Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 15 - READ 1st POST

[zathras]

Maybe NUNS should develop Fold jammer small enough to fit in each fighters.

The jamming capabilities should only need to protect the pilot from being affected by Heinz song.

On the galactic domination, I wonder how Windermere will manage that with such a small military force ?

Are they going to spread the apples & water all over the galaxy then have Heinz sing everytime ?

Conquering is one thing, but keeping hold is more difficult.

Macross7 fleet and UNS already had access to the AZ-130 Panserzorene and FbZ-99 Saubergeron which has the Sound Dampener/Spiritia Defense System built into the cockpit. Even Gavil/Glavil has its own Sound Dampener system(EARMUFF's!) that macross fans had made fun of but were effective enough against Basara's singing in Macross7 Episode29.

Edited July 13, 2016 by zathras

[zathras]

Could be perspective but I'm starting to think Barette City didn't leave Earth or Eden with a Battle class.

Ohys-Raws Macross Delta - 15 (MX 1280x720 x264 AAC).mp4_snapshot_09.40_2016.07.11_09.13.39.jpg

An Uruga may fit the dock instead.

When it first arrived on Ragna.

Ohys-Raws Macross Delta - 05 (MX 1280x720 x264 AAC).mp4_snapshot_00.21_2016.05.02_00.56.52.jpg

Agreed considering that Macross Elysion is a new class of ship that the design probably been around at least 10yrs as the Macross Quarter must had been based on the mini-me version of it. Wanted to ask, which came first, the Macross Quarter design or the Macross Elysion design as it seems to have the same transformation process compared to the SDF or New Macross class ships.

[UN Spacy]

Hard to believe there's only eleven episodes left.

Edited July 13, 2016 by UN Spacy

[trojan_gambit]

vajra planet are near galactic core while winderemere are at the edge of galaxy, they need very long distance fold to get there. unless sigur valens are able to do that.

Well...since Roid is bloated with galactic conquest, they can't be picky, can they ? ()

[Sandman]

Wasn't Roid the one who against Heinz pushing himself with too much singing? And now he wants to continue the war? Seems like Roid may have been hiding his true agenda?

Also do the ruins allow Heinz's song to var people even if they haven't had the water and apples?

[RedWolf]

Wasn't Roid the one who against Heinz pushing himself with too much singing? And now he wants to continue the war? Seems like Roid may have been hiding his true agenda?

Also do the ruins allow Heinz's song to var people even if they haven't had the water and apples?

Roid may be planning in kidnapping Mikumo as a replacement so Heinz will live.

Since he is a Protoculture fan which Mikumo might be he'll want her legitimize Windermere as the true heir of the Protoculture.

If Mikumo gets her memory back her answer may not be to his liking.

[eko.prasetiyo]

or he could kidnap freyja.

[aurance]

I guess it's Roid Rage.

[NightmarePlus]

I guess it's Roid Rage.

Badum tiss!

[eko.prasetiyo]

we still dont know what gramia last wish, on ep 13 it only heard "heinz" but seems roid got more than that.

did gramia told roid to make heinz king of galaxy ?

[azrael]

Also do the ruins allow Heinz's song to var people even if they haven't had the water and apples?

The water and apples are just enhancers to make them more susceptible. Var is found throughout the galaxy but is much more prevalent in Delta's region of space due to Windermere fudging the numbers by using apples and water bottled at the ruins to make people more susceptible to the Wind Singer's song..

[Product9]

So, have we figured out how the Aerial Knights get around yet? It looks like they are projecting a fold from Windermere or something.

[TehPW]

So, have we figured out how the Aerial Knights get around yet? It looks like they are projecting a fold from Windermere or something.

Have we agree that they are this generation's version of Gundam Wing (considering how often they curb stump the NUNS)?

[This Confuses Gamlin]

So, have we figured out how the Aerial Knights get around yet? It looks like they are projecting a fold from Windermere or something.

Considering that the Sigur Valens's demonstrated strengths in Fold manipulation, it very well could be some sort of Fold "transporter" (in the Star Trek sense of the term) system, removing at least some of the need for the vehicles that it transports to have extra Fold boosters of their own, or only requiring very small ones.

It's probably not (entirely) the Lil'Drakens, as the Knights usually lose several drones in each engagement and thus would have a difficult time getting home without them, so there is probably some system more attached to the Drakens. The Drakens always appear to have conformal pods mounted when they sortie, most of which appear to be used for micromissile storage, but maybe they've got a compact fold system in those as well.

