Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 22 - READ 1st POST

[David Hingtgen]

'cuz now he has Freya *AND* Mirage, not just Freya. (at least, that's what I thought they were blatantly implying)

[UN Spacy]

There ARE Destroids onboard the Hemera.

...and man gg's subs really are bad.

[RedWolf]

You know its funny that Windermereans use birds and feathers as iconography while Voldorians use cats. This episode shows while Windermereans have greater physical strength and senses but the Voldorians are still predators who are on top of their planet's food chain.

[hulagu]

'cuz now he has Freya *AND* Mirage, not just Freya. (at least, that's what I thought they were blatantly implying)

Yeah, seems like this is his "You are both my wings" moment.

[kalvasflam]

'cuz now he has Freya *AND* Mirage, not just Freya. (at least, that's what I thought they were blatantly implying)

Threesome.....

[Product9]

So, is no one gonna comment on how Walkure's costumes apparently consist of rockets and goo?

I mean, it just explains... so very little.

[azrael]

So, is no one gonna comment on how Walkure's costumes apparently consist of rockets and goo?

I mean, it just explains... so very little.

Watch the Blu-ray vol. 1 specials. The answer is there. It's not magic.

[eko.prasetiyo]

You know its funny that Windermereans use birds and feathers as iconography while Voldorians use cats. This episode shows while Windermereans have greater physical strength and senses but the Voldorians are still predators who are on top of their planet's food chain.

aahhh you mean cat eats bird right??

[ayaxr]

Wow.

They keep raising the bar in poor writing and rehashed animations from PAST SERIES.... so saddening to see this. And now knowing that this was originally supposed to end at episode 13 with a followup movie, it provides a logical answer for the train-wreck we're seeing, though it is not excusable by any means.

If you expand a series to double the length does that not mean you get more budget? more staff? more of whatever is needed? I mean if in theory its a big enough cash cow to provide a case for a second cour, then that means you can devote the resources necessary.... The only thing you can never work around is time or lack thereof. But what we're seeing here doesn't feel just "rushed" in addition to that its pretty bad overall on all fronts, the scripting is made in such a way as to use as little resources as possible seems like? Did they dump all the money into just the idols and their songs knowing that would be a key marketable product?

So onto this episode in particular.... After spending the better part of 3 episodes or so having the MC Hayate have this huge issue of going berserk from Freyja's singing, the fallout of that, now we get the "fk it just go into battle again" and all of a sudden its like "Hey guys, its OK.. It wont happen again, you girls are awesome, I'm cured cause I say so.. YEAHH!"

I was thinking we we're finally gonna see the 2nd space battle (yeah only 1 in the whole series, only one instance of the super packs) but no.... We're left to assume they just skate on by the battle of rehashed Frontier animations right into the planet. Funny how a whole star system is under war, yet we only see 6/8 mechs fighting it out among each other time after time. *yawn*

In the end I guess the series succeeded from their point of view as a commercial success and maybe thats all they care for at this point? I will certainly not be picking up the BDs. But I have already dished out healthy sums for model kits from Delta most likely DXs too, and I'll enjoy those for the mechanical aspect purely but they wont really have that feel or connection to the series I get from some of my other models.

I'll end my rant here, sorry if I'm being overly critical.. I've posted similar thoughts over at reddit on previous episodes and got completely flamed for thrashing this "wonderful" anime.. But to be honest Macross is close to the chest for me, as I'm sure it is to all of you here, and its just a bit unsettling to see it unWIND so negatively

May your winds blow true... yeah.. no.

Edited August 30, 2016 by ayaxr

[cwmodels]

'cuz now he has Freya *AND* Mirage, not just Freya. (at least, that's what I thought they were blatantly implying)

Still don't explain anything in a logical sense!

I'll end my rant here, sorry if I'm being overly critical..

No you are not. The show has taken a nose dive after episode 13 and it makes me think how untalented Kawamori and his staff at Satelite turned out to be. Rehashing old visuals, concepts, anime trope and dialogues. Kawamori claims he's always trying to do something different and new with each new Macross series but this show has proven otherwise.

