Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 22 - READ 1st POST

[Product9]

I know you're happy we got to see some transforming in battle

Yeah, that was neat. Did you guys know these airplanes could transform into robits?

Seriously though, yes I am.

[This Confuses Gamlin]

When you say forearm mounted cannon, I assume you're talking about the triple missile launcher?

I would've guessed that the gun shots came from the chin mount beneath the primary cockpit. I figured there are three weapons on the Konig right? the four main cannons, the two arms with triple shot missiles, and then the chin mounted self defense guns.

The animation did look funny since the shots seem to originate from the arm.

Per the Mecha Manual, there's also:

2 x High-Speed Anti-Air Anti-Ground Close-Range Small High-Maneuverability Missile Launchers, to fire arm unit missiles in Shuttle mode (mounted in mid outer arms in Destroid/GERWALK modes, mounted in rear dorsal section in Shuttle/Bomber mode)

I guess that could look like a gun, but the shots coming from the VB's arm looked exactly like a gun and not like any sort of missiles, certainly not like what it was firing in Frontier.

Edited August 29, 2016 by This Confuses Gamlin

[505thAirborne]

While the constant comparisons of Frontier vs. Delta are annoying at times, I'll say this, both Koenig scenes look way too familiar. Many different angles to film the monster from and yet it looks like all they did was copy the Frontier footage.

Edited August 29, 2016 by 505thAirborne

[Ghostbear0]

When you say forearm mounted cannon, I assume you're talking about the triple missile launcher?

I would've guessed that the gun shots came from the chin mount beneath the primary cockpit. I figured there are three weapons on the Konig right? the four main cannons, the two arms with triple shot missiles, and then the chin mounted self defense guns.

The animation did look funny since the shots seem to originate from the arm.

As for the infiltration thing, you know what they say, if you don't succeed at first, keep trying... but I think it's seriously a time for a Fre-fre flashback episode next week, I mean come on, Freyja is back on Windermere, she needs to hide out some place. Back to ye old village and find your fiancee. That should kill an episode or two that way. Or at least one episode.

This opens up one big question though, Now that we see the fold thing going, I'm pretty sure it isn't Heinz generating the fold, so is it the SV that's doing it or somehow the protoculture ruins are doing it on command? This also makes me wonder if the Windermeres can open the gate on other planets for ships and so forth to retreat. It would seem logical, but I wonder how they're getting comms through so that the guys on the other planet can say, hey we need a fold gate out.

This does at least answer the question of how the NUNS fleet a few episode back was wiped out by the AKs so fast. They literally folded from the planet. Oddly enough, I thought that was supposed to be dangerous, folding from a planet that is.

Dear God I hope your episode 23 theory is wrong.

[Seto Kaiba]

When you say forearm mounted cannon, I assume you're talking about the triple missile launcher?

Nope!

It's frustrating, but in Macross Frontier the SMS VB-6 Konig Monster had some kind of machine gun mounted in each arm. Canaria is shown using them several times, most notably in the series finale, where there's a closeup of her Konig Monster in Battroid mode (IIRC that was the only time it was shown in that mode) firing some manner of machine gun (be it laser, beam, or solid shell, we know not). No forearm-mounted gun is documented in the stats for it but it's clearly shown on more than one occasion.

(Not to be confused with the movie trailer-only version that showed a pair of colossal rotary cannons mounted to the inside of the arms, clearly copied from the Cheyenne CG model.)

[azrael]

Folks, keep in mind that SMS installed updates to their VB-6 that are not on the official specs. I'm sure most NUNS groups throughout the galaxy have made modifications to their own VB-6s which are not listed in the official specs.

[Seto Kaiba]

Folks, keep in mind that SMS installed updates to their VB-6 that are not on the official specs. I'm sure most NUNS groups throughout the galaxy have made modifications to their own VB-6s which are not listed in the official specs.

They're not mentioned in the stats (Macross Chronicle sheets) for the SMS version either,

[kalvasflam]

Dear God I hope your episode 23 theory is wrong.

I hope I'm wrong too, but I'm really concerned with what went through the gate that I'll be right. There is no way for there to be a complete stand up fight, because it would be totally jumping whatever shark is left to jump in this series.

