Post-Delta Megaroad Thoughts

[sketchley]

5 minutes ago, JB0 said:

I strongly suspect that, as a major celebrity known among essentially every human alive, Minmay was NOT cloned. Having multiple Minmays would risk creeping people out and lead to an anti-cloning backlash in a way that cloning "normal" people wouldn't. 

No one would KNOW if they ran into a clone of Vanessa on the street, a clone of a non-celebrity is just another person as far as almost everyone is concerned. But Minmay-2 is instantly recognizable and starts people actually thinking. "Wait, if there's a Minmay clone that looks and sounds and acts like the real one... what if they cloned me? Is there a doppelganger of me running around pretending he IS me? Am I going to be blamed for the things he did? "

This is where there's a slight conflict with what has been published (Macross Chronicle) about that mass cloning: skilled and/or important key people from the First Interstellar War were cloned and used to crew the ship's in the early Emigrant Fleets.

Therefore, it's very likely that Minmei was cloned.  However (and this is a big one), we do not know if those clones were given the same names.

Macross is as clear as mud when it comes to cloning.  On the one hand, there are strong indications that the memories of the cloned person are implanted as-is into the clone (see the above paraphrasing from Macross Chronicle).  On the other hand, as we don't have any protests or other social upheavals from clones discovering they're not the real person—à la Ah-nold's reaction when discovering he's a clone in The 6th Day—we can presume that the clones know that they are clones.

The one mitigating factor is that the Emigrant Fleets were sent out to the four corners of the galaxy.  So, while there may be "a" Minmei on any given (early) Emigrant Fleet, the chance of them running into each other later in life is quite slim (fun fact: the Macross Frontier fleet took 20 years to get to the center of the galaxy.  It'll take 10 years to get back to Earth.)

It's been implied that the problem with the mass cloning was that there may have been two or more clones of ordinary people in any given early Emigrant Fleet (how else can we explain the sudden rise in genetic disorders in children that brought the mass cloning program to an immediate stop within a mere decade or two?).

So, your point about doppelgangers is true, just not in the way you intended. (^_-)

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

While some in universe characters are obsessed with Minmay, most do not make a fuss about Megaroad-01 disappearance.

By the time the New UN Government declassified the fact of the Megaroad-01's disappearance, Minmay had already been out of the spotlight for so long that it wouldn't have been cause for significant outcry.  It didn't take all that long for the realities of long-distance fold travel to become a part of basic public knowledge.  Losing contact with an emigrant fleet wasn't a unheard-of calamity anymore, it was just a thing that sometimes happens.  

Like with the 117th Research Fleet.  It was written off as destroyed in a fold accident and nobody questioned it because it's one of the risks you take traveling by space fold.

 

26 minutes ago, JB0 said:

I strongly suspect that, as a major celebrity known among essentially every human alive, Minmay was NOT cloned. Having multiple Minmays would risk creeping people out and lead to an anti-cloning backlash in a way that cloning "normal" people wouldn't. 

Zentradi like Richard Bilra wouldn't be hung up on her disappearance if she'd had a clone continuing her career after she left.  

 

Personally, I suspect the Megaroad-01 stuff in Delta is a red herring.  Lady M is just some Richard Garriott-esque crazy CEO who insists on being called "Lady M" the way Garriott likes to style himself "Lord British".

[sketchley]

8 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

While some in universe characters are obsessed with Minmay, most do not make a fuss about Megaroad-01 disappearance.

If you look closely Macross FB2012, there is a certain poetic license where Minmay is looking at herself walking down the street/ leaving in Megaroad-01.

Or is it? We know for certain lots of these early colonization efforts were accomplished via HEAVY CLONING. So, in fact, there may be a Minmay that departed AND one that remained.

The *real* Hikaru, Misa, and Minmei all left on the first Megaroad Emigrant Fleet.

So, the question about that "poetic licence" in FB2012 is: was that a Minmei clone looking up at the departing *real* Minmei?  (and both envying each other's future)  Or was that merely 'poetic licence", as the *Minmei* remaining on Earth knew that she wasn't the *real* Minmei, and there were some sort of societal rules preventing her from resuming the *real* Minmei's musical career (see my previous post regarding that).

[Aries Turner]

18 hours ago, sketchley said:

was that a Minmei clone looking up at the departing *real* Minmei?  (and both envying each other's future)  Or was that merely 'poetic licence", as the *Minmei* remaining on Earth knew that she wasn't the *real* Minmei, and there were some sort of societal rules preventing her from resuming the *real* Minmei's musical career (see my previous post regarding that).

