Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 19 - READ 1st POST

[grigolosi]

It sounded like another in universe show or series. She called it The Lynn Minmay Chronicles. Probably nothing to do with that movie that Basara and Mylene were in.

[Roy Focker]

I'm the first person to give it a negative vote. This episode started off bad when it announced with still images what happen right after the episode 18. Why couldn't they animate those events as the first half of episode 19? I guess the musical number in episode 18 was so confusing they need to use nearly all of episode 19 to explain it. Really they could have explained things and give an entire series recap in less time. The entire story time doesn't really count as animation. The animation of the present day was low quality. Yeah I kind of enjoyed the nod to earlier series and that they are finally telling us what's going on but have they ran out of money to animate this series?

Even if you're someone like me who isn't all that interested in the where direction of this franchise went at least there was hope that we'd still get to some good animation. We can't even get that.

[RedWolf]

It sounded like another in universe show or series. She called it The Lynn Minmay Chronicles. Probably nothing to do with that movie that Basara and Mylene were in.

Lynn Minmay Monogatari was mentioned in Macross 7 and Macross 7 The Galaxy is Calling Me. Its the movie DYRL.

Macross Frontier had a tv series called Triangular which features the triangle romance.

Edited August 9, 2016 by RedWolf

[Valkyrie addict]

How many episodes is this series gonna be?

I'm pretty much just watching it cause it's Macross, but lost interest a long time ago...

[d3v]

Wasn't sure about having having an exposition episode so soon after we just got back into the action. That said, there were a few things that swayed me, the main thing being that the exposition was primarily being delivered by the shady Epsilon guy, which means that there was a level of tension during the whole conversation. Additionally, the more important bits he doesn't outright spell out, just stating them to be "rumours" (regarding Mikumo). That said, there were things that could have been done better - the jumps to the Keith and Roid for one threatened to suck the tension out (since there wasn't any in those scenes).

[azrael]

I would have split this episode in 2 parts (with 1 part coming earlier in the series) or divided bits in this episode throughout the series. And that came from my quick-viewing. I probably won't get to my sit-down viewing till later. It would have been better if we got some more time with Mirage and Chuck. Mirage is seriously in friend-zone at this point.

[dreamweaver13]

The nostalgia episode, full blast. Even half expected Berger to suddenly come out and say, "when we found Megaroad 1...."

Gave me goosebumps, this episode. I can never have enough of Macross/SW1 references; and the way they treat it as legend warms my heart, because it's almost the same level of deference I have.

So...

1. Mikumo is a clone or an android? Most likely the former.

2. For all intents and purposes, the DYRL storyline is the one that seems to be historically accurate, with the reference to the Protoculture song and the alien structure. So yeah, maybe SDFM is the "drama series" they're referring to this time around.Whatever, in my mind both of the happened exactly how they did.

3. The more Roid talks about being the true heir of protoculture with his smug look, the more I want to cram it down his throat. He knows the legend, the accomplishments of humanity, the "defeat" of the Vajra, and all he has to say is, "well, we have fold quarts. it's gotta be us, right?" Jeezus Christ, give this guy a huge dose of wake up juice, coz he's still dreaming.

4. I'm still worried about where this series is going, 19 episodes in. And i'm nowhere near as invested in this one as I was Frontier. Not a chance in hell i'll stop watching though, so who am I kidding?

[trojan_gambit]

-When the lights dim out, then Berger said "Singing is the ultimate weapon", then the spot lights coming on. I thought he was going to cast away his robe & sing. LoL.

-Who is this Star Singer mentioned by Roid ?

[Seto Kaiba]

So... Lady M is....

Unknown. My personal favorite irrational guess is Messer or Dr. Chiba in drag... though it's likely she's a minor character or Lady Not Appearing In This Film from a previous Macross title.

Is Miho Global dead? There's another possibility.

Was the show Reina was talking about the same one that Basara and Mylene took part in?

It sounded like another in universe show or series. She called it The Lynn Minmay Chronicles. Probably nothing to do with that movie that Basara and Mylene were in.

Yes, the show Reina was talking about is, in all likelihood, the one filmed in Macross 7 with Basara and Mylene. The title's the same.