Nope!

It's frustrating, but in Macross Frontier the SMS VB-6 Konig Monster had some kind of machine gun mounted in each arm. Canaria is shown using them several times, most notably in the series finale, where there's a closeup of her Konig Monster in Battroid mode (IIRC that was the only time it was shown in that mode) firing some manner of machine gun (be it laser, beam, or solid shell, we know not). No forearm-mounted gun is documented in the stats for it but it's clearly shown on more than one occasion.

(Not to be confused with the movie trailer-only version that showed a pair of colossal rotary cannons mounted to the inside of the arms, clearly copied from the Cheyenne CG model.)

Oh yeah, thanks for the reminder. You're right, there were some type of machine gun coming out of the arms; You really don't see any hint of it in any of the line art. I had thought it was logical that those shots came from the chin mount, but you're clearly correct on this. I do hate it when they put armaments on that doesn't show up on stats. The most annoying went all the way back to the original macross where the VF-1 had lasers coming from the nose of the aircraft, clearly never used before, but there it was in the Max+Milia episode. Totally screwy.

[RedWolf]

Folks, keep in mind that SMS installed updates to their VB-6 that are not on the official specs. I'm sure most NUNS groups throughout the galaxy have made modifications to their own VB-6s which are not listed in the official specs.

*Looks at Lana's Konig Orgel...*

[Seto Kaiba]

I do hate it when they put armaments on that doesn't show up on stats. The most annoying went all the way back to the original macross where the VF-1 had lasers coming from the nose of the aircraft, clearly never used before, but there it was in the Max+Milia episode. Totally screwy.

Apples and oranges, I'd say. The "nose lasers" were one of several animation gaffes to occur in the original series because of the way the animation was farmed out to multiple companies (at least one of which was of iffy quality). The Konig Monster having some manner of machine gun out on the arm appears to be very much intentional, but just wasn't documented correctly when the time came to cover it in Macross Chronicle.

The switch to CG models has eliminated a lot of the off-model animation for mecha... leaving just these occasional frustrating failures to write stuff down, though at least TPTB are now being consistent in depicting stuff they haven't written down.

All told, I'm just left to wonder how incompetent the Windermerean occupation forces and/or their mind-controlled NUNS puppets are... given that the NUNS from several planets was somehow able to not only mount a resistence, but apparently a full-fledged counterattack with warships, fighters, bombers, and anti-capital ship reaction ordinance sufficient to leave the Windermerean occupation forces on multiple planets begging for reinforcement from HQ.

Are the Windermerean occupation forces or their slaves just blindly OK-ing requisition forms no matter what? Did Captain Larazzabal just repeat the word "Wind" over and over like he's a Pokemon until a mind-controlled quartermaster coughed up a dozen Valkyries and a warship? Is Voldor suffering an epidemic of pilots taking their Valkyries home instead of buying cars no bureaucrat wanted to report? I can't decide.

The one thing that the show's writers probably DIDN'T intend those scenes to convey that the audience is gonna pick up right away is that Xaos and Walkure are surplus to requirements in this counteroffensive. The NUNS did all this without any help from them... which suggests to me that the NUNS probably don't actually need their help to win now that Heinz is out of the fight.

[Ghostbear0]

Apples and oranges, I'd say. The "nose lasers" were one of several animation gaffes to occur in the original series because of the way the animation was farmed out to multiple companies (at least one of which was of iffy quality). The Konig Monster having some manner of machine gun out on the arm appears to be very much intentional, but just wasn't documented correctly when the time came to cover it in Macross Chronicle.

The switch to CG models has eliminated a lot of the off-model animation for mecha... leaving just these occasional frustrating failures to write stuff down, though at least TPTB are now being consistent in depicting stuff they haven't written down.

All told, I'm just left to wonder how incompetent the Windermerean occupation forces and/or their mind-controlled NUNS puppets are... given that the NUNS from several planets was somehow able to not only mount a resistence, but apparently a full-fledged counterattack with warships, fighters, bombers, and anti-capital ship reaction ordinance sufficient to leave the Windermerean occupation forces on multiple planets begging for reinforcement from HQ.

