Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 21 - READ 1st POST

[Sildani]

You'll need two beers.

[Strumvogel]

You would have think they(Kawamori/Satelight) would have enough feedback about the sag in Frontier's story and pacing leading up to the finale that they wouldn't be making the same mistake. As it is I may have to start considering it as standard procedure for all Macross series going forward.

It doesn't help that Delta just isn't as engaging in terms of story and characters as Frontier was, making everything seem worse.

[kalvasflam]

Macross Delta got to episode 13, then slowed to a crawl and completely forgot there was a war on.

War? What war? I thought this show was about moppy origins

Well we got a few reveals in this episode. Roid killed the king; suspicions realized. Mikumo is an engineered clone, designed to fight the var, which speaks a lot about the future need to recruit singers after this.

Roid I get; what I don't get is why Keith was ok with this. By the way, I just whacked your dad... ummmm... ho hum, don't hurt Heinz... WTF?

Mikumo got her Sheryl moment, doesn't matter what I am (Sheryl: "doesn't matter if I die"); I'm a singer, and I'm gonna sing (Sheryl: pretty much the same)

As for the pacing on MacF episodes 18 to 22; I though even those had impact; After all, Mikhail kicked the bucket during that span; and that had a good deal of impact. Almost like a mini-me version of Max dying.

[Zinjo]

Macross Frontier's episodes 18-22 seem like rare impressive masterpieces compared to what Delta is delivering now.

In order not be disapointed next episode, I've decided to spice things up. I'll open up a beer at episodes start. Every time someone says the words "wind" or "sing" I'll have a sip. That should be fun.

You won't make it to the end without needing more beer...

Edited August 24, 2016 by Zinjo

[azrael]

...what I don't get is why Keith was ok with this. By the way, I just whacked your dad... ummmm... ho hum, don't hurt Heinz... WTF?

Speaking of which, what was Keith's relationship like with dear-dead dad (being the bastard child)? He had the whole "loyal soldier"-attitude up when ever we saw the 2 in the same scene. And don't tell me it's in the bloody manga.

[NightmarePlus]

Speaking of which, what was Keith's relationship like with dear-dead dad (being the bastard child)? He had the whole "loyal soldier"-attitude up when ever we saw the 2 in the same scene. And don't tell me it's in the bloody manga.

It's in the manga.

[cwmodels]

I find it kind funny that people are still debating who Lady M could turn out to be. Does it even matter at this point? Looks like she'll only appear at the last episode as a nod to continuity, and that in my opinion is BS outdated form of anime writing. If you are gonna introduce a plot element, THEN USE IT! Don't give it to us as some kind of fanboy handout! Like everything else in this series it has no real impact to the story or character at all thus far.

As for character development, there were several "moments' that really weren't capitalized on. Kaname and Messer was one that immediately comes to mind. For a short series, drawing out the triangle between Hayate, Frejya and Mirage was a poor choice. Hinting at Mirage's self doubt but never really showcasing it more was another mistake.

It seems like they are missing the focus of this story and are instead throwing too much at the wall, I like the universe building, but sometimes too much can be a distraction to the principle point of any story. What message are you trying to convey? That is fairly obscure at this point. Using mystery as a plot device only works for so long before you have to reveal things. The best method is the Abrams described method of ending one mystery at the same time you introduce a new one. Delta is carrying too many mysteries for too long, holding the story back.

After Episode 13, the show feel like you're stuck in a traffic jam with constant stop and go stop and go and stop.

To your assertion, what was the point of learning the history of Walkure? So we'd care about the characters more? Didn't really seam to work for me. Just a history lesson about how they came together that could have been covered in the manga for those who wanted to know. This didn't advance the story and seemed very much like a filler episode, animated to give the CG team more time to create the imminent battle sequences yet to come.

They could have used this episode for any number of side stories. Stories like the attraction between Kaname and Messer or the growing triangle with Arad and perhaps the implied competition between the two for Kaname's affections. Maybe some more hints at Roid and Keith's relationship or a visual hint that Lady M was closer than we thought. Relevant insights into the characters that would draw us into caring for them.