Here is why I have a lot of problem with the events occurring (aka writing) in episodes 19 to 22

•Hayate unconscious after the crash but wakes up on his own by the end of the episode.

•We found out Mikumo is unconscious and submerged in a tank. The Walkurie girls go search for her but got caught and the put into jail, but then Mikumo shows up and they are freed without conflict or obstacle.

•Hyatt & Freyja are pulled out of fighting status but then gets put back into action without any conflict or obstacle.

•Freyja & Mirage concerned for Hayate going var. Hyatt goes Var. Hyatt then regains control with their love (?) Problem solved within 1 episode!

•Freja & Kagame gets sucked outta shuttle but gets rescued immediately. So what point does that serve?

The setup, action, and consequence don't really put any of the characters in any peril or danger OR create drama, pitting them at odds or conflict. A scene/situation starts with some signs of trouble but always quickly gets resolved on it own.

*It's not like while Hataye is unconscious, and later on the fear of him going Var puts the Delta them into a tight spot without their most talented pilot against the White Knight.

*Windermere making a strike with Heniz's song while the Walkurie girls are in jail with Mikumo in a tank and Freyja doubt her singing.

*Hataye going Var and actually killing Cassim would make it feel truly outta control and dangerous and give a sense of ned and desperation to bring him back.

*Freja and Kagame separated from the group and their fighting strength is scattered across Windermere.

The plot is not moved by characters' actions, reactions, and consequences. THINGS JUST HAPPENS.

Edited August 30, 2016 by cwmodels

[Nazareno2012]

Still don't explain anything in a logical sense!

No you are not. The show has taken a nose dive after episode 13 and it makes me think how untalented Kawamori and his staff at Satelite turned out to be. Rehashing old visuals, concepts, anime trope and dialogues. Kawamori claims he's always trying to do something different and new with each new Macross series but this show has proven otherwise.

Here is why I have a lot of problem with the events occurring (aka writing) in episodes 19 to 22

•Hayate unconscious after the crash but wakes up on his own by the end of the episode.

•We found out Mikumo is unconscious and submerged in a tank. The Walkurie girls go search for her but got caught and the put into jail, but then Mikumo shows up and they are freed without conflict or obstacle.

•Hyatt & Freyja are pulled out of fighting status but then gets put back into action without any conflict or obstacle.

•Freyja & Mirage concerned for Hayate going var. Hyatt goes Var. Hyatt then regains control with their love (?) Problem solved within 1 episode!

•Freja & Kagame gets sucked outta shuttle but gets rescued immediately. So what point does that serve?

The setup, action, and consequence don't really put any of the characters in any peril or danger OR create drama, pitting them at odds or conflict. A scene/situation starts with some signs of trouble but always quickly gets resolved on it own.

*It's not like while Hataye is unconscious, and later on the fear of him going Var puts the Delta them into a tight spot without their most talented pilot against the White Knight.

*Windermere making a strike with Heniz's song while the Walkurie girls are in jail with Mikumo in a tank and Freyja doubt her singing.

*Hataye going Var and actually killing Cassim would make it feel truly outta control and dangerous and give a sense of ned and desperation to bring him back.

*Freja and Kagame separated from the group and their fighting strength is scattered across Windermere.

The plot is not moved by characters' actions, reactions, and consequences. THINGS JUST HAPPENS.

As I see it, the reason why it took a nose dive after episode 13 is that it is originally supposed to be only 13 episodes long, then they decided to make it 26 episodes. The change means that the crew have to rush production of the additional episodes, to the detriment of the episodes' quality.

[cwmodels]

As I see it, the reason why it took a nose dive after episode 13 is that it is originally supposed to be only 13 episodes long, then they decided to make it 26 episodes. The change means that the crew have to rush production of the additional episodes, to the detriment of the episodes' quality.

