Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 21 - READ 1st POST

[Heron]

Since many of you are homesick for some Dogfighting!

Watching that again works to show how much Delta is missing Mecha Combat. I mean wouldn't it be great if Hayate and Keith went at it like that?? Jeez

[Mommar]

I'm not as offended as others with Delta but they do sorely need some dogfights like that Max and Milia one. it seemed like there was so much potential for that back when Hayate was breakdancing over Mirage during training but they dropped all of that.

[no3Ljm]

Unfortunately, the logical part of me says that should be the last thing Xaos does.

But, the logical part of me says that Bandai will approve the new Valk.

Since many of you are homesick for some Dogfighting!

*snip*

Thanks for this, sir. But you know what, for some reasons, they do 'more' in terms of actions scenes during the 2D days than the 3D days.

I'm not as offended as others with Delta but they do sorely need some dogfights like that Max and Milia one. it seemed like there was so much potential for that back when Hayate was breakdancing over Mirage during training but they dropped all of that.

I agree.

Edited August 23, 2016 by no3ljm

[Zinjo]

That is the original SDF-1 Macross with the Prometheus and Daedalus. As far as we know Ernest is a merc not NUNS that once was an instructor and military advisor to the Windermerean government before he got transferred just before the independence war.

Maybe he was a fanboy of the TV series "The MInmay FiIes" and that is his Hasegawa Kit from that show

[Strumvogel]

I'm not as offended as others with Delta but they do sorely need some dogfights like that Max and Milia one. it seemed like there was so much potential for that back when Hayate was breakdancing over Mirage during training but they dropped all of that.

My only issue with the dogfights, other that there seem to be ever diminishing number of them in the show, is that they needed to slow it down a little so we can follow it better. So far they only did that two or three times and one of them was in the mentioned training.

All the other times you had to slow the show down to see what's happening.

[Seto Kaiba]

Harsh!

But... probably fair.

Yeah, and it sucks to have to say it... so many of the characters in this series are shallow stock characters that it quickly becomes impossible to care what happens to most of them. It was easy to care about the characters in Frontier because they were involved and they were very well-developed over the course of the series. Much of Delta's cast could be summed up in so few words you could print their bio on a fortune cookie slip and still have room leftover for lucky numbers. It's really hard to take their personal drama seriously as the only thing separating them from being "Background Girl A" is possession of a name.

Since many of you are homesick for some Dogfighting!

Macross Delta really is weak tea for a Macross show when it comes to the aerial combat... Frontier didn't skimp on the aerial acrobatics in dogfightig, and it sure as hell didn't skimp on the use of the transformation system. In a lot of ways, it was like the Macross Plus OVA.

Most of Delta's dogfights could be mistaken for a far-future sequel to Yukikaze or Area 88. With a few judicious cuts, you could pass the VF-31 off as an ordinary aerospace fighter.

[505thAirborne]

Spoilers if you've not seen Macross Plus yet... shame on you really.

One of the great examples of a High Octane Dogfight without everything moving at the speed of light!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osEBCVJ-i_Q

[no3Ljm]

Spoilers if you've not seen Macross Plus yet... shame on you really.

One of the great examples of a High Octane Dogfight without everything moving at the speed of light!

*snip*

Like I said, they do more during the 2D days.

[seti88]

I just posted in the music thread but hey if we are on the topic abt dogfighting...dont forget M0!

M0 had some of the best valk scenes involving CGI.

I had half hopes delta would live up to that, lets hope its in the remaining episodes...I understand delta being a TV series might not have the same budget, but if they are gonna put all valk action into a few episodes, at least ramp it up a bit! Less scissoring more erm battroid-ing or gerwalking?

Edited August 24, 2016 by seti88

[Mommar]

My only issue with the dogfights, other that there seem to be ever diminishing number of them in the show, is that they needed to slow it down a little so we can follow it better. So far they only did that two or three times and one of them was in the mentioned training.

All the other times you had to slow the show down to see what's happening.

That was actually my complaints with Frontier as well. The last time they got it right was Zero, since then it's either been sped up so fast you can't see anything... or Delta.