Edited July 13, 2016 by This Confuses Gamlin

[tout-puissant]

Agreed considering that Macross Elysion is a new class of ship that the design probably been around at least 10yrs as the Macross Quarter must had been based on the mini-me version of it. Wanted to ask, which came first, the Macross Quarter design or the Macross Elysion design as it seems to have the same transformation process compared to the SDF or New Macross class ships.

Looking closely again at the ship that landed on Ragna in the episode 5 flashback, while I still think it's a different ship than the one we see in the present day, I'm now wondering if the earlier ship (which I still believe is a re-use of the Island One model from Frontier with a different set of buildings manually drawn in) doesn't have a ship docked to its front at all. Looking at that picture and taking its perspective into account, there may be an empty docking port up front, and what some people think is the ship's underside is actually one of the flanking structures aft of the actual port...

Regarding Elysion, my impression is that it had been sitting on Ragna for some time and hadn't just recently arrived. There's absolutely no evidence shown as to how long it's been there, other than the carriers have slightly worn paint on the flight deck as seen in episode 2 (no big deal, modern-day ships are constantly repainting). It could be only a couple years old, or it could be a couple decades old and/or represent an interm step in the reduction of Macross type ship sizes between the Battle and Quarter class ships. The fact that it's used by a civilian contractor and is not being tested out suggests that it's an older or proven design that the feds aren't using or have permitted to be built, perhaps like the VF-19P we saw on Zola.

But perhaps this should be discussed further on the Delta technology thread.

Mark

[spanner]

New intro is neither here nor there to be honest.. I mostly skip past them anyways.

And doesn't the nuns have anything other than shite loads of 20 year old VF-171 in their fighter arsenal?? Surely they'd have some VF-25 by now? Or even other types such as late model VF-19?? Those poor old 171 just get creamed!

[RedWolf]

New intro is neither here nor there to be honest.. I mostly skip past them anyways.

And doesn't the nuns have anything other than shite loads of 20 year old VF-171 in their fighter arsenal?? Surely they'd have some VF-25 by now? Or even other types such as late model VF-19?? Those poor old 171 just get creamed!

YF-24 derivatives all have ISC. Those ISC need Fold Quartz. Fold Quartz is heavily regulated as it is a vital component of Dimension Eaters. Dimension Eaters are heavily restricted and the NUN is wary of proliferation to terrorists.

NUNS branches get detuned versions of VF or monkey models that they'll have to upgrade themselves.

VF-19s and VF-22s in NUNS are reserved for elite squadrons like Macross 7's Diamond Force and Emerald Force and Frontier's Round Table, and special forces as well such as VF-X squadrons.

However over the years civilians like Racers and criminal elements such as terrorist and pirates have had access to those units. PMCs as well.

[azrael]

And doesn't the nuns have anything other than shite loads of 20 year old VF-171 in their fighter arsenal?? Surely they'd have some VF-25 by now? Or even other types such as late model VF-19?? Those poor old 171 just get creamed!

It doesn't matter because those birds would have been creamed by the writers who are hell bent on showing the same 6 Sv-262s steamrolling through NUNS fleets.

VF-19 and VF-22 production lines never reached VF-171 levels of production since the former was a b*tch to fly and ended up only being used by a few groups (and then get regulated into oblivion with monkey models). The VF-22 was a SpecOps plane so that one would never have seen a large deployment.

[Saruta]

I don't like the animation in the opening and ending. But I cast a positive vote because I really liked the references to modern international politics (media lies and all). Also white smoke - we have a villain!

Gramia was not entirely villainous, nor was Keith, certainly not Heinz. Now we get Roid, who seems to be double-crossing Windermere, too.

I mean, Windermere was in a position to consolidate its hold on the cluster. With cards played right they would not even have to rely on mind control except as a threat, occasionally executed.

But a battle against all of the galaxy - and with NUNS having the fold jammers?

They defeated one NUNS fleet. The fleet was likely sent to battle-test the jammers. The absence of Macross-class ships seems perfectly logical to me - if the jammers were fail, NUNS command expected Windermere to take the fleet over. and did not want Windermere to get a Macross-class in the deal.

The defeat was attributable to one pilot powered-up by fold-syncing with Heinz. (Just like Hayate syncs with Freyja, Keith syncs with Heinz, and perhaps as we speak, a cute fujoshi in some hidden corner of Japan is watching the episode and having nosebleeds).