Messer's death was akin to Michael's death in Frontier, but in several ways handled much better to tug at our hearts. Then that hook was allowed to slip away in favor of narratives complete with talking heads for 3 episodes after an obligatory battle episode.

I honestly don't need a back story for the Walkure. The show just ran with them already a group from the beginning and I was perfectly find with it. It's just way too late in the game to bring up all this past history because there's still so many other back story that are more important that is yet explained. (Hyatt's father, Mirage's family tie, and Windemeres are so under developed as characters/villains at this point that I feel NOTHING for them)

Watched it with the subs.

Going to have to give it a Negative vote. There's a major problem this origin episode and it isn't just that it should have been told earlier in the series. The problem is who are they telling this story of their past to?

If Freyja was arrested with them she could be their audience. Instead the 3 of them are all the story tellers of a story they all know? Parents will tell their children about they first met and fell in love. They (Parents) don't sit together and narrative something like this to each other. When you think about it the origin story wasn't even needed. We've already been told a lot of this information. In this episode Hayate, Freyja and Mirage didn't even appear. Are they not the main characters? Okay maybe they didn't have them appear because this was a Walkure episode but couldn't at least Freyja show up? She's part of the band. She could have visit them in space jail and that's when they tell Freyja the origin story of Walkure. That's when it would have made sense. You know when there's someone to tell the origin story to who didn't live through it themselves.

That falls into the area of BAD WRITING. Not to mention for the past several episodes all the information is delivered with characters either standing around or sitting around doing nothing but emotionlessly talk, talk and talk.


So far for me the best thing to come out of every episode is seeing Brian Cranston inspiring comments here! I need some right now!

[Zinjo]

I find it kind funny that people are still debating who Lady M could turn out to be. Does it even matter at this point? Looks like she'll only appear at the last episode as a nod to continuity, and that in my opinion is BS outdated form of anime writing. If you are gonna introduce a plot element, THEN USE IT! Don't give it to us as some kind of fanboy handout! Like everything else in this series it has no real impact to the story or character at all thus far.

The big reveal about Sheryl was that she was indeed the grand daughter of Mao Nome, not just a coincidental namesake. The reason for her orphaning was pretty well never really explained, but at least we knew something earlier on than much of Delta. As I've said for some odd reason they are holding the mysteries longer than necessary. Solve one and introduce another and keep us wondering. At this point, we want to know, but aren't that excited about the answer due to the frustration of waiting for so long.

[Saruta]

Okay. okay. I get it. Lady M actually bought into the Walkure idea of saving Mikumo with their energy or whatever. But wanted to keep a semblance of order in Xaos. So she locked them up - on the medship next to Mikumo! And allowed them to communicate even though each was in her own room - probably a loudspeaker system for all the cells including Mikumo's, ensuring the girls spoke into the mic. This is a good idea - and the only reason I gave this a Neutral, not a Negative.

The flashback is decidedly underwhelming. The mecha action, uninspiring. The yuri relationship development, nonexistant (let's fight for some time, then suddenly join hands when hearing Mikumo? Could they at least stick in some discovery that Reina's lesbian and was bullied for that, or something?). The former Walkure members, cardboard. Also, the singing in the flashback sounded forced - though that might be intentional and a plot point, all the other stuff is just bad writing/animation/whatever.

The two reveals - that Mikumo is a clone and that Makina is after all a descendant of Ranzo Nakajima - were pretty well spoiled. We knew this from Episode 2, or 4, or something like that. If we got these reveals by mid-series it would be satisfying, now it's "too little, too late". One reveal remains, who is Lady M - but it's also been delayed way too long with no good inworld reason (the girls now mention Lady M told them something, so they know, and we are kept in the dark artificially).

Also - Walkure, at the start, have a super long haired figure in their cover image, even though none of the members appear to have such hair. Unless I have missed something, that's just outright lazy design.

