Macross history

[Aegis!]

First of all ,this ain´t a fanfic thread.

That said , I just recently started questioning why I wanted so much to see what Macross Zero will add to the macross universe and its link to the rest of the shows and why I was so exited about a probable new TV show/movie/OVA that´s supposedly on the works ( based on the what the compendium says ) and I realised the lack of data that there´s on Macross story overall.

What I mean by this is that what makes Macross attractive nowadays (for me at least) is the fact that there´s so muchmore to be told and discovered whereas in the old days we only had SDF Macross and DYRL? to content our hearts and be satisfiedwith and it all ended there.

Fortunatelly now we can dream of knowing the beginings of the Protoculture and Supervision Army to the Post-SW1 era where man started colonisation of other Earth-like planets and its subsequent conflicts to what became of the Anti-UN beyond M0 and the Unification wars during the post-SW1 period and reconstruction of Earth and the new Macross Class fleet colonisation or what does the future hold for Variable fighter after M+ now that the BDI/BDS systems of the YF-21 and the Ghost AI were rejected by the UN Sapcy.

Either way , Kawamori will have to be REALLY original and creative (as always , no doubt ) , if we do get a post-2051 series he´ll have little inspiration for more VFs...I mean , he based M+ on the famous YF-22 and YF-23 constest that was celebrated in Edwards Base but now that such contest is over and the US goverment is more bias towards unmanned fighters (X-36) even after the JSF project came out with a winner (no , I´m not confusing the YF-22/23 contest to the JSF project , I´m acknowledging both ) he has no real-life inspiration , let´s say he bases the next series on the JSF and X-36 case , that´s just gonna be M+ done over again right ? if he follows the new unmanned fighter planes trend alone then there´ll be nothing interesting on having a macross show with no pilots IMHO.

In the other hand he if he did a post-SW1 series he would´ve to use the available VFs like the VF-4 ,VF-5000 or VF-14 in order to fill the role of main fighter , but then we would have no new VFs...

Don´t get me wrong I´m not trying to start another ¨next-show-speculation-thread¨ since that´s been done to death , as in my firts paragraph my intention was to open a space where we could express our personal view on the prospects of the Macross evolutionary process.

I´m happy about the fact that Macross is so open to new ideas and concepts and now that we´re living this Macross renewal this is emphasized even more. I think that Macross by itself (meaning the existing shows ) is not as intriguing plot-wise as in what pathways Macross leaves open with each new story/show , the attractive factor of the franchise for me personally is not what is stablished with each new show but what new paradox both from an real-life/creative point of view (M+) as within the macross universe (M0) is presented to the audience.

Ironically , Macross Plus ending credits dedication (i.e. ¨Dedicated to all Pioneers¨) starts to make sense in more than one way.

I would be please to hear your perspective and thoughts , thanks lads

PS: sorry for the long essay <_<

[Duke Togo]

The secret of Protoculture is being hidden by the Prior de Scion. Its the subject of Dan Brown's next novel, "The Basara Code".

[Aegis!]

The secret of Protoculture is being hidden by the Prior de Scion. Its the subject of Dan Brown's next novel, "The Basara Code".

weird , I don´t recall mentioning any pro-M7 catchphrase

[Duke Togo]

The secret of Protoculture is being hidden by the Prior de Scion. Its the subject of Dan Brown's next novel, "The Basara Code".

weird , I don´t recall mentioning any pro-M7 catchphrase

Its a joke...

It means, "I didn't mean it"

[Mr March]

That's one of the things I like best about Macross: the amount of open-ended possibilities. Macross has always had very little set in stone (according to Kawamori and the intentionally limited amount of Macross product that was released), so it allows him much more creative freedom to flesh out aspects of the Macross universe than other franchises. Naturally, typical fanboy mentallity will dictate that such fans become disappointed with latter Macross shows because the limited scraps of franchise information available over the long years inbetween sequels/prequels were used to form a set-in-stone history by the fan community. I have always welcomed artistic freedom and freshness of the concept rather than demanding the creators abide the nitpicking. This is particularly true when common held fanboy "truths" about a given franchise are never expressly stated in the mother medium. By mother medium, I mean canon animation products, like the Macross series, OVAs, and films themselves.

