fairly well in X2, before they ran over the concept repeatedly with a bus in X3.

I don't disagree. X2's setup was great. Nods here and there, a self-sacrifice to cleanly end those nods if the movie happens to bomb (it didn't), and barely a teaser at the very very end just in case. But the Phoenix story doesn't properly begin until X3, and we all know how that turned out.

9 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

I'd have to review the original comic story to remember for sure, but the entire mess sounded like a 30-cliche pile-up even in its original form.  I don't think the space alien angle ever helped it.

I only know the Phoenix saga by osmosis, and even then I don't think the interstellar angle was a big part of it either. I just want the X-Men to go do dumb outer space stuff, The movies feel like they take themselves way too seriously. Again, like they're still ashamed of their comic book origins or something.

9 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

At least as the movies have portrayed it so far, isn't the whole thing just a sort of alternate personality in Jean that Professor X locked away through some sort of mental jury-rigging?

Yes, and done well, I think such a setup can work well enough. But given that they failed with that setup last time, it boggles my mind that they would seem to be going right back to it, and this time with a far less compelling Jean Grey to boot. Sansa Stark is a great actress, but the Jean of DofP(?)/Apocalypse/DP is about as bland as plain white toast. In order for an alternate personality to work there has to be a primary one to begin with, and this Jean Grey just does not have such a thing.

...or maybe I'm just being my usual debbie downer. I thought DoFP and Apocalypse were equally terrible movies, so I'm coming into this already predisposed to cynicism.

7 hours ago, kalvasflam said:

If you look at the First class series, these are all entirely self contained movies that if they failed, well, that's ok, and the stories are all centered around Mystique, Xavier, and Lensheer.

By "First Class," do you mean the movie, or are you referring to I'm guessing a comic book run?

3 hours ago, Mommar said:

I’m confused.  Are you referring to the films or just the story in any medium at all?

Eh... I suppose the films, mostly (in which case the sample size is all of one, in which case my point is kind of moot, in which case... shut up). As I said above, I only know the Phoenix Saga in the comics by osmosis. I do remember reading one or two of the latter comics in the run during my youth, but by then the story had devolved into such weirdness that I didn't know what was going on anymore.

 

[kalvasflam]

34 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

By "First Class," do you mean the movie, or are you referring to I'm guessing a comic book run?

I really mean the movies with JLaw, DMcAvoy, and MFassbender  (for some reason, when I say it that way, it reminds me of Bender from Futurama)

Each of these movies are connected, but at the same time, they are self contained story.  There is not as much an overarching theme as the MCU, where if you got dropped into the Infinity War, you would have no idea of the previous history.  The First Class series you can kind of go in and at least be ok if you didn't see the prior movies.

[TehPW]

On 3/1/2019 at 3:53 AM, kajnrig said:

The Phoenix story just seems really... boring. At its heart, it's only ever told as a garden-variety "female empowerment and/or sexual freedom is baaaaad" morality tale, which aside from being tasteless as hell also lacks anything for anyone to do or be, including and especially the titular Phoenix of the story. There are thematic/metaphorical elements aplenty that can be gleaned from THE SYMBOL OF REBIRTH, but even setting that aside, all the goofy space alien shenanigans from the comics that feed into and out of the Phoenix story just goes completely to waste. I get the distinct impression that the franchise still has this lingering mindset from the very first movie that all of that stuff is somehow "beneath" it or something.

I think you need to look and think about reading issue #137 back in the day, when we didn't have the intrawebs and google to totally spoil our imagination of Dark Phoenix doing a bit of Thanos stuff and kill a Galaxy.  Jean Grey (or her clone, as later on was determined to been, sadly) committed crimes beyond imaging to most 12-13 years who were reading the comics. Boring to you now? Sure, you're jaded AF, LOL. But back in the day, Dark Phoenix Saga was the &^%&. Sadly, Marvel pulled a Bobby Hueing-in-the-shower and it's been &^*& ever since... 

Edited March 3, 2019 by TehPW

[Mommar]

19 hours ago, TehPW said:

I think you need to look and think about reading issue #137 back in the day, when we didn't have the intrawebs and google to totally spoil our imagination of Dark Phoenix doing a bit of Thanos stuff and kill a Galaxy.  Jean Grey (or her clone, as later on was determined to been, sadly) committed crimes beyond imaging to most 12-13 years who were reading the comics. Boring to you now? Sure, you're jaded AF, LOL. But back in the day, Dark Phoenix Saga was the &^%&. Sadly, Marvel pulled a Bobby Hueing-in-the-shower and it's been &^*& ever since... 

Yeah, given in the comic books Jean murders several billion people.  You never get a glimpse of how far she’s turned and how powerful she is in the previous film iteration.  Nor do I imagine you’ll see that here.

[Chronocidal]

Yeah, I had to go read a summary of how the original story went to clear up my understanding.  The original was less about untapped/bottled-up massive mental powers, and more how Jean let a mysterious cosmic space chicken spirit boost her power level to help her rescue her friends from getting cooked by a solar flare.

The "locking away" was done after that, by Jean herself, I think, but of course, her overpowered personality became an exploitable plot device, and people began twisting her.  All that culminated in the space chicken reasserting itself, throwing her across the galaxy in the cosmic spirit equivalent of a late night "I've got the munchies" run, and she winds up eating a star and killing a planet's worth of people.

The remainder just centers on whether Jean deserves to be executed for her actions as caused by the firey bird renting out her mind, and what sounds like an adaptation of some Star Trek episode where the only way to determine guilt or innocence is via a massive battle for honor.  Of course, Jean loses control again during the battle, and kills herself with a handy plot device she finds laying in a corner of the moon, saving everyone the trouble.

And then they revealed it was never her in the first place, and when the phoenix took over her body in space, she was sent into another person's body entirely?   

Granted, yes, I never read these when I was younger, and I'm viewing the whole thing through a heavy dose of cynicism.  For characters that've built up relationships over more than a hundred issues, having this sort of thing going on was no small twist.  Unfortunately, in the following decades, the "character turns evil and superpowered" subplot has been done so many times as to make it seem pretty cliche in hindsight.

Now, granted the trailer shows the bit with the space shuttle, so at least that scene may remain intact, but since we've already seen hints of the Phoenix in Apocalypse, I don't think they're going to go with the cosmic entity version of the Phoenix from the original comics, meaning we're probably not going to get the "It was never Jean in the first place" twist.  Might be we're just going to get that event as the trigger that awakens her potential, or possibly even pull a Fantastic 4-ish bit of mutation brought on by the solar flare itself.

[kalvasflam]

In X3 , the phoenix was not an external entity that happens to borrow Jean's body, this one, it's not obvious.  The only thing that we know for sure is that Grey is extremely powerful, how much of that is her, in AoA, vs a renter remains to be see.

[eXis10z]

I'll just wait for the blu-ray if I can't find the time to head to the theatres, watch it once and that's it. Now that the x-men will most probably return to MCU the other series can be forgotten for eternity.