The show is rotting away. Fast. I still do hope they can turn it around - after all something like that happened to SDFM too, not to mention M7 - but... really, Kawamori, why?

EDIT: forgot the Roid reveal about "connecting minds". Okay, Shoji-san, I also hated the idea of Gaia when I read Asimov's Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth. Hive minds are a bad bad idea. And this is why they are the aims of villains in the SECOND SERIES IN A ROW.

EDIT2: and yes, upon some comment-reading, Roid's plot armour. Keith just learned Roid KILLED HIS FATHER. Keith also suspects, pretty strongly, that Roid's plans are not great for Heinz' health (to put it mildly). Keith is no pacifist, either. And he does not drive a dagger through Roid at that point? Or challenge him to a duel, if he's all that Knightly?

Edited August 25, 2016 by Saruta

[This Confuses Gamlin]

EDIT2: and yes, upon some comment-reading, Roid's plot armour. Keith just learned Roid KILLED HIS FATHER. Keith also suspects, pretty strongly, that Roid's plans are not great for Heinz' health (to put it mildly). Keith is no pacifist, either. And he does not drive a dagger through Roid at that point? Or challenge him to a duel, if he's all that Knightly?

He just learned this. All this time, Keith has been playing the part of the loyal soldier for the cause, and seems to have trusted Roid longer than a lot of other people (well, two, Hermann and Qasim) have. That wasn't necessarily smart on his part, but it is smart of him not to just terminate Roid then and there. Keith doesn't know if Epsilon/Berger is just going to say "Sorry, I never made the deal with you" and leave, and he doesn't know enough about Heinz's abilities to make good use of them. He does or should know that NUNS, which he hates, would show up shortly afterward to steal their technology and possibly permanently mess up the planet that he just spent some time building an empire for.

[Raptor One]

This episode made me think that a series about the formation of Walkure might have been a lot of fun. Seeing them struggle to even show that the concept itself was plausible and then eventually coming together to get it done could have been a nice hell yea moment. Plus it would have forced them to actually give some depth to these characters

[ayaxr]

This episode made me think that a series about the formation of Walkure might have been a lot of fun. Seeing them struggle to even show that the concept itself was plausible and then eventually coming together to get it done could have been a nice hell yea moment. Plus it would have forced them to actually give some depth to these characters

That actually might have been a good side story project or something like that. Or they could have used that setting as this series and leaned more on the military aspect thru the creation of Walkure and given us the healthy mecha dose thru there...

At episode 21 I don't really care how Walkure was formed anymore, its exposition for the sake of exposition and feels like a filler. Its something that could have easily been tied in early on in the series when Freyja joined and then we would have learned Walkure's past alongside the MC..I mean it makes sense that way doesnt it? At this point we should have been well into the final arc to get it to the home stretch with the stakes rising and rising.

And surprise surprise. Next episode features more "character development" with lots of talking and talking.

Edited August 25, 2016 by ayaxr

[hachi]

I've lowered my expectations for this series now. I'm just hoping there's going to be a movie that tells a better story.

[Sandman]

That's pretty much my hope now. Hopefully the movies if there are any will fix this mess.

[no3Ljm]

I've lowered my expectations for this series now. I'm just hoping there's going to be a movie that tells a better story.

Well, that's the thing. Why they're always making a movie to correct the series mistakes? Is it because just to sell toys?

[Graham]

I was actually surprisingly ok with this episode after watching it subbed last night.

At least we got some mecha action with Arad's VF-31A, even if it was only a few second's worth.

And I quite enjoyed the Walkure origin story.

The only thing that bugged me like it did other's was Keith's recation to Roid's admission that he killed his father. I mean if someone killed my father with a knife, even if he was already dying with likely only a few hours, days or weeks to live, I'd still be pretty pissed off.

[Einherjar]

The only thing that bugged me like it did other's was Keith's recation to Roid's admission that he killed his father. I mean if someone killed my father with a knife, even if he was already dying with likely only a few hours, days or weeks to live, I'd still be pretty pissed off.

