Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 16 - READ 1st POST

[Ghostbear0]

The pace of this show is weird. It feels like it's dragging and rushing at the same time. If that makes any sense.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Ghostbear0

[Product9]

Made a gif of Brera's VF-27 evading fire in battroid mode in an atmosphere (from Sayonara no Tsubasa).

It's slowed down to about 60% so it's easier to follow.

Imgur Link

I was gonna make some more gifs showing how much acceleration the YF-29 has and whatnot, but I'm pretty tired, so maybe I'll do it later if anyone is interested. My point is that transforming in an atmosphere isn't a detriment for a Valkyrie in a dogfight, but rather an advantage. The YF-29 goes from battroid to fighter and accelerates away fast enough that it nearly outruns the missiles that are chasing it... loss of energy isn't a problem for these things.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Product9

[ManhattanProject972]

They do have incredibly powerful vernier thrusters, though. Didn't Basara take off once from a dead standstill in fighter using verniers to get him off the ground enough to transform to GERWALK or something? It's been a long time since I've seen 7.

There are a lot of things that sort of bother me about Valkyrie deployment, though, but I just let it slide because I know it's all style. They are styled after modern 4th and 5th gen fighters, which I'm okay with because they look really cool and dramatic, but they have so much power and technical wizardry that there is no need for them do modern fighter stuff like launch from a runway on a carrier.

I personally think the strength a Valkyrie has isn't in any one mode, but rather in using all three modes as the situation demands. I have to admit Delta's dogfights have been a little dull to me because they neglect this principle that has been so well established in previous Macross shows.

Being able to swoop in, use GERWALK to rapidly reverse direction, then switch to battroid for a stable gunnery platform as the pilot takes a few shots at their opponent, then switch back to fighter to zoom away with their incredible thrust to weight ratio... that's how a Macross dogfight should be. Again, I reference the fight between the YF-29 and VF-27. That was an atmospheric dogfight with modern Valks with ISC and super powerful engines, but it was a lot more dynamic and interesting than what we have seen in Delta (IMO).

And keep in mind the battroids we have now are not sluggish by any means. Their vernier thrusters are so powerful then can dart around to dodge fire in any direction while returning fire with their accurate arm-carried weaponry, which is exactly what Alto and Brera did in Sayonara no Tsubasa.

While I agree that we should most definitely see more atmospheric transformations I feel in the context of Alto's and Brera's dogfight at the end of the movie it was mostly a one-on-one engagement without too much worry of taking fire from other sources. I feel there aren't enough really good pilots who can pull off what Alto did and an average pilot could barely dodge attacks from one enemy but if he transforms while outnumbered that could put an average pilot in really hot water because the chances of being surrounded are high and good luck trying to dodge every bullet and missile headed your way.

Though you can definitely argue that Delta Platoon shouldn't be just average pilots who can barely fly their way out of a paper bag but a group of respected aces who can pull off at least a fraction of what Alto did in the movie. We know they have the skill for it and Hayate already demonstrated he can be an absolute badass in Battroid mode we just aren't seeing any of it lately.

And hell yeah I wanna see some blistering paced, mode changing, close range action of a true Valk on Valk engagement, but I feel they bit off more than they can chew with how many characters they have fighting in the same space at once. Because the moment one of them goes Battroid it should become an all out brawl with fire coming from all directions maybe some robot fisticuffs as they wrestle each other in midair trying to rip each others wings off. And who knows maybe they'll run out of replacement arms for Hayate and instead give him duel flip out arm mounted blades kinda like a 27.

Edited July 22, 2016 by ManhattanProject972

[Product9]

Actually it was 1 on 4. Brera had 3 Ghosts with him.

You know, Hayate sure has lost a lot of valkyrie arms... I wonder what his callsign should be.

[David Hingtgen]

"Man-at-arms".

[Chronocidal]

Cute episode, but yeah, as obvious as Freya's affection for Hayate is, I can't help feeling like that relationship is a dead end (hopefully not literally). Age-wise, I just think he and Mirage fit better together. The entire red/blue thing they had going on in the first opening is either an obvious reference, or the biggest triangle troll ever.