Are the Windermerean occupation forces or their slaves just blindly OK-ing requisition forms no matter what? Did Captain Larazzabal just repeat the word "Wind" over and over like he's a Pokemon until a mind-controlled quartermaster coughed up a dozen Valkyries and a warship? Is Voldor suffering an epidemic of pilots taking their Valkyries home instead of buying cars no bureaucrat wanted to report? I can't decide.

The one thing that the show's writers probably DIDN'T intend those scenes to convey that the audience is gonna pick up right away is that Xaos and Walkure are surplus to requirements in this counteroffensive. The NUNS did all this without any help from them... which suggests to me that the NUNS probably don't actually need their help to win now that Heinz is out of the fight.

Are you shure that the MUM's weren't coordinating with Chaos? Not saying your wrong I'm just not willing to make that call pre subs mind I have zero Japanese.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Ghostbear0

[NightmarePlus]

Are you shure that the NUNS' weren't coordinating with Chaos? Not saying your wrong I'm just not willing to make that call pre subs mind I have zero Japanese.

FTFY mang.

[Roy Focker]

While this is one of the better episodes. It doesn't fix the overall problem with this series. Too much plot and not enough time. They got the Triangle, Walkure & the Knights. With less than half an hour in each episode for them. In reality they needed hour long episodes. I think the 2nd half of the series suffered because they were playing catch up for the Walkure and the Knights. Now that they're caught up things can continue.

I'm not sure if things are going to turn out good for Hayate. The way things are going I can see him being over whelmed by the Var and making a heroic sacrifice. That or they're going to the big happy song that saves everyone. Character wise I see him sacrificing himself to symbolically undue what his father did.

[Seto Kaiba]

Are you shure that the MUM's weren't coordinating with Chaos? Not saying your wrong I'm just not willing to make that call pre subs mind I have zero Japanese.

That's not what I said.

We know Xaos coordinated the timing of their move to gain access to Windermere via the ruins with the NUNS resistence op... but that's where it ends. While Xaos was faffing about out in deep space being defeated by unarmed guards and sliding doors, the New UN Spacy was planning their counterattack and coordinating a multi-planet offensive well-supplied enough that they left the Aerial Knights begging Roid for ace reinforcements. It looks a lot like Xaos being there isn't actually going to change the outcome any.

Plus, up to now, the show has been persistently harping on how essential Walkure (and Xaos) are to defeating the Aerial Knights and freeing Brisingr. But in this episode, it's looking like the NUNS had the Knights on the ropes before the Macross Elysion ever showed up... and with King Ketchup out of action and bedridden, our heroes aren't actually needed to win the fight at this point. It kind of takes all the "elite hero-ness" out of Xaos that those NUNS grunts they were badmouthing when Hayate first joined up are seemingly enjoying more actual success in a stand-up fight, and that they're doing it without being armed with the latest state-of-the-art fighters. It's that same kind of "Why are you even on the payroll?" that occurred when the Knights jammed Walkure's fold amps, and left Makina, Reina, and Kaname utterly useless.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[kalvasflam]

All told, I'm just left to wonder how incompetent the Windermerean occupation forces and/or their mind-controlled NUNS puppets are... given that the NUNS from several planets was somehow able to not only mount a resistence, but apparently a full-fledged counterattack with warships, fighters, bombers, and anti-capital ship reaction ordinance sufficient to leave the Windermerean occupation forces on multiple planets begging for reinforcement from HQ.

Are the Windermerean occupation forces or their slaves just blindly OK-ing requisition forms no matter what? Did Captain Larazzabal just repeat the word "Wind" over and over like he's a Pokemon until a mind-controlled quartermaster coughed up a dozen Valkyries and a warship? Is Voldor suffering an epidemic of pilots taking their Valkyries home instead of buying cars no bureaucrat wanted to report? I can't decide.

