New Macross TV Series in 20xx (sometime this decade)

[Marzan]

I'm hoping the new series rekindles the fire smoldering inside Macross fans

[Master Dex]

6 hours ago, Marzan said:

I'm hoping the new series rekindles the fire smoldering inside Macross fans

Well for many western fans yes that is a good hope. I mean, I'm good and kindled, and the Japanese audience seems to have a roaring fire still (some might say... Bomba..) but yeah, a show more of the fans here enjoy, especially on this forum, would be awesome. 

[ZOR prime]

5 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Well for many western fans yes that is a good hope. I mean, I'm good and kindled, and the Japanese audience seems to have a roaring fire still (some might say... Bomba..) but yeah, a show more of the fans here enjoy, especially on this forum, would be awesome. 

Yeah I'm still a M7 fan.

Nice to see the new series dubbed.

One website has Macross dubbed which is nice.

Edited July 23, 2018 by ZOR prime
Because

[Marzan]

17 hours ago, Master Dex said:

Well for many western fans yes that is a good hope. I mean, I'm good and kindled, and the Japanese audience seems to have a roaring fire still (some might say... Bomba..) but yeah, a show more of the fans here enjoy, especially on this forum, would be awesome. 

I think the two are not mutually exclusive (as much as some love to make that statement). And the popularity of the show in Japan (the way I see and read it on social media at least) is all about Walküre and their music, with little if no focus on the Delta series itself.

[Podtastic]

10 hours ago, Marzan said:

the popularity of the show in Japan (the way I see and read it on social media at least) is all about Walküre and their music, with little if no focus on the Delta series itself.

That's like the popularity of Star Wars being all about people thinking the Ewoks are cute.

[peter]

12 hours ago, Podtastic said:

That's like the popularity of Star Wars being all about people thinking the Ewoks are cute.

Ughh.......

When I was 8 yrs old, I didn't think much of the Ewoks. 

Two years later, the Battle of Endor came out, and when I read "Battle", I thought it was going to be good.  I gave it a watch and even as a 10 year old, I knew it was a heaping pile of rubbish.

I was probably 19 when 7 came out.  Imagine my disappointment.

Now, what in hell is a Walküre?

[Podtastic]

12 hours ago, peter said:

Ughh.......

When I was 8 yrs old, I didn't think much of the Ewoks. 

Two years later, the Battle of Endor came out, and when I read "Battle", I thought it was going to be good.  I gave it a watch and even as a 10 year old, I knew it was a heaping pile of rubbish.

I was probably 19 when 7 came out.  Imagine my disappointment.

Now, what in hell is a Walküre? 

Originally it was intended to be Wookies in that battle, and Endor was meant to be Kashyyk.  This would have been a lot more convincing IMO.

Walkure is German for Valkyrie.  To me all the singers in Macross are annoying, with the exception of the Marduk Emulators.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Podtastic

[Seto Kaiba]

On 7/22/2018 at 9:39 PM, Master Dex said:

Well for many western fans yes that is a good hope. I mean, I'm good and kindled, and the Japanese audience seems to have a roaring fire still (some might say... Bomba..) but yeah, a show more of the fans here enjoy, especially on this forum, would be awesome. 

Given what's been said in recent days in this thread and elsewhere, I'm increasingly convinced older fans in the west have simply outgrown Macross.  Or, rather, that Macross has outgrown those fans.  I think it safe to say that this new series will not satisfy them.  The last thing we need from Macross is for it to indulge in Gundam-esque stagnation or regression, and that seems to be a popular demand from the older fans in the west.

 

20 hours ago, peter said:

Now, what in hell is a Walküre?

Macross's creators have been hitting the Norse mythological references hard and fast since Macross 30.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Seto Kaiba

[Focslain]

10 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Given what's been said in recent days in this thread and elsewhere, I'm increasingly convinced older fans in the west have simply outgrown Macross.  Or, rather, that Macross has outgrown those fans.  I think it safe to say that this new series will not satisfy them.  The last thing we need from Macross is for it to indulge in Gundam-esque stagnation or regression, and that seems to be a popular demand from the older fans in the west.

Agreed, I'm really hoping the new series is in line with Kawamori's air show competition idea. That way we can get some interesting mecha/plane sequences and if they have a band for entertainment then there is our music. Pretty much what I like about Macross, mecha action and concerts. 

[ZOR prime]

8 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Originally it was intended to be Wookies in that battle, and Endor was meant to be Kashyyk.  This would have been a lot more convincing IMO.