But you don't throw the basic rules of writing outta the window even if you have to start rushing things. Motivations, setups, actions, reactions and consequences should still be there. It's as if the show is now written by a guy who's never had a basic writing lesson before. And so far it's a mess that has never surfaced to such a degree before in a Macross series.

[Seto Kaiba]

My favorite battle scene is when Keith yelled

"Scissor me timbers!"

It's a shame the Aerial Knights have no female members, then it could lead to "two girls scissoring".

'cuz now he has Freya *AND* Mirage, not just Freya. (at least, that's what I thought they were blatantly implying)

Ah, his One True Threesome.

So, is no one gonna comment on how Walkure's costumes apparently consist of rockets and goo?

I mean, it just explains... so very little.

Don't forget holograms!

Maybe the original plan was to cure Var syndrome through nuru massage?

Seriously though, the explanation in the Blu-Ray special features is stupid too... there's really no reason for the body suits to be completely transparent or for the holographic projector harness to be underwear. It's fanservice and nothing else... one more serious flaw in an overwhelming litany of flaws that plague this series.

But you don't throw the basic rules of writing outta the window even if you have to start rushing things.

Well, strictly speaking... you don't have to, but you absolutely can.

Motivations, setups, actions, reactions and consequences should still be there. It's as if the show is now written by a guy who's never had a basic writing lesson before. And so far it's a mess that has never surfaced to such a degree before in a Macross series.

Honestly, what it feels like is fan fiction. BAD fan fiction. The kind of bad fan-fiction you normally have to go to the eight letter R word for.

Macross Delta had some pretty glaring problems even before the second half went to hell. A bunch of its cast are blatant expys of the more popular characters in Frontier, and the cast is so huge that characterization got spread awfully thin and left almost the entire cast a collection of flat characters, and many of them aren't really relevant to the plot at all. They expect us to care about all these flat, largely useless characters like Theo, Xao, Qasim, Makina, Reina, Kaname, Messer, etc. Several of them, like Makina, Reina, and the twins, are obviously only in the show to throw the h-dojinshi circles a bone and could be deleted from the series without consequence.

The first half of the series is better, but if you go back and rewatch it you quickly notice that the characters are present... but don't seem to be at all involved in the story until the last two episodes. Stuff is happening around them, but all they can do is react to it with dull surprise until the attack on Ragna. Nothing they do has any real effect on Windermere's advance and the Aerial Knights. In short, they're not really participating. Literally everything they do either achieves no result or helps Windermere, and for the majority of the series they don't seem to even care. They actually attempt to stop the NUNS from taking a proactive stance to oppose Windermere, which is full-on "Whose side are you on, anyway?". They do such a sh*t-awful job that it's impossible to take them seriously as an elite mercenary outfit hired to protect the Brisingr Cluster when they achieve nothing, practically hand the cluster to Windermere with a bow on it, and their leader's only character trait besides being XBOX HUGE is that he's renowed for being really phenomenally bad at his job. Lady M is no better, since she seems to be holding an idiot ball up until Windermere seizes Ragna, and then quietly vanishes into the background.

For the first time in Macross history, they've managed to take a great set of mechanical designs, great music, a handful of engaging characters, and an enormous and well-developed setting and produce a whole that is somehow significantly less than the sum of its parts.

Macross II and Macross 7 used to be the fandom whipping boys for being unimaginative in story or mediocre in animation and design... but now we have Macross Delta, a show we can point to and definitively say "This is how you do a Macross series wrong."

[Roy Focker]

I'm still waiting for Keith to say,

"For you are the wind beneath my wings." To Roid.

[ayaxr]

•Freja & Kagame gets sucked outta shuttle but gets rescued immediately. So what point does that serve?

OMG such a cringe moment as well for me. I was cautiously optimistic thinking "Ok so now these guys need to nosedive like crazy or do something "so typical" of Macross in attempts to save a falling damsels to add a real sense of danger and stakes".... and you know what I'm totally OK with that... but guess what... nothing.. it was just a simple pickup by the guys, I mean....come on..at least try to fake to me that there's danger even though I know they will get saved.

