Macross 7 Discussion

[Master Dex]

Heh.. well he is basically a space hippie in the whole sense of being a pacifist and the peace and love angle.. just like Lennon.

Hmm.. if John Lennon had a Valkyrie...

[Ghostbear0]

Dynamite 7 in which Basara is one of the more reasonable characters......

[Zinjo]

After the foul taste Delta left me with, M7 actually looks good by comparison, with respect to story. Yes, armageddon has begun...

I blame finally watching FB7 and being reminded of some of the fairly well done scenes from that series.

Will NEVER like Basara, on that we are unanimous!

[Master Dex]

Will NEVER like Basara, on that we are unanimous!

*Actually kinda likes Basara because he tends to like the a-hole character with a complex reason for being an a-hole in shows*

[Castel]

Everything i dislike now about Macross, the whole over the top silliness, pretty much started with Macross 7 and man, Frontier and Delta sure followed that path lol.

In its own way it is indeed a crucial part in Macross history cause it gave the franchise a new tone. Not one obviously i enjoy but hey, maybe that's precisely what some people love now about Macross so maybe it was for the best, i don't know.

Macross Plus and Zero though were different in that aspect so it's interesting to note that they did try different flavors and that's something commendable.

[JB0]

Also noticed on review: With the benefit of knowing how things end, it sure looks like Gigil is the first protodeviln to learn to create spiritia.

Pity it was moments before he kamikaze'd a whole friggin' planet to death.

[Master Dex]

Also noticed on review: With the benefit of knowing how things end, it sure looks like Gigil is the first protodeviln to learn to create spiritia.

Pity it was moments before he kamikaze'd a whole friggin' planet to death.

I also realized this upon reaching that episode, which made the whole thing sadder really. He was able to uncover the secret but was so focused on saving Sivil he wasn't able to show his contemporaries the better way. It is also possible Gigil was so caught up in his feelings he just couldn't tell either.

[JB0]

I also realized this upon reaching that episode, which made the whole thing sadder really. He was able to uncover the secret but was so focused on saving Sivil he wasn't able to show his contemporaries the better way. It is also possible Gigil was so caught up in his feelings he just couldn't tell either.

I think he had to have realized what he'd done on some level, because where else could he have gotten all that spiritia?

He suddenly had enough awaken his true form, implode a planet, and still have some left over to recharge Sivil... all without draining anyone.

He just had a very limited amount of time to act. Maybe he simply trusted that others would learn the ways of the Anima Spiritia as he had. Heck, Gabil was spending almost as much time listening to Basara as Gigil was(and I have trouble taking the protodeviln seriously because of their names).

Basically, Gigil is the true star of 7.

[sketchley]

(...) (and I have trouble taking the protodeviln seriously because of their names).

Basically, Gigil is the true star of 7.

It may help to use the straight Hepburn romanization of the name: Gigiru. Or an aspirated version if that's not your cup of tea: Gihgihruh.

Agreed about Gigiru being the true star of the show.

[JB0]

It actually does help a lot. Thanks!

[Master Dex]

All I can say is this is the BEAUTY OF UNDERSTANDING!!!

Sorrynotsorry.

[JB0]

The beauty of pointless posts!

[RedWolf]

Interesting to note VHS / LD "Macross dynamite 7 Volume 3 solitary - LONESOME -" liner notes mention if you look deeply Nupetiet-Vergnitzs was modeled after Galactc Whale.

So the Protoculture may have not just worshiped the Vajra. The Fish Human?

 

[Master Dex]

I.. never considered that before... but it is almost obvious really. They look insanely similar.

Frontier basically implied the birdman was loosely designed based on the Protoculture's inspiration from the Vajra though. You can kind of see it in the quasi-organic technology that the birdman is made out of as well. I could be messing up the timeline but it is not impossible that the birdman was a precursor or test version of some of the tech that formed the super dimension organs used for the Evil series later (which as we know.. didn't end up working so well.. or really.. was a case of gone horribly right, once interdimensional vampires possessed them anyway).

Sometimes it is hard to believe we're talking about science fiction here...