Lynn Minmay Monogatari was mentioned in Macross 7 and Macross 7 The Galaxy is Calling Me. Its the movie DYRL.Macross Frontier had a tv series called Triangular which features the triangle romance.

Incorrect.

The Lynn Minmay Story is the made-for-TV movie that Basara and Mylene were involved in filming in 2045 in the Macross 7 series.

The in-universe version of DYRL that came out in 2031 was titled Do You Remember Love?.

(See Macross Chronicle Worldguide 27A.)

[kalvasflam]

Heh, this episode was not bad at all. It advances the story along certainly. We are given to think that Delta is giving us a peek at the story behind this whole situation. Interesting theory these guys have, but I wonder how much evidence they really have on this. And one has to wonder how is it that Berger has all this information, and why he is sharing it with everyone. It's not obvious that Roid came to this information on his own.

Android Mikumo, I like that idea.. it's like they put in Sharon Apple style AI in a biological body... who happens to like streaking.

The best part had to be Reina's comments inserted throughout the story, as she calls Berger a stalker, creepy, etc.... she should've just kept on going with the one word comments, succinct and to the point. No wonder Bogue is in awe of her.

Again, the Delta team seem to be acting on emotions, specifically they kicked out Berger who might be a potential source of information to them. I wonder what the doctor was trying to say about the king... heh heh, he probably said it to the wrong person, wouldn't surprise me if Keith was involved with Roid in offing the old man.

I'm not sure if the evil corporation thing applies to Berger, he might be just like Burk in Aliens, someone who does the dirty work and can be disavowed... wonder if "lady M" is a part of Epsilon corp.

But when you add it all up, the problem is still the same. Windermere needs to be fold bombed to eliminate the threat to NUNS. Sure, Var will still exist, but may be it can be contained. Although I have to say I still like Sheryl best if all of these singers are just weapons as Berger claimed.

Edited August 9, 2016 by kalvasflam

[cwmodels]

I'm seriously wondering if they can wrap everything up in the remaining 7 episodes. Here's hoping that we get a second season with more mecha action.

As I've said before, I hope we get a season 2 of this with budget for more mecha combat.

Seems 7 episodes is gonna be a bit tight to tie up everything, unless we get a really rushed ending.

And more time really needs to be spent of developing some of the supporting characters as well. Chuck, Arad and Mirage have hardly had any screen time recently. Feels like we hardly know them.

After this episode I am almost certain they'll wrap it all up by Episode 26. A massive info dump like this is usually to get as much story/explanation as they can outta the way, so they can "move forward". The strange part is that Shoji pretty much gave all of this away in one of his recent interviews so there was almost nothing new to me. The only thing I found interesting in this episode is that the Windermeres have build in fold receptors.

Did this info dump really deserve 90% of the episode? There's only 7 episodes left in the series, and poor Mirage's character development still only focuses on Hayate. Give her some more things to things to do already! I want to see her improving her piloting and be in dog flights. Or maybe even research her family's involvement in major events in the Macross series to she can try to figure out what she should be doing with her life.

Like, I'm grateful she actually got some focus this episode, but she's still so far behind in character development compared to the other main characters like Hayate and Freya.

An info dump like this is actually consider bad writing because it shows that they have no clever ways to integrate all the necessary information piece by piece into the natural flow of the story. And is that Berger guy really necessary to show up and tell us everything in such straightforward manner? They could've easy structured this episode with the Walkurie members feeling suspicious about the events from last episode (especially with Arad and Kagame's conversation regarding hiding secrets) and have Reina & Makina do some hacking and espionage to find out all of this within Chaos. Everybody could've played a part in it without having to just stand around listening to some theory! Did they forget that all these girls have exceptional abilities? Character development can be done without the need of shady guy showing up and hogging up all the scenes. You have so many characters in the show already SO USE THEM in a fun or interesting way instead of shoving them aside for someone that the audience generally don't give a rats ass about.

I'm the first person to give it a negative vote. This episode started off bad when it announced with still images what happen right after the episode 18. Why couldn't they animate those events as the first half of episode 19? I guess the musical number in episode 18 was so confusing they need to use nearly all of episode 19 to explain it. Really they could have explained things and give an entire series recap in less time. The entire story time doesn't really count as animation. The animation of the present day was low quality. Yeah I kind of enjoyed the nod to earlier series and that they are finally telling us what's going on but have they ran out of money to animate this series?

