Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 18 - READ 1st POST

[This Confuses Gamlin]

Keeping the spoiler tags just because, but I have to ask, am I the only person who looks at the Sigur Valens and is a little unnerved that it looks like a freakishly grinning skull?

That was observed before (possibly also by you), and I do see it, but pareidolia is a strong effect. The face for me loses out to just how much the ship reminds me of the Birdman, and I keep waiting for further payoff from that.

[Raptor One]

Episode was okay. But the end was too much over the top with not enough explanation. I couldn't really connect to it because I had no idea what was happening. At this point I'm liking the character stuff more than the actual Valkyrie combat, since it all comes down to glowing flight paths and lots of yelling. I'm starting to miss Frontier (although Frontier also had its fair share of that).

Hopefully next episode adds some more context to what happened here, and that will make this episode better in hindsight. I think this series is gonna end up benefiting greatly from binge watching

Mikumo sure reminds me of Sivil in this one

Well of course she reminds you of her mom!

With the way Mikumo was zapped at the end of her final solo I'm kinda worried that something very bad just happened to her. Doubly so with the end credits focusing solely on her. I highly doubt it is right, but my first impression was: "Did she just... die?!"

To quote Avatar: I don't know, it was really unclear

Is it just me or do the Windmereans keep moping and crying about having short lifespans..sure mention it once or twice in passing....But I mean if thats always been the case then, that is what is NORMAL to you, you shouldnt feel like you got dealt a bad card, since thats all you've ever known. Ok lets say you know of other races that have much longer lifespans.. but I mean come on... It just feels like they are all SO OVERLY sensitive to the matter. Poor writing in my opinion.

I kind of agree. I mean it's not like once humans in Mass Effect found out about the Asari they were constantly complaining about "only" living to be 100 or so. But then again I guess it helps that all the other races other than the Asari have similar lifespands. Maybe if every race we met lived to be 1000 we would be a little more butthurt

Edited August 3, 2016 by Raptor One

[dreamweaver13]

Wow, things went crazy. Felt like I was watching Evangelion. Or to be more precise, Rahxephon. Freyja with dead eyes was creepy.

[kalvasflam]

I think we're past the 24 hours for spoilers right?

I am completely certain Mikumo cannot die... not her or any of the Walkure... because they need to promote Junna and the rest of the members of Walkure, can't really do that if Rei Rei gets offed by Bogue, or Mikumo drops dead from culture shock, or Freyja from age. The rule of thumb in Macross is that songstress cannot die. Especially if they were found as a part of a contest.

As for the mech action this episode, it was really kind of lacking and disjointed. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the fighter combat, and battroid mode, whoa, mind blown. But honestly, there was no choreograph here, the entire sequence can be boiled down to Hayate fights Bogue, Hayate fights Keith.... neither for very long, and Hayate crashes. That's literally just it. I surely hope that next episode is a continuation of this one, but really expect everyone to be back on the Elysion, because you know, Roid would have ordered the retreat off screen. Never mind that it'll be 6 AKs vs 3 Delta, and the two lead Walkure are incapacitated. Hint, let Bogue go wild, he can wipe out all of Walkure in two seconds... the evil twin brothers, and the guy who'll show no mercy in the skies will just have to keep the other three Deltas busy for literally 30 seconds.

The problem with this entire show is the lack of continuity, I remember when Mikhail kicked the bucket, the next episode continued on with Klan going all Ex-gear using a VF-25 super pack on the Vajra, and blowing up one of the island clusters.That is continuity, here we'll be lucky if we get an explanation of what happened last episode. Super fold gate... blah blah... not sure I even care much at this point.

At this point, I'll be satisfied with Freyja's creepy laugh and some dead red shirts on Windermere side... not NUNS, because we've already seen plenty of dead red shirts from the NUNS side.

[Bryan Cranston]

This episode had so many mysteries! I am itching for answers. I hope we find out the identity of "Lady M" soon.... my money is on her being "Lady Macross"

[Raptor One]

This episode had so many mysteries! I am itching for answers. I hope we find out the identity of "Lady M" soon.... my money is on her being "Lady Macross"

As in the original SDF-1 Macross which has attained true sentience after its encounter with Sharon Apple in the 40s?