Fortunately, Kawamori seems to be in agreement. Most new Macross series delve into the vast unknowns areas of the Macross history, allowing Kawamori and Co. to show us something Macross, but also new and interesting each time. If we, as fans, really ask ourselves "What do we actually know about Macross based on just the animes?" each time we watch a Macross sequel, the franchise really lights up. The viewer is able to enjoy the new revelations about characters, history, and technology that we never understood before. Macross Zero really lit up the technical world of Macross. It introduced explanations and technology to explain how the Macross uplifted the technological level of the humans (Cyclops Radar, new fusion technologies, protoculture theories) and how the Valkyries were able to do all that crazy stuff without being blasted to pieces (Energy Converting Armor). The series itself also shed light on what happened during all those years inbetween the crash and Space War One. I'd love to see a series about what happened in the two years after SWO and inbetween episodes 27 and 28 of the original series. This more than anything else is probably the reasons Macross remains interesting to me while other long time franchises (like Gundam, the Alien series, Star Trek) have stagnated and steadily released diminishing quality products.

[Pat Payne]

The secret of Protoculture is being hidden by the Prior de Scion. Its the subject of Dan Brown's next novel, "The Basara Code".

HA! I thought that the Merovingians and Issac Newton had something to do with it!

Edited January 9, 2004 by Pat Payne

[Isamu Atreides 86]

The secret of Protoculture is being hidden by the Prior de Scion. Its the subject of Dan Brown's next novel, "The Basara Code".

HA! I thought that the Merovingians and Issac Newton had something to do with it!

no. its the Illuminatus and Galileo, and thier incredible branding techniques.

its bound to be called "Angels and Valkyries"

[azrael]

That's one of the things I like best about Macross: the amount of open-ended possibilities. Macross has always had very little set in stone (according to Kawamori and the intentionally limited amount of Macross product that was released), so it allows him much more creative freedom to flesh out aspects of the Macross universe than other franchises. *snip*

Very true. Something else I've noticed is the tendency to recapture the original feel of the original show. Soooo many shows try to do this and everytime, it is met with harsh criticism. By intentionally leaving the door open to different stories, themes and what not, Kawamori left himself open to experimentation. With nothing set in stone, the possibilities become endless. It keeps the franchise "fresh". This is possibily one of the best ways to keep a franchise alive and open to new ideas.

[Druna Skass]

As far as VF designs go I think Kawamori still has a lot to refernce from, there are still a lot of things he could draw ideas from, the Rafale, that F-19 design from back in the day, I haven't seen anything inspired by the F-15SMT/D, or the Tornado.

That and he still has his imagination...

And I heard it's easy to get codine in Japan...

[Noyhauser]

There are a lot of different things in the timeline he could still pick up on. Like the Delta Wars which have only a passing reference but could be open avanues. And I don''t think there is any explaination of these events. And rehashing designs isn't unlikely. My guess is his next series (other than the next OAV) may be another one that focuses on character development like Macross 7 and SDF rather than fighters. IF he does the 2012~2040 period there are countless places where he could place a story. He could even do a story based upon a anti UN spoiler.

[Duke Togo]

I'd like to see another "challeneger to throne", so to speak. Whether internal or external, we haven't seen a serious threat to the UN Spacy, Earth, or the Macross since the original series. Mass destruction, high drama, the future of the human race hanging in the balance. Space fleets racing in from the colonies to save Earth, fight the enemy, whichever whatever. A civil war would be rather interesting, too. We haven't seen that yet. And we still have the Supervision Army which has yet to be heard from...