Edited August 30, 2016 by ayaxr

[Ghostbear0]

Oh there was danger you know the enemy fighters they ignored to save the girls from having to use the rocket panties they use to jump from the same shuttle every concert 😅

[ayaxr]

Oh there was danger you know the enemy fighters they ignored to save the girls from having to use the rocket panties they use to jump from the same shuttle every concert

You know I thought about that, it would have been "easy" from a writing perspective. To say, ok they have rocket panties, but they only last so long and they were ejected from a too high altitude so they wont be able to make it on their own.. something like that.. At least you play into the script the technology you've previously shown but include the limits and how the team has to deal with it.

I mean is this crazy to think? To me it sounds like something completely plausible and actually worth more than what we saw.

Edited August 30, 2016 by ayaxr

[Aries Turner]

I see how this wind blows.

It is not only that the series is stretched from 13 episodes. It is that whatever was to be told to us before the movie, was actually told already by episode 13. That means that if the movie is already done, or the writing is fixed, the movie is not going to unwind differently. So all the episodes from #14 to series ending would not advance the story forward in any way. Cassim dying means he hadn't any meaningful role in the movie, so it doesn't matter if erasing his character entirely. Lady M would never appear. Mikumo origins will remain as mysterious as ever. Berger would tell us about what we already know o would know with some effort. The Sigur Valens would tell Roid (and us) exactly nothing solid or even graspable. It is like a 13 episodes long fade to black.

So enjoy the (bits of) action and wait for the movie.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Product9]

Cashew was never an important character. He wasn't even shown in the Mission 01 battle, only appearing in Mission 02 standing with the other knights. Honestly, I was really hoping he would die in this episode - not because I thought it would be dramatic or important to the story, but rather because I really wanted to use that joke that's been rolling around in my head for the last several weeks (see page one of this thread). Because I was thinking about that as the episode wrapped up, I actually didn't even pay that close attention to what was going on. The mecha action, while cool and all, sort of slipped past me because I was thinking about my joke. After it ended, I realized for the first time while watching a Macross show (and a new one at that) that I just didn't really care that much what was going on.

To be honest, though, I never had high hopes for Delta. Not since the first teaser released had animation reused from Sayonara no Tsubasa (my eyes are drawn to recycled animation like magnets). Frontier was already borderline bad because of weak writing and a lot of reused animation, and the movies weren't much better. Delta is unfortunately just the logical next step of the decline in quality we've had in Macross for a long time.

I always try to look at the positives, and really try to avoid being negative. But, even I've run out of excitement for this one. Hopefully the last few episodes will have some good GIF material. I don't care how the story ends, because it never really began...

Anyway, about the gas jet clusters - they probably used them up getting into the (magically hovering?) shuttle. I shouldn't have to conjecture that, though.

And the real reason I say the goo doesn't explain much is because a) it doesn't explain how their hair and head accouterments work, and b) I'm still not clear on how Sheryl went from being in prison to having a holographic costume in Sayonara no Tsubasa. If it was the stage, then why does she have a skintight costume in the TV series?

I know it's too much to ask them to think things through before they put them in the TV show, but can they please think things through before they put them in the TV show??

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm still waiting for Keith to say,

"For you are the wind beneath my wings." To Roid.

I'm crushed they didn't reenact that one scene from Titanic out on the bow of the Sigur Valens.

So enjoy the (bits of) action and wait for the movie.

That's assuming the movie is still a thing... and, honestly, with as many problems as the TV series has had I don't have any confidence in the staff polishing this turd for the cinema.

[squaresphere]

I put in a neutral vote for the poor writing to balance the decent (not great) action

Chaos is TERRIBLE at their job there's nothing else to say. Ernest says they'll use the ruins to do a surgical strike on Windemere. Ok sounds like a decent plan, let get a fleet together and... wtf are they doing... are they serious only sending 4 VFs and some singers as a tactical strike for on the ENEMY'S HOMEWORLD!?!?