Actually, that video Seti posted really highlights what they COULD have done right with Delta but didn't. It's really an issue of framing. They could easily have had the camera moving with the fighters as they scissored around each other and it would have been pretty adrenaline fueled. Instead we got zig-zagging dots in the distance and the few times they're in close there's no sense of proximity. The second half not having as much Mech action doesn't bother me, but the first few episodes promised us an extremely gifted Battroid user, Hayates initial introduction was pulling off impossible moves in that workroid AND then taking a 171 and breakdance dodging bullet fire with it, and they squandered every last bit of that.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Mommar

[azrael]

... but the first few episodes promised us an extremely gifted Battroid user, Hayates initial introduction was pulling off impossible moves in that workroid AND then taking a 171 and breakdance dodging bullet fire with it, and they squandered every last bit of that.

Yes...What ever did happen to that dancing Battroid pilot who got shot out of the sky? There was so much potential there...

[Ghostbear0]

That breackdance, and Mirage's call catch into gunslinginf are still the best bits of mecha action in the series challenged only by the episode 6 asteroid fight.

[UN Spacy]

SUBS ARE OUT!

[charles88]

Be patients LOTS of you, Even Frontier have that phase in ep 18-22, so BE PATIENT BEFORE YOU JUMP THE GUN. At least we get to see origin of Walkure instead of left it unknown.

[RedWolf]

Several references to Macross Frontier with Windermere having super Fold drives and Berger theorizing that Roid may be aiming for a hivemind collective. Seems like years after the Vajra war the effect of Macross Galaxy can be felt.

On another note Kaname comes from a civil war torn planet called Divide. Who the hell names ther planet that? It is asking for a civil war. In any case it shows all is not perfect in the NUN as before decentralization Anti-UN groups particular Zentradi have insurgencies as seen on Macross Plus with Isamu's record and the reason why AVF program came to be,not to mention worlds like Kasshubu where the military split into Pro-Lactence UN Spacy and NUNS. Black market corporations like Critical Path, Loshier Company and Epsilon Foundation isn't helping as to them war is good for business.

Mikumo may be a genetic clone of a Protoculture Star Singer. For all of Roid's pride on Windermerean superiority it hasn't occurred to him that maybe his race is a failed experiment.

[azrael]

...At least we get to see origin of Walkure instead of left it unknown.

That doesn't help the story as we near the end of the series. If we didn't have patience, none of us would be here now. The issue we have is much of what has taken place over these recent episodes could have been spread out into the previous episodes. Instead of feeding this information from episode to episode, the info is dumped on us all at once. As we near the end, the focus should be the ending, not an info dump at the end.

For all of Roid's pride on Windermerean superiority it hasn't occurred to him that maybe his race is a failed experiment.

Protoculture were a bunch of dicks. And the universe keeps spinning.

[Zinjo]

Well we got a few reveals in this episode. Roid killed the king; suspicions realized. Mikumo is an engineered clone, designed to fight the var, which speaks a lot about the future need to recruit singers after this. I suspect the Windermerans were engineered for the same purpose but over time they lost the ability to be Star Singers. The Wind Singer's song is killing Heinz, we saw that coming too. The implication that Roid is continuing Grace and Galaxy's work on the "human network" of mind control, interesting. Roid's and Epsilon's end game still unclear.

As for character development, there were several "moments' that really weren't capitalized on. Kaname and Messer was one that immediately comes to mind. For a short series, drawing out the triangle between Hayate, Frejya and Mirage was a poor choice. Hinting at Mirage's self doubt but never really showcasing it more was another mistake.

It seems like they are missing the focus of this story and are instead throwing too much at the wall, I like the universe building, but sometimes too much can be a distraction to the principle point of any story. What message are you trying to convey? That is fairly obscure at this point. Using mystery as a plot device only works for so long before you have to reveal things. The best method is the Abrams described method of ending one mystery at the same time you introduce a new one. Delta is carrying too many mysteries for too long, holding the story back.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

That doesn't help the story as we near the end of the series.

To your assertion, what was the point of learning the history of Walkure? So we'd care about the characters more? Didn't really seam to work for me. Just a history lesson about how they came together that could have been covered in the manga for those who wanted to know. This didn't advance the story and seemed very much like a filler episode, animated to give the CG team more time to create the imminent battle sequences yet to come.