Roid did not take the fleet over, destroying it instead. Might be a waste (possibly even intentional waste) or perhaps he thought the ships in it were nothing interesting, what with Brisingr sector NUNS hardware already at his disposal.

Also, Roid displayed the Wind Singer to all of the galaxy. Before this TV transmission, the only glimpse of Heinz the other side got was through Freyja and Mikumo's visions, and possibly Freyja's personal experience (if she saw the prince while on Windermere; theoretically other Windermere defectors can exist). They would have to rely on police techniques to create a picture of him, and they did not know for sure he was the source of the waves. Thanks to Roid's boast, they know.

An obvious counter for NUNS exists. Send in many fleets, with fold jammers in each, and dimension weapons. Order them to destroy Windermere in a planet kill, or failing that, destroy Heinz. If all fleets attack at once, Keith will not have the time to take out all fold jammers in all fleets. Only one has to succeed. Total losses would be huge but this is a galaxy-wide threat, and if you man the fleets with Zentradi (the cultured-but-still-militarized kind seen in episode 1) you can get away with the public reaction more easily, as they don't leave as many grieving relatives behind.

That, or push Freyja and Mikumo into fold-duels with Heinz until Heinz hits the bucket. And without Heinz, Windermere is a sitting duck, Sigur Valens and all.

I don't think Roid was foolish enough to ignore the fact that he was throeing away a cluster win to get a new war with minuscule chances. So I think he has a hidden agenda and is not really working for Windermere; he has likely falsified Gramia's last will, too.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Saruta

[Zinjo]

Perhaps that vf22 pilot got mind controlled?

My theory is the VF-22 was the White Knight's SV flown by Keith with either a holo emitter to disguise it or the footage was edited to create a "Cassus Belli" on the planet aka false attack on the world of Windermere to rally the people behind a cause. A similar method used by the Nazi's in the Gleiwitz Incident to justify the invasion of Poland in 1939.

The subsequent DE explosion crashed Keith's plane in the process, hence the shot of Keith and Roid huddled next to a downed aircraft.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Zinjo

[TMBounty_Hunter]

So it's mentioned that the Wind Singer first showed up 150 years ago. Maybe that was Mikumo? Might be why Roid is interested in her and her memories of singing in the stadium.

[RedWolf]

If NUNS is going to raid Windermere they'd have to bust out the Fold Quartz equipped drives and Sound Jamming Systems as the region is covered in Fold Faults. Megaroad 4 accidentally found Windermere because they got blocked by Fold Fault there.

My theory is the VF-22 was the White Knight's SV flown by Keith with either a holo emitter to disguise it or the footage was edited to create a "Cassus Belli" on the planet aka false attack on the world of Windermere to rally the people behind a cause. A similar method used by the Nazi's in the Gleiwitz Incident to justify the invasion of Poland in 1939.

The subsequent DE explosion crashed Keith's plane in the process, hence the shot of Keith and Roid huddled next to a downed aircraft.

This is my theory as well. Perhaps Keith had a Guld memory suppression.

[azrael]

So it's mentioned that the Wind Singer first showed up 150 years ago.

No. It's been ~150 years since a Wind Singer became the ruler of Windermere.

[Seto Kaiba]

Considering that the Sigur Valens's demonstrated strengths in Fold manipulation, it very well could be some sort of Fold "transporter" (in the Star Trek sense of the term) system, removing at least some of the need for the vehicles that it transports to have extra Fold boosters of their own, or only requiring very small ones.

The most likely explanation is that the "camera" is simply cutting away from the fold effect before the ship generating it can emerge. On those occasions when the Aerial Knights seemingly defold alone, the fold effect never closes behind them the way it does on the two or three occasions where we see their fleet defold. That suggests there's something else still defolding.

However, the idea of a "fold teleporter" does have precedent. On Uroboros, a form of fold-based teleportation technology was used for instantaneous short distance travel within the planet's Protoculture ruins. (This was the effect for entering and leaving ruins and caves on the three world maps used in the Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy game... pairs of "fold stones" that, when activated, teleported you from one to the other.)

And doesn't the nuns have anything other than shite loads of 20 year old VF-171 in their fighter arsenal?? Surely they'd have some VF-25 by now? Or even other types such as late model VF-19?? Those poor old 171 just get creamed!