Even if you're someone like me who isn't all that interested in the where direction of this franchise went at least there was hope that we'd still get to some good animation. We can't even get that.

Having grown up with cheap production, poorly animated TV anime as a kids, I generally find that most anime today is still visually far ahead of shows back before 2000. So stuff like still animation or poor animation quality don't really bother me. But what ticks me off is the outdated way of storytelling directions, anime cliches, and dialogues and they still employ for this show. Characters act and say things on cue like they have no idea how to move and develop them forward in a more believable sense.

Have you ever seen Maico 2010? That anime had no budget, was 15 minutes per episode, and was stuck inside a radio broadcast office the entire series but was exceptional in character development and good dialogues. Every character had a distinctive personality, up and down journey arc, unexpected twist and satisfying ending.

1. Mikumo is a clone or an android? Most likely the former.

She's really Hatsune Miku!

-When the lights dim out, then Berger said "Singing is the ultimate weapon", then the spot lights coming on. I thought he was going to cast away his robe & sing. LoL.

-Who is this Star Singer mentioned by Roid ?

That would actually be an awesome twist! And then we find out Berger is also the Star Singer!

But as predictions goes it's probably gonna be either Mikumo or Freyja.

[kalvasflam]

That would actually be an awesome twist! And then we find out Berger is also the Star Singer!

But as predictions goes it's probably gonna be either Mikumo or Freyja.

would be even funnier if it turned out Berger was Basara in disguise, he sings, and then lectures Mirage on not knowing about the family history...

[azrael]

An info dump like this is actually consider bad writing because it shows that they have no clever ways to integrate all the necessary information piece by piece into the natural flow of the story. And is that Berger guy really necessary to show up and tell us everything in such straightforward manner? They could've easy structured this episode with the Walkurie members feeling suspicious about the events from last episode (especially with Arad and Kagame's conversation regarding hiding secrets) and have Reina & Makina do some hacking and espionage to find out all of this within Chaos. Everybody could've played a part in it without having to just stand around listening to some theory! Did they forget that all these girls have exceptional abilities? Character development can be done without the need of shady guy showing up and hogging up all the scenes. You have so many characters in the show already SO USE THEM in a fun or interesting way instead of shoving them aside for someone that the audience generally don't give a rats ass about.

This. Instead of 1 info dump episode, it would have been better with info being sprinkled throughout the past 19 episodes with episode 19 being the "AHA"-episode.

[Zinjo]

I think it is pretty much Earther's are awesome because they can do stuff that the Protoculture can't. Earthers made the Zentradi integrate as they hoped. Earthers solved the Protodevlins' problem. Earther made contact with the Vajra.

I'm theorizing that Zolans are immune to the Var syndrome given they are always around Galactic Whales. Apparently there is a connection between bacteria on their planet and Galactic Whales. They also have a form of telepathy with their Catsnakes. Galactic Whales like Vajra can Fold by themselves.

Yeah that has been a pet peeve of mine in Macross. Terrans are becoming the "chosen ones" as opposed to very clever "children" of the PC.

I suspect the PC studied, admired, respected and even emulated the Vajra, but never successfully communicated with them like Ranka did. She appears to be an unexpected fluke who was able to bridge that gap.

I am still not sure how M7 managed to solve the PD problem. Perhaps it is because i haven 't seen the show in so long, but teaching the PD to sing for themselves seems rather simplistic considering the PC had an Anima Spiritia army of sorts doing the same thing as Fire Bomber did.

As for the Zentradi and humans integrating, it seems the PC "hoped" some of their children would be able to accomplish this. Humanity happened to be the first (though the price was pretty high).

It would be nice to see humanity dealing with a Supervision Army fleet and find a little humility in the universe (though I like to believe the SA are post-mind controlled PC who are ardently trying to stay alive amidst the Zentradi genocide).

Edited August 9, 2016 by Zinjo

[Marzan]

So the huge nostalgia-info dump basically serves to propel us into the final arcs of this series. Have to agree with those who are a bit disappointed about the subpar writing for much of this series. I love little bits and pieces here and there, but I'm not getting a compelling story that I can submerge myself into.