They could have used this episode for any number of side stories. Stories like the attraction between Kaname and Messer or the growing triangle with Arad and perhaps the implied competition between the two for Kaname's affections. Maybe some more hints at Roid and Keith's relationship or a visual hint that Lady M was closer than we thought. Relevant insights into the characters that would draw us into caring for them.

Messer's death was akin to Michael's death in Frontier, but in several ways handled much better to tug at our hearts. Then that hook was allowed to slip away in favor of narratives complete with talking heads for 3 episodes after an obligatory battle episode.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Zinjo

[grigolosi]

Well I can think of other sci fi races that were far bigger dicks. The PC biggest issue was their pride and arrogance. But they still found value in life and attempted to foster it. In the end they realized this but it was too late at that point. All they could do was propagate new species using their own own genes just to ensure some part of them lived on. Their irresponsibility in marking sealed tech and sites as "dangerous don't open this in the name of all that is holy" doesn't help them definitely. In my book the prize for the biggest dickhead species in sci fi would go to the Halo Forerunners, now they were dicks.

Roid though seems to be falling right in the footsteps of the PC. His idiotic pride and arrogance is going to lead to f'ing up the galaxy in a big way. So maybe they are the inheritors of the PC. Then he has lit the bulb in Bergers mind now. That weasel is plotting something.

The next episode looks like an info dump again or discuss your feelings episode. I definitely feel that the end is going to be rushed if we are looking at 27 episodes.

[grigolosi]

That doesn't help the story as we near the end of the series. If we didn't have patience, none of us would be here now. The issue we have is much of what has taken place over these recent episodes could have been spread out into the previous episodes. Instead of feeding this information from episode to episode, the info is dumped on us all at once. As we near the end, the focus should be the ending, not an info dump at the end.

Protoculture were a bunch of dicks. And the universe keeps spinning.

I can think of few other races in sci fi that were far bigger dicks. The PC were arrogant and prideful which was one of the reasons for their eventual demise. But they learned enough to attempt to propagate new species that they probably hoped would turn out better than them. Unfortunately the uncontrolled Zentraedi and SA forces fighting would tarnish that attempt along with the unmarked sealed sites and tech without even so much of a sign such as" don't open or use in the name of that is holy, if you do you will die, everyone around you will die and the galaxy will die".

Zinjo is right though at least they confirmed what most of us susp[ected about Roid. But Berger's and Epsilon's scheme is still unclear. Unfortunately the next episode looks like either another info dump or talk about your feelings episode. I definitely believe what was stated in earlier episode threads is going to happen. They are going to rush the ending due to these backstory episodes being thrown in.

[Ghostbear0]

Why did Roid kill the king he was already dying he was injured the risks associated with your offing him far outweigh the risks of his dying a slightly more protracted death upsetting Heinz. More importantly why in the holy he'll did Kieth not settal this now!! Mind I have a sleeping suspicion that Gramia's actual last plans might have been more genocidal than Roid wants and that's what he's changing.... But that's probably just me wanting something more interesting.

There were so many information bombs dropped in this episode but I thought they all fell completely flat. Please tell me it's just me.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

I'm still stuck at episode 19. I've tried to watch it like 4 times now between 10/11 pm and I always fall asleep at the 15 minute mark. So boring!!!

Seriously, is it that hard to produce a series where each episode has a plot with character and story development and 3 or 4 minutes full of mecha action out of 24 f@cking minutes!!!

I really wanted to like this show but I don't think that the five remaining episodes will do it for me.

[Roy Focker]

Watched it with the subs.

Going to have to give it a Negative vote. There's a major problem this origin episode and it isn't just that it should have been told earlier in the series. The problem is who are they telling this story of their past to?

If Freyja was arrested with them she could be their audience. Instead the 3 of them are all the story tellers of a story they all know? Parents will tell their children about they first met and fell in love. They (Parents) don't sit together and narrative something like this to each other. When you think about it the origin story wasn't even needed. We've already been told a lot of this information. In this episode Hayate, Freyja and Mirage didn't even appear. Are they not the main characters? Okay maybe they didn't have them appear because this was a Walkure episode but couldn't at least Freyja show up? She's part of the band. She could have visit them in space jail and that's when they tell Freyja the origin story of Walkure. That's when it would have made sense. You know when there's someone to tell the origin story to who didn't live through it themselves.