[Graham]

I wanna see Arad kick more ass, like he did way back in episode 0.89/01 against the Var'd Zentradi.

[chyll2]

I wanna see Arad kick more ass, like he did way back in episode 0.89/01 against the Var'd Zentradi.

Yeah, as the Captain and more veteran pilot out there, I was expecting him to do some Ozma stuff. Still waiting for his appearance donning the Armor Packs.

[squaresphere]

To be honest we don't know who he and Chuck are fighting during the sorties. They certainly don't have the rivalry that everyone seems to have with the White Knight. Hell, Arad seems to think having a rookie take on the pilot that iced the team's Ace seems like a good idea. To me this implies he think his piloting skills are pretty far inferior to Hayate's. Even if their skills were equal, Arad should have a ton more experience AND has personal knowledge of Windermere combat tactics.

I might have actually given him the benefit of the doubt if he was actually issuing orders to the rest of Delta like real squad leader but that mostly consist of him saying, "x formation" then flying off screen. He'll he's even pass that buck to Mirage. So wtf is he actually doing? At this point it would be better if he was on the bridge being a flight commander.

In short he's no Ozma

[guyxxed]

I want to see literally ANYONE other than Hayate or Keith kicking ass. I'm really tired of every fight focusing only on those two. That's really my big complaint against Delta. They've got a great team, and absolutely no teamwork. Frontier did a great job at showing combined arms fighting and everyone having a role to play. Delta mostly shows one on one duels while everyone else circles in the background (both the fighters and the singers). That's annoying.

[squaresphere]

I also want to throw out there that at this point in Frontier there was a real sense of desperation and the raised stakes felt more impactful.

Here we have the Chaos infiltrate the same planet again, which lead to a semi "just as planned" moment from Roid which honestly deflated the tension. He LET them in knowing something was going to happen and uses the half the Knights as token resistance. If he was serious about conquering the galaxy this would have been the perfect opportunity to bring the full might of the Winderemere military to crush Walkure.

Instead, we solidify the fact that Roid is more interested in research and seem to be trying to maneuver Walkure into experiments, possibly to save Hienz' strength and/or understand PC technology.

I kind of wish we'd have some scenes at NUNS or among the refugees of Starwind sector vow vengeance against the Winderemere would have raised the stakes and make the show's conflict feel like it could spiral out of control in an organic way. You'd think there would be a huge conscription effort for many folks to enlist who want to take back their planets. Hell NUNS could broadcast the fact they have JAMMERS that actually WORK against VARS as recruiting material. They could turn the whole damn galaxy against Windermere in moments if they wanted to. I'm sure if they released video of the White Knight in action there would be more than a few elite units that would want to take a crack at him.

The only thing that would counter this is Lady M lobbying as hard as possible as that would show how incompetent Chaos is.

[Ghostbear0]

So I think I just figured something out. Roud is right the windemerians are the true heirs to to the legacy of the protoculture. Because remember the true legacy of the protoculture is that they were a bunch of self destructive asshats.

[Graham]

Damn, still no Deadfish

[azrael]

Damn, still no Deadfish

Use VLC to convert to an MP4?

[Mommar]

So I think I just figured something out. Roud is right the windemerians are the true heirs to to the legacy of the protoculture. Because remember the true legacy of the protoculture is that they were a bunch of self destructive asshats.

[Raptor One]

So I think I just figured something out. Roud is right the windemerians are the true heirs to to the legacy of the protoculture. Because remember the true legacy of the protoculture is that they were a bunch of self destructive asshats.

Lmao bravo sir

[Roy Focker]

Good one. But if anyone is the heirs it would be the Zentradi. The Protoculture just manipulated local lifeforms on the planets they visited. Weren't the Zentradi clone lifeforms manipulated from their own DNA?

[Master Dex]

It is true the Zentradi were directly created by the PC for a specific task, rather than the more whimsicle "let's screw with DNA of stuff here and see what happens" approach of other species. But Since Zentradi were just meant to be a warrior slave race.. not really heirs of anything... well one thing actually. They are the heirs of the Protoculture's biggest screw up.. since their standing orders are to find and eradicate Supervision Army ships and members, and apparently, some still exist out there.

