Macross Elint Seeker

[Galaxy_Stranger]

Anybody know if there was any info on what squadrons had Elints and what their deployment spread was supposed to be? Were they in their own squadrons or did each squadron have a couple?

[Seto Kaiba]

Anybody know if there was any info on what squadrons had Elints and what their deployment spread was supposed to be?

There's very little information available on the operations of the VE-1 ELINT Seeker and the other VF-1 variants developed for AEW and recon use. The technical publications that go into detail on things like squadron organizations focus almost exclusively on the combat variants and neglect the support variants... and the oldest documents predate the VE-1 being a thing.

Were they in their own squadrons or did each squadron have a couple?

Based on the minimal available evidence for that period of Macross history, the VE-1 units were organized into dedicated Space Airborne Early Warning squadrons (SVAW). The only one I can recall that actually had an identified squadron affiliation appeared in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.2... a unit from the SVAW-12 Praerie Dogs, a unit stationed on the ARMD-213 Altamira.

[Galaxy_Stranger]

Ok, so it makes sense to presume they were organized like the US Navy - each plane type has its own squadrons that fulfill the designated role. In this case, the Elint acts as an E-2 Hawkeye and that's all that squadron does. Interesting how they decided to use a fighter for that role. An F-15 would never even be considered for anything like that.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, so it makes sense to presume they were organized like the US Navy - each plane type has its own squadrons that fulfill the designated role.

That would be consistent with the published material, yeah... though it's worth remembering that the UN Spacy was not actually a space navy organizationally-speaking. "Spacy" is short for "Space Military" (Space Forces) or "Space Army". They just nicked Navy-style hull class symbols and squadron designations.

In this case, the Elint acts as an E-2 Hawkeye and that's all that squadron does. Interesting how they decided to use a fighter for that role. An F-15 would never even be considered for anything like that.

That probably has a fair bit to do with the UN Spacy not having a proper space-capable ELINT or AEW/AWACS craft in its formative years. It had the ES-11D Cat's Eye recon plane, which is hinted to be a conventional aircraft converted for space use, but that clearly didn't cut it and they were forced to come up with something better suited to space combat... and, in that period, the gold standard was the VF-1.

The VEFR-1 "Funny Chinese" from the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series was every bit as improvised as the Cat's Eye, and the VE-1 refined the concept into a more production-worthy and modular form that meant with a little time and the right bolt-ons, a fighter could be converted into an AEW/AWACS/ELINT platform should the need arise.

(Though, in the Macross II parallel world timeline, the VE-1 was ALSO an improvised design invented aboard the SDF-1 during its return flight to Earth created as a modification of the VT-1 Ostrich.)

[mickyg]

I tend to look at the VE-1 as similar to the EA-18G "Growler" that is basically an F/A-18F Super hornet with a whole bunch of avionics and wiring upgrades to allow it to fulfil the ELINT role from a Fighter platform. Obviously the Super Hornet doesn't have the giant radome atop the back of the fuselage but the rest of the sensor package and ability to do jamming, is comparable.

[slide]

I tend to look at the VE-1 as similar to the EA-18G "Growler" that is basically an F/A-18F Super hornet with a whole bunch of avionics and wiring upgrades to allow it to fulfil the ELINT role from a Fighter platform. Obviously the Super Hornet doesn't have the giant radome atop the back of the fuselage but the rest of the sensor package and ability to do jamming, is comparable.

the Growler is taking over the EA-6B's role of electronic support/jamming/anti-radar attack, isn't it? E-2 Hawkeyes are still the Navy's AWACS bird.

I think they would use the VE-1 like SMS would use an RVF-25: loiter at the fringes of the combat zone, and relay more accurate forward observation data back to Macross, allowing the capitol ship to maintain some kind of emissions control.

the fact that It's unarmed suggests to me that a combat jamming role is not one of the VE-1s duties.

Edited September 29, 2016 by slide

[mickyg]

Yes, it definitely is the replacement for the EA-6B, very true. I was thinking the jamming and electronic intelligence gathering that both platforms do/did is more the case.

If I recall correctly, the VE and RVF models had that capability as well. I seem to recall young Luca jamming the vajra communications with his fold jammers and associated equipment on his RVF. Maybe the VE-1 didn't have that capability though.