[squaresphere]

Finally watched the sub ep. It wasn't nearly as bad as the thread made it out to be. Honestly it's only flaw is that it ocurred so late in the cour.

The more i see of Delta the more like 7 in excecution it feels. Theres a lot of poor editing choices and story boarding that hurts the over all execution. I think the series could flow together much better with a fan edit to reogranize the various scenes and spread out the action.

So for the only spoiler worth talking about, Mikumo being a possible clone of the Star Singer. Man to me that's pretty damn close to the spirit of what I hypothized the Proto Culture might have been aiming for with the Windemere.

ie. Windemere physiology combined with the cloning and training tech used on the Zentradi would produce a superior military that would have combated the Supervision Army and their Protodevlin masters.

In Mikumo's case they cloned (is she for sure a clone? There was a line about her getting fold receptors into her cells) her to an adult state, gave her basic training for speech and performance coming out of the tube.

From the scenes last week we know there were tons of other tubes as well, so does that mean we might have other clones running around?

Edited August 24, 2016 by squaresphere

[Ghostbear0]

I think your selling 7 ahort. For all it dragged and whenr on tangents the story always had a sence of progress. Even if some of that progress was people getting frustrated at their lack of progress. The filler in 7 was little self contained stories of the misadventures of Fire Bomber as a band not the waffeling off into nothing we're getting here.

This episode had 3 things that should have been huge reveals that left me going "ok. and????...". We had better versions of this backstory already. Kanames somewhat meloncoly answers to Mirage's questions in the Messer ark and the description of Makina and Rienas dislike of each other with the shot of them stairing venomous daggers at each other in stage during the first Voldor infiltration have us 90% of the pertinent information.

The Mikumo drop should have been at the start of the episode on front of everyone and her introduction part if the flashback should have been something shared with the newbies be For tracking her down for the it doesn't change anything your still you part. The flashback wasn't just empty filler it seriously hurt the pacing and impact of the actual story told in this episode. Of you noticed a tone shift in this post this episode is pissing me off more and more as I think about it.

Edit Adendem And I'm not blinded by nastalga goggels on 7 I always found it outputting and didn't actually watch it through untill I was told it would be helpful in getting in the groove for delta. Its was my least favorite untill the second halve of delta turned to porridge.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Ghostbear0

[RedWolf]

I'm with Mikumo. Don't make a big deal about it as the majority of Earth descent are from clones both Terran and Zentradi.

Walkure's concern may stem from cultural taboo of creating intelligent life as weapons. The Protoculture created the Zentradi as biological robots for their proxy wars. There may be moral dilemmas of creating a clone for war like in the case of Moaramia "Jifon" Fallyna Jenius who was an experimental body by a UN Forces reactionary power. There is also the Sharon Apple incident where the effect is military use of sentient or sapient AI are forbidden. Macross Galaxy conspiracy didn't help as they are a AI hivemind that used Ghost as well. However there are non military AI which are fine like El a Cyberdroid on Macross 29 in Macross Musiculture. Colonel Burton with his co-conspirator Dr. Sazapi created an Evil Series from cells either left behind by the Protodevlin or the Protoculture ruins on Varauta's 4th planet.

[azrael]

To your assertion, what was the point of learning the history of Walkure? So we'd care about the characters more? Didn't really seam to work for me. Just a history lesson about how they came together that could have been covered in the manga for those who wanted to know.

This could have been done earlier or as Roy suggested, Frejya could have been there to represent us, the audience. To take Roy's analogy, the 3 reminiscing is like the mother and father saying "Remember when you ... Oh yeah." If Frejya was there, it would feel more like a "How I Met Your Mother/Father" story. At this point in the series, this history lesson does not change my like/hate for Walkure. It does nothing to advance the story. It could have been done earlier. My question to this episode isn't "What is the point of learning Walkure's history?", it's "What is the point of learning Walkure's history THIS late in the game? ".