Walkure is German for Valkyrie.  To me all the singers in Macross are annoying, with the exception of the Marduk Emulators.

Whaaa! Marduk emulators again?

[ZOR prime]

58 minutes ago, Focslain said:

Agreed, I'm really hoping the new series is in line with Kawamori's air show competition idea. That way we can get some interesting mecha/plane sequences and if they have a band for entertainment then there is our music. Pretty much what I like about Macross, mecha action and concerts. 

I'm still a Macross fan.

That won't stop.

 

And Gundam also.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Focslain said:

Agreed, I'm really hoping the new series is in line with Kawamori's air show competition idea. That way we can get some interesting mecha/plane sequences and if they have a band for entertainment then there is our music. Pretty much what I like about Macross, mecha action and concerts. 

I think I'd prefer what they did with Macross the Ride, where one of the pilots was a retired idol and sings for fun (karaoke at a bar, no less) but is not a professional singer anymore.

[Gerli]

Or maybe something ala Uma Musume, but with Valk-Girls racing and then the winner sing at the stage..

 

 

 

...what? 

[Mommar]

5 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I think I'd prefer what they did with Macross the Ride, where one of the pilots was a retired idol and sings for fun (karaoke at a bar, no less) but is not a professional singer anymore.

Did they do that in The Ride?  I always thought it would be a good idea to have a character who's hobby was singing so it was still present as a Macross thing but not prominent or the main feature.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 minutes ago, Mommar said:

Did they do that in The Ride?  I always thought it would be a good idea to have a character who's hobby was singing so it was still present as a Macross thing but not prominent or the main feature.

Yeah.  That was the main character's (Chelsea Scarlett's) backstory in Macross the Ride.

She was a retired idol who tried to become a fighter pilot, discovered she couldn't bring herself to kill, and became an air racer instead.  (Word is that in the Macross Delta novelization she's a MP in the New UN Gov't now.)

Edited July 25, 2018 by Seto Kaiba

[kajnrig]

28 minutes ago, Mommar said:

Did they do that in The Ride?  I always thought it would be a good idea to have a character who's hobby was singing so it was still present as a Macross thing but not prominent or the main feature.

That was kind of the role I had hoped for Kaname in Delta. Alas, nope, all idols all the time.

[Master Dex]

On 7/25/2018 at 7:36 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Given what's been said in recent days in this thread and elsewhere, I'm increasingly convinced older fans in the west have simply outgrown Macross.  Or, rather, that Macross has outgrown those fans.  I think it safe to say that this new series will not satisfy them.  The last thing we need from Macross is for it to indulge in Gundam-esque stagnation or regression, and that seems to be a popular demand from the older fans in the west.

This is basically straight up true. If it's fans don't want to adapt to the changing times the franchise is changing with them it will leave us behind. The time for stories line SDFM was the 80s, Plus worked well in the 90s but so did 7 (more so really), but they all hold up if you go in knowing it's not the same. Everything had something to enjoy and I love finding the bits to enjoy still. Plus we'll always have VFs and great music. 

[Seto Kaiba]

59 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

This is basically straight up true. If it's fans don't want to adapt to the changing times the franchise is changing with them it will leave us behind.

Ever since Frontier, we've seen a lot of that from various parts of the western fandom... and, to make it funnier, it really hasn't become any less hypocritical with time.

The fans who were grumbling about how Macross was "ruined forever" because Macross Frontier had used CG animation would, in the same breath, praise Macross Plus even though it also used CG quite heavily and made a lot more noise about the fact.  Others would grumble loudly about how Alto was so indecisive, while ignoring that Hikaru and Mylene spent more episodes than Frontier even got on moping over being friendzoned by their one-sided crushes.

Macross Delta just moved the target.  Fans grumbled about how Walkure looked like "magical girls", even though the holographic technology they use debuted in Do You Remember Love?, the idea of military idols on the battlefield goes all the way back to Macross II and Macross 7, song being more than purely words starting in 7 and being expanded on in Frontier, etc.  

It's not a complete loss though.  There are those out there who've shown they can and will reexamine their views, like the fans who used to bash Macross II for not being "canon" who did an abrupt about-face when Kawamori said it was just as valid as any other Macross story.

 

 

59 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

The time for stories line SDFM was the 80s, Plus worked well in the 90s but so did 7 (more so really), but they all hold up if you go in knowing it's not the same. Everything had something to enjoy and I love finding the bits to enjoy still. Plus we'll always have VFs and great music. 