I thought the show was hinting early on that there was a two man conspiracy between them in starting this war. This episode just confirmed it. Could've sworn that Keith wanted his father to keel over sooner or later for their plans to go forward, which is starting to look like revenge/justice against against everyone who wronged them during the Revolution. I'm guessing Gramia did some screwed up things to him growing up or during the war.

Also, to me the combination of the Sigur Valens operating at 100%, Heinz's hypnosis ability which also transfers his current mental state to the masses, and a megalomaniac scientist who has no problem committing regicide can lead to only one conclusion - galactic genocide of all non-Windermereans affected by the Var. A literal Song of Death.

[Tochiro]

Our thoughts on this weeks episode are up!
http://www.macrossworld.com/speakerpodcast-ep-64-macrossΔ-ep-21-spoilercast/

[RedWolf]

Oh crap just realized Mikumo is a reverse Klan. She looks like an adult but is a kid.

[tout-puissant]

I did enjoy this week's episode - always like a good origin story. Nice new song, filling in some details on Walkure's early days, failures and even successes before Mikumo showed up. This felt like a decent non-mecha Macross episode. It's a shame that most of the second half of this show are just like it.

Yes, Delta has been having severe arc and pacing problems in this second half, after an overall solid first half. I feel like much of the second half are almost standalone side stories for our heroes while those other guys on Windermere are advancing with the main plot - kinda like watching a bunch of "The Galaxy Is Calling Me" and those Macross 7 OVA episodes after finishing Macross 7.

No one sets out to make bad television, which leaves me to wonder what happened in the writers room when they broke the arc of the series. They may have realized after production started that they just didn't have enough story to fill 2-cours of show, and after moving plot elements forward they could only backfill the remaining time with flashbacks and side stories to pan out the show till the end. In the meantime, the songs and idol unit that the show is supporting have been arguably more successful than the show, which is the bottom line for the studio after all.

This being Macross AND a still-very-popular anime in this day and age, we'll almost certainly have a compilation movie or two within a couple years. This gives SK and his crew a chance to produce a version of Delta with the right balance of story, character and MAYBE even mecha action to satisfy more of us hardcore, non-Japanese fans.

Mark

[seti88]

If mikumo is a clone, wouldn't it b a hoot if lady m somehow turns out to be a minnay clone or gene technology wise the real minmay...

And so the original singer returns to create the next generation girl group...

[chyll2]

Will probably wait for the eventual movie and probably a new ending as well.

[Zinjo]

I did enjoy this week's episode - always like a good origin story. Nice new song, filling in some details on Walkure's early days, failures and even successes before Mikumo showed up. This felt like a decent non-mecha Macross episode. It's a shame that most of the second half of this show are just like it.

Yes, Delta has been having severe arc and pacing problems in this second half, after an overall solid first half. I feel like much of the second half are almost standalone side stories for our heroes while those other guys on Windermere are advancing with the main plot - kinda like watching a bunch of "The Galaxy Is Calling Me" and those Macross 7 OVA episodes after finishing Macross 7.

No one sets out to make bad television, which leaves me to wonder what happened in the writers room when they broke the arc of the series. They may have realized after production started that they just didn't have enough story to fill 2-cours of show, and after moving plot elements forward they could only backfill the remaining time with flashbacks and side stories to pan out the show till the end. In the meantime, the songs and idol unit that the show is supporting have been arguably more successful than the show, which is the bottom line for the studio after all.

This being Macross AND a still-very-popular anime in this day and age, we'll almost certainly have a compilation movie or two within a couple years. This gives SK and his crew a chance to produce a version of Delta with the right balance of story, character and MAYBE even mecha action to satisfy more of us hardcore, non-Japanese fans.

Mark

I have little impression this story was ever broken in the writers room. Its seems more like they were doing their best to flesh out the Kawamori outline without really providing feedback to the author that some elements wouldn't work.

SK always seems to struggle with drama when working with idol / mecha shows where the idols are the heroes. M7 had a similar issue at the beginning and then when the story moved toward universe building and physical struggle, things straightened out.