[pengbuzz]

On 10/21/2016 at 5:30 PM, Mazinger said:

My personal favorites:

* Angel Voice

* Dynamite Explosion

* My Soul for you

* Submarine Street (acoustic preferred)

* Remember 16 (acoustic preferred)

* Heart & Soul

Though I love M7, totsugeki Love Heart, Planet Dance, and Holy Lonely Night, the traditional favorites, just don't do it for me.

I may be weird though, because I much prefer any song from Delta to ANY song from Frontier.

I love Totsugeki Love Heart and Holy Lonely Night! Those aside, you got a good list going there of M& music.

[pengbuzz]

On 11/20/2016 at 8:56 PM, JB0 said:

The beauty of pointless posts!

Somehow, I imagine Gabil ending up working in a hair salon....

[Zx31]

Just curious if anyone has an abridged list of episodes for 7. I watched the whole series and really enjoyed it, but the length makes it a bit harder to recommend to friends with less time to spend on a show, so knowing what episodes might be skippable would be helpful.

[Graham]

On 11/20/2016 at 5:08 PM, sketchley said:

It may help to use the straight Hepburn romanization of the name: Gigiru. Or an aspirated version if that's not your cup of tea: Gihgihruh.

Agreed about Gigiru being the true star of the show.

No, no, no Gamlin and Mylene are the true stars of the show.

[Devil 505]

5 hours ago, Graham said:

No, no, no Gamlin and Mylene are the true stars of the show.

Please, we all know who the true star of Macross 7 is.

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Devil 505

[JB0]

That's odd, I don't SEE Gubaba in that picture...

[Devil 505]

10 hours ago, JB0 said:

That's odd, I don't SEE Gubaba in that picture...

I thought we were talking about Macross 7, not MW Forum members. /s

(I still romanize it as "Guvava.")

[Spunky]

I have so far seen up to episode 4.  PLEASE tell me the lousy repetitive intro narration about the space colonization goes away at some point, right?

 

As for Fire Bomber songs, I am a total fiend for "Planet Dance" both the solo and duet versions.

[Master Dex]

Is fiend a good thing in this context?

And the intro changes after a bit. I don't remember exactly when but eventually it will alter to represent recent events in the show or basic data on character relevant to the current episode and such. I often just started skipping it though.

[Spunky]

8 hours ago, Master Dex said:

Is fiend a good thing in this context?

And the intro changes after a bit. I don't remember exactly when but eventually it will alter to represent recent events in the show or basic data on character relevant to the current episode and such. I often just started skipping it though.

Thanks for the feedback!  As for "fiend", yeah it's good, it means I am a huge fan of the song in all it's forms.

[Master Dex]

Good! Cause you'll keep hearing it! A lot.

They do eventually start mixing in other songs and by midway in the show you start to hear Planet Dance less and less... but it always comes back like their banner song (that and Totsugeki Love Heart which is actually probably the real banner song of Fire Bomber, but I <3 that song forever so it's good with me).

[Zinjo]

On 11/19/2016 at 11:54 PM, JB0 said:

I think he had to have realized what he'd done on some level, because where else could he have gotten all that spiritia?

He suddenly had enough awaken his true form, implode a planet, and still have some left over to recharge Sivil... all without draining anyone.

He just had a very limited amount of time to act. Maybe he simply trusted that others would learn the ways of the Anima Spiritia as he had. Heck, Gabil was spending almost as much time listening to Basara as Gigil was(and I have trouble taking the protodeviln seriously because of their names).

Basically, Gigil is the true star of 7.

He was certainly the most complex character written.

[Zinjo]

On 4/25/2017 at 3:19 AM, Master Dex said:

Good! Cause you'll keep hearing it! A lot.

They do eventually start mixing in other songs and by midway in the show you start to hear Planet Dance less and less... but it always comes back like their banner song (that and Totsugeki Love Heart which is actually probably the real banner song of Fire Bomber, but I <3 that song forever so it's good with me).

Those songs were so often repeated, I saw them with contempt after a while.  The law of diminishing returns was not considered in the composing for this series.