[Ghostbear0]

In all seriousness though Roid talks as if the protoculture as if they were benevolent elders who left guidposts behind for their children. However we as fans know they eradicated themselves and nearly all other life in the galaxy and left behind traps in case their erstwhile playrhingsbstarted to become dangerous. The most benevolent thing left by the protoculture so far has been a warning not to be like them.

[kalvasflam]

Is it too much to hope at this point for a massive (read not one sided) fleet battle over Windermere at the series conclusion?

I for one would like to see those derivative Windermere ships in action against NUNS ships with the fighters playing a supporting role. I know, I should just watch Yamato 2202 instead.

[Solo Wing Pixy]

One of the problems i'm having with this series is that its leaving several plot points ambiguous. Why did windermere want to start a war against the NUNS(and what was wright's motive)? What is the relationship between the protoculture and the windermerians? Many things are being implied, but not fleshed out. This could just be saved for an endgame reveal, but the absence of characterisation feels noticeable.

[cwmodels]

The latest episode felt clunky and disjointed in cutting between the songs and action. Was not a smooth ride at all.

One of the key problem I still have is not explaining the Windermere's powers clearly. Psychic connections like Newtypes? That would kinda suck if it is the case.

Al the characters are so colorful and upbeat it become a strange contrast when they try to move the plot into darker territories. At this point I kinda wish Delta gets 2 seasons to see more development for all the characters.

[Mr Jones]

His original idea was more like an air show competition. There wasn't a love triangle but as he said, the sponsors won't let him get away with it. It had to have VFs, a love triangle, and singing. I think he only wanted 2 of those items.

Honestly that concept sounds far better than this one. Macross needs to take a break from some of its tropes.

[RedWolf]

One of the problems i'm having with this series is that its leaving several plot points ambiguous. Why did windermere want to start a war against the NUNS(and what was wright's motive)? What is the relationship between the protoculture and the windermerians? Many things are being implied, but not fleshed out. This could just be saved for an endgame reveal, but the absence of characterisation feels noticeable.

White Knight of Black Wings manga prequel side story seems to be covering that.

At least to Keith while Windermere gained a technological uplift thanks to Terrans he feels they have lost their sovereignty despite being an independent nation and having their own government. Further Keith sees Terrans as outsiders that could not understand them. NUNS has base on Windermere and the issues are similar to the US having bases on Japan and the locals not liking it. Cassim is angry his orchard at Exdel village got burned accidentally by VFs in a training run.

There is also the issue of the Mutual Defense Treaty that Windermere has with the NUN which the Aerial Knights feel isn't right. Again emphasized are Windermerean short life spans. Keith would rather have the Aerial Knights defend Windermere than assist NUNS in protecting other worlds from common threats like Lost Zentradi fleets.

The final issue that is being fleshed out is the Fold Quartz buried underground on ruins. After the Frontier-Galaxy conflict the NUNG made it law to restrict the possession, harvesting and distribution of Fold Quartz due to the advent of Dimension Eater technology. The only thing that Windermere produces is apples. NUNS is guarding most of it. Some of the locals harvest and sell it as trinkets. So the local NUNS garrison likely didn't bring a MDE warhead on Windermere it was built there. As to why we don't know. However this goes against NUN treaties.

On another note while Windermerean accuses Terrans they wouldn't have known war if they didn't come this is a lie. Going by the Newtype article 40 years ago they were still fighting each other with knights gliding with gliding beasts. The real issue is that they are feeling inferior despite being stronger and having Runes due to Terrans lifespans and advanced technological civilization.

Edited August 4, 2016 by RedWolf

[eko.prasetiyo]

well if lost zentradi attack winderemere before their war of independence perhaps they will think terrans are right.

[Product9]

I know everyone is itching too see multi mode combat and we did get a little this time but after reading Sketchley's translation of Great Mechanics G sparing 2016 I don't believe we will see too much of it in an atmosphere. According to it the battroid mode can hover but not fly. That may explain why it has been limited so far to fighter vs fighter.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between hovering and flying. Is it strictly a matter of speed?