A lot of western fans seem really committed to holding up Macross Plus as the example of what they want a new Macross to be like, apparently blissfully unaware that the OVA wasn't nearly as well-received as Macross 7 when it was new, a series they seem to loathe.

Macross has, and likely always will, change with the times... and a good thing it does.  If it didn't, it'd get incredibly dull and samey.

[ZOR prime]

34 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Ever since Frontier, we've seen a lot of that from various parts of the western fandom... and, to make it funnier, it really hasn't become any less hypocritical with time.

The fans who were grumbling about how Macross was "ruined forever" because Macross Frontier had used CG animation would, in the same breath, praise Macross Plus even though it also used CG quite heavily and made a lot more noise about the fact.  Others would grumble loudly about how Alto was so indecisive, while ignoring that Hikaru and Mylene spent more episodes than Frontier even got on moping over being friendzoned by their one-sided crushes.

Macross Delta just moved the target.  Fans grumbled about how Walkure looked like "magical girls", even though the holographic technology they use debuted in Do You Remember Love?, the idea of military idols on the battlefield goes all the way back to Macross II and Macross 7, song being more than purely words starting in 7 and being expanded on in Frontier, etc.  

It's not a complete loss though.  There are those out there who've shown they can and will reexamine their views, like the fans who used to bash Macross II for not being "canon" who did an abrupt about-face when Kawamori said it was just as valid as any other Macross story.

 

 

A lot of western fans seem really committed to holding up Macross Plus as the example of what they want a new Macross to be like, apparently blissfully unaware that the OVA wasn't nearly as well-received as Macross 7 when it was new, a series they seem to loathe.

Macross has, and likely always will, change with the times... and a good thing it does.  If it didn't, it'd get incredibly dull and samey.

I can put with idols ever since minmei in the Macross that's been the focus.but if it still has valks I can deal with it.

I still watch Macross, and watching the Masters now.

[kajnrig]

26 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

A lot of western fans seem really committed to holding up Macross Plus as the example of what they want a new Macross to be like, apparently blissfully unaware that the OVA wasn't nearly as well-received as Macross 7 when it was new, a series they seem to loathe.

To be fair, well-received isn't synonymous with good. That's not to say either one is good while the other is bad, but no matter how often you bring up reception, you're still not directly countering their point.

...and, I mean, Plus IS better than 7. Easily. :P

[Dynaman]

More Macross Plus is what I want.  More Macross 7 I have no interest in.  No need to mash in other unrelated items like CGI animation.  Plus is a more gritty story that I like, 7 was lunacy in my opinion and I feel bad having watched all of it.  

[sketchley]

7 hours ago, kajnrig said:

To be fair, well-received isn't synonymous with good. That's not to say either one is good while the other is bad, but no matter how often you bring up reception, you're still not directly countering their point.

Isn't "good" an opinion, and "well received" a factual statement?

Anyhow... perhaps it's better to look at this from a different perspective: video games.  (First person) shooters are popular in North America.  In Japan, RPGs (or story based games) are popular in Japan.  Both are good (or bad) depending on where one is coming from.  Each culture has different preferences about what is "good".

Returning to Macross: the producers understand what is currently popular in their target market (Japan), and have geared the show that they made for that.  It's kind of irrelevant whether it is popular overseas or not*, as being successful in Japan means money to keep making new shows.  And isn't that what we all want?

 

* consider overseas success the icing on the cake.  That's a suitable analogy for the % of profit that revenue stream makes.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, kajnrig said:

To be fair, well-received isn't synonymous with good.

"Good" is a purely subjective value judgement.  "Well-received" is synonymous with "popular", which can be measured objectively via average viewership and merchandising sales.

"Well-received" can be seen as synonymous with "Good" in the sense that a show that is well-received is one which a large audience subjectively judges to be good.

Macross's creators and owners are, after all, running a business here.  They'll go for what they think will be well-received because the goal is to turn a profit on these shows and their merchandise.  That's why I'm pretty sure the news series isn't likely to be what older western fans want.  They're going to be appealing to the younger, Japanese fans which make up their target television audience.  

 

26 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

More Macross Plus is what I want.  More Macross 7 I have no interest in.  No need to mash in other unrelated items like CGI animation.  Plus is a more gritty story that I like, 7 was lunacy in my opinion and I feel bad having watched all of it.  

While I don't wish to say or in any way imply your opinion isn't a valid one, it is essentially illustrative of what I'm getting at.