The growler and prowler definitely don't do AWACS duty though, you're absolutely right. It seems the VE and RVF certainly can and do.

[Galaxy_Stranger]

When was the VEFR-1 "Funny Chinese" featured in SDF Macross? I don't remember seeing it.

[Seto Kaiba]

When was the VEFR-1 "Funny Chinese" featured in SDF Macross? I don't remember seeing it.

It has a "blink and you'll miss it" appearance in Ep27 of the original series... in that pan shot of the hundreds of fighters flying in front of the Storm Attacker-mode SDF-1 Macross.

[Sildani]

What kind of name is "Funny Chinese" anyway?

[Seto Kaiba]

What kind of name is "Funny Chinese" anyway?

It's a (politically incorrect) in-universe nickname... one inspired by the way the VEFR-1's radome is positioned over its head in battroid mode, in a manner reminiscent of the conical hats in many east Asian cultures including the Chinese douli and Japanese kasa.

(Not sure why it's Chinese, except maybe that the douli made for farmers that I've seen tend to be almost flat with a wide brim.)

Edit: I suppose a little casual racism may be in play, since Japan and China are not exactly on pally terms...

Edited September 30, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[slide]

Yes, it definitely is the replacement for the EA-6B, very true. I was thinking the jamming and electronic intelligence gathering that both platforms do/did is more the case.

If I recall correctly, the VE and RVF models had that capability as well. I seem to recall young Luca jamming the vajra communications with his fold jammers and associated equipment on his RVF. Maybe the VE-1 didn't have that capability though.

The growler and prowler definitely don't do AWACS duty though, you're absolutely right. It seems the VE and RVF certainly can and do.

to be fair, we never see enough of the VE-1 to know if it could jam *Throws up the metal horns, begins headbanging*

Yes, Luca's RVF Jams the Vajra's fold-comms, but it's also unclear [within the show at least] if that's a post-fold quartz capability, or if it could do it the whole time. since the F-22 can do both with it's in-nose radar, I'm just going to assume that the RVF had that option designed into it, they just never used it because the Vajra don't communicate with EM wave, but fold waves.

merging what I know of real space, combat tactics and Macross [a dangerous rabbit-hole to enter, let me assure you ], one would think that a RADAR-Jamming role would be of limited use, since any kind of EM emission [particularly something as broad-band as jamming signals] would be like lighting a bonfire at night... you'd be extremely visible to any antenna that could pick you out of the background noise of space, and even if they didn't know what you were, they'd know you were there, and a zentran fleet for example can level a barrage like nobody's business....

Covering a strike package by scrambling the enemy's targeting systems once they were trying to lock them up seems like the only time [other than "Don't let them talk to other Vajra" and simmilar comms-jamming situations] that it would even be considered.

short version: we need to see more VE-1 in action!!!!!!!!!

[slide]

Edit: I suppose a little casual racism may be in play, since Japan and China are not exactly on pally terms...

well, in the USAF/RCAF one of the multi-directional buttons on the flight control stick is referred to as the 'China Hat', because of it's similar appearance to said conical head-ware.

In Canada such a chapeau would be stereotypically associated with China...

Edited September 30, 2016 by slide

[Seto Kaiba]

to be fair, we never see enough of the VE-1 to know if it could jam *Throws up the metal horns, begins headbanging*

It is carrying a lot of fairly powerful radar and radio equipment, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if it possessed that capability.

Yes, Luca's RVF Jams the Vajra's fold-comms, but it's also unclear [within the show at least] if that's a post-fold quartz capability, or if it could do it the whole time.

The Aegis Pack used on the RVF-171 and RVF-25 was already a fold wave radar system before the EX upgrade was done, so it seems highly probable it possessed that capability all along. Its Macross Chronicle mechanic sheet identifies the RVF-171 as filling electronic warfare roles.

since the F-22 can do both with it's in-nose radar, I'm just going to assume that the RVF had that option designed into it, they just never used it because the Vajra don't communicate with EM wave, but fold waves.

As a fun quasi-related tidbit, the Phalanx destroid was a rare implementation of electronic attack in its most literal form... its radar was so powerful it could be used as a weapon in its own right.

[JB0]

As a fun quasi-related tidbit, the Phalanx destroid was a rare implementation of electronic attack in its most literal form... its radar was so powerful it could be used as a weapon in its own right.