But, either way it's irrelevant because it still doesn't add up. Dogfighting tactics are all based around energy management. Why? Because energy = turn rate, and turn rate is literally everything in a fixed wing fighter dogfight. Guns (and I'm assuming this is a guns fight, not a missiles one) on fighters usually face forward, so the fighter has to turn in order to place its weapons on target. If the fighter loses too much energy (goes too slow) it loses the ability to turn at its maximum rate and is at a potential disadvantage. If it goes too fast, it also loses that ability. This is why "corner velocity" is important, and must be maintained for maximum effectiveness in a dogfight. This is based on the limitations of fixed wing aircraft, and only applies to fixed wing aircraft (and variable geometry aircraft like the F-14, to be pedantic).

So, let me put this out there: what has a higher turn rate, a fighter or a battroid? VFs with ISC can certainly turn extremely fast... but a battroid can hover and spin in place. Quickly too if Hayate's dance moves are any indication. If the battroid can maintain a position or a slow speed, turn in place and have its guns always on target, then how can a fighter have an advantage over that? It doesn't matter even if the fighter is at its optimum corner velocity and maximum rate of turn, it's going to get shot up by the battroid if it gets anywhere near it. The only possible way a fighter could turn quickly enough to defeat a battroid in this regime is extremely high alpha, post stall maneuvering which the battroid or even gerwalk is going to have an advantage in anyway. Also remember in those modes the guns can be aimed much more effectively thanks to the arms.

So, if you're chasing a guy down and he suddenly switches to battroid, what happens? First, you overshoot big time as you zoom by the rapidly decelerating battroid. Saying you stay in fighter, what do you do then? Do you turn around and come in for a pass, in the same way you might strafe a ground target? But the battroid has its guns trained on you, so no matter what angle you approach from, he's going to shoot you... and his bullets are just about as fast as your are, maybe a tad bit slower thanks to being on a slower moving gunnery platform. Even if he doesn't shoot you down as you approach, he's probably going to get out of the way of your fire using his extremely effective vernier thrusters, and then shoot you up as you pass by or fly away. So, what do you do?

You do what Brera did in Sayonara no Tsubasa. Switch to battroid and use verniers to avoid fire while returning fire yourself. Then you might let some micro missiles go to force your opponent to retreat so you can recover and reengage.

There are of course a lot of different things that can happen in the above scenario (for example shooting the guy as he initially transforms and risking a collision, or filling the air with missiles in an attempt to overwhelm his defenses or distract him), and this does assume a 1 v 1 fight (which is what we see a lot of in Delta, since other pilots disappear when the writers don't know what to do with them), but the point is battroid is a useful mode, even in air combat. I'd even say it's useful especially in air combat.

I know this is ground we retread a lot here, but every week I think of new examples of why multi-mode combat is better than single-mode combat, and I feel compelled to share them

Well of course she reminds you of her mom!

---

So, I'm seeing a lot of comments about not understanding what happened in the episode. What's not to understand? Mikumo and crew started to sing at the ruins, which amplified their abilities because that's what those ruins do, and that resulted in a runaway reaction between Freja and Hayate. Since we already have seen that Hayate has been more and more overwhelmed by Freja's singing and her connection with him, it stands to reason that when her singing is amplified by the ruins its going to have a much more profound effect on the guy. When Freja and Hayate resonate, we get that effect inside of Hayate's brain head that isn't dissimilar to what happens to a person who's been Var'd. So the real mystery is what does the synchronization have to do with the Var syndrome. My guess is that much like the Vajra bacteria, Var could have a good or bad effect depending on circumstances, and I'm sure the power of song (positive song at least) will turn it all around in the end.

I guess Freja's trance as well as Mikumo's reactions were a little unexpected, but it's really no weirder than anything else that's happened in Delta thus far. Also, that the amplified song caused some dudes to age rapidly is something that hasn't yet been explained. Still, not that weird. Maybe the frenetic imagery is what's throwing people.

If song and age do have a correlation, then I further guess that song is going to ultimately cure the short lifespan of the Windermere people, but that's already been hypothesized by other members before me.

Also, is it just me or was there some time slowdown there? When Hayate rushes Keith it looks like time went all wonky like it did when Alto was delivering his final love speech at the end of Sayonara no Tsubasa as the beams inched toward him.