[Aries Turner]

There were some things I liked about this episode:

a) Berger, as a civilian, is kept mainly in the dark on military affairs, but keeps asking here and there to put the pieces together and get the whole picture, to great effect.

b) If my memory not falters as usual, at Mikumo intro, when she looks backwards to the girls for the first time, her eyes and attitude resemble a promotional Sharon Apple virturoid pose. Doesn't mean anything, it could be Kawamori trolling, as when Ozma gets his Pineapple Salad.

[Saruta]

b) If my memory not falters as usual, at Mikumo intro, when she looks backwards to the girls for the first time, her eyes and attitude resemble a promotional Sharon Apple virturoid pose. Doesn't mean anything, it could be Kawamori trolling, as when Ozma gets his Pineapple Salad.

Could you please remind me where this pose can be seen?

[Ghostbear0]

Minor pet peve of mine neither Roy or Ozuma GOT their pineapple foodstuff. Eating pineapple isn't the curse its planning to eat pineapple.

[Aries Turner]

From all the virturoid forms of Sharon Apple, this one. During Earth concert she turns her head as Mikumo did. Not this scene, though, but I don't have the movie.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Roy Focker]

4 episodes to go right?

Ending this series without dropping several previous storylines will be impossible.

[sharky]

Just offscreen, there is a very bored security guard they're telling all this to... and no doubt he's wishing they'd skip ahead to something more exciting like the group bonding over a lingerie pillow fight.

They were probably trying to drive him to suicide out of shear boredom so they could make their escape.

[kalvasflam]

4 episodes to go right?

Ending this series without dropping several previous storylines will be impossible.

Naw, they just have to kill a few people (AK, Chuck, a couple of Walkure, may be Arad) and slap in another couple episodes of origin stories. Then all will be well.

[505thAirborne]

Naw, they just have to kill a few people (AK, Chuck, a couple of Walkure, may be Arad) and slap in another couple episodes of origin stories. Then all will be well.

[kalvasflam]

Until that works. At this point, it feels like they just need to do something that has lots of fighting.... Valks going kaboom. But would be better if they trickle it in instead of all at once.

[Seto Kaiba]

4 episodes to go right?

Ending this series without dropping several previous storylines will be impossible.

Unless they intend to try to surprise us with a Season 2 announcement at the end of the final episode the way Iron-Blooded Orphans tried to, they're going to have to jettison a LOT of the build-up they've done to get this series wrapped up in an orderly fashion.

The fast, almost frenetic pace of the first half practically screamed "2 cour series"... but the glacially slow, padded-like-a-menstruating-firehose pace of the second half feels more like it belongs in a 3 or 4 cour series.

They were probably trying to drive him to suicide out of shear boredom so they could make their escape.

Damn near worked on the audience instead, so I can only imagine how bad it was for the guards...

I'll just sit and wait for Pink, Neon Green, and Red to be the new Green and let them all get Kakizaki'd.

[Zinjo]

Unless they intend to try to surprise us with a Season 2 announcement at the end of the final episode the way Iron-Blooded Orphans tried to, they're going to have to jettison a LOT of the build-up they've done to get this series wrapped up in an orderly fashion.

The fast, almost frenetic pace of the first half practically screamed "2 cour series"... but the glacially slow, padded-like-a-menstruating-firehose pace of the second half feels more like it belongs in a 3 or 4 cour series.

Damn near worked on the audience instead, so I can only imagine how bad it was for the guards...

I'll just sit and wait for Pink, Neon Green, and Red to be the new Green and let them all get Kakizaki'd.

It's doubtful this is more than a single season effort since Kawamori has already started pre-production on his next series.

[Seto Kaiba]

It's doubtful this is more than a single season effort since Kawamori has already started pre-production on his next series.

Kawamori's only providing supervision on this one, so it wouldn't be completely out of the question... but if they intend to wrap this series up for a 26 or 27 episode final count it's going to be an absolute and unholy train wreck.