The one thing that the show's writers probably DIDN'T intend those scenes to convey that the audience is gonna pick up right away is that Xaos and Walkure are surplus to requirements in this counteroffensive. The NUNS did all this without any help from them... which suggests to me that the NUNS probably don't actually need their help to win now that Heinz is out of the fight.

yep, no doubt there is much left to be desired on the story telling front. I think it is somewhat reasonable that NUNS had some operational forces, after all, Voldor was freed... say it with me: "WEEESSSA FREE" (doing my best Jar Jar impression here). So , it's not inconceivable that the forces near Voldor was freed, and I do recall there were some NUNS ships. Have to wait for the subs to see if they put in anything on coordinating the attacks, my feeling is that they just skipped that part. I also assume it might be possible that they took some of the forces guarding the island, but that's just impossible to tell; especially since the Elysion went off by itself.

But your point about Windermeres being inept is also probably correct, note that the second Voldor infiltration, no one saw anything in orbit until those four Winderemere Kaitos variants folded in. I also have to wonder just how effective the mind controlled forces are, do they have to be given specific directions, or are they autonomous? This could also be a question of Windermere forces being stretched too thin.

I would think that with the manpower issues, how the Windermerean forces should react given what we're seeing of their capabilities is to have the mind controlled forces do a majority of the defending the area, while there are a few ships and troops (Windermerean) in orbit, while a bulk of the strike force from Winderemere is centered around the SV, and can be rapid deployed to any planet via their magical fold gate. That gives them the chance to rapidly offset any concentrated attacks by NUNS, as long as ketchup boy is doing some yodeling of Jingle Bells.

I also do agree with the point of the standing NUNS forces not being that bad, I think this is also a problem of story telling when the focus was on elite hero units.

There are big holes that remain to be filled, we'll see what they say when the subs come out.

I do feel this series is seriously under budgeted, and they expect to use the name to carry it, what with the repeated reuse of animation, poor story, you couldn't help but feel that either SK took a big powder on this one, or the A team was too busy doing another show, and someone less capable was put in place for this series. Sorry, preaching to the choir, I know, I guess that's just a measure of me being a more die hard fan and feeling let down. Although I might still buy at least the generic SV-262 if I can ever get it available.

Edited August 29, 2016 by kalvasflam

[MisaForever]

Can some explain how the name MACROSS doesn't automatically give it a huge budget to work with? I mean even I, someone who mostly prefers focusing on the characters in a Macross show, am quite annoyed with the slow story and character progression as well as lack of mecha action. Did they just pull a writer off the street or are they funded by some different group?? Why is a Macross series suffering???

[Seto Kaiba]

Can some explain how the name MACROSS doesn't automatically give it a huge budget to work with? I mean even I, someone who mostly prefers focusing on the characters in a Macross show, am quite annoyed with the slow story and character progression as well as lack of mecha action. Did they just pull a writer off the street or are they funded by some different group?? Why is a Macross series suffering???

It may have something to do with the fact that this series was originally only intended to be 13 episodes long... as confirmed in the liner notes for BD volume 2.

It looks like something similar to what happened with the original series happened with the production of Delta... the ratings were good enough around Ep3-4 for the show to get green-lit for an unplanned extension. The difference being, in this case, they don't appear to have had a bunch of predeveloped surplus plot laying around the way they did with the original series (after it was cut from 49 episodes to 27 and then bumped back up to 36).

It feels almost like the writing team is having a Futurama moment. As Fry put it, "It took half an hour to write, I thought it'd take half an hour to read!" Way, WAY too much episode left at the end of the plot each time, so it's padded like a menstruating firehose.

[eko.prasetiyo]

perhaps in the next episode they will tell the story of hayate's father or better, perhaps he still alive exiled in winderemere

[kalvasflam]

It may have something to do with the fact that this series was originally only intended to be 13 episodes long... as confirmed in the liner notes for BD volume 2.

Seriously???? What were they thinking, they could've just done an OVA like Gundam Unicorn, put six or seven hour long episodes. I thought Zero suffered, but compared to this, Zero was downright awesome.

[hevangel2]

It was already mentioned in previous episodes regarding Heinz, as "we cannot let his rune run out" or something like it.

Freya uses her rune a lot, will she run out of rune and die at the end too?

[Sandman]

Seriously delta was originally going to be 13 episodes? There was no way they were going to tell their whole story especially without shortshifting most of their extended cast. I would like to see their outline for that 13 episode series.

[SuperHobo]

It may have something to do with the fact that this series was originally only intended to be 13 episodes long... as confirmed in the liner notes for BD volume 2.