Reading this over before posting I notice I start a lot of paragraphs with "So..." I need to work on that.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Product9

[ManhattanProject972]

I want to see literally ANYONE other than Hayate or Keith kicking ass. I'm really tired of every fight focusing only on those two. That's really my big complaint against Delta. They've got a great team, and absolutely no teamwork. Frontier did a great job at showing combined arms fighting and everyone having a role to play. Delta mostly shows one on one duels while everyone else circles in the background (both the fighters and the singers). That's annoying.

While yes I would too like to see anyone else besides the three you mentioned fight as at this point its kinda getting old I mean there is so many other characters at play.

But that is what I feel is whats holding Delta back, too many characters at play and not enough time/budget to show them. Frontier had it easy, as it was pretty much Alto and Ozma doing all the fighting against disposable enemies, the Vajra, that they can afford to struggle with and kill every engagement/episode making it more satisfying to watch. Micheal probably didn't even give the animation team a hard time 'cause all they had to do was show him laying done on the nearest space rock shooting something in the distance and I forgot all about Luca but that just means he didn't get that much action like everyone else in Delta. But where Luca was useless 90% of the time the rest of Delta team should have way more relevance to the action scenes.

Im kinda disappointed we didn't get to see any sort of Hayate and Mirage tag-teaming it like in the first intro and no doubt any scenes like that could do wonders for them as it would drive toy sales. Because if I didn't already like the color blue, or single head laser Valks, or that the 31J and 31C are an homage to Max and Milia I wouldn't have much interest in them. Missed opportunity there.

They were trying in the battle for Ragna episode where they had Delta 05, 04, and 03 chasing down Keith practically in one shot, but where the hell was Arad in that whole battle, or Cassim and Herman, they couldve shown us a short scene of Arad keeping those two busy. We saw that the Twins were pretty much glued to the Sigur Valens protecting it and Bouge was doing what he does best, but they always leave out Arad and Mirage and the two old guys from the AK. I bet a real choreographed dogfight showcasing those any of them would be pretty awesome.

There is so much potential in this series but I feel none of it is ever going to be utilized effectively. All I can do is hope to Lord Kawamori I'm wrong.

[Product9]

I too want to see more Arad. I want to see more of everybody in the Delta team but I want to see Arad the most.

I was rewatching that space battle in the asteroids many episodes ago and Arad was doing some pretty cool stuff there, but I don't think he's done much since then...

Also, I'm wondering what will become of Messer's VF-31F after that crash. It presumably survived crashing after Messer was killed (because it doens't seem the Valkyrie's AI takes over when the pilot is incapacitated, or else Hayate probably wouldn't have crashed down like that), and as others have mentioned Alto's VF-25 survived a crash on Galia IV... but Alto did at least manage to get the nose up. Hayate's crash looked to be nose first.

[chyll2]

Other than focusing too much on duel, it seems that they rarely use Gerwalk and Battroid mode and the fight scene is mostly on fighter mode. It is really good at first but it kinds of get boring later on.

[Solo Wing Pixy]

I'm not sure I understand the difference between hovering and flying. Is it strictly a matter of speed?

But, either way it's irrelevant because it still doesn't add up. Dogfighting tactics are all based around energy management. Why? Because energy = turn rate, and turn rate is literally everything in a fixed wing fighter dogfight. Guns (and I'm assuming this is a guns fight, not a missiles one) on fighters usually face forward, so the fighter has to turn in order to place its weapons on target. If the fighter loses too much energy (goes too slow) it loses the ability to turn at its maximum rate and is at a potential disadvantage. If it goes too fast, it also loses that ability. This is why "corner velocity" is important, and must be maintained for maximum effectiveness in a dogfight. This is based on the limitations of fixed wing aircraft, and only applies to fixed wing aircraft (and variable geometry aircraft like the F-14, to be pedantic).