[ZOR prime]

I've researched Macross 7 also, I really enjoyed it again. Saw something I didn't Macross 5 Fleet totally zentadie. Which is cool.

And the proto Devlin drive them nuts.

[ZOR prime]

macross 7 encore, was different.

Mylene didn't make a choice between Basara and Gamlin

And macross 7 plus was a nice addition.

Edited July 10, 2017 by ZOR prime
extra

[Valkyrie Driver]

Macross is one of my favorite anime franchises. I needed to get that out there. To say I hated Macross 7 would be unfair, but it is probably my least favorite entry into the series. It did introduce some of my favorite Macross Mecha however, and gave me more of my favorite Characters, as well as introducing some characters I liked. All of the things that make 7 praise worthy to me though are overshadowed by a few things;

1. Nekki Basara. Bear with me here, he's about as 3 dimensional as a piece of tissue paper, and has the emotional depth of a kiddie pool. He doesn't grow as the series progresses, and is thoroughly unlikeable. Despite this, we are "treated" to him over and over as he jumps in his fire valkyrie and flies out into combat, and ends up doing nothing except getting in the way. He's arrogant and self righteous and egotistical, and the fact that the other characters not only acknowledge this, but openly criticize it, makes his presence as the protagonist a jarring experience. 

2. Repetition and Pacing. The series is very repetitive and formulaic. Granted it's difficult not to be in a ~50 episode series, but it gets that way too quickly and it's a grind to get through it and to the real meat of the show. This also has the effect of making the series drag a fair bit, and so the Pacing is just too slow. I'm not demanding more action, but the show seemed a bit lethargic at times.

3. Spiritia/Sound Energy Theory. I get it, Macross likes music. I like Music. I like Music in Macross. I like the Music from Macross. But, I liked it better when music had something in Macross that couldn't be quantified. Granted Macross 7 didn't jump the shark in a lot of the ways that Frontier and Delta did, but it did set the trend. I also dislike how the show handled it, making Fire Bomber the only hope, rather than just making the the strongest option.

Now, these are just the things that keep Macross 7 out of my top 3. I chose to do my entry here in this manner because it was simply shorter to list the things I didn't like rather than try to list all of the things I did like. These three things are just so jarring to me as a viewer, especially with how much I get beaten about the head with Basara and Sound Energy. It's not that I don't like the concept, I just think the series could have done better. Maybe if 7 had focused a bit more on Mylene rather than Basara, and maybe shown a bit more of Mylene and Gamlin's relationship with Basara as more of a supporting character it would have been a bit better. Mylene and Gamlin probably had the most growth as characters, which is awkward when Basara is the "main" character.

Aside from that, I love the mecha. They remain some of my favorites, and my Yamato VF-19F has a place of honor in my collection, right beside my VF-11C.

That's just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.

[ZOR prime]

Yeah it was strange,m7 plus gave us a brief glimpse of what was happening?

But left me in the dark, mylene had to make a decision between Basara and Gamlin.

 

And she never did 

The strongest women another renegade zentadie Fleet?

 

So on

[Master Dex]

2 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Macross is one of my favorite anime franchises. I needed to get that out there. To say I hated Macross 7 would be unfair, but it is probably my least favorite entry into the series. It did introduce some of my favorite Macross Mecha however, and gave me more of my favorite Characters, as well as introducing some characters I liked. All of the things that make 7 praise worthy to me though are overshadowed by a few things;

1. Nekki Basara. Bear with me here, he's about as 3 dimensional as a piece of tissue paper, and has the emotional depth of a kiddie pool. He doesn't grow as the series progresses, and is thoroughly unlikeable. Despite this, we are "treated" to him over and over as he jumps in his fire valkyrie and flies out into combat, and ends up doing nothing except getting in the way. He's arrogant and self righteous and egotistical, and the fact that the other characters not only acknowledge this, but openly criticize it, makes his presence as the protagonist a jarring experience. 