They could have used this episode for any number of side stories. Stories like the attraction between Kaname and Messer or the growing triangle with Arad and perhaps the implied competition between the two for Kaname's affections. Maybe some more hints at Roid and Keith's relationship or a visual hint that Lady M was closer than we thought. Relevant insights into the characters that would draw us into caring for them.

I'd wish they fleshed out Kaname/Messer/Arad back when Messer died. To call back to them now, even if it was briefly, just felt a bit awkward.

The more i see of Delta the more like 7 in excecution it feels. Theres a lot of poor editing choices and story boarding that hurts the over all execution. I think the series could flow together much better with a fan edit to reogranize the various scenes and spread out the action.

7 had the advantage of more episodes and could spread itself out more where Fire Bomber's rise to fame could be chronicled from being nobodies to somebody. Here, Walkure is already famous.

The issue we come back to is pacing. Especially now as we're coming to the end of this series.

[Zinjo]

So for the only spoiler worth talking about, Mikumo being a possible clone of the Star Singer. Man to me that's pretty damn close to the spirit of what I hypothized the Proto Culture might have been aiming for with the Windemere.

So far, there is no evidence Mikumo is a clone of the Star Singer, only fan expectations. I expect her creation will become similar to how the PC created the Windermere and their Star Singer. Which would yet again further postulate the notion that humanity are somehow the inheritors of the PC mantle.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Since Mikumo is a clone, who is she cloned from? I am beginning to revisit the notion she could be a Myung clone and Lady M is actually Myung.

The narrated history of song research dates back to the Great Space War, but I do not recall any mention that Lady M was involved with the project back then. If that is indeed the case, then Myung could very well end up being Lady M.

She was actively involved with the Sharon Apple research and provided the "soul" of the artificial idol to the audience. It is not really that great of a leap that she would refocus her efforts toward Song research and the Fold Song phenomena (perhaps even linking her to Dr. Chiba from M7). Without Myung, Sharon Apple had little emotional impact on the audience. Now consider how Mikumo was able to quickly reach the emotions of the Walkure team at the beginning.

Makes a person go, hmmmm.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

Watched it with the subs.

Going to have to give it a Negative vote. There's a major problem this origin episode and it isn't just that it should have been told earlier in the series. The problem is who are they telling this story of their past to?

If Freyja was arrested with them she could be their audience. Instead the 3 of them are all the story tellers of a story they all know? Parents will tell their children about they first met and fell in love. They (Parents) don't sit together and narrative something like this to each other. When you think about it the origin story wasn't even needed. We've already been told a lot of this information. In this episode Hayate, Freyja and Mirage didn't even appear. Are they not the main characters? Okay maybe they didn't have them appear because this was a Walkure episode but couldn't at least Freyja show up? She's part of the band. She could have visit them in space jail and that's when they tell Freyja the origin story of Walkure. That's when it would have made sense. You know when there's someone to tell the origin story to who didn't live through it themselves.

Just offscreen, there is a very bored security guard they're telling all this to... and no doubt he's wishing they'd skip ahead to something more exciting like the group bonding over a lingerie pillow fight.

Why did Roid kill the king he was already dying he was injured the risks associated with your offing him far outweigh the risks of his dying a slightly more protracted death upsetting Heinz. More importantly why in the holy he'll did Kieth not settal this now!! Mind I have a sleeping suspicion that Gramia's actual last plans might have been more genocidal than Roid wants and that's what he's changing.... But that's probably just me wanting something more interesting.

There were so many information bombs dropped in this episode but I thought they all fell completely flat. Please tell me it's just me.

Because Roid has a great big boner for the idea of Windermere's manifest destiny to rule the galaxy as the heirs to the Protoculture... never mind that it's complete malarkey, and that the Protoculture were such massive dicks that the best they could do was leave warnings behind saying "We totally screwed up the known universe. Sorry 'bout that. We hope you won't repeat our mistake."

Gramia only wanted to establish the Starwind Sector by liberating the Brisingr cluster from the New UN Government and end it there. Smart money says Roid whacked him because he's obsessed with his belief that Windermere is destined to rule the universe because of their imagined manifest destiny as the Protoculture's appointed heirs.

Finally watched the sub ep. It wasn't nearly as bad as the thread made it out to be. Honestly it's only flaw is that it ocurred so late in the cour.