So, let me put this out there: what has a higher turn rate, a fighter or a battroid? VFs with ISC can certainly turn extremely fast... but a battroid can hover and spin in place. Quickly too if Hayate's dance moves are any indication. If the battroid can maintain a position or a slow speed, turn in place and have its guns always on target, then how can a fighter have an advantage over that? It doesn't matter even if the fighter is at its optimum corner velocity and maximum rate of turn, it's going to get shot up by the battroid if it gets anywhere near it. The only possible way a fighter could turn quickly enough to defeat a battroid in this regime is extremely high alpha, post stall maneuvering which the battroid or even gerwalk is going to have an advantage in anyway. Also remember in those modes the guns can be aimed much more effectively thanks to the arms.

So, if you're chasing a guy down and he suddenly switches to battroid, what happens? First, you overshoot big time as you zoom by the rapidly decelerating battroid. Saying you stay in fighter, what do you do then? Do you turn around and come in for a pass, in the same way you might strafe a ground target? But the battroid has its guns trained on you, so no matter what angle you approach from, he's going to shoot you... and his bullets are just about as fast as your are, maybe a tad bit slower thanks to being on a slower moving gunnery platform. Even if he doesn't shoot you down as you approach, he's probably going to get out of the way of your fire using his extremely effective vernier thrusters, and then shoot you up as you pass by or fly away. So, what do you do?

You do what Brera did in Sayonara no Tsubasa. Switch to battroid and use verniers to avoid fire while returning fire yourself. Then you might let some micro missiles go to force your opponent to retreat so you can recover and reengage.

There are of course a lot of different things that can happen in the above scenario (for example shooting the guy as he initially transforms and risking a collision, or filling the air with missiles in an attempt to overwhelm his defenses or distract him), and this does assume a 1 v 1 fight (which is what we see a lot of in Delta, since other pilots disappear when the writers don't know what to do with them), but the point is battroid is a useful mode, even in air combat. I'd even say it's useful especially in air combat.

I know this is ground we retread a lot here, but every week I think of new examples of why multi-mode combat is better than single-mode combat, and I feel compelled to share them

---

So, I'm seeing a lot of comments about not understanding what happened in the episode. What's not to understand? Mikumo and crew started to sing at the ruins, which amplified their abilities because that's what those ruins do, and that resulted in a runaway reaction between Freja and Hayate. Since we already have seen that Hayate has been more and more overwhelmed by Freja's singing and her connection with him, it stands to reason that when her singing is amplified by the ruins its going to have a much more profound effect on the guy. When Freja and Hayate resonate, we get that effect inside of Hayate's brain head that isn't dissimilar to what happens to a person who's been Var'd. So the real mystery is what does the synchronization have to do with the Var syndrome. My guess is that much like the Vajra bacteria, Var could have a good or bad effect depending on circumstances, and I'm sure the power of song (positive song at least) will turn it all around in the end.

I guess Freja's trance as well as Mikumo's reactions were a little unexpected, but it's really no weirder than anything else that's happened in Delta thus far. Also, that the amplified song caused some dudes to age rapidly is something that hasn't yet been explained. Still, not that weird. Maybe the frenetic imagery is what's throwing people.

If song and age do have a correlation, then I further guess that song is going to ultimately cure the short lifespan of the Windermere people, but that's already been hypothesized by other members before me.

Also, is it just me or was there some time slowdown there? When Hayate rushes Keith it looks like time went all wonky like it did when Alto was delivering his final love speech at the end of Sayonara no Tsubasa as the beams inched toward him.

Reading this over before posting I notice I start a lot of paragraphs with "So..." I need to work on that.

What I thought happened at the ruins was akin to an "overload" effect. Both Heinz and Walkure were resonating with the structure, and the resulting amplification of both fold waves may have caused Mikumo, Freyja, Hayate and Heinz to enter a trance/Var(as with many other individuals) due to pushing the protoculture structure to its limits.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Solo Wing Pixy

[Heron]

After spending the summer in Tokyo shopping and buying Walkure related Macross Delta merchandise, I have come to the conclusion Macross D is nothing more than a system to deliver an Idol Group. I am waiting for a Walkure Cafe and Theater to open in Akiba. Hopefully they will sell Pineapple Salad and Ragna Water Spiders at the cafe! ^^

As for this episode, again great idol music and I liked the stuff happening at the ruins but the mecha combat was meh. Too much flash and too little substance.