DESTROID SUPREMACY!11111

[Seto Kaiba]

DESTROID SUPREMACY!11111

Either that or a way for the Daedalus's deck crew to cook a couple hundred breakfast burritos all at once...

[JB0]

Either that or a way for the Daedalus's deck crew to cook a couple hundred breakfast burritos all at once...

Still more useful than the VF-1's giant cigarette lighter!

[Galaxy_Stranger]

Still more useful than the VF-1's giant cigarette lighter!

Sez you!

[slide]

... something I just noticed, and it's so blindingly obvious I can't believe I hadn't thought of it until now:

they built the VE-1's because they were more economical/useful than building replacement ES-11's

[Seto Kaiba]

... something I just noticed, and it's so blindingly obvious I can't believe I hadn't thought of it until now:

they built the VE-1's because they were more economical/useful than building replacement ES-11's

As I said in an earlier post, the UN Spacy didn't have a fully space-capable AEW or ELINT platform and was making do with improvised solutions until they adopted the VE-1.

The ES-11 Cat's Eye was apparently an atmospheric jet that was retrofitted to operate in space, which would've made continuing to rely on it an unappealing prospect to say the least.

The VEFR-1 "Funny Chiniese" that was used alongside the Cat's Eye was also an improvised platform unsuited for use in space. It was a two-seater based upon the VF-1D, and shared that model's unfortunate shortcoming of having cut back or outright removed portions of the fighter's space survival/escape equipment to make room for the second seat in the standard nose block. It also had some functional problems, like being unable to employ all of its equipment when in fighter mode because several of the sensors replaced the hands. All told, not an ideal platform in general... let alone for space.

The VE-1 ELINT Seeker was basically third time lucky... a dedicated and fully space-capable AEW and ELINT platform that was built on the VT-1 platform, and as such dodged all the problems that dogged its predecessor. It could exploit the full range of its sensors in every mode, and it didn't need to sacrifice any survivability in order to accommodate its two-man crew thanks to the more spaceous VT-1 cockpit block.

[Aries Turner]

The SDF-1 had to do with whatever was available to her. It was either adapting the ES-11 for space use or not using those at all. I bet they also got a load of Avengers, Comancheros and Sea Sergeants without any obvious use other than spare avionics.

Once battles began, the engineers had their hands full with VF-1 to repair, or having lost so many pieces to be able to be fully restored to battle conditions. Those unfit for battle could still be used for secondary roles, and maintaining a single design was more sound than maintaining two or more. By the time a ES-11 was damaged, stripping the equipment to put in a VF-1 frame (**) that had lost combat capability for whatever reason was a sound option, thus the VEFR-1.

(**) See note below, in my next post.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Galaxy_Stranger]

But the VE-1 ELINT was only in DYRL, right?

[Aries Turner]

One of the many anachronistic designs put there in the 2031 reenactment, as building a VEFR-1 from spares for no other purpose than a movie would have been over the top.

I bet the presence of Destroids in DYRL only points to the surprisingly large number of survivors, as those were other mecha without any obvious role other than re-purposed mobile point defense, the MBR-07 being the worst case, used for battroid-mode training, demolition or construction roles.

(*) I am obviously making assumptions from an in-universe perspective. I am also assuming both VT-1 and VE-1 were made *after* Space War conclusion or otherwise not present either on Macross, Daedalus or Prometheus. Some extended universe assumptions made those available before SDF-1 first flight, but not necessarily deployed to.

(**) Although VF-1D have combat capability, I assume early in the Space War most of those on SDF-1 were stripped of combat equipment to repair VF-1As. Thus putting ES-11 avionics inside became a possibility.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Aries Turner]

As I feel like it, I think I can go on some more.

The UNAF was more than happy with EC-33B, the Navy had the aforementioned ES-11D in service, and using a combat fighter for their mission was kind of wasteful. Maybe there were plans, but the UNSpacy had the Oberth-class destroyer to investigate. The only ones with real necessity for an Early Warning type of craft was the crew of the stranded Macross, so it is somewhat safe to assume the first ever VEFR-1 was made there. Please mind the function of such a design is not only to detect, but to transmit enemy coordinates to nearby assets. Air Controllers are needed, inside the craft or outside, in some kind of base with unobstructed line of communication with both the early warning craft and fighter squadrons. Think about Luca's RVF-25: if he was involved in *any* form of combat, his capability as forward air controller/observer fell to zero. Thus the UNAF probably was *WAY* better served with the EC-33B.