Macross 7 was, in the final analysis, a distillation of Macross's core themes into a purer form than we usually got them in.  It has more of the essence of Macross than almost any other title... more of what the Japanese audience has repeatedly said they want.  

Let's abuse an alcohol metaphor for a moment.  The power of music is to Macross what ethanol is to booze.  Anyone who said it wasn't essential to the experience is generally seen as a crazy person, but individual opinion differs wildly about how much is appropriate in a single serving.  Plus is kind of like a microbrewery beer.  It's sophisticated and artsy and impressive sounding, but there's not a lot of substance to it and it lacks punch.  Macross 7's the opposite extreme... like shots of Everclear.  It sounds like a fantastic idea when you're young and it's all but guaranteed to be a wild ride, but when you get older it sounds like less and less of a good idea.  The other shows are sophisticated blends with varying degrees of kick to 'em. a cabinet of hard liquors.

Big West and Satelite are marketing to a younger crowd in Japan... the viewers who are looking to indulge for indulgence's sake.  They're gonna try a bit of everything, but they're going to hit the hard stuff first and fast.  

[davidwhangchoi]

will this have english subs?

[Podtastic]

5 hours ago, sketchley said:

Japan means money to keep making new shows.  And isn't that what we all want?

Not if the shows don't contain what we want.

 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

the goal is to turn a profit on these shows and their merchandise

I'm sure that's always the goal, its just a pity that the potential for Macross to be awesome sci-fi is being lost. Its becoming just another anime.

[Dynaman]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

Macross 7 was, in the final analysis, a distillation of Macross's core themes into a purer form than we usually got them in.  It has more of the essence of Macross than almost any other title... more of what the Japanese audience has repeatedly said they want.  

 

It was a distillation of the music and idol parts of Macross, which is what I am least interested in.  The love triangle in 7, while taking up a lot of screen time, was a mess where the main character is totally clueless and disinterested in personnel relationships of any kind.  If it weren't for Max and Millia it would be a complete disaster on that front.  Space Battle scene wise it was totally worthless, partly due to plot and a lot of it due to boring battle scenes - it is hard to make a battle interesting when the enemy just sucks your mind out...

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

will this have english subs?

That's more a mid-2019 question, assuming release schedules work out the way they seem to be headed.  If Delta's movie sells well in export sales, it may well end up with official English subs as well... 

 

6 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Not if the shows don't contain what we want.

"We" in this case being a very small minority among the western Macross fandom, which itself is such a small percentage of the total Macross fandom that Macross's creators are barely aware that it exists at all.  To wit, your discontent is mathematically insignificant in general terms... never mind your own, rather esoteric, tastes.

Many western Macross fans, myself included, will continue to support new releases even if they're not exactly what we were hoping for because we love Macross and want to see more of it.  Particularly for recent releases, since we want to encourage Macross's creators to make more material available to us in English so that fans who don't speak/read Japanese won't be dependent on grey market materials like fansubs and fan translations.

 

6 hours ago, Podtastic said:

I'm sure that's always the goal, its just a pity that the potential for Macross to be awesome sci-fi is being lost. Its becoming just another anime.

Macross was never a serious work of science fiction. 

Indeed, if you ask Kawamori he'll tell you that the whole science fiction setting is just an elaborate framing device for the love story.  It's always been that way, and it likely always will be.  Macross is really not about giant robots, space war, and alien invasions... it's about love and music's power to communicate.

 

46 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

It was a distillation of the music and idol parts of Macross, which is what I am least interested in.

More a distillation of the core themes about music's power to communicate.

 

46 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

The love triangle in 7, while taking up a lot of screen time, was a mess where the main character is totally clueless and disinterested in personnel relationships of any kind.

In that regard, it wasn't all that different from the love triangle in the original series.

Minmay was so categorically oblivious to Hikaru's interest in her that she doesn't notice until literally after the end of the world.  Even then, it still takes her a year or two to really get her head around it and by then it's too late.

 

46 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Space Battle scene wise it was totally worthless, partly due to plot and a lot of it due to boring battle scenes - it is hard to make a battle interesting when the enemy just sucks your mind out...

It had to be a bit lighter and softer... it was aimed at a younger audience than was typical for Macross, and during a period where anime was lighter and softer in general.  (Look at its Gundam contemporary... Mobile Fighter G Gundam.)

Macross in general isn't exactly aimed at the 30- and 40-somethings out there... it's targeted to the secondary school students (and maybe college students).

[Dynaman]

> Macross in general isn't exactly aimed at the 30- and 40-somethings out there... it's targeted to the secondary school students (and maybe college students).