For many planets and fleets, there may not have been an immediate or pressing need to upgrade from the VF-171. Frontier and Galaxy went for the upgrade en masse because they were headed into what was, at the time, Vajra territory in full awareness of the fact that a VF-19 or VF-22 would be just as helpless in combat with the Vajra as a VF-171. Backwaters like the Brisingr cluster, that would only have had to worry about Zentradi or terrorists would naturally not see much reason to upgrade to the more costly, more difficult to mass produce 5th Generation VFs. The VF-171 was, and likely still is, an excellent, highly versatile fighter with great cost performance... it's just hopelessly out of its depth against the 5th Generation equivalent fielded in low numbers by the Aerial Knights of Windermere.

The VF-19 and VF-22 can't be fielded in large numbers by the regional NUNS as the result of arms export restrictions imposed in the wake of the Isamu's and Guld's little stunt on Earth back in 2040. The central New UN Forces like to have the biggest stick, after all... and they may have finished upgrading to 5th Generation VFs by now (possibly the VF-24). Emigrant forces can deploy a "monkey model" reduced capability version of the VF-19 or VF-22 in some small numbers, but both the restrictions on their construction and use and the high burden their performance places on the pilot in the absence of inertia store converter technology makes them impractical to employ in large numbers.

[kalvasflam]

would be interesting to see the type of VFs currently serving in the sol system.

I wonder if there are any fully AIed Ghosts around. I would bet that the sol system probably has a Macross or Battle class around beyond the standard Gitmos, Uragas, and Northamptons.

It would be absolutely hilarious though if sol only had VF-11s still

[zathras]

would be interesting to see the type of VFs currently serving in the sol system.

I wonder if there are any fully AIed Ghosts around. I would bet that the sol system probably has a Macross or Battle class around beyond the standard Gitmos, Uragas, and Northamptons.

It would be absolutely hilarious though if sol only had VF-11s still

It's likely that there would be new ships in orbit of Earth. Considering how there's so many ships&orbital weapons platforms in orbit of Earth when Isamu travelled to Earth in Macross Plus, it's a good chance that the older ships are handed down to the emigration fleet or liquidated for colony defense fleets. Other than the NorthHampton class being updated, most of the UNSpacy ships haven't change in design that much. So maybe the reason that those cannon fodder ships that the Knights had been easily blowing up are hand me down ships that had been sold off to civilian contractors like SMS or Chaos and were just upgraded with the latest technology.

Anyway we'll probably soon find out about Hayate's father. Maybe the reason that he wasn't liked was that he failed in shooting down the fighter that carried the Dimensional Eater resulting in a major loss of life for the human colony/base on Windermere.

Edited July 14, 2016 by zathras

[RedWolf]

would be interesting to see the type of VFs currently serving in the sol system.

I wonder if there are any fully AIed Ghosts around. I would bet that the sol system probably has a Macross or Battle class around beyond the standard Gitmos, Uragas, and Northamptons.

It would be absolutely hilarious though if sol only had VF-11s still

In VF-X2 at least they were still using VF-11Bs. VF-19As were with named pilots. That was in 2050 to 2051. We know the VF-171 first took flight in 2046. As seen with Ozma the 117th Research Fleet had the VF-171 as a mainstay in 2048.

Macross 7 was using the VF-11C variant so there may be some internal differences like the VF-19A does to the VF-19E.

Also Macross 13 or Battle 13 had massed produced X-9 Ghosts or AIF-9B as fodder.

[TehPW]

I don't think Roid was foolish enough to ignore the fact that he was throeing away a cluster win to get a new war with minuscule chances. So I think he has a hidden agenda and is not really working for Windermere; he has likely falsified Gramia's last will, too.

What if he isn't Windermerian at all? But another race of being? He keeps changing glasses for a reason...?

[squaresphere]

Warning, crackpot theorycraft incoming:

Ok what if Roid isn't really the origin point for this galactic war? From all the angles we've sliced it, a galactic war doesn't make any sense from the Windermere perspective. There's no benefit to them in over throwing NUNs, especially if NUNS actually offered peace talks! Their short lives, lack of martial materials and small armed forces are all weaknesses.

So what does make sense. What if over throwing NUNS was Epsilon's price to arm Windermere with the latest tech in VF's, refurbish and improve all the PC tech that's been shown! Heck there could also be other benefits they could have provided from the shadows like improved logistics, funding the hire of military trainers (sound familiar), elimination of rival leaders etc.

If Epsilon is truly made up of former anti UN forces, it makes the most sense at very little cost! Convince one planet that the UN is out to get them and use their innate ability to sow chaos across the galaxy? The cost is just arming a relatively small force and to further any PC tech found? Sounds way too good to be true!