After Space War, anything not physically or digitally aboard Macross was lost forever, or almost. Survivors evacuated into the Grand Cannon superweapons can be expected to be civilians directly involved in military R+D and/or living nearby. Think about this: we have seen an interplanetary passenger transport cruiser in Macross Plus before we ever saw again a passenger liner. Forget Boeing, forget Airbus, forget Ingalls, forget Daewoo Shipbuilding. Forget also about Hollywood FX industry and know-how: the technology may be there, but the art to combine it gracefully, not so. TV broadcast weather forecast kind of effects, at most, and Zentraedi bridge hologram technology later on (with entertainment focused byproducts). Have you seen any sport event broadcast lately on any Macross show? In time, those may, or may not have a comeback, but it may be a real possibility that sports involving any kind of violence may be frowned upon on fear of triggering Zentran aggressive berserk-like behavior.

Space defense against further Zentraedi attacks could have been managed by Britai Kridanik remaining Adoclass fleet to a degree, but capturing a Factory Satellite was a priority to have any chance of survival against any sizable fleet. Adapting such satellite to produce new designs, from emigrant ships all the way down to reconstruction equipment, was a necessity. Capability to replenish losses was also crucial, so one of the first designs adapted to be produced in the factory satellite would have been the VF-1, which the Macross engineers and civilians involved in OT projects near Grand Cannons knew so well. I'll put, without further evidence, the origin of VT-1 and VE-1 there. And then the even less militarized, somewhat larger Shuttle/ Small Cargo/ Jack-of-all-trades RC-4 Rabbit.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

But the VE-1 ELINT was only in DYRL, right?

Its first appearance was in DYRL?, though available technical material suggests that it was developed shortly before the First Space War and was not available in significant numbers until after the war ended.

Once battles began, the engineers had their hands full with VF-1 to repair, or having lost so many pieces to be able to be fully restored to battle conditions. Those unfit for battle could still be used for secondary roles, and maintaining a single design was more sound than maintaining two or more. By the time a ES-11 was damaged, stripping the equipment to put in a VF-1 frame (**) that had lost combat capability for whatever reason was a sound option, thus the VEFR-1.

Alas, no.

Perhaps I should have chosen a better word than "improvised" to describe the design origin of the VEFR-1. It wasn't something the crew of the Macross put together, it was one of a number of special purpose variants that were built only in the earliest VF-1 production blocks to fill a particular operational niche before the introduction of a proper dedicated model. Almost all of the "improvised" designs belong to the first five production blocks of the VF-1, while the purpose-built replacements for same tend to belong to Block 6 and later.

The best known of these is the VF-1D, a model conversion trainer with a modified cockpit block that compromised its survivability in space by removing or reducing survival and escape equipment to make room for the second seat and set of controls... and, consequentially, was only produced in small numbers and largely kept to atmospheric service before being replaced by the purpose-built VT-1.

The VEFR-1 is another such design, also built off the early and flawed tandem cockpit design used by the VF-1D and suffering many of the same flaws. It was built in extremely low numbers (VFMF suggests only a dozen) and was also kept mainly to atmospheric service before being replaced by the VE-1.

The ES-11's radome and sensor equipment probably wouldn't fit on a VF-1, as the radome alone is almost large enough to park a VF-1 on.

One of the many anachronistic designs put there in the 2031 reenactment, as building a VEFR-1 from spares for no other purpose than a movie would have been over the top.

Or they may have been using the VE-1 on the rationale that the VE-1 entered service at some point in mid-2008 as part of Block 6, and was thus a period appropriate aircraft.

After Space War, anything not physically or digitally aboard Macross was lost forever, or almost. Survivors evacuated into the Grand Cannon superweapons can be expected to be civilians directly involved in military R+D and/or living nearby.

Why does everyone always forget about the space colonies in orbit, the bases and colony on the moon, and the manufacturing station at Earth-Moon L5 which served as Earth's primary shipyard until the capture of the Esbeliben AWDAP facility after the war?

Think about this: we have seen an interplanetary passenger transport cruiser in Macross Plus before we ever saw again a passenger liner.