[imode]

I'd like to see another "challeneger to throne", so to speak. Whether internal or external, we haven't seen a serious threat to the UN Spacy, Earth, or the Macross since the original series. Mass destruction, high drama, the future of the human race hanging in the balance. Space fleets racing in from the colonies to save Earth, fight the enemy, whichever whatever. A civil war would be rather interesting, too. We haven't seen that yet. And we still have the Supervision Army which has yet to be heard from...

Only problem with that would be that Kawamori would try to wiggle in some music stuff in there and risk turning the whole thing fruity.

For once, I wouldn't mind seeing a very serious Macross devoid of all the protoculture and music = power references.

[Druna Skass]

I'd like to see another "challeneger to throne", so to speak. Whether internal or external, we haven't seen a serious threat to the UN Spacy, Earth, or the Macross since the original series. Mass destruction, high drama, the future of the human race hanging in the balance. Space fleets racing in from the colonies to save Earth, fight the enemy, whichever whatever. A civil war would be rather interesting, too. We haven't seen that yet. And we still have the Supervision Army which has yet to be heard from...

Now that would be cool, as long as it doesn't have Basara or some clone of him. Maybe even have the Macross go into battle again and hand the opposing forces their collective asses.

If Kawamori goes that route I hope he gives it a darker feeling than all the other series.

[Final Vegeta]

If Kawamori goes that route I hope he gives it a darker feeling than all the other series.

After Macross 7 you still think Kawamori would want to make a depressing series?

This is the ultimate trial for present series, where authors' willingness to instill an underlayed meaning clashes with audience's burning desire to just see corpses flying in an old fashionably way. And it is still surprising how a series or a movie with lots of deads gains instantly people appraise.

As for a TV series (like the new Macross series should be) violence can go as far as TV allows. This is the limit. You can still force TV limits, but nowadays lot of people have done it, you can no more shielding with things like anti-censorship and "children needed to know". This is how things are, so just imagine a serious series without dead people, blood and sexual issues, and that should be OK.

FV

[Agent ONE]

The secret of Protoculture is being hidden by the Prior de Scion. Its the subject of Dan Brown's next novel, "The Basara Code".

weird , I don´t recall mentioning any pro-M7 catchphrase

Its a joke...

It means, "I didn't mean it"

Minmay taught you that?

[Agent ONE]

I'd like to see another "challeneger to throne", so to speak. Whether internal or external, we haven't seen a serious threat to the UN Spacy, Earth, or the Macross since the original series. Mass destruction, high drama, the future of the human race hanging in the balance. Space fleets racing in from the colonies to save Earth, fight the enemy, whichever whatever. A civil war would be rather interesting, too. We haven't seen that yet. And we still have the Supervision Army which has yet to be heard from...

Only problem with that would be that Kawamori would try to wiggle in some music stuff in there and risk turning the whole thing fruity.

For once, I wouldn't mind seeing a very serious Macross devoid of all the protoculture and music = power references.

Me too!

[Agent ONE]

If Kawamori goes that route I hope he gives it a darker feeling than all the other series.

After Macross 7 you still think Kawamori would want to make a depressing series?

...

I don't know about depressing, but to date DYRL was the most successfull thing he has done, and it was the darkest of all Macross works. It is also considered one of the great anime movies of Japanese animation history.

[Uxi]

For once, I wouldn't mind seeing a very serious Macross devoid of all the protoculture and music = power references.

Woudln't be Macross without music. Not that it coudln't relabel "music = power" as culture shock again, or maybe put it in yet another direction... maybe similar to what Macross II was doing as have a sort of "music = control" alternative. Yet another, less scruplous/consiracy type, derivate of Project M? It could tie in with the civil war idea, which I also like.

"Music = control" could also feature the Supervision Army and detail them as well as getting into a Civil War/rebellion type deal that would nicely toss the good guy/bad guys thing on its head. Best yet make everything shades of gray with no clear cut good guys and bad guys (even including the main protagonists)...