I am loving the hints they're dropping about Mirage though. Yes, she's got decent instincts as a pilot, but if her heart isn't in flying, where is it? Family-wise, we don't know what kind of mother Miranda Jenius would have been, and I'm wondering if she pushed Mirage into flying against her wishes, to carry on the family legacy.

If Lady M turns out to be Mylene, that'll be an interesting twist, but Mirage still has two more aunts with names that start with M, and there are still other characters I can think of. Heck, it could even be Millia herself honestly, we don't know how pure meltran genes work, or how long they live.

If it does turn out to be Hayate's father who bombed Windermere, I get the feeling that the real reason is going to be pretty ugly, and maybe much more complicated than anyone has let on. The "too kind for his own good" line has me wondering about how that would fit though. If one of the Windermereans stole the bomb to use on their own planet, and he couldn't bring himself to stop them, that would make some sense, but really, why would they need such a disaster to provoke a war with NUNS?

Mikumo singing in those ruins though.. she's not dressed anything like anyone from Windermere, and while the song sounds really familiar, I can't place it. The multiple colors in her hair do remind me of the colors in Freya's though.

I feel like we're going to find out that the bombing saved Windermere from itself somehow (or maybe saved it from interference from NUNS). I keep thinking that the var syndrome is really just a later version of the bird-human, a failsafe put in place to make sure the Protoculture's experiments didn't run amok. Instead of wiping them out like the bird-human was built for, the var would just take control of them.

I don't know.. something about Windermere's appearance and climate bother me. Is the whole planet cold? And what about all the fold faults around it?

Crackpot theory time: Windermere's solar system used to have more planets, or maybe a moon. Something huge was destroyed the last time someone tried to poke around the ruins, and Mikumo was behind it, either as the designated wind singer, or a member of the Protoculture kept in stasis on the ship they're using now.

[Zinjo]

Valkyries are nothing like modern day fighters, even when restricted to fighter mode. And modern day fighters are nothing like WWII era fighters that had to claw for altitude to get an energy advantage.

A modern 4th gen fighter has a climb rate somewhere along the lines of 60 thousand feet a minute (this is from memory so probably not spot on) and a service ceiling around 50 thousand feet. Energy isn't as big a problem now as it was then, but it is still a very important concern.

Now consider the Valkyrie. The YF-21 had enough power to start burning up in the atmosphere while climbing, all the while crushing its pilot. The Valkyries in Delta are far above that in performance, and have the revolutionary ISC as well as other fold-quartz wizardry that puts them head and shoulders above even the 2040s era machines that were already so powerful they were a hazard to the pilot and had to be substantially limited.

So, now (in 2067) energy is a nonexistant problem. They can gain energy so fast that losing it in a fight is not a concern. Or at least it shouldn't be. I wouldn't put *too* much stock in Shoji Kawamori's understanding of modern air combat, and the associated technology. If you know what to look for, the ignorance (in some areas) is really apparent, but if you don't then it all probably seems like they know what they're talking about. (And I mean no disrespect here. I'm just making observations)

Heck, based on something Messer said, apparently the VF-31 doesn't even have FADEC.

Edit: clarity

It isn't only about performance of the aircraft. It is about tactics in air combat.

in M0 when Roy transformed into battroid to capture his gun pod, what happened? Ivanov spammed him with missiles. In the time it would take Roy to transform back, Ivanov could have come back around and spammed him with gunpod rounds. The only mode worth using in an atmosphere is GERWALK which gives you a quick direction change, though it will retard your momentum to a point. The SV-262 has the advantage in that respect, with the mini-drakkens giving the Windermerian pilots the ability to change direction without the delay of a transformation sequence as Keith demonstrated. The Mini-D's act like the outboard engines of VF-25 Tornado Pack, except they are also detachable ghosts.

Battroid mode would be most effective in the air when the fighter is being swarmed as Max demonstrated in SDFM. This allows the pilot to use his gunpod and head guns to defend against incoming ordinance and aircraft, but even that is a short term tactic. The longer he stays in one place the more vulnerable he becomes.