That was a purpose-built interstellar cruise liner, not some repurposed warship.

Forget also about Hollywood FX industry and know-how: the technology may be there, but the art to combine it gracefully, not so. TV broadcast weather forecast kind of effects, at most, and Zentraedi bridge hologram technology later on (with entertainment focused byproducts). Have you seen any sport event broadcast lately on any Macross show? In time, those may, or may not have a comeback, but it may be a real possibility that sports involving any kind of violence may be frowned upon on fear of triggering Zentran aggressive berserk-like behavior.

It's generally an unwise assumption to assume that just because we haven't seen a thing in the show that it doesn't exist.

Indeed, sports are still very much a thing and still televised. Macross 7 Trash is an entire story about a professional athlete, and they televised his matches all through the 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet (and possibly beyond). Air racing is a sport, and there's an entire Macross light novel devoted to it (Macross the Ride), and we know those events are broadcast throughout the galaxy. Motorcycle racing was also shown in Macross M3, with Milia herself as a participant.

Macross Perfect Memory mentions that in the years following the First Space War, the Zentradi broke into a number of industries including sports... wrestling, and apparently women's wrestling in particular, apparently had an unusual resurgence as a result. (One of the pictures in that Lost Two Years segment is of a Zentradi women's wrestling match being refereed by a VF-1A.)

[Aries Turner]

Perhaps I should have chosen a better word than "improvised" to describe the design origin of the VEFR-1. It wasn't something the crew of the Macross put together, it was one of a number of special purpose variants that were built only in the earliest VF-1 production blocks to fill a particular operational niche before the introduction of a proper dedicated model.

Correct me if I am wrong, but those 'facts' are stated in non-canon Variable Fighter Master File VF-1 Space Wings, that itself state that is a work of fiction 'based on the 2030 book'... or something like that. That also goes for what you asserted about the VE-1 'being available before Space War'. For all we know, VEFR-1 may in fact be one of a kind, and is a fact be don't see any VT-1, VE-1 or VC-1 until way later. At best, that book could be considered as civil research on military unclassified reports, two decades later, as many Salamander Books about military forces all around the world. Those may be as close to truth as 'original research' disproving Apollo Moon Landing, however.

Why does everyone always forget about the space colonies in orbit, the bases and colony on the moon, and the manufacturing station at Earth-Moon L5 which served as Earth's primary shipyard until the capture of the Esbeliben AWDAP facility after the war?

Oops. Those survived the war? Or were destroyed by Bodolza fleet as well? I was under the impression not even ancient edifications were spared, as an alien species may be unaware if the pyramids house none or thousands of micronians, or about its purpose, civil, military or otherwise. Why I say that? Hikaru flied day after day for any hint of green. Not even Amazonas forest location provided any. And there are no evident targets in Amazonas, beyond Brasilia City.

That was a purpose-built interstellar cruise liner

Alas, I should have used another phrasing for that: we see an interstellar cruise liner way before any kind of large airliner.

It's generally an unwise assumption to assume that just because we haven't seen a thing in the show that it doesn't exist.

Agreed, under the assumption the original author may well say 'hey! you have not seen any until now, but the things have existed since...'. However, until the time of such kind of statements, what is not shown, may or may not exist. Like the limited number of VEFR-1, VT-1 and VE-1 Variable Fighter Master File assures existed before SDF-1 launch.

Every one of the sport events you cited (except Macross M3 motorcycling) happen way after Macross Plus. And racing is not necessarily violent or prone to contact between participants (it may happen, but not in the same way as football). And those were the ones broadcasted. I didn't state anywhere that people stopped practicing sports. In impoverished Earth, it may be one of the very few distractions. It is broadcasting those what seems to be infrequent for at least an entire generation.

I am however curious about the fact it is never on screen, but on manga or videogames that those events are portrayed. Even more curious is that Macross Trash 'T-Crush' is an ultraviolent sport that involves something not developed until 2039. As I have not read the manga, I don't know its legality status (seems highly illegal) or if it is broadcasted in any way.