2. Repetition and Pacing. The series is very repetitive and formulaic. Granted it's difficult not to be in a ~50 episode series, but it gets that way too quickly and it's a grind to get through it and to the real meat of the show. This also has the effect of making the series drag a fair bit, and so the Pacing is just too slow. I'm not demanding more action, but the show seemed a bit lethargic at times.

3. Spiritia/Sound Energy Theory. I get it, Macross likes music. I like Music. I like Music in Macross. I like the Music from Macross. But, I liked it better when music had something in Macross that couldn't be quantified. Granted Macross 7 didn't jump the shark in a lot of the ways that Frontier and Delta did, but it did set the trend. I also dislike how the show handled it, making Fire Bomber the only hope, rather than just making the the strongest option.

Now, these are just the things that keep Macross 7 out of my top 3. I chose to do my entry here in this manner because it was simply shorter to list the things I didn't like rather than try to list all of the things I did like. These three things are just so jarring to me as a viewer, especially with how much I get beaten about the head with Basara and Sound Energy. It's not that I don't like the concept, I just think the series could have done better. Maybe if 7 had focused a bit more on Mylene rather than Basara, and maybe shown a bit more of Mylene and Gamlin's relationship with Basara as more of a supporting character it would have been a bit better. Mylene and Gamlin probably had the most growth as characters, which is awkward when Basara is the "main" character.

Aside from that, I love the mecha. They remain some of my favorites, and my Yamato VF-19F has a place of honor in my collection, right beside my VF-11C.

That's just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.

This is probably one of the most fair rebuttals to Macross 7 I've seen as you have managed to get to the meat of your three major issues (which are actually quite valid) without getting too emotional like many do when complaining the show is too silly or what not. To me Macross 7 introduced a good chunk of the existing Macross lore and without it Frontier would have a lot less to go on very likely. There is a clear progression going on between them all, and having returning characters like Max and Milia help that a lot I think.

I pretty much agree with your three points but I feel like digging into them a bit to flesh out why they happened at all perhaps.

Firstly, the elephant in the room known as Basara. Yeah, he's kind of an a-hole. Thing is, every time I rewatch this show, I am more and more convinced it only works because he's an a-hole. I think he was deliberately written that way, and if he was a more likeable character most of the plot wouldn't function quite the way it did. Basara can't be denied singing prowess or piloting skill (Gamlin, and even Max gave him some kudos there) but his main job in the narrative is to build up everyone else I think. Gamlin becomes a better pilot trying to keep up with Basara, and even softens his stance on music relative to combat (a lot of this was due to his interest in Mylene of course too). Mylene grows as a singer due to Basara pushing her, often pissing her off in the process. The UN Forces really hate him partly cause he bruises their egos but also he has no respect for them and yet still they relent his method ultimately has some purpose so they create the Jamming Birds (never mind the group was never successful until the very end but they had very little time to skill up). Plus it is clear Basara does care about people... but he goes about it in a rather rude manner, and still focuses on his interests mostly. He was essential to the story... because he's the giant prick they needed, just not the one they deserved, lol. Yeah he probably would have made a better secondary protagonist, but in my opinion Mylene was just as much a lead as he was in the show anyway.

The pacing..... actually there is not much to be said here, it is one of Macross 7's biggest sins. A lot of it is the length of the show of course, which was probably a studio choice rather than a writing choice. The show redone in a 2 cour format likely would be a lot easier to digest, or even in some revision movies like Frontier had. We could even put all the amazing mecha designs into fancy new CGI too perhaps. This is likely never gonna happen so I can dream, lol.

Song Energy finally... is kind of an issue for sure. I am of two minds here. I for one liked it better when the music was simply as aspect of the greater culture of humanity affecting our alien adversaries and allowing them to slowly empathize with us, which was why the Protoculture stringently forbade it among their warrior races. It meant music wasn't a weapon so much as a gateway drug of sorts to the emotional understanding between species. Macross 7 seemed to want to compound on this initially by Basara singing in order to open the eyes of the enemy and make them understand the fighting was pointless. This was ok to me. Later we got song energy projectors and sound boosters intended to better deliver the direct energy of song to the enemy as almost a weapon and.... somehow Basara was ok with that? Well really he seemed to have some issues but being the ass he is he was ok with forcing his song down the enemies throats with sci-fi tech to force them to listen and at least acknowledged in the movie and later episodes that the Protodeviln were extremely dangerous and his singing together with the song energy amplifiers could do something. However it is clear the original point of the music aspect of cultural contamination was already being lost in the details.