As alarming as it is to see not one, but three or four clones of yourself, and as puzzled with the sheer amount of philosophical questions that would kick-in, we are talking about Macross Universe, not ours. In Macross universe, pragmatism ensued as there was no plan B: all the remaining genetic variance was required in all of the colonization efforts. A portion on each just wouldn't do, so one grew accustomed to the presence of oneself clones, eased by the short amount of time interacting.

While the previous paragraph mostly addresses JB0 worries, it also addresses yours: your question is inconsequential to them. Both are originals, because both are copies of the same. Who is the prior one is just a cosmetic distinction in the end. So one Minmei endured the mantle of being forced to be the idol hero, that while still adolescent had the destiny of all mankind over her fragile pubescent shoulders, just because in a brutal and perversely fated way it also aligned with her own goals before the war. The other Minmei just explored being freed of the burden, even at the cost of her dream, to be able to search for another new dreams, as any other young adult does.

One wonders if Max and Milia had that many childs or all those are genetically their childs but not necesarily brothers and sisters, not even from the same fleet.

Macross 7 Max and Milia are the real ones and act as such, as any other pair aboard some other vessels.

Bilrer may well be obsessed with the Minmei that never turned back her idol mantle. But MAY have failed in his effort so much that MAY have settled with a Minmei that knew of his effort, contacted him, and "while I left all that long ago, I undoubtedly was her once, and I accept in my later years to take the mantle once more for that Mikumo insane project of yours. For the lulz, for trolling Macross World Forums with Delta stridency, for old times shake, and because I never really grew up to adulthood and still am a sixty something spoiled lass."

Edited March 24, 2019 by Aries Turner
Beauty of Grammar Hell.

[Bolt]

20 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Like with the 117th Research Fleet.  It was written off as destroyed in a fold accident and nobody questioned it because it's one of the risks you take traveling by space fold.

Now I need to look this up..

Oh right, I remember now , from Frontier!

 

2 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

Who is the prior one is just a cosmetic distinction in the end.

From a certain perspective.

2 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

Bilrer may well be obsessed with the Minmei that never turned back her idol mantle. But MAY have failed in his effort so much that MAY have settled with a Minmei that knew of his effort, contacted him, and "while I left all that long ago, I undoubtedly was her once, and I accept in my later years to take the mantle once more for that Mikumo insane project of yours. For the lulz, for trolling Macross World Forums with Delta stridency, for old times shake, and because I never really grew up to adulthood and still am a sixty something spoiled lass."

You’re gonna make us all late to the tea party going that far down rabbit hole(*~*)

Edited March 25, 2019 by Bolt

[Master Dex]

While I don't want to be hypocritical about my statement ignoring Bellisario's Maxim from another thread in this forum.. when it comes to the clone talk recently.. I feel like that maybe sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

[Seto Kaiba]

5 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Now I need to look this up.

That is the research fleet Dr. Mao Nome led into Vajra space in the 2040s to study them, with her assistants Grace O'Connor and Ranshe Mei (Ranka's mother).  The fleet was wiped out by the Vajra and its wrecked flagship - SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global - was brought down on Gallia IV.

As the existence of the Vajra was still classified at the time, the New UN Government covered up its loss by swearing the survivors to secrecy and putting out a cover story that the fleet had been destroyed in a fold accident.  Based on Alto's matter of fact recitation of the cover story and what Macross Chronicle said about the hazards of space fold travel, this was a plausible cover story in part because this kind of loss is a rare but not unheard of phenomenon.

 

5 minutes ago, Bolt said:

You’re gonna make us all late to the tea party going that far down rabbit hole(*~*)

I'm late! I'm late! For a very important date! No time to say hello, goodbye! I'm late! I'm late! I'm late!

 

8 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

While I don't want to be hypocritical about my statement ignoring Bellisario's Maxim from another thread in this forum.. when it comes to the clone talk recently.. I feel like that maybe sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

If we go any further down that rabbit hole we'd better see if we can trade that cigar in on a blunt...

[Bolt]

Lololol..!

[slide]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If we go any further down that rabbit hole we'd better see if we can trade that cigar in on a blunt...

Just dig your rabbit-hole to make a pit-stop in Canada...

Shoulda taken that Left at Albuquerque....................

 

 

23 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Personally, I suspect the Megaroad-01 stuff in Delta is a red herring.  Lady M is just some Richard Garriott-esque crazy CEO who insists on being called "Lady M" the way Garriott likes to style himself "Lord British".

That would be more than mildly disappointing if it all came to naught...

Edited March 25, 2019 by slide

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, slide said:

That would be more than mildly disappointing if it all came to naught...

It almost certainly will.

Even Mari Iijima has publicly commented that she's pretty sure Kawamori has no interest in bringing back any of the original trio, and Kawamori himself has been adamantly maintaining that the story of Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay ended with Flash Back 2012 for decades.