EDIT: Regarding Macross history the thing I like the best about M7 is that it pulled in the various elements of the various Macross productions (DYRL design, SDF story, M+ mecha evolution, etc) and used them all to advance the story.

Edited January 9, 2004 by Uxi

[Uxi]

I don't know about depressing, but to date DYRL was the most successfull thing he has done, and it was the darkest of all Macross works. It is also considered one of the great anime movies of Japanese animation history.

What do u base that on? Is there any hard data on relative sales?

M7 had a bunch of spinoffs and a full OVA that followed it... DYRL had what? Flashback 2012 (which included as much, if not more of SDF than DYRL)... Outside of its evolution of the technical lineart and such, DYRL is almost in MII territory ("movie in a movie" versus alternate universe, which are realistically the same thing).

[treatment]

What do u base that on?  Is there any hard data on relative sales? 

M7 had a bunch of spinoffs and a full OVA that followed it...  DYRL had what?  Flashback 2012 (which included as much, if not more of SDF than DYRL)...  Outside of its evolution of the technical lineart and such, DYRL is almost in MII territory ("movie in a movie" versus alternate universe, which are realistically the same thing).

Edited January 9, 2004 by treatment

[Abombz!!]

What do u base that on?  Is there any hard data on relative sales? 

M7 had a bunch of spinoffs and a full OVA that followed it...  DYRL had what?  Flashback 2012 (which included as much, if not more of SDF than DYRL)...  Outside of its evolution of the technical lineart and such, DYRL is almost in MII territory ("movie in a movie" versus alternate universe, which are realistically the same thing).

I second that.

[Duke Togo]

The secret of Protoculture is being hidden by the Prior de Scion. Its the subject of Dan Brown's next novel, "The Basara Code".

weird , I don´t recall mentioning any pro-M7 catchphrase

Its a joke...

It means, "I didn't mean it"

Minmay taught you that?

Yes... Minmay taught me the word...

[Aegis!]

Ok lads , I think some of you are getting off-topic with all the M7 chitchat. this topic isn´t about any specific Macross show or your opinion of it , it´s about Macross as a whole so please try not to turn this into another M7 thread , we now the most light mention of such show get us all into trouble

Anyway , some people have posted quite a few good comments. I assume most of us think or thought (as me) that what made Macross personally interesting as a series was an specific show but the more I watch all shows the more I realise the neverending potential of the franchise.

We can think of all the options Kawamori could choose for the next series and he still would suprise us , there would still be things we couldn´t come up with and such ¨mystery¨ is what makes it evermore attractive.

Given the lack of real-life refferences for Kawamori to base his new project on he will (IMPO) have to resort to something within the Macross universe , in oher words , extend/expand a branch of the macross timeline but this fact still doesn´t alter that infinite repertoire of alternatives that gives macross this mystery aura to it.

[Duke Togo]

Yeah yeah, Civil war!

BAD IS GOOD, BABY, DOWN WITH GOVERNMENT!

[Druna Skass]

After Macross 7 you still think Kawamori would want to make a depressing series?

Not exactly depressing, but something that isn't all happy and nice like the way Macross 7 was.

Something kind of "gritty" like with corruption, shady dealings, backstabing, etc.

[Abombz!!]

Honestly... I don't know how far Macross could move. What sorts of incidents could Kawamori "portray" after Macross 7? The Zentradi war is over, the proto devlins goned, would a civil war really be that interesting? Would watching battle of valkyries against valkyries really be that hot? Watching a bunch of politicians, who we don't care about, do shady business while the pilots are out there killing themselves really that interesting?

If Kawamori was to make a new series.... I seriously hope he introduces a new alien threat. Because honestly, and I know I will get some flak for saying this, a civil war would feel way too much like something out of the Gundam universe. <_<

Perhaps he could do a series about Max and Millia between the end of SDF and the beginning of Macross 7. Or even come up with brand new characters between those 2 dates.