It looks like something similar to what happened with the original series happened with the production of Delta... the ratings were good enough around Ep3-4 for the show to get green-lit for an unplanned extension. The difference being, in this case, they don't appear to have had a bunch of predeveloped surplus plot laying around the way they did with the original series (after it was cut from 49 episodes to 27 and then bumped back up to 36).

It feels almost like the writing team is having a Futurama moment. As Fry put it, "It took half an hour to write, I thought it'd take half an hour to read!" Way, WAY too much episode left at the end of the plot each time, so it's padded like a menstruating firehose.

Not that I don't believe you are anything. but can I get a confirmation on the "intended 13 episodes long" portion of the liner notes? I find this information pretty interesting and it would explain a lot about what we are currently getting in the 2nd half.

[antonpogi]

I dont know about everyone but When Hayate and Mirage had a Max and Milia Moment PRICELESS!!!

(spinning back to back)

[NBasara]

It may have something to do with the fact that this series was originally only intended to be 13 episodes long... as confirmed in the liner notes for BD volume 2.

Suddenly it makes so much sense. When I watched episode 13, it felt like I was watching a final episode(the ship action, Freyja jumping off the ship to get her song through, Hayate defeating Keith, etc.). With a few changes, I would have liked it as a final episode.

It's disappointing to find out that producers would sacrifice an already complete storyline and add subpar episodes just because the ratings were good. I understand that this probably happens all the time, but if you have some idea that you might be extended(you really thought you were going to make a 13 episode Macross tv series?), then have a better idea of what the continuation will be. The episodes since episode 13 have been painful to watch. I can't imagine anything other than a train wreck happening at this point.

Well, if Basara appeared in the last episode, my mind could be persuaded.

[UN Spacy]

Did I just heard the word Destroid during the com chatter at the just after the OP?

Are there Destroids onboard Hemera?!?

[eko.prasetiyo]

lets hope it will be 13x3 episode

[azrael]

Yeah, I can see the next week being another exposition episode.

Another "Infiltration"-episode. They need to make their way to Windermere's PC ruins. They have to go through Frejya's hometown where we get to learn more about Frejya. Oh hey, let's throw in the side story about Hayate's dad since we're sneaking around. Hayate's dad saw Frejya during his tour of duty, notice she liked to sing so he gave her his MP3 player, in a "Here kid. Sing like these people and you'll be great." They reach the ruins but the Knights have caught up to them and can't blow the ruins soon enough. But Maki-Maki and Rei-Rei have figured out how they're jumping through the fold fault and they can get them back to the fleet. Stuff happens, we get a little fighting and Frejya can't get back and is caught. Roid has his replacement to King Ketchup and Haya-Haya screams "FREJYA!!!!" Mission 23.

I'm going to agree that this episode, while much better, was a day late and several dollars short. Let this be a lesson to make more story then cut it down. Not make short story and expand it.

And concerning Keith and Heinz...

Still BS. Keith could have shown more compassion in earlier parts. Instead we get that now. When his half brother is now on his death bed. That's BS writing there.

[eko.prasetiyo]

well perhaps on winderemere hayate & mirage can get a more romantic relationship and that broke freyja, so she sing with negative emotion and then roid found out about that and kidnapped her to replace dying Heinz

Edited August 29, 2016 by eko.prasetiyo

[RedWolf]

Mikumo is aiming for the Imouto route!

What happened between Cassim and Hayate furthers my theory it was the Windermereans own telepathic hostile intentions causes Var in other people. Hayate was keeping in control till he made contact with Cassim. If so the Aerial Knights are partly to blame for the loss of Carlisle. Their own hate for foreigners destroyed their people. History may repeat itself.

Voldorians kicking Windermerean ass. What now that they are immune to tour mind hax?

[charles88]

My main theory was that their rune is main reason their lifespan short. Also most likely protoculture try to create a race can link mind using rune while enhanced their spatial awareness. However they found out the thing that make Widermere powerful also shorten lifespan thus abandon experiment. Other words, Windermere are failed experiment. I wonder if my theory true and Windermere found out about it, are they willing to abandon their rune power to increase lifespan or not. Also RIP Cassim. Your are awesome

Edited August 29, 2016 by charles88

[Aries Turner]

Apples and oranges, I'd say. The "nose lasers" were one of several animation gaffes to occur in the original series because of the way the animation was farmed out to multiple companies (at least one of which was of iffy quality). The Konig Monster having some manner of machine gun out on the arm appears to be very much intentional, but just wasn't documented correctly when the time came to cover it in Macross Chronicle.