The identity of Lady M is the last mistery left. We know she's an old timer since she's been around since the first Space War so let's see what Kawamori surprises us with.

[squaresphere]

You know there's some facts that weren't mention which makes me believe Epsilon and Roid don't understand they're playing with fire.

1. For the M7 flash back, they do not mention the Protodevilin by name. Naming them would have been a huge indicator they know the full extent and history of the PC's fall and the creation of the Zentradi.
2. They speculate that the PC made the ultimate weapon in the form of biological androids... Ok this is where they're right and wrong. We know all about the EVIL series BUT they never sang... as far as we know

What this leads me to believe is Mikumo might be an actual EVIL series model but possibly with a blocked link to super dimensional power which kept her from being possessed by the Protodevilin.

I am still not sure how M7 managed to solve the PD problem. Perhaps it is because i haven 't seen the show in so long, but teaching the PD to sing for themselves seems rather simplistic considering the PC had an Anima Spiritia army of sorts doing the same thing as Fire Bomber did.

My take on this is that the PD learning to sing probably allows them to convert their super dimensional energy into spirita.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm not sure if the evil corporation thing applies to Berger, he might be just like Burk in Aliens, someone who does the dirty work and can be disavowed... wonder if "lady M" is a part of Epsilon corp.

But when you add it all up, the problem is still the same. Windermere needs to be fold bombed to eliminate the threat to NUNS. Sure, Var will still exist, but may be it can be contained. Although I have to say I still like Sheryl best if all of these singers are just weapons as Berger claimed.

You have to take Berger Stone's views with a pinch of salt... the man's a defense contractor, and when you're peddling nails everything starts to look like a hammer.

As for fold-bombing Windermere... that's not Kawamori's style to end a conflict without that "Let's all hold hands and sing Rainbow Connection" routine, in which they reveal the enemy's misguided rather than evil. Roid or Keith is probably gonna snuff it and the other will see the error of their ways and save Windermere from itself.

Yeah that has been a pet peeve of mine in Macross. Terrans are becoming the "chosen ones" as opposed to very clever "children" of the PC.

I'm not sure that's actually the case... though Roid certainly seems to believe that humanity (wrongly) believes itself to be the appointed heirs to the Protoculture.

There isn't really anything to say that one of the other sub-Protoculture species out in the galaxy couldn't have done most of the things humans have done. In fact, if Delta is a fair indication the Windermereans could probably have done most of the same stuff with their wind singers around. Humanity was just (un)lucky enough to get an entirely accidental leg-up on their technological advancement by having a motherlode of functional overtechnology quite literally fall out of the sky... which they were almost destroyed for. They're the ones that were farthest-along in their development, so they're the ones best-equipped to handle all of these crises.

Humanity seems to accomplish all this stuff because they are, for all practical purposes, the eldest of the Protoculture's children and therefore the ones stuck cleaning up all the messes left behind by their irresponsible "parents".

[Zinjo]

Humanity seems to accomplish all this stuff because they are, for all practical purposes, the eldest of the Protoculture's children and therefore the ones stuck cleaning up all the messes left behind by their irresponsible "parents".

Is that really the case? I remember humanity was seeded around 10,000 years ago and then the records were lost during the Civil War (though reading the compendium's chronology page can give you a head ache ). Were the other races after that?

It is possible that humanity could be the last of a PC seeding project (similar to the Earth's) with the Civil War raging and the real risk of the core worlds being destroyed as a result. If the Earth was a seeded world then perhaps humanity could be the closest cousins to pure bred PC.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Zinjo

[azrael]

I'd go with "more matured" than "eldest". It appears most races in the cluster were not space-faring while humans have already left their home solar system. Humanity probably would be only slightly ahead of the curve if ASS-1 didn't happen to fall from the sky. All of the races humanity has visited were gifted with technology beyond their current levels. Perhaps they need to setup a "prime directive" and avoid worlds that are not space-faring yet.

[grigolosi]

I have noticed in several threads where this comes up. In M0 the statement was the Birdman was OVER 10,000 yrs old and that exact date was classified beyond anyone's clearance in the room other than the scientist. Also One statement from Episode 2 by the scientist talking to Aries is indicates human cranial capacity at the time it was dated too was at 1200 cc's. This puts the contact/seeding date at between 200,000-600,000 yrs ago, the middle Pleistocene and at the time dated in the PC calendar for the series. Definitely making us one of the oldest races seeded by the PC like Seto stated. I posted scene captures with the subs just in case also.