Edited January 10, 2004 by Abombz!!

[Druna Skass]

Well, while a civil war would seem like something out of Gundam it could set the stage for an era with diffrent political enities (like nations) to take place afterwards, and that could open up all kinds of other options.

Or Kawamori could go into the whole deal with the Renegade Power Armors, like who's making them and what their agenda is.

[JB0]

Aren't their other Zentradi fleets out there anyways?

It's always possible we could run into one of them and accidentally start another war.

[Abombz!!]

Aren't their other Zentradi fleets out there anyways?

It's always possible we could run into one of them and accidentally start another war.

But how big would the war be anyways? Wouldn't culture shock put at least 75% of the fleets out of comission? And how much of a threat would the rest be? The UN Spacy fleet would be quite large by then, and the New Macross class ships couldn't easily wipe out the remaining Zentradi fleets.

[JB0]

Aren't their other Zentradi fleets out there anyways?

It's always possible we could run into one of them and accidentally start another war.

But how big would the war be anyways? Wouldn't culture shock put at least 75% of the fleets out of comission? And how much of a threat would the rest be? The UN Spacy fleet would be quite large by then, and the New Macross class ships couldn't easily wipe out the remaining Zentradi fleets.

Maybe.

I got the impression that blowing the crap out of planets and contaminated ships had worked pretty well for them in the past. We humans got lucky.

And I somehow suspect that UN Spacey doesn't have as big a fleet as a zentradi one. Humans tend to funnel resources into other stuff, especially when there's no immediate threat.

...

OOOHHH!!!

What if there's a whole fleet built up of people that went the way of Kamjin, and embraced some aspects of culture but kept their zentradi roots alive and still run around engaging in rampant killing sprees.

[Aegis!]

Honestly... I don't know how far Macross could move. What sorts of incidents could Kawamori "portray" after Macross 7? The Zentradi war is over, the proto devlins goned, would a civil war really be that interesting? Would watching battle of valkyries against valkyries really be that hot? Watching a bunch of politicians, who we don't care about, do shady business while the pilots are out there killing themselves really that interesting?

If Kawamori was to make a new series.... I seriously hope he introduces a new alien threat. Because honestly, and I know I will get some flak for saying this, a civil war would feel way too much like something out of the Gundam universe.

Perhaps he could do a series about Max and Millia between the end of SDF and the beginning of Macross 7. Or even come up with brand new characters between those 2 dates.

Totally agree with you.

A civil war scenario would feel like a Gundam rip-off , and Macross should NEVER ever fall that low , following the same steps as other shows , even if they´re the most popular as Gundam is is not only lame and unoriginal but down right pitiful and after 20 years of setting the standards of quality in the anime industry Macross doesn´t need to follow that path.

Unfortunately doing a series about Millia or Max during the post-SW1 pre-M+ era would just be Macross M3 all over again , just as a Macross series focused on corruption would be too close to VF-X2´s plot.

Based on the fact that the big K doesn´t like that much to reuse old characters I doubt we´ll ever see Max or Millia ever again as costars ( that would be the 4th time we see them ).

What about the rest of the protoculture colonised planets , those that still had not been attacked by the Zentradi army (like Zola) ? What about those that WERE attacked by the Zentrans/Meltrans , wouldn´t they like to get their revenge ? considering that Zentrans/Meltrans are now assimilated into our culture wouldn´t such a conflict affect us as well ?

Maybe something in the lines of M7 Trash would work , but once again that would be a copy of a previous work.

At the end we´re are left wondering and that suspense is what keeps my addiction alive

I suppose Kawamori could take the chance of expanding the events that ocurred between 2012-2039 , maybe prototype test flights in colony planets while a major conflict starts to unveil ?

What about the continuity of Macross Zero ? no , I ain´t talking about SW1 but rather the period where M0 events are disclosed 50 years later , wouldn´t that have an effect in society , has society been kept ignorant about Protoculture all this years ?