Air combat has to take into account wind resistance, gravity, the speed of your opponent and his relative attack position to yours. In Space all the pilot really needs to be concerned about is inertia and his opponent, so all modes are effective in that environment.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Zinjo

[aurance]

Yeah I dunno. I don't find the "fighter-mode only for atmosphere" thing convincing, based on almost every other Macross story. Macross Plus, come on.

Edited July 22, 2016 by aurance

[azrael]

As long as Windermere starts losing some fights, I don't care if the fight sequences are in atmosphere or in space. I want to see real setbacks in their plans. Not losing a lone red-shirt or a billion. I want to see them actually lose a full fight.

[Ghostbear0]

Macross physics are far enough outside the bounds of reality that it's less visually interesting is the far greater concern. Hyate's breakdancing and Mirage's catch from episodes 1&2 are still some of the most interesting mecha action in the series. The asteroid fight being the other dealt neat one.

[kalvasflam]

As long as Windermere starts losing some fights, I don't care if the fight sequences are in atmosphere or in space. I want to see real setbacks in their plans. Not losing a lone red-shirt or a billion. I want to see them actually lose a full fight.

I will settle for a couple of redshirts every other episode at this point. Because as of right now these guys are essentially untouchable

[Raptor One]

I personally think the strength a Valkyrie has isn't in any one mode, but rather in using all three modes as the situation demands. I have to admit Delta's dogfights have been a little dull to me because they neglect this principle that has been so well established in previous Macross shows.

Being able to swoop in, use GERWALK to rapidly reverse direction, then switch to battroid for a stable gunnery platform as the pilot takes a few shots at their opponent, then switch back to fighter to zoom away with their incredible thrust to weight ratio... that's how a Macross dogfight should be. Again, I reference the fight between the YF-29 and VF-27. That was an atmospheric dogfight with modern Valks with ISC and super powerful engines, but it was a lot more dynamic and interesting than what we have seen in Delta (IMO).

And keep in mind the battroids we have now are not sluggish by any means. Their vernier thrusters are so powerful then can dart around to dodge fire in any direction while returning fire with their accurate arm-carried weaponry, which is exactly what Alto and Brera did in Sayonara no Tsubasa.

Exactly my thoughts on the matter, and what I had in mind (along with scenes from Plus and Zero) when I said it's never been a problem for any of the other series.

I can't help comparing to the atmospheric dogfights in the Frontier TV series which were far more of a pleasure to watch. Even in Mirage and Hayate's battle in episode 2 or 3, the usefulness of mode switching was demonstrated as it was what allowed Hayate to win.

I guess the only thing I can say is that all of those examples were one on one fights, with a third party interrupting towards the end, so maybe that's what makes the difference. Still though, this a weird time for Macross to sacrifice rule of cool for "realism."

Edited July 22, 2016 by Raptor One

[Chronocidal]

Rule of cool aside, just thinking back to Macross 30, I hardly ever used anything but fighter unless I was in a confined space, and even then, I'd prefer gerwalk for the mobility. When everyone has turreted guns to pick off incoming missiles without moving out of fighter mode, or even beam cannons to take things out from any direction, it just makes more sense to keep dodging.

For the type of fights they're in right now? I can understand why they're only popping into gerwalk for minor maneuvers. It's definitely useful to be able to direct your thrust and jump all over the sky, but unlike certain situations like Macross Plus and Zero, these are very rarely true one-on-one fights, and slowing down enough to go hand-to-hand is likely to get you picked off really quickly from someone covering your target. It's really something we haven't seen since Macross Zero where Nora wiped out Shin's flight group. She didn't transform until Shin was the only one left, and only because he was actually keeping up with her. As long as your target has wingmen, you don't want to give them an easy target.

From the Windermerean point of view, they don't seem like they want to get into protracted battles ("duels of honor" notwithstanding). They're bum rushing their targets to counter immediate threats just long enough to give Heinz time to neutralize any combatants, then bugging out.

In space though? All bets are off, you don't have to slow down to transform, and you can just flip and spin all over the place to point your weapons in whichever way you need. What does make sense though is that a head on-profile in fighter is a whole lot smaller than a battroid, and between Keith's using the force and lasering whatever was directly in his path, it let him utterly decimate those jammer ships by flying between their firing patterns.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Chronocidal

[Product9]

If it does turn out to be Hayate's father who bombed Windermere, I get the feeling that the real reason is going to be pretty ugly, and maybe much more complicated than anyone has let on. The "too kind for his own good" line has me wondering about how that would fit though...