Edited August 9, 2016 by grigolosi

[Ghostbear0]

The protoculture doesn't have any heirs or children they left goodies for. They have slaves and playthings they left traps for to stop them becoming threats while the PC were wiping themselves out. The protoculture weren't a wise elder race they were self destructive asshats.

[Zinjo]

I have noticed in several threads where this comes up. In M0 the statement was the Birdman was OVER 10,000 yrs old and that exact date was classified beyond anyone's clearance in the room other than the scientist. Also One statement from Episode 2 by the scientist talking to Aries is indicates human cranial capacity at the time it was dated too was at 1200 cc's. This puts the contact/seeding date at between 200,000-600,000 yrs ago, the middle Pleistocene and at the time dated in the PC calendar for the series. Definitely making us one of the oldest races seeded by the PC like Seto stated. I posted scene captures with the subs just in case also.

So does the Mayan legend of the Birdmen coincide with the AFOS Birdman or is it describing something earlier. I'd have to rewatch that episode to get a better context.

The protoculture doesn't have any heirs or children they left goodies for. They have slaves and playthings they left traps for to stop them becoming threats while the PC were wiping themselves out. The protoculture weren't a wise elder race they were self destructive asshats.

That is one take on it. OR, they are both just like the rest of us...

Edited August 9, 2016 by Zinjo

[Nazareno2012]

I'd go with "more matured" than "eldest". It appears most races in the cluster were not space-faring while humans have already left their home solar system. Humanity probably would be only slightly ahead of the curve if ASS-1 didn't happen to fall from the sky. All of the races humanity has visited were gifted with technology beyond their current levels. Perhaps they need to setup a "prime directive" and avoid worlds that are not space-faring yet.

There is a treaty preventing invasion of inhabited worlds, which became an issue in the Frontier movie regarding the invasion of the Vajra planet.

[Ghostbear0]

So does the Mayan legend of the Birdmen coincide with the AFOS Birdman or is it describing something earlier. I'd have to rewatch that episode to get a better context.

That is one take on it. OR, they are both just like the rest of us...

they were people and all but as a society they wrecked themselves and the most benevolent things that have been passes down are warnings not to be like them.

Also having finally seen the subs Burger shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt he's barely worth trying to sift through the crap.

[grigolosi]

From what I understood in the series it sounds like they coincide. I believe the Mayan islanders were describing the arrival of the protoculture to earth and their manipulation of the genes of the planets most evolved lifeform. They left the Birdman as a monitor to watch us. While the term Birdmen describes the PC who surveyed the planet. I imagine seeing how aggressive Pleistocene earth was they got a little worried about how the new seeded species would turn out. That is my take on it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Is that really the case? I remember humanity was seeded around 10,000 years ago and then the records were lost during the Civil War (though reading the compendium's chronology page can give you a head ache ). Were the other races after that?

You've got the wrong date... it was around 497,000 BCE when the Protoculture started to work on engineering a sub-Protoculture species on ancient Earth. They came back after their whole civilization collapsed, about 10-20,000 BCE, to leave the Birdman behind with orders to kill the species off if humanity started to repeat the Protoculture's mistakes.

Roid, as a researcher into the ancient Protoculture, certainly seemed to think that humanity was one of the older sub-Protoculture species... it's part of his belief that Windermere was the world where the Protoculture seeded their appointed successors, on the belief that their status as the youngest of the created species meant the ones that came before were flawed or unworthy.

The protoculture doesn't have any heirs or children they left goodies for. They have slaves and playthings they left traps for to stop them becoming threats while the PC were wiping themselves out. The protoculture weren't a wise elder race they were self destructive asshats.

For the most part, yeah... the Protoculture were "abusive precursors" who made a big mess and died out, leaving the species they created to pick up the pieces. Humanity and the other sub-Protoculture species were slave races engineered to prepare their worlds for colonization by the Protoculture.

Still, the Birdman and the archive on Lux show that the ancient Protoculture were starting to cotton on to the lesson that they had been massive dicks and at least expressed a wish those species they'd created would learn from their mistakes.