So was Frontier, if the next series is more like Frontier then I'm all for it.

[ZOR prime]

Yep from the original Macross till now. Ichiro Misa and minmei.

Foker and c ok Claudia

Max and milia till now

[cjcastan]

1 hour ago, Dynaman said:

> Macross in general isn't exactly aimed at the 30- and 40-somethings out there... it's targeted to the secondary school students (and maybe college students).

So was Frontier, if the next series is more like Frontier then I'm all for it.

Me too! I thought frontier was incredible. I am an oldtaku who was introduced to the franchise by the robotech. 

Delta personally wasn’t my favorite. Not because of walkure (which took some getting acclimated to) but because the story completely slammed on the brakes after the 1st cour. I mean we had a whole talking head exposition episode.

hope springs eternal, so I do look forward to the next installment, happy it isn’t 8+ years between iterations like it has been in the past.

[Sanity is Optional]

Frontier is my favorite of all the series, if I'm taking off my nostalgia goggles.

Characters were interesting, dogfights and mecha were interesting, and the plot was decent as well.

Delta and 7 strayed a bit too far from what I liked about having one of the main focuses be on fighter pilots. Even in the original series, the focus was on Hikaru as a pilot, rather than Minmay as an Idol (though she was much more important to the plot).

[Wolf-1]

3 hours ago, Sanity is Optional said:

Frontier is my favorite of all the series, if I'm taking off my nostalgia goggles.

Characters were interesting, dogfights and mecha were interesting, and the plot was decent as well.

Delta and 7 strayed a bit too far from what I liked about having one of the main focuses be on fighter pilots. Even in the original series, the focus was on Hikaru as a pilot, rather than Minmay as an Idol (though she was much more important to the plot).

I thought the only real reason he joined up was because of Minmay, to protect but more importantly impress her.  Again the piloting was ease of character placement into the developing scenario. 

[kajnrig]

On 7/26/2018 at 8:41 PM, sketchley said:

Isn't "good" an opinion, and "well received" a factual statement?

On 7/26/2018 at 8:56 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

"Good" is a purely subjective value judgement. "Well-received" can be seen as synonymous with "Good" in the sense that a show that is well-received is one which a large audience subjectively judges to be good.

Perhaps I'm being overly pedantic, but while neither of you are wrong, the two only align if one chooses to align them. Or if "audience reception" is one of the values that inform one's judgment of a piece of work, if you will. And I don't know many people for whom that is the case. I certainly don't think a movie or book or what-have-you is good just or even partly because lots of other people do. I don't think Naruto or Twilight or Gundam are particularly good, though a lot of people do. Popular opinion of something doesn't often play into my calculus.

I mean, your citing popular opinion as part of a larger point about feeding audience demand in order to maximize profitability and whatnot is all well and good, as is the one tying it to the overarching themes of the franchise, but on its own, the comparison of audience reactions is not particularly relevant. I (and others, for different reasons perhaps) simply don't care that more people took a liking to 7 than Plus. It's still the worse of the two.

Edited July 28, 2018 by kajnrig

[Sanity is Optional]

2 hours ago, Wolf-1 said:

I thought the only real reason he joined up was because of Minmay, to protect but more importantly impress her.  Again the piloting was ease of character placement into the developing scenario. 

The series really focused on Hikaru, and his character development. As far as Minmay factored into that, it was mainly him learning to give up on her, or at least to give up on trying to be her boyfriend.

[Master Dex]

I mean, we really are going around in circles with this discussion (pretty sure we were all talking about the same stuff 15 pages back). Mind you, I love the debate, I just find it amusing we keep coming back to this. Anyway, I think Seto is ultimately right in that what we will likely get is likely not going to jive with certain fans, which isn't necessarily good or bad as long as if profits and allows us to get more Macross in the future. Some fans may not be satisfied with that is the more we get isn't the type they want. In this summary of this talk I believe personally that constant and continual change is important and for the best, also in line with Seto's thoughts it seems. It is not impossible as public interest changes over time that we may one day see more Macross that is similar to the older stuff as well, that the currently disenfranchised fans will like more, but I don't think we are back there yet, if we ever will be even.

I like to just accept it for what it is, and work to find things to enjoy in every entry despite the changes. As it is, I'm extremely flexible and because I love the core themes of Macross so much, I end up liking the things each show does to emphasize them uniquely, even 7 and Delta (even though the latter did have an objectively flawed second half due to writing).