...I feel like we're going to find out that the bombing saved Windermere from itself somehow

Hey, yeah, that's a good hypothesis. What if there was a Var outbreak on Windermere and the bomb was dropped to save the rest of the population from rampaging humans, or even Windermere people?

That could be considered an act of kindness by one perspective and an act of treason from another.

It isn't only about performance of the aircraft. It is about tactics in air combat.

in M0 when Roy transformed into battroid to capture his gun pod, what happened? Ivanov spammed him with missiles. In the time it would take Roy to transform back, Ivanov could have come back around and spammed him with gunpod rounds. The only mode worth using in an atmosphere is GERWALK which gives you a quick direction change, though it will retard your momentum to a point. The SV-262 has the advantage in that respect, with the mini-drakkens giving the Windermerian pilots the ability to change direction without the delay of a transformation sequence as Keith demonstrated. The Mini-D's act like the outboard engines of VF-25 Tornado Pack, except they are also detachable ghosts.

Battroid mode would be most effective in the air when the fighter is being swarmed as Max demonstrated in SDFM. This allows the pilot to use his gunpod and head guns to defend against incoming ordinance and aircraft, but even that is a short term tactic. The longer he stays in one place the more vulnerable he becomes.

Air combat has to take into account wind resistance, gravity, the speed of your opponent and his relative attack position to yours. In Space all the pilot really needs to be concerned about is inertia and his opponent, so all modes are effective in that environment.

I contend that the performance of the aircraft dictates tactics.

Macross Zero may not be the best example because the variable fighters were only a couple steps up from a regular early 4th generation fighter (the F-14), and didn't have anything even resembling the performance of what we see in 2067.

I have heard the argument that Keith uses the Lilldrakens similarly to the rotating engines on the VF-25 Tornado pack, and thus he doesn't have to transform to get the benefits of extreme thrust vectoring. Indeed, in Itsuwari no Utahime, Alto was shown doing some crazy things with his Tornado packed VF-25 (been meaning to make a gif of that missile evading scene). However, the YF-29 also has rotating engines, as well as more power thanks to its fold magic system, and yet Alto used transformations in his dogfight against Brera. To be fair, I don't know if the YF-29 can rotate its engine as far as either the Tornado Pack or the Sv-262's Lildrakens.

I also understand the argument that transforming kills your airspeed, which makes perfect sense. However, what I don't think is being understood here, is that airspeed does not matter in a modern Valkyrie brawl. The power these things have is so immense that there's no such thing as a low energy state. They can accelerate in an instant to healthy dogfighting velocities.

I made a gif of a sequence from Sayonara no Tsubasa. Alto blocks a beam shot with his shield, then transforms to escape some missiles. I want you to take note that he went from battroid to flying away from the missiles in a very short amount of time, and his speed was such that he was able to keep pace with the missiles as he took them down. Heck, he nearly outran them.

Imgur Link - warning, it's kind of big (~40 MB). It's also slowed down to about 60% as I feel that's a good speed to actually understand what's going on in the scene. Frontier and Delta have very fast action, to the point of being confusing.

Keep in mind that during this battle Alto wasn't just facing Brera's VF-27, but also three V-9 Ghosts, which have been shown to be pretty fearsome opponents.

Air combat tactics change with technology. The tactics you'd see in World War II are nothing like the ones being used today, even in a dogfight scenario (which is pretty unlikely to happen at all with 5th gen fighters).

I won't comment on the tactics used in space, because frankly the variable fighter in fighter mode is a terrible design for a space fighter. Though, if you want me to go into it, I would be more than happy to, but probably in another thread (I already have a little in the Delta mecha and technology thread, if I remember correctly). Don't get me wrong, I love Valkyries, but they do have their shortcomings in concept. And maneuvering in space is one of those things that very few people seem to understand.

[ManhattanProject972]

Hey, yeah, that's a good hypothesis. What if there was a Var outbreak on Windermere and the bomb was dropped to save the rest of the population from rampaging humans, or even Windermere people?