What if they found more advanced overtechnology developed during the last years of the Protoculture and other PC colonies started a bellic campaign in an effort not to unveil the Protoculture legacy (whatever that is )?

[Duke Togo]

Would watching battle of valkyries against valkyries really be that hot?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am getting wood.

[JsARCLIGHT]

This is most likely going to be taken the wrong way, but here it is anyway:

What if a new Macross took a totally different take on the world of Macross (like Kawamori seems to do every time) and this time around had nothing to do with war or fighting?

I've always imagined a macross series where the main cast are explorers travelling a few years ahead of a Megaroad colony ship scouting out the solar system and potential planets to colonize. You can still have Valkyries but they would be of the variety of Elintseekers and Super Ostritches, but outfitted with long range scanners and cameras that relay back to their small carrier that sends the info back to the Megaroad far behind them...

You could take that situation in one of many different ways: the scout team could get sucked into a black hole or something and they have to find their way back to their Megaroad fleet... they could encounter remnants of the protoculture who have evolved into an entirely new species... or (horror of horrors) they could discover the truth of what happened to the Megaroad 01 and only they know and the brass make them cover it up (for whatever reason)...

Macross does not always have to be about war and hostility... but at the same time it needs to be engaging and "smart" with no hoaky singing idiots or sailor moon bad guys. I would like to see a macross show like that, that delves deep into the personal relationships and plots rather than using them as string to knit together a bunch of robot action.

[Abombz!!]

A civil war scenario would feel like a Gundam rip-off , and Macross should NEVER ever fall that low , following the same steps as other shows , even if they´re the most popular as Gundam is is not only lame and unoriginal but down right pitiful and after 20 years of setting the standards of quality in the anime industry Macross doesn´t need to follow that path.

Ok... lets try to keep the level of this thread and not flame bait Gundam fans, because you know as well as everyone else here that the old Gundam shows have as much quality as Macross does. With that out of the way.... its kind of a funny statement... considering it also gave us Macross 7, which I consider to be the G Gundam and Gundam Wing of Macross, and showed us how not everything in Macross is a synonim(sp) for quality (heh... another thing where Macross resembles Gundam )

With that out of the way.... I would love to see a series that concentrated on Zentradi characters piloting Zentradi mech, maybe even some new tech like transformable Zentradi fighters or something. The setting doesn't really matter, but something set after Macross 7 would work just as well as something way before Macross Zero.

The Zentradis are great unexplored terrain.... it would be nice to have some cool Zentradi characters that aren't Millia. And it would be nice to have a show that concentrates on how Zentradi squads work.

[Abombz!!]

This is most likely going to be taken the wrong way, but here it is anyway:

What if a new Macross took a totally different take on the world of Macross (like Kawamori seems to do every time) and this time around had nothing to do with war or fighting?

I've always imagined a macross series where the main cast are explorers travelling a few years ahead of a Megaroad colony ship scouting out the solar system and potential planets to colonize. You can still have Valkyries but they would be of the variety of Elintseekers and Super Ostritches, but outfitted with long range scanners and cameras that relay back to their small carrier that sends the info back to the Megaroad far behind them...

You could take that situation in one of many different ways: the scout team could get sucked into a black hole or something and they have to find their way back to their Megaroad fleet... they could encounter remnants of the protoculture who have evolved into an entirely new species... or (horror of horrors) they could discover the truth of what happened to the Megaroad 01 and only they know and the brass make them cover it up (for whatever reason)...

Macross does not always have to be about war and hostility... but at the same time it needs to be engaging and "smart" with no hoaky singing idiots or sailor moon bad guys. I would like to see a macross show like that, that delves deep into the personal relationships and plots rather than using them as string to knit together a bunch of robot action.

Heh.... reading that out loud.... the theme song of Star Trek and Enterprise started playing in my head.