Even if NUNS was able to beat back the Windermere, any material loss in NUNS would be gain to those anti UN forces. Possibly enabling the over throw of UN allied government all throughout space!

If we think about it, without Epsilon's backing could Windermere even operate and maintain the PC tech? They NEED the song amplifier to hold their new planets and solidify their positions of power. There's no way they'd bite the hand of Epsilon support.

Edited July 14, 2016 by squaresphere

[TehPW]

Warning, crackpot theorycraft incoming:

Ok what if Roid isn't really the origin point for this galactic war? From all the angles we've sliced it, a galactic war doesn't make any sense from the Windermere perspective. There's no benefit to them in over throwing NUNs, especially if NUNS actually offered peace talks! Their short lives, lack of martial materials and small armed forces are all weaknesses.

So what does make sense. What if over throwing NUNS was Epsilon's price to arm Windermere with the latest tech in VF's, refurbish and improve all the PC tech that's been shown! Heck there could also be other benefits they could have provided from the shadows like improved logistics, funding the hire of military trainers (sound familiar), elimination of rival leaders etc.

If Epsilon is truly made up of former anti UN forces, it makes the most sense at very little cost! Convince one planet that the UN is out to get them and use their innate ability to sow chaos across the galaxy? The cost is just arming a relatively small force and to further any PC tech found? Sounds way too good to be true!

Even if NUNS was able to beat back the Windermere, any material loss in NUNS would be gain to those anti UN forces. Possibly enabling the over throw of UN allied government all throughout space!

If we think about it, without Epsilon's backing could Windermere even operate and maintain the PC tech? They NEED the song amplifier to hold their new planets and solidify their positions of power. There's no way they'd bite the hand of Epsilon support.

has Epsilon even been shown yet? what if Weasel Face (and his NUNS cronies) are Epsilon?

Edited July 14, 2016 by TehPW

[Mr March]

Wasn't Roid the one who against Heinz pushing himself with too much singing? And now he wants to continue the war? Seems like Roid may have been hiding his true agenda?

Also do the ruins allow Heinz's song to var people even if they haven't had the water and apples?

I'm actually curious about this as well. However, i do fear this part of the story is being under-written at this point, so I'm hoping for more sooner rather than later. it would be nice if they avoided the problem Macross Frontier faced, which was not sufficiently providing enough detail and scope about the Macross Galaxy and Grace's own affiliations to give context to how the whole economic-political climate of the Vajra/Galaxy conflict came about.

[squaresphere]

has Epsilon even been shown yet? what if Weasel Face (and his NUNS cronies) are Epsilon?

Yep, they've shown up as the guys in the desert type head dresses talking about improving the ruin's song enhancement and the proto culture ship after the Elysion shot it.

[azrael]

I'm actually curious about this as well. However, i do fear this part of the story is being under-written at this point, so I'm hoping for more sooner rather than later. it would be nice if they avoided the problem Macross Frontier faced, which was not sufficiently providing enough detail and scope about the Macross Galaxy and Grace's own affiliations to give context to how the whole economic-political climate of the Vajra/Galaxy conflict came about.

That being said, I hope they reveal Roid-rage's plan for all of this. In Frontier, I didn't feel as bad because from around this point in Frontier we knew Grace was up to no good. For Delta, we've known Roid has some scheme in his head since episode 2. I think we can get on with it and get to his master plan.

[RedWolf]

has Epsilon even been shown yet? what if Weasel Face (and his NUNS cronies) are Epsilon?

Mr. Berger is a rep of the Epsilon Foundation. He's the guy who refurbished the Sigur Valens and brought the fold amps making it possible to control the ruins.

It wouldn't surprise me if his folks came from the Republic of Garelia. The fictional Middle Eastern country where the first shots of the Unification War started.

Oh interesting fact. While Macross Frontier happened in the core region of the Sagittarius spiral arm, the Brisingr globular cluster is located at the rim of the Sagittarius spiral arm. Planet Elysium in Macross VF-X is also at the Sagittarius arm of the galaxy.

[Mr March]

That being said, I hope they reveal Roid-rage's plan for all of this. In Frontier, I didn't feel as bad because from around this point in Frontier we knew Grace was up to no good. For Delta, we've known Roid has some scheme in his head since episode 2. I think we can get on with it and get to his master plan.

True, but I just feel like we should have more. Perhaps it's splitting hairs, but Roid feels a little better written than Grace so far. He feels much more human and less supernatural than Grace ever did. So I'd like it if we had more about him and his motives. Makes for a much more interesting villain.