That could be considered an act of kindness by one perspective and an act of treason from another.

I contend that the performance of the aircraft dictates tactics.

Macross Zero may not be the best example because the variable fighters were only a couple steps up from a regular early 4th generation fighter (the F-14), and didn't have anything even resembling the performance of what we see in 2067.

I have heard the argument that Keith uses the Lilldrakens similarly to the rotating engines on the VF-25 Tornado pack, and thus he doesn't have to transform to get the benefits of extreme thrust vectoring. Indeed, in Itsuwari no Utahime, Alto was shown doing some crazy things with his Tornado packed VF-25 (been meaning to make a gif of that missile evading scene). However, the YF-29 also has rotating engines, as well as more power thanks to its fold magic system, and yet Alto used transformations in his dogfight against Brera. To be fair, I don't know if the YF-29 can rotate its engine as far as either the Tornado Pack or the Sv-262's Lildrakens.

I also understand the argument that transforming kills your airspeed, which makes perfect sense. However, what I don't think is being understood here, is that airspeed does not matter in a modern Valkyrie brawl. The power these things have is so immense that there's no such thing as a low energy state. They can accelerate in an instant to healthy dogfighting velocities.

I made a gif of a sequence from Sayonara no Tsubasa. Alto blocks a beam shot with his shield, then transforms to escape some missiles. I want you to take note that he went from battroid to flying away from the missiles in a very short amount of time, and his speed was such that he was able to keep pace with the missiles as he took them down. Heck, he nearly outran them.

Imgur Link - warning, it's kind of big (~40 MB). It's also slowed down to about 60% as I feel that's a good speed to actually understand what's going on in the scene. Frontier and Delta have very fast action, to the point of being confusing.

Keep in mind that during this battle Alto wasn't just facing Brera's VF-27, but also three V-9 Ghosts, which have been shown to be pretty fearsome opponents.

Air combat tactics change with technology. The tactics you'd see in World War II are nothing like the ones being used today, even in a dogfight scenario (which is pretty unlikely to happen at all with 5th gen fighters).

I won't comment on the tactics used in space, because frankly the variable fighter in fighter mode is a terrible design for a space fighter. Though, if you want me to go into it, I would be more than happy to, but probably in another thread (I already have a little in the Delta mecha and technology thread, if I remember correctly). Don't get me wrong, I love Valkyries, but they do have their shortcomings in concept. And maneuvering in space is one of those things that very few people seem to understand.

You also have to take into account that Alto's YF-29 is arguably THE most capable combat Valkyrie we've seen yet, its immense power-to-weight ratio is far above even that of Brera's VF-27ySP with the QF-5100 Goblin bolted onto it. It took everything Brera, an enhanced cyborg, had to fight the the 29. While Delta Platoon's VF-31's are lighter than the 29, not by much, they are hugely underpowered when compared to the Durandal and given that the 31's don't have wing/back mounted engines as immensely powerful as the 29 they dont have the mid-air adjustability performance as it or the 27 either.

So I kinda understand why they don't use Battroid in the air all that much given the hardware they are using.

Also Alto didn't utilize B mode in his first air battle with Brera in the tv series but instead it was the 27 who was able to when the 25 more comparable to the 31 could not. And I also think that comparing the ending set piece of a movie with a movie budget to a series that is airing on tv is a little unfair.

Though when the eventual Delta movie does come out a few years from now SK and co. don't have any excuses to not give us the same level of epicness that was that final fight between Alto and Brera in the last movie.

[Product9]

Unfortunately that fight is so ridiculously short.

The VF-27 can't rotate its wingboard engines either, and even though it isn't as powerful as the -29, Brera also went battroid in that fight.

I think my points stand.

[ManhattanProject972]

Unfortunately that fight is so ridiculously short.

The VF-27 can't rotate its wingboard engines either, and even though it isn't as powerful as the -29, Brera also went battroid in that fight.

I think my points stand.

You're point does still stand, what I'm trying to get at is the VF-27 and the YF-29 are so capable in Battroid because they have an extra pair of engines, whether they can rotate or not. Having more punch than what two VF-171's can deliver strapped to your back aiding in your balancing and maneuvering gives it an advantage over conventional twin engined VF's that it would be a really tall order for most pilots to fight the battroid fight in atmosphere against a quad-engined VF.