The more i see of Delta the more like 7 in excecution it feels. Theres a lot of poor editing choices and story boarding that hurts the over all execution. I think the series could flow together much better with a fan edit to reogranize the various scenes and spread out the action.

Nah, Macross 7 did all of its time-wasting up front with its glacially slow, 20+ episode run-up to the actual plot. Once it got going, it was narratively fairly tight and flowed well.

Macross Delta got to episode 13, then slowed to a crawl and completely forgot there was a war on.

This could have been done earlier or as Roy suggested, Frejya could have been there to represent us, the audience. To take Roy's analogy, the 3 reminiscing is like the mother and father saying "Remember when you ... Oh yeah." If Frejya was there, it would feel more like a "How I Met Your Mother/Father" story.

... I saw this, and all I can think of is Arad (or perhaps Messer) waxing poetic about the bro code... which would've been a lot more amusing.

[RedWolf]

The narrated history of song research dates back to the Great Space War, but I do not recall any mention that Lady M was involved with the project back then. If that is indeed the case, then Myung could very well end up being Lady M.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.org/MCRhistory/Zero02bStruggleForTheBirdman.php

Down: Mao Nome

[F] Dr. Mao engaged in research that was concerned with such things as alien biology and songs, and she also participated in the 117th Investigation Fleet. Dr. Chiba studied under her.

My theory is that it was Mao Nome that started Project M. Lady M may be a pseudonym for Project M.

[ayaxr]

I had a glimpse of hope at episode 13 as to the direction of the story, I'll be honest I wasnt thrilled but that episode lit a very small fire.. Everything seemed to be cranked up to 11, while I didn't expect nor want all episodes to be that way from there on, I was hoping it would set the tone and scale of the war for episodes to come. I expected great space battles once they were forced to leave the planet and such, alas it never materialized and so far there has only been one space dogfight that was worth anything.....

What is going on with the pacing? Origin story at episode 21 is completely out of place... Unless there's a crazy plot to make this 2 seasons, cause otherwise there's no way to end this in 5 episodes and have it be even somewhat decent.

Edited August 24, 2016 by ayaxr

[Ghostbear0]

I had a glimpse of hope at episode 13 as to the direction of the story, I'll be honest I wasnt thrilled but that episode lit a very small fire.. Everything seemed to be cranked up to 11, while I didn't expect nor want all episodes to be that way from there on, I was hoping it would set the tone and scale of the war for episodes to come. I expected great space battles once they were forced to leave the planet and such, alas it never materialized and so far there has only been one space dogfight that was worth anything.....

What is going on with the pacing? Origin story at episode 21 is completely out of place... Unless there's a crazy plot to make this 2 seasons, cause otherwise there's no way to end this in 5 episodes and have it be even somewhat decent.

I've got it the climax of episode 26 will be 3 way musical dual between Mikumo, Heinz, and a kidnapped and brainwashed by Burger Freyja will create an unpresidently large fold bubble that drags forth the Megaroad 1 fleet and the Supervision Army armada they are locked in combat with setting the tone for seson two. Yeah that's what I'm going to keep telling myself anyway.

[Zinjo]

Lady M.png

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.org/MCRhistory/Zero02bStruggleForTheBirdman.php

My theory is that it was Mao Nome that started Project M. Lady M may be a pseudonym for Project M.

Equally plausible.

Though Lady M is a person who the Xaos leadership apparently have met, not a "project".

What is going on with the pacing? Origin story at episode 21 is completely out of place... Unless there's a crazy plot to make this 2 seasons, cause otherwise there's no way to end this in 5 episodes and have it be even somewhat decent.

I would me more concerned about a Deus Ex Machina ending at this point, but we'll have to see.

[Marzan]

Be patients LOTS of you, Even Frontier have that phase in ep 18-22, so BE PATIENT BEFORE YOU JUMP THE GUN. At least we get to see origin of Walkure instead of left it unknown.

Macross Frontier's episodes 18-22 seem like rare impressive masterpieces compared to what Delta is delivering now.

In order not be disapointed next episode, I've decided to spice things up. I'll open up a beer at episodes start. Every time someone says the words "wind" or "sing" I'll have a sip. That should be fun.