Frontier expanded this by basically confirming song energy was basically music reverberating through fold space and reacting to everyone on a weird hyper dimensional level and was more potent with the application of fold quartz which already was highly sought after for it's many super properties. I am lighter on Frontier because I don't mind them explaining the 'science' of what in Macross 7 was only vaguely defined at best (Chiba never explicitly explains what exactly song energy is after all, it's just kinda there). Frontier gives it more grounding which I was ok with, but at the same time facilitates the further separation from the original idea in SDFM that it wasn't just music but culture entirely. Now culture and music might as well be the same thing. Delta just took this to the logical conclusion from there (logical in that we'd already fallen off the wagon so why not just keep tumbling downhill) and essentially turned music into a full on combat system. Walkure never really was trying to empathize with the Windermerians or awaken them to the fact that they weren't so different, they were combating them and their evil song, and healing people with song therapy (itself something Macross 7 showcased and was one of the elements I was annoyed with there as well, who needs doctors when you have rock music after all..). So I don't blame Frontier specifically for what it did; even though they basically did the equivilant of midiclorians with song energy, but unlike The Force, no one really was that fond on song energy being a mysterious power already. I blame 7 for going from a sensible start to trying to overtech it in the wrong way, leaving a turd of an idea Frontier was left with no choice but to polish (and to be fair, they did an ok job of that). Delta on the other hand.... well they didn't really do as well at carrying the idea forward, and that is putting it lightly.

So yeah Driver, I'm totally with you. Those three things are big fails of 7, but I'm glad to hear you are still able to enjoy the rather large amount of comparative good in Macross 7 as well, much as I have. There really is a lot to love if you can get through it and actually put aside your knee jerk reactions to the glaring issues, and I truly thing more people owe it to themselves to try.

After all, it tells a story better than Delta did, lol.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

1. Nekki Basara. Bear with me here, he's about as 3 dimensional as a piece of tissue paper, and has the emotional depth of a kiddie pool. He doesn't grow as the series progresses, and is thoroughly unlikeable. Despite this, we are "treated" to him over and over as he jumps in his fire valkyrie and flies out into combat, and ends up doing nothing except getting in the way. He's arrogant and self righteous and egotistical, and the fact that the other characters not only acknowledge this, but openly criticize it, makes his presence as the protagonist a jarring experience. 

Among western fans, that's so far from atypical that I'd almost call it The Standard Response to Basara Nekki.  The usual (weak) defense of the character's overwhelming flaws is that he was more plot device than protagonist, meant to bring about character development in others rather than develop himself.  Essentially, that he is The Mentor to Mylene and Gamlin, though that's a line of reasoning that doesn't quite work because he's demonstrably the main character.  He's not actually a hero, he's just the Designated Hero.

Kiichi Goto from Mobile Police Patlabor basically summed up what's wrong with Basara in one of his rants:
"What do you think you're piloting? Great Mazinger? Dangaioh? For Pete's sake, this isn't some robot cartoon whose main character is an autistic kid or some punk."

It feels rather tasteless to have to say it, but Basara is precisely the kind of autistic protagonist Chief Goto was talking about.  Literally, it's very probable Basara is high-functioning autistic, considering his interests are restricted pretty much entirely to music and piloting for the entire course of the series, and he has so much trouble with social interactions.

 

 

3 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

2. Repetition and Pacing. The series is very repetitive and formulaic. Granted it's difficult not to be in a ~50 episode series, but it gets that way too quickly and it's a grind to get through it and to the real meat of the show. This also has the effect of making the series drag a fair bit, and so the Pacing is just too slow. I'm not demanding more action, but the show seemed a bit lethargic at times.

Well, it was a weekly anime series made on the cheap that veers into tokusatsu territory more than a bit... that much was probably inevitable.