[Edit] About the size of ES-11 antenna, what I said was 'avionics installed on an emptied VF-1D'. The (mostly) 2D antenna may be irrelevant in space, with blind sector directly above and directly below, or may be overkill for Gloval needs or research may have made a smaller antenna as sensitive as the larger one, or close, with some additional radar antennas covering blind sectors. The only thing it is known for sure is that by Space War end, an Early Warning adaptation of VF-1 was used instead of a hastily-converted-for-space ES-11D. Maybe maneuverability served it better than longer range for the envisioned engagement.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

Correct me if I am wrong, but those 'facts' are stated in non-canon Variable Fighter Master File VF-1 Space Wings, that itself state that is a work of fiction 'based on the 2030 book'... or something like that. That also goes for what you asserted about the VE-1 'being available before Space War'. For all we know, VEFR-1 may in fact be one of a kind, and is a fact be don't see any VT-1, VE-1 or VC-1 until way later. At best, that book could be considered as civil research on military unclassified reports, two decades later, as many Salamander Books about military forces all around the world. Those may be as close to truth as 'original research' disproving Apollo Moon Landing, however.

Some of the specific dates do... but in this case it's the writers of Master File showing the audience that they've done their homework. The part about the deficiencies of the early model tandem cockpit blocks goes way back. In fact, I recall that was cited as the reason the VF-1D wasn't depicted in DYRL? in the "VF History" piece done for Macross II back in 1992. I'd have to check, but that may go all the way back to the original VF-1 tech manual.

There are, for the record, official publications which establish the presence of VT-1 and VE-1 units during the First Space War. The "Variable Fighter Aero Report" in This is Animation Macross Plus is one such source. To give an example, it establishes the presence of a UN Spacy Marine Corps training squadron, SVMAT-102 and its VT-1 Super Ostriches, aboard ARMD-04 Clemenceau for three months starting in October 2009. (It also places a UN Spacy unit with VT-1s, SVT-24) aboard ARMD-02 Invincible.)

What little official information exists for the VEFR-1 paints it as an official variant, so I doubt it's an in-the-field design. (The Macross II timeline actually paints the VE-1 as a semi-official field customization built on the VT-1 by the Macross's onboard factory and the test teams who embarked to evaluate the performance of the Super Valkyrie.)

The Master File books present themselves as in-universe publications published in various in-universe years (2020, 2030, 2067, etc.), and their contents aren't strictly canon... but then, they're also periodically corroborated by official sources too.

Oops. Those survived the war? Or were destroyed by Bodolza fleet as well? I was under the impression not even ancient edifications were spared, as an alien species may be unaware if the pyramids house none or thousands of micronians, or about its purpose, civil, military or otherwise. Why I say that?

Oh, the Zentradi absolutely did a number on Earth's surface... but that's what they focused on, to the exclusion of all else (or maybe they never just got 'round to the rest). So they missed the space colonies, the moon bases and colony, the L5 manufacturing station, and so on... which proved to be quite fortunate, since it meant there were more survivors than the ones in Grand Cannon III and V, and they had space-based manufacturing capabilities that'd escaped the war unscathed.

That's how they were able to turn out a massive emigrant ship so fast after the war... they were building the SDF-2 as a Macross-class ship at Apollo Base on Luna, and once the war ended they converted the incomplete ship into an emigrant ship instead. The carriers and so on that accompanied it were built at the L5 manufacturing station and factories in those space colonies. (This is also how the only surviving parts of the VF-X-3 program survived... some photographs and one part contracted out to a space factory escaped destruction while everything else went up in smoke.)

Alas, I should have used another phrasing for that: we see an interstellar cruise liner way before any kind of large airliner.

That probably has a lot to do with the relative size and efficiency of fold systems... they were big, unwieldy things for most of the postwar years, and small fold systems like a fold booster were only good for an extremely small object over an extremely short distance, one way only. It probably took a while to miniaturize the engine technology enough to mount a fold system that was reusable and long ranged on something the size of a jet airliner.

It is broadcasting those what seems to be infrequent for at least an entire generation.

I doubt it... Macross 7 Trash paints a picture of an educational system where sports (televised in particular) are one of the key things keeping physical school campuses open... and that this state of affairs has been the norm for some time.

As I have not read the manga, I don't know its legality status (seems highly illegal) or if it is broadcasted in any way.

It's quite official, not bootleg. Drawn by Mikimoto-sensei himself.