Ernest did you forget you can detach a whole CARRIER from the Macross? Why not send that along with Delta/Walkure??? It's not like the Elysion needed the extra firepower to cover for the Cat Attack.

Even if one would argue, "they need to send a small strike team to stealth..." NO, STOP. They're using a frakking fold gate created on an enemy held planet produced by the biggest glowing thing on the planet. THIS WAS NOT A STEALTH OP!"

Man I swear if SMS was part of the series the "war" wouldn't have gotten past a week.

[Tochiro]

Our discussion of this weeks ep is up! :-)

http://www.macrossworld.com/speakerpodcast-ep-65-macrossΔ-ep-22-spoilercast/

[DJ_Convoy]

So, if they had just yelled at Messer and mebbe hugged him thru his Valk (!), he would have been fine?

Huh.

[ayaxr]

So, if they had just yelled at Messer and mebbe hugged him thru his Valk (!), he would have been fine?

Huh.

Haha, Hindsight's a beotch.

[Product9]

Man I swear if SMS was part of the series the "war" wouldn't have gotten past a week.

Maybe if the war took place in the summer. Unfortunately, it happened when school was in session, and since so many SMS pilots are high school students they couldn't take the time to participate.

I'm crushed they didn't reenact that one scene from Titanic out on the bow of the Sigur Valens.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Product9

[Sandman]

A lot of people are citing the problem with Delta being extended from 13 eps as being the reason to why it's been bad. Personally i can't see how this series could've been done in 13 eps and a movie. There's no way they could have serviced 3 sets of characters and dealt with the mysteries/questions. This is why it is so baffling how slow they have taken the 2nd half with not much happening.

So, if they had just yelled at Messer and mebbe hugged him thru his Valk (!), he would have been fine?

Huh.

No one loved Messer enough to try. There lies that tragedy.

[Zinjo]

I find it amusing that so many are complaining about animation quality and recycled CG animations. When making these complaints against a currently running TV anime, it is like a duel with spoons-pointless! If these issues translated into the DVD / BD releases then they'd be valid, but not yet.

In a budgeted TV series on a short production schedule this is going to happen.

I can see Satellite going to BW and saying:

Satellite:"We need a 1.5 million to produce this 25 episode run."

BW: "You have 1 million"

Satellite: "But Frontier had 1.2 million and a longer production schedule"

BW: "You have 1 million and the schedule stays the same"

Satellite: " We need 1.5 million and more time"

BW: " You have 1 Million, make it work, discussion ended..."

So Satellite, rushes through some less important 2D animation and recycles Frontier sequences with new model textures and camera angles. Save money, stay on schedule, all the while appeasing the sponsors with high quality animated music videos for the idol group. Welcome to broadcast anime...

Little wonder why SK seemed to prefer OVA and movies. More control with better production quality.

Notice the music side of this show is doing very well? Definitely the successor to M7.

The writing is another matter entirely!

Edited August 30, 2016 by Zinjo

[squaresphere]

No one loved Messer enough to try. There lies that tragedy.

DAMN, that was a savage burn

[Zinjo]

I see how this wind blows.

It is not only that the series is stretched from 13 episodes. It is that whatever was to be told to us before the movie, was actually told already by episode 13. That means that if the movie is already done, or the writing is fixed, the movie is not going to unwind differently. So all the episodes from #14 to series ending would not advance the story forward in any way. Cassim dying means he hadn't any meaningful role in the movie, so it doesn't matter if erasing his character entirely. Lady M would never appear. Mikumo origins will remain as mysterious as ever. Berger would tell us about what we already know o would know with some effort. The Sigur Valens would tell Roid (and us) exactly nothing solid or even graspable. It is like a 13 episodes long fade to black.

So enjoy the (bits of) action and wait for the movie.

IF this show gets a movie, I expect it may follow the same route as M7, where the movie only takes the same hero characters and puts them in a different situation like Dynamite. The alternative is a tighter, less bloated version of the story ala DYRL.