[This Confuses Gamlin]

The problem with Battroid in air-to-air really should be that killing your airspeed to get a shot makes you an easy target for a wingman but that hardly ever comes up.

Flying shouldn't be that much more difficult for a late-model VF, they have crazy TWR. Unless the 31 defaults to dumping all of its engine output to its ECA and PPB in Battroid.

[Product9]

The problem with Battroid in air-to-air really should be that killing your airspeed to get a shot makes you an easy target for a wingman but that hardly ever comes up.

Flying shouldn't be that much more difficult for a late-model VF, they have crazy TWR. Unless the 31 defaults to dumping all of its engine output to its ECA and PPB in Battroid.

A 2v2 happened in Zero, which is sort of relevant even though there was no transforming involved until the tail end of the duel.

Shin did a cobra, and Nora did likewise to avoid overshooting. Ivanov and Fokker continued on forward and were gone the next moment, leaving Shin and Nora to duel. In the case of transforming and dumping airspeed, the same thing would apply. The wingman would also have to transform to keep from immediately overshooting, and there would be a battroid brawl between the two while the other two fighters carried on.

But, that's assuming they were in some kind of formation. There are so many variations that there is no one right answer, and a Valkyrie pilot would make choices based on the situation, weighed against their own ability to make good judgments, react, control their fighters, etc. Each mode represents a different set of tools, and the pilot must be able to choose the right tool for the job, and do so at a moment's notice.

I'd like to know how much performance the verniers on these things have. Is there any data about that?

What I thought happened at the ruins was akin to an "overload" effect. Both Heinz and Walkure were resonating with the structure, and the resulting amplification of both fold waves may have caused Mikumo, Freyja, Hayate and Heinz to enter a trance/Var(as with many other individuals) due to pushing the protoculture structure to its limits.

Maybe, I dunno. I should have been more careful to point out that's what I saw as happening, which doesn't necessarily mean that's what actually happened. But Heintz was KO'ed by Mikumo, and Freja had already been KO'ed by Kaname, when Mikumo caused the ruins to blow up or whatever happened to them at the end there. Then again, it could have already been at capacity with all the focused singing and she just pushed it over the edge.

Well, now I'm confused too.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Product9

[Chronocidal]

I'm not sure I understand the difference between hovering and flying. Is it strictly a matter of speed?

(snip)

So, if you're chasing a guy down and he suddenly switches to battroid, what happens? First, you overshoot big time as you zoom by the rapidly decelerating battroid. Saying you stay in fighter, what do you do then? Do you turn around and come in for a pass, in the same way you might strafe a ground target? But the battroid has its guns trained on you, so no matter what angle you approach from, he's going to shoot you... and his bullets are just about as fast as your are, maybe a tad bit slower thanks to being on a slower moving gunnery platform. Even if he doesn't shoot you down as you approach, he's probably going to get out of the way of your fire using his extremely effective vernier thrusters, and then shoot you up as you pass by or fly away. So, what do you do?

You do what Brera did in Sayonara no Tsubasa. Switch to battroid and use verniers to avoid fire while returning fire yourself. Then you might let some micro missiles go to force your opponent to retreat so you can recover and reengage.

If the pilot staying in fighter knows what's good for him? He's not going to go anywhere near the range of the guy in battroid. And he wouldn't have to.

That's one other thing speed gains you: range. The guy who zips around at arm's length lobbing missiles at the relatively stationary battroid isn't at much risk from most of his weaponry, because his own weapons inherit a massive energy advantage from his speed. He may still have energy weapons to contend with, but the guy in battroid is a relatively fixed point to unload on, and the fighter can just let loose with everything he has at his own maximum range, while he might be outside of the battroid's max range entirely.

Even if the fighter closes with the battroid, the battroid's missiles are at an absolute minimum level of performance, making them that much easier to avoid or outrun. On top of that, if he does close in, because he's moving so fast, his missiles might be coming from more angles than the battroid can effectively cover simultaneously, and he'll have to run.

Note, that's all using current day tactics and missile performance, but even 50 years in the future, missiles launched from a moving platform are going to go faster and farther.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Chronocidal

[Ghostbear0]

Further many faster maybe not remember Vf speeds are limited by survivable air resistance the same may go for missiles.