The most likely outcome is that Lady M will either turn out to be a "remember the new guy" character who was alive during the First Space War¹ or will be an alias used by something other than a single person².  There's no existing character who could be Lady M, a wealthy industrialist who's been researching the power of music since the First Space War ended.

 

1. As was the case of most of the senior and flag officers in Macross Plus, Macross 7, etc., as well as Richard Bilra in Macross Frontier, Naresuan in Macross the Ride, and Timothy Daldhanton in Macross VF-X2.
2. Like an artificial intelligence, a committee, or an inherited title passed down from one person to another.

[Aries Turner]

22 hours ago, Bolt said:

You’re gonna make us all late to the tea party going that far down rabbit hole(*~*)

Oh, yeah!

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

2. Like an artificial intelligence, a committee, or an inherited title passed down from one person to another.

That last one, I like.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Aries Turner

[ephoph]

id like a series focusing on megaroad-1 that gets back to true space opera, where the music is not the main thrust of the story.  could flip it and have unspacy forces encounter a life form about 1/6 size of human and they use mecha that is human size and can combine with others to be valkryie size. 

[slide]

48 minutes ago, ephoph said:

id like a series focusing on megaroad-1 that gets back to true space opera, where the music is not the main thrust of the story.  could flip it and have unspacy forces encounter a life form about 1/6 size of human and they use mecha that is human size and can combine with others to be valkryie size. 

the Irony is real!

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, ephoph said:

id like a series focusing on megaroad-1 that gets back to true space opera, where the music is not the main thrust of the story.  could flip it and have unspacy forces encounter a life form about 1/6 size of human and they use mecha that is human size and can combine with others to be valkryie size. 

Super Sentai and Power Rangers have both done space operas already though (both to good success even)... it's best to let Macross do what it's best at: love stories in space with plot relevant and emotionally fitting music... and transforming space planes.

[Bolt]

3 hours ago, ephoph said:

id like a series focusing on megaroad-1 that gets back to true space opera, where the music is not the main thrust of the story.  could flip it and have unspacy forces encounter a life form about 1/6 size of human and they use mecha that is human size and can combine with others to be valkryie size. 

Somehow,  I really like this..

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, ephoph said:

id like a series focusing on megaroad-1 that gets back to true space opera, where the music is not the main thrust of the story.  could flip it and have unspacy forces encounter a life form about 1/6 size of human and they use mecha that is human size and can combine with others to be valkryie size. 

... you seem to be operating under a severe misconception about what Macross is.  Macross is, and always has been, a romance story driven by music set against a backdrop of space warfare.  The space warfare stuff is B-plot, not the focus of the story.

Also, no offense, but that sounds absolutely awful.

[Bolt]

Ouch.  

Ok, Ok , your right . Music and romance (triangle) IS a major part of Macross.

[no3Ljm]

5 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Ouch.  

Ok, Ok , your right . Music and romance (triangle) IS a major part of Macross.

Wait. After all this time, you didn't know?

 

[JB0]

On 4/9/2019 at 10:59 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

... you seem to be operating under a severe misconception about what Macross is.  Macross is, and always has been, a romance story driven by music set against a backdrop of space warfare.  The space warfare stuff is B-plot, not the focus of the story.

For the franchise as a whole, your statement is perhaps accurate*. But "always has been" is untrue.

If I had to declare the original show to be ONE thing, I'd call it a coming-of-age story rather than a romance or war story. It is mostly about Hikaru's transition from boy to man. Even the romance reflects that, as his interest gradually shifts from the fun and childish female to the mature and stable one.

 

But I'd actually call the music in SDF a detail rather than a driving force. It is of little consequence that Minmay's primary talent is singing, just that she becomes famous. The space war, by contrast, directly informs large portions of story and character progression.

If Minmay were an actress or a fashion model, SDF Macross would not be changed significantly. If there was no space war, it would be fundamentally and profoundly different.

 

*And that focus shifted very rapidly. DYRL begins with a mature and confident Hikaru, and wildly elevates the importance of music. Much of what follows owes more to the movie than to the original TV series.

Edited April 12, 2019 by JB0
One tortured and suffering sentence rephrased mildly.

[slide]

On 4/10/2019 at 3:32 AM, JB0 said:

For the franchise as a whole, your statement is perhaps accurate*. But "always has been" is untrue.

Kowamori-san has made multiple statements about the "triangle of Macross" being: Music, Mecha, and a 3-way love story, each being as important as the other.

[Bolt]

Another reason we will never see Mega Road-01 again. That triangle got played out.

[AN/ALQ128]

56 minutes ago, slide said:

Kowamori-san has made multiple statements about the "triangle of Macross" being: Music, Mecha, and a 3-way love story, each being as important as the other.