We'll see if the show merits any movie treatment.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Zinjo

[Product9]

I find it amusing that so many are complaining about animation quality and recycled CG animations. When making these complaints against a currently running TV anime, it is like a duel with spoons-pointless! If these issues translated into the DVD / BD releases then they'd be valid, but not yet.

Well, the thing is...

Even the Frontier movies reused a ton of animation from the TV series. If a theatrical release movie can't even get all new animation, then I don't know what can. Honestly, I think the passion just isn't there.

[Chronocidal]

Yeeeeah... really no coherence to how anything is happening at this point.

I mean, I would have assumed the absolute best case for the Hayate var thing is we wind up with him hulking out every time Freyja sings, with Mirage playing the Black Widow part to calm him down at the end, but this is like "Suddenly, by the power of magical mental threesomes, I now have the power to completely ignore that serious plot complication!" As if he has ever had any sort of control of it in the first place...

This one even went one worse, since suddenly, instead of just becoming superhuman, he went completely bonkers for no discernible reason. What happened?

Not to mention the whole "Oh.. how'd we get out of prison?" bit. The writers seem to have developed an uncontrollable fetish for leaving serious issues completely unresolved with no explanation. Are they just repeatedly writing themselves into corners they can't get out of, or are they so desperate for padding to fill in the plot with that they're just throwing plot threads at the wall like spaghetti and hoping something sticks?

Honestly, know what I'm hoping for at this point? I want to see someone pick this up and make an abridged series out of it. Not as a parody, but as an actual re-write to give it some coherence. Just take the base plot, and rearrange the visuals and dialogue to make a smaller picture without so many missing pieces.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Chronocidal

[Product9]

Can anyone explain to me why Hayate doesn't just take off the fold quartz pendant? That was what was allowing him to resonate with Freyja, right?

Alto put on the earring to tap into the fold song. Hayate could take off the pendant to tap out.

Right?

Edited August 30, 2016 by Product9

[Zinjo]

Well, the thing is...

Even the Frontier movies reused a ton of animation from the TV series. If a theatrical release movie can't even get all new animation, then I don't know what can. Honestly, I think the passion just isn't there.

More like the money isn't there.

If you can get away with recycling cg sequences (which is easy since that money has already been spent) and dress them up with new skins, or new camera angels then why not? Why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to?

Edited August 30, 2016 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Can anyone explain to me why Hayate doesn't just take off the fold quartz pendant? That was what was allowing him to resonate with Freyja, right?

Alto put on the earring to tap into the fold song. Hayate could take off the pendant to tap out.

Right?

Yes, but then he can't be superman anymore either. A damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Though I am beginning to believe Kawamori either doesn't like or doesn't do well with singing as the primary weapon in a Macross story. As a supplementary tactical advantage, it works. SDFM, DYRL, MF, even M Zero (to an extent). M7 and MD are heavily reliant on the stuff and it comes across as rather hollow to me. In MD it seems to be portrayed as more of a salve, a power up and a key to unlocking PC tech.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Zinjo

[Product9]

More like the money isn't there.

If you can get away with recycling cg sequences (which is easy since that money has already been spent) and dress them up with new skins, or new camera angels then why not? Why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to?

The best answer I can think up is "it shows that you care." If they're just going to reuse the same stuff over and over, they might as well just record the battle scenes using the latest Macross flavored video game and call it good. Heck, they can produce the whole anime that way. Why even have voice actors when text bubbles will get the same story across?

I'm calling it now - the next Macross show is going to have a "www.Bandicam.com" watermark on top of the screen.

Though, I'm a little confused as to why they don't at least change the camera angles to make the animation at least seem kind of new. Isn't one of the benefits of CG that you can move the camera and lights around really easily without actually having to create any new content? Admittedly I'm far from professional level at computer graphics, so there is probably some trick they're using like prebaked lighting or something that I don't know about. But given the models are different (such as the Draken chasing the -31 in PV1 being a reversed shot of Brera's VF-27 chasing the YF-29) wouldn't they have to rerender everything anyway? Might as well tweak the paths or change the camera angle to give it a fresh feel.