The switch to CG models has eliminated a lot of the off-model animation for mecha... leaving just these occasional frustrating failures to write stuff down, though at least TPTB are now being consistent in depicting stuff they haven't written down.

The Konig is also notable for losing four engines (or were those rockets?) in the SMS upgrade. Sure, it is now piloted by one in EX-Gear, instead of three. It is lighter. But almost half the weight? Upgrading everything but the engine output? Why? As those missile tubes are big, you could conceivably design an inert missile, without engine nor guidance, only the tube and the fire solid state logic, with a bundled gunpod. No upgrade is required, only minor software changes or take into mind that when launch tube three reports back Failure to Launch it could be safely ignored, as it was never intended to launch in the first place, only make cannon bursts until exhausted every time you ´try again to launch it´. Too convoluted, but already done before in real life. Of course this is not canon answer, just plausible workaround over what we actually see. Besides, that kind of in-the-field jury rigged modifications mean the model should be well on its way of being replaced. I´d hate and love that at the same time: those four cannons really look cool. But two beam grenade ubercannons make more sense in this timeframe. Macross 1/50th.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Aries Turner

[seti88]

Hmm when they showed the scene i wished mirage would just pull the trigger on hayate...Kablooooiee! Not from a sadist pov but from a storyline perspective, now that would be dramatic...

Help! I just had a maniacal lapse!

[Seto Kaiba]

Seriously???? What were they thinking, they could've just done an OVA like Gundam Unicorn, put six or seven hour long episodes. I thought Zero suffered, but compared to this, Zero was downright awesome.

Not that I don't believe you are anything. but can I get a confirmation on the "intended 13 episodes long" portion of the liner notes? I find this information pretty interesting and it would explain a lot about what we are currently getting in the 2nd half.

It's on page 38 of the BD Limited Edition Macross Delta Vol.2 booklet.

ThisConfusesGamlin reposted a picture of that part of the booklet that someone from AnimeSuki took, showing the bit about the series having been put together as a one cour series and extended to two cour partway into broadcast.

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=30860&page=55#entry1299041

The Konig is also notable for losing four engines (or were those rockets?) in the SMS upgrade.

... what?

The stock model has always had two thermonuclear reaction turbine engines and four plasma rockets, and the Ravens version was upgraded to have four turbines.

Other than that, the basic stats are identical.

Sure, it is now piloted by one in EX-Gear, instead of three. It is lighter. But almost half the weight?

The weight given for the VB-6 SMS ver. and VB-6 Ravens ver. are the same... 101,900kg.

Upgrading everything but the engine output? Why?

Considering the SMS VB-6 was equipped with the same energy conversion armor as the VF-25's Armored Pack (ASWGA Advanced Energy Conversion Armor), its reactor output probably matters more.

Besides, that kind of in-the-field jury rigged modifications mean the model should be well on its way of being replaced. I´d hate and love that at the same time: those four cannons really look cool. But two beam grenade ubercannons make more sense in this timeframe. Macross 1/50th.

Sometimes, an aircraft fills a niche SO well that it can linger on in service decades beyond its expected lifespan... like the B-52. The VB-6 has only been in (N)UNS service for 27 years at this point.

Mind you, the modifications made to SMS's one VB-6 in the Frontier fleet are probably not representative of all VB-6's everywhere, considering the cost of the next-generation Advanced Energy Conversion Armor is what makes the VF-25 Armored Pack so expensive it's limited to platoon leaders and aces. It'd be a stretch to call them jury-rigged too, since the mods to the SMS Frontier VB-6 were probably done by the Robbins Design Company, who specialize in doing VF customization and have done far crazier things (like the VF-0 Custom "Zeak").

[zaino]

neutral vote for once

im really not amused with the amount of recycled footage they keep using. did they run out of budget or something?

[sh9000]

Subs are out.