I also remember reading an interview where Kawamori said he tried to do a Macross with some of those elements removed, but the producers insisted on keeping them in.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 minutes ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

I also remember reading an interview where Kawamori said he tried to do a Macross with some of those elements removed, but the producers insisted on keeping them in.

Wasn't that Delta?  He'd originally wanted to remove music and do a thing about competing flight demonstration teams.

[Bolt]

A combination of M+ & M the ride?

[AN/ALQ128]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Wasn't that Delta?  He'd originally wanted to remove music and do a thing about competing flight demonstration teams.

I actually found the interview I was thinking about, lost in my maze of bookmarks.

https://karice.wordpress.com/2016/08/14/p518/#more-11821

"However, when it comes to a new Macross series, the first thing we have to decide upon is how to resolve the major conflict through music. Each time, I ask the producers if we can leave out the element of singing (chuckles). But the answer is always “No way!” (chuckles). I also ask if I can drop the triangle, and similarly, I get a “Nope, can’t do that either!” (chuckles)."

"Honestly, if I could only drop one of them, everything would be so much easier. But with regards to Macross F, the order I received was to “Make it like the original.”

 

[Bolt]

I like the picture of him demonstrating transformation with his Valkyrie made from LEGO.

[Bolt]

An interesting topic in that interview...

And that networked organism known as the Vajra-there seems to be a theory that it’s like the Bird Human that was in Macross Zero?

Kawamori: “To be accurate, they’re different. The Bird Human was actually designed on the basis of the Vajra—probably a result of the Protoculture studying the latter. They may not have been an indigenous people, but they are an indigenous organism. That the Protoculture were able to travel through space in the first place was probably due to the Vajra.”

And so, much of the protoculture technology was borrowed from the Vajra..?

[Master Dex]

This has been stated for a while since the Frontier TV series ended the Protoculture were heavily inspired by the Vajra (they kinda said as much I the last episode). It's good he still elaborates a bit but I kinda always saw that as pretty clear. 

[Bolt]

Right. But I should be more specific.

How much technology was borrowed from the Vajra, by the protoculture?

Granted the protoculture were their own race and culture( I doubt they borrowed the power of song concept from the Vajra, but maybe..). However..

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, Bolt said:

An interesting topic in that interview...

And that networked organism known as the Vajra-there seems to be a theory that it’s like the Bird Human that was in Macross Zero?

It's not really a theory if it's stated as a fact.

That the Protoculture based some of their tech, particularly military hardware, on Vajra biology was more or less confirmed back when the Vajra concept art was published and several of the designs were just Regults with insect features.

It wasn't even much of a surprise when Macross Frontier revealed the Protoculture studied the Vajra intently.  It'd been a popular theory among fan since Dynamite 7 that the Protoculture had probably discovered the existence of higher dimension space and applications of it like gravity control, fold navigation, heavy quantum beam weaponry, etc. by studying naturally-occurring super dimension lifeforms like the galactic whales.  The Vajra were just another, less passive, flavor of that.  We humans model a lot of our technology on the natural world, so it makes perfect sense the Protoculture would too... especially if their natural world had stuff like fold-capable sapient space-plants the size of city blocks or gigantic hive mind space bugs that fly by gravity control, network their minds across light years, and can teleport interstellar distances.

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

8 minutes ago, Bolt said:

How much technology was borrowed from the Vajra, by the protoculture?

It's a fairly safe bet that most of the familiar forms of overtechnology were derived from study of the Vajra and other natural super dimension lifeforms... energy converting armor, dimensional beam weapons, gravity control, fold navigation and communication, and so on.

[CosmoZero]

On 3/23/2019 at 8:57 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Personally, I suspect the Megaroad-01 stuff in Delta is a red herring.  Lady M is just some Richard Garriott-esque crazy CEO who insists on being called "Lady M" the way Garriott likes to style himself "Lord British".

Spoiler

And yet, here we are….

[Bolt]

Quite damaged, she is. 

[Seto Kaiba]

Spoiler tag your spoilers, the movie just became available to most fans outside Japan.

22 minutes ago, CosmoZero said:

And yet, here we are….

Boy did I ever underestimate what a bunch of hacks were working on Delta...

Quite a lot of fans seem to be rather upset by the whole thing too, both because it's a cheap and meaningless attempt to garner some interest from older fans that has no real impact on the plot and because it's a tediously mundane answer to the setting's most enduring mystery.

[jvmacross]

1 hour ago, CosmoZero said:

  Reveal hidden contents

And yet, here we are….

 

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Quite damaged, she is. 

I'd be way more interested in the story of the Megaroad...but they would probably screw that up too