Ever since my second watch-through, I've always tried to discourage people from attempting to marathon Macross 7 the way I did on my first time through.  The show is much easier to get through if you only do one or two episodes a day, and quickly becomes intolerably repetitive if you try to do more.  There was definitely way too much show left at the end of the plot most of the time, and feels like it should've been a two-cour series.

 

 

3 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

3. Spiritia/Sound Energy Theory. I get it, Macross likes music. I like Music. I like Music in Macross. I like the Music from Macross. But, I liked it better when music had something in Macross that couldn't be quantified. Granted Macross 7 didn't jump the shark in a lot of the ways that Frontier and Delta did, but it did set the trend. I also dislike how the show handled it, making Fire Bomber the only hope, rather than just making the the strongest option.

You have to remember, Macross might be a space opera but it isn't quite a Star Wars-type setting like Outlaw Star where there is actual goddamn space magic.  The impact of music was never unquantified or unquantifiable in the Macross metaseries, they just had to come up with new reasons for it to be relevant starting from Macross Plus because they couldn't continue getting away with every alien species in the galaxy having no concept of music or positive emotion.  That's why Minmay's songs messed with the Zentradi's heads... as clone soldiers that were engineered and educated for a life that consists purely of warfare and military duty, they didn't have the emotional or social framework to understand and process the concepts and feelings the songs were evoking.  The only thing their leadership could equate the effect to was mind control, which is why they nuked Earth for it.

From Macross Plus on, they constructed a variety of nested explanations for why songs had the power to sway emotions and mental states... starting with Sharon Apple manipulating the audience's brainwaves through her songs via biofeedback, and on to sort of a mild and generally benign form of the same kind of psychic shenanigans from Warhammer 40,000, with the "biological fold waves" essentially being a mild form of psychic ability communicating emotional states and other things.  Kind of fitting, if you think about Macross's recurring themes of music as communication.

For me, the bit that was infuriating wasn't necessarily that Fire Bomber was The Only Hope... but rather, that after establishing that it was equal parts natural ability and confidence, they proceeded to make everyone else with the ability either a disinterested spectator or running joke to prevent Fire Bomber from being upstaged.

 

 

3 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Aside from that, I love the mecha. They remain some of my favorites, and my Yamato VF-19F has a place of honor in my collection, right beside my VF-11C.

That's just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.

I loathed what the did to the VF-19, and how they treated the VF-11... for my money, the VF-11's one of the best looking main continuity planes, and it's the show's buttmonkey until Gamlin and Kinryu get in them.

[JB0]

Honestly, I can't blame 7 too much for the music=magic thing.  It is easy to blame Basara and Doctor Chiba, but it needs to be remembered that DYRL was the entry that elevated music's role from "an aspect of culture that is very easy to share" and on to something with actual special powers.  7 just made it explicit.

Really, the way music is handled, and the Minmay hero worship, makes most of the animation since then a sequel to DYRL. The original TV series standing at this point is basically "what if Macross took place in a weird parallel universe where music DOESN'T have supernatural properties and Minmay was just a pop star?". 

 

Also, I will never forgive Gamlin for blowing up Millia's VF-1. I'm kind of surprised she did.

[Mommar]

7 hours ago, JB0 said:

Honestly, I can't blame 7 too much for the music=magic thing.  It is easy to blame Basara and Doctor Chiba, but it needs to be remembered that DYRL was the entry that elevated music's role from "an aspect of culture that is very easy to share" and on to something with actual special powers.  7 just made it explicit.

Really, the way music is handled, and the Minmay hero worship, makes most of the animation since then a sequel to DYRL. The original TV series standing at this point is basically "what if Macross took place in a weird parallel universe where music DOESN'T have supernatural properties and Minmay was just a pop star?". 

 

Also, I will never forgive Gamlin for blowing up Millia's VF-1. I'm kind of surprised she did.

Yeah, I was just watching SDFM to get some screen shots for a friend of mine the other day and it struck me how much the music angle was retconned to be THE thing that controls everything.