[Aries Turner]

There are, for the record, official publications which establish the presence of VT-1 and VE-1 units during the First Space War. The "Variable Fighter Aero Report" in This is Animation Macross Plus is one such source. To give an example, it establishes the presence of a UN Spacy Marine Corps training squadron, SVMAT-102 and its VT-1 Super Ostriches, aboard ARMD-04 Clemenceau for three months starting in October 2009. (It also places a UN Spacy unit with VT-1s, SVT-24) aboard ARMD-02 Invincible.)

So started to be deployed, but no one was present in either Macross, Prometheus or Daedalus.

That probably has a lot to do with the relative size and efficiency of fold systems... they were big, unwieldy things for most of the postwar years, and small fold systems like a fold booster were only good for an extremely small object over an extremely short distance, one way only. It probably took a while to miniaturize the engine technology enough to mount a fold system that was reusable and long ranged on something the size of a jet airliner.

... Let's try again. After Space War, we saw a spacefaring cruise liner, way before we ever saw again any kind of airliner. Airliner meaning it has no space capability in any way, and of course no fold capability. Shipbuilding know-how was also probably affected, if one is to judge the seaworthiness of space ships by the big stability keel of Uraga-class pointing to stability problems in high sea states (that she can absolutely avoid by simply taking off).

I doubt it... Macross 7 Trash paints a picture of an educational system where sports (televised in particular) are one of the key things keeping physical school campuses open... and that this state of affairs has been the norm for some time.

Educational. Not violent. Educational. See the trend?

It's quite official, not bootleg. Drawn by Mikimoto-sensei himself.

The legality of T-Crush sport. Not the manga. The sport. Edited October 4, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Galaxy_Stranger]

Non-canon sources aside, the biggest problem I have with many of the ideas proposed here is that it includes DYRL as part of the original timeline. Am I confused about what DYRL represents in terms of the original series?

[Aries Turner]

A 2031 movie. Within the official timeline.

However, feel free to be confused, as the original series itself has been stated as a drama series about the real events. What 'real' events? Think about W.W.2nd. That was real. Every one of the series, dramas, movies and even documentaries are to some degree a certain retelling of the events, even the closer to truth ones.

Most of us consider SDFM series the most close to the 'real' events as some controversial events are not hidden in any way, as both South Ataria and Ontario disasters, both event left out of the DYRL? retelling.

Back to the issue at hand, Macross had an onboard production facility that churned out 1 HWR-00-Mk. II Monster, 40 ADR-04-Mk. X Defender and over 20 SDR-04-Mk. XII Phalanx. Why it didn't built VT-1 or VE-1 is anyone guess, as it was more than capable of building a VEFR-1.

Accepted canon may say otherwise, but onscreen canon make it feel counter-intuitive.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

So started to be deployed, but no one was present in either Macross, Prometheus or Daedalus....

Technically, there would have been if the Zentradi hadn't sunk ARMD-02... one of the two ships intended to dock with the Macross. Whether there were any or not among the Macross's carrier air wings is unclear, because we've never yet had a full inventory of the ~300+ VF-1s assigned to it throughout the entire war. There weren't any when she launched, but we don't know if she could have picked some up when she returned to Earth and was resupplied.

Let's try again. After Space War, we saw a spacefaring cruise liner, way before we ever saw again any kind of airliner. Airliner meaning it has no space capability in any way, and of course no fold capability. Shipbuilding know-how was also probably affected, if one is to judge the seaworthiness of space ships by the big stability keel of Uraga-class pointing to stability problems in high sea states (that she can absolutely avoid by simply taking off).

To be fair, we don't really see Earth much between 2012 and 2040... so we don't know how quickly non-governmental air travel resumed. They had no problems with building fighters and transport aircraft by the hundred, so I have a hard time with the idea that they couldn't build jet airliners... and the planet was not exactly travel-friendly, being mildly radioactive and all kinds of barren. Not your ideal tourist trap.

As far as the ships go... you may be getting a false impression of what that ventral fin is for. It folds flat against the ship's ventral hull when in water, and contains the ship's fold system.

Educational. Not violent. Educational. See the trend?

T-Crush is one of those school sports, y'know... and it's hardly nonviolent.

The legality of T-Crush sport. Not the manga. The sport.

Must be legal, it's played at schools... and if it weren't, they'd hardly be broadcasting it to the entire fleet with the fleet's mayor (Milia) acting as guest color commentator.