[Zinjo]

From what I understood in the series it sounds like they coincide. I believe the Mayan islanders were describing the arrival of the protoculture to earth and their manipulation of the genes of the planets most evolved lifeform. They left the Birdman as a monitor to watch us. While the term Birdmen describes the PC who surveyed the planet. I imagine seeing how aggressive Pleistocene earth was they got a little worried about how the new seeded species would turn out. That is my take on it.

Then that would be 10,000 yrs not 200,000 yrs

[kalvasflam]

You have to take Berger Stone's views with a pinch of salt... the man's a defense contractor, and when you're peddling nails everything starts to look like a hammer.

As for fold-bombing Windermere... that's not Kawamori's style to end a conflict without that "Let's all hold hands and sing Rainbow Connection" routine, in which they reveal the enemy's misguided rather than evil. Roid or Keith is probably gonna snuff it and the other will see the error of their ways and save Windermere from itself.

That's a true statement if I've ever heard one. I fully anticipate Bogue to see the error of his ways and become a Walkure fan boy, although I do expect at least one of the AK to bite the dust, either Herman or Cassim. I do expect the evil twin brothers to live.

[Zinjo]

That's a true statement if I've ever heard one. I fully anticipate Bogue to see the error of his ways and become a Walkure fan boy, although I do expect at least one of the AK to bite the dust, either Herman or Cassim. I do expect the evil twin brothers to live.

Money on Cassim, because we know he just wants to go home to his son, so the tragedy will be more profound.

[Seto Kaiba]

Money on Cassim, because we know he just wants to go home to his son, so the tragedy will be more profound.

Yeah, the only way he could make himself more doomed would be to be two days from retirement and partner up with a devil-may-care wingman who breaks all the rules.

The man's sent up so many death flags you could mistake him for a ship under sail.

[Zinjo]

Yeah, the only way he could make himself more doomed would be to be two days from retirement and partner up with a devil-may-care wingman who breaks all the rules.

The man's sent up so many death flags you could mistake him for a ship under sail.

The only thing he's missing is a red under shirt...

[RedWolf]

I must say there are holes in Bergers's narrative. He didn't mention the Mayan island incident. Nor had he an idea Myung snapped Isamu out of hypnotism. Much like the rest of the galaxy he doesn't know all the details of what happened on Macross 7.

Both Roid and Berger doesn't seem to suspect Mikumo could be a Protoculture.

[kalvasflam]

The only thing he's missing is a red under shirt...

You know, all of these are reasons why there is a possibility of Cassim living. Because he is just waving so many death flags that he might be confuse the grim reaper into thinking the flag belong to one of the twins or something

[Seto Kaiba]

I must say there are holes in Bergers's narrative. He didn't mention the Mayan island incident. Nor had he an idea Myung snapped Isamu out of hypnotism. Much like the rest of the galaxy he doesn't know all the details of what happened on Macross 7.Both Roid and Berger doesn't seem to suspect Mikumo could be a Protoculture.

It's worth remembering that Berger Stone is not an omniscient narrator, he's a character the same as any other. He's also a civilian, so his knowledge of incidents that the military has either classified or attempted to cover up is probably limited to whatever's in the official military reports that've been declassified or that his security clearance permits him access to. The (New) UN Forces have a habit of covering up details of major threats that could have significant negative PR implications for themselves or the space emigration program, such as the loss of Megaroad-01, their disastrous first contact with the Vajra, or the truth of who dropped the dimension warhead on Windermere. It's also a safe bet they covered up more than just one incident of someone stumbling onto an ancient Protoculture weapon in working order, like the Protodeviln attack on City-7 or the Uroboros incident.

As Berger's little monologue was an effort to establish the credibility of songs as weapons, he may be glossing over the Mayan Island incident since that didn't directly involve a song being used as a weapon in its own right... and I doubt the reason Isamu was able to escape Sharon's hypnosis made its way into the official record.

[TehPW]

The protoculture doesn't have any heirs or children they left goodies for. They have slaves and playthings they left traps for to stop them becoming threats while the PC were wiping themselves out. The protoculture weren't a wise elder race they were self destructive asshats.

So are real life terrans, when you think about it...