If you're willing and not able you're a dead man, If you're not willing but able you're a smart man, if you're both willing and able you're crazy, but that's what it takes to be the best.

I really think its the hardware that Delta Platoon uses and the type of engagements that the Aerial Knights initiates (and the time and budget) that prevent us from getting in atmosphere battroid action. In the past a switch to B mode in the air was a commitment to go all in for that one fight, but the AK are fighting the long war and cant afford to trade shots in B mode. Delta Platoon don't really have too much of a reason to transform to take a few more moments to line up a shot when presumably their opponents should be just as capable of dodging and evading said shots no matter the mode their in. We've seen just how capable Alpha or Beta mooks in their 31A's are in B mode, they were next to stationary and missed every shot at Bouge when he went for Walkure on Ragna. Though we should expect Delta to be better in that regard, probably.

I just dont think we are going to see that level of fight till the climax of the series when all the chips are on the table. I hope to Lord Kawamori that I'm wrong.

[Product9]

You're point does still stand, what I'm trying to get at is the VF-27 and the YF-29 are so capable in Battroid because they have an extra pair of engines, whether they can rotate or not. Having more punch than what two VF-171's can deliver strapped to your back aiding in your balancing and maneuvering gives it an advantage over conventional twin engined VF's that it would be a really tall order for most pilots to fight the battroid fight in atmosphere against a quad-engined VF.

If you're willing and not able you're a dead man, If you're not willing but able you're a smart man, if you're both willing and able you're crazy, but that's what it takes to be the best.

I really think its the hardware that Delta Platoon uses and the type of engagements that the Aerial Knights initiates (and the time and budget) that prevent us from getting in atmosphere battroid action. In the past a switch to B mode in the air was a commitment to go all in for that one fight, but the AK are fighting the long war and cant afford to trade shots in B mode. Delta Platoon don't really have too much of a reason to transform to take a few more moments to line up a shot when presumably their opponents should be just as capable of dodging and evading said shots no matter the mode their in. We've seen just how capable Alpha or Beta mooks in their 31A's are in B mode, they were next to stationary and missed every shot at Bouge when he went for Walkure on Ragna. Though we should expect Delta to be better in that regard, probably.

I just dont think we are going to see that level of fight till the climax of the series when all the chips are on the table. I hope to Lord Kawamori that I'm wrong.

Thanks for the clarification.

Still, though, the fight between the YF-19 and YF-21 was really battroid heavy (though they didn't have ISC, which possibly changes things). If the VF-31 and Sv-262 are comparable, then that kind of multimode fight should still be the norm (or at least common). Though I suppose with the advantage given by the Lilldrakens maybe it would make the difference... but then the Sv-262 pilots should be using battroid more since it would grant them an advantage in that mode.

I wonder how much the extra engines contribute to the vernier thrusters, because the VF-27's are pretty dang powerful. In battroid Brera was able to dance out of the way of Alto's fire pretty effectively, and a lot of that seemed to be thanks to verniers propelling him downward and laterally.

I also forgot to mention that in a dogfight too much speed can be a bad thing. Dogfights are subsonic in nature because when flying too fast it takes longer to turn. Corner velocity for most 4th generation fighters seems to be around 350-450 knots or so. Any higher than that the turn widens at max g, which hurts turn performance (takes longer to turn around at high speed at max g). Any lower and they will bleed energy and stall before reaching max g. Turn performance is best at corner velocity, and that's really important in a dogfight. Of course, ISC may change that (because max g is substantially higher than nine, though there would still be an optimum speed for turn performance), but I'm still pretty sure even the high speed dogfights in Delta are subsonic, though that's pure speculation.

I do recall those -31As tooling around in battroid mode, but those guys looked like they were just phoning it in for that battle. At least they didn't get blasted as Bogue passed by...

In any case, I've spoken my piece on the matter so I'll let it rest. Also, I really enjoyed putting those gifs together... hope you guys liked 'em too.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Product9

[Scyla]

It was a good episode but man they are starting to ship Hayate and Freya hard. Mirage has to strike back in the next episodes.