Non-canon sources aside, the biggest problem I have with many of the ideas proposed here is that it includes DYRL as part of the original timeline. Am I confused about what DYRL represents in terms of the original series?

A version of DYRL? is considered to be an in-universe historical drama film (produced for propaganda purposes) that came out in 2031. (From the in-universe clips we've seen, this version apparently included Max and Milia's wedding and some other stuff that wasn't in the actual 1984 film.)

DYRL? as we know it is also part of that cloud of vagueness that exists with respect to the "true" version of events in the First Space War. There is no one version of the story identified as the "correct" one. (Which is part of why we keep getting mingled TV and movie aesthetics in sequels.)

For the VF-1's purposes, the official technical materials classify the TV and DYRL? versions of the VF-1 as two different sets of production blocks that coexist in the same timeline. The TV series VF-1 is representative of a VF-1 Valkyrie from Blocks 1-5, while the Movie VF-1 is representative of the VF-1 Valkyrie from Block 6 onwards.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Aries Turner]

there were any or not among the Macross's carrier air wings is unclear, because we've never yet had a full inventory of the ~300+ VF-1s assigned to it throughout the entire war. There weren't any when she launched, but we don't know if she could have picked some up when she returned to Earth and was resupplied.

Macross had an onboard production facility that churned out 1 HWR-00-Mk. II Monster, 40 ADR-04-Mk. X Defender and over 20 SDR-04-Mk. XII Phalanx. Why it didn't built VT-1 or VE-1 is anyone guess, as it was more than capable of building a VEFR-1. Accepted canon may say otherwise, but onscreen canon make it feel counter-intuitive: if the VF-1D derived VEFR-1 was equally flawed, there was every reason to build a VE-1 instead. But didn't. For some reason VEFR-1 schematics were readily available for Macross to build, but VE-1 ones weren't.

To be fair, we don't really see Earth much between 2012 and 2040

To be fair, airliners may not have been present because entire civil airliners manufacturers were destroyed, but also because Earth population was more interested in traveling to any other planet than traveling from desert to desert. High density occupation airliners were surely not that demanded.

As far as the ships go... you may be getting a false impression of what that ventral fin is for. It folds flat against the ship's ventral hull when in water, and contains the ship's fold system.

That I didn't know. Some small recreational boats are seen in Plus, but to be fair, anything I said up there applies also here. Also, there was contact with other species with some seafaring know-how.

T-Crush is one of those school sports, y'know... and it's hardly nonviolent.

OK, I concede... I concede that sometime between 2040 and 2046, violent sport broadcasting was fashionable again. Edited October 4, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

Macross had an onboard production facility that churned out 1 HWR-00-Mk. II Monster, 40 ADR-04-Mk. X Defender and over 20 SDR-04-Mk. XII Phalanx. Why it didn't built VT-1 or VE-1 is anyone guess, as it was more than capable of building a VEFR-1.

Point of order... the additional destroids produced in the Macross's onboard factory were not built from scratch. They were built using the stockpiles of spare parts that were part of the Macross's original consignment, and also the spare parts carried by the Daedalus.

As the VEFR-1 is not seen until after the ship's resupply after returning to Earth and we know she didn't leave port with one originally, it seems likely that the VEFR-1s were either acquired from the Prometheus (a seabound carrier) or were issued to the ship as part of its resupply operation before leaving for space again (the UN Forces presumably not wanting to waste state of the art craft on a ship that was on a suicide mission to distract the enemy.)

Presumably it didn't build any VE-1 or VT-1 units because it didn't have the necessary parts and maintenance of existing combat units would naturally take priority over building new unarmed fighters.

To be fair, airliners may not have been present because entire civil airliners manufacturers were destroyed, but also because Earth population was more interested in traveling to any other planet than traveling from desert to desert.

Debatable, given that several of the real-world equivalents of the "bland name" companies behind the military aircraft in Macross were also giants of the private sector like McDonnell Douglas... they may simply have not seen a ton of use for non-transatmospheric craft considering what a craphole Earth was by that point.

[Aries Turner]

You could have pointed to the presence of at least a spare VF-1D whereas no VT-1 was onboard. There was also a significant portion of atmospheric fighters and helicopters other than the ES-11D.

[Galaxy_Stranger]

So, you're saying that DYRL was filmed years after the events of the original series using the current VF series models, which would include final production trainers and AWACS? I dunno...