Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 13 - READ 1st POST

[seti88]

Just saw the subs and yeah baby that's how you make a macross episode!

[Nazareno2012]

Once again i disagree with you and completely puzzled WHY you keep picture Valan a real good guy

Valan actually makes things worse no matter bomb denote earlier or not as it exposed the ruin true form as it allows Windermere use its function to full potential without excavating which take more time.Also the way he says as if he knew this would happen as subs mention he says about scientist predicted that and even have gall to massacred civilian and his own allies to exposed ruin and order retreat AFTER gathering data of the ruin instead of protecting planet to the last just show that he has evil hidden agenda and possibly one of the third party conspirator. I think Lady M knew that denoate the ruin will expose its true form and try to prevent it to happen. I wonder what reason you THINK Valan is good guy as he easily willing to civilian and his own allies for his own agenda?

He could be Delta's version of Leon from Frontier, maybe he would be arrested and court-martialed in the last episode when the conspiracy is uncovered.

[Einherjar]

Very convenient that Roid spent most of the battle standing right behind King Gramia on board the Protoculture ship and close enough to see him molt. He really does have glasses for every occasion!

Edited June 27, 2016 by Einherjar

[Marzan]

You know I think we all want another Milia, except we aren't that lucky.

It wouldn't hurt to have a female ace, a female idol, and a male... uh... male... uh.... I'm not sure what useful role to cast the male in. Gawd, it would be like the males are redundant except as pilots. Come to think of it, the closest Macross ever came to a male lead that wasn't a pilot was Mac7; and even then, Basara was a pilot.

Hibiki Kanzaki of Macross II was a reporter, not a pilot. And Macross II also has a female as the badass pilot in the form of Silvie Gena.

[Sandman]

I don't know. I don't think this episode hit the emotional marks it was trying to. Also the character animation seemed to be really crappy and i don't usually notice things like that. So far Delta has been a just ok series to me. There hasn't been an episode that made me go wow like frontier did with ep7. I usually will rewatch mecha scenes a few times after the initial viewing. I haven't really done that with Delta. I dunno maybe it's the music selection. The song used in the main sequence was a bad choice IMO.

Other spoiler things

-Hayate taking out Keith in pretty much the same way as Bogue in a previous episode was repetitious. They could've done something cooler.

-Hayate taking Messer's valk was played pretty flat and not as great as a moment as it should have been.

-After watching last weeks episode, i was expecting to see Elysion kick some ass like Quarter's debut. That doesn't quite happen.

-After Keith gets shot down, they do a fade to black. Kind of the reverse of what most people have been complaining about previous episodes. Mainly having the Aerial Knights retreating off screen. This time Hayate doesn't go after and finish off Keith.

-It was good to see an ex gear being used for once. Though you have to wonder how reliable these things are. They always seem to be sputtering out when you need them most.

-I kind of wonder about Arad's logic. Sending Delta squad against the White Knight minus two squad mates seems like a suicide mission considering previous history.

[grigolosi]

It looks like there may be a connection between the Mayan Islanders and the Windermerans. Gramia referred to the "true King" as Rudanjal Rom Mayan. I don't know but it sounds a little suspicious to me.....

Keith was damn lucky in that last point of the engagement, Hayates rounds did strike the cockpit unfortunately they looked high and to the right from the inside of the SV-262 cockpit.

I know everyone is like "oh Hayate inherited Messers aircraft, I seriously believe like he said to Mirage "We have a spare". I think he was more or less borrowing it since he needed an aircraft. But like always he will probably be told to continue using it in the next episode.

Ketchup Boy flying off was classic, take and your 57 varieties.......

Edited June 27, 2016 by grigolosi

[Saruta]

Neutral vote and my cursor hovered over Negative for a while. Animation ok, sometimes (mecha) even good, but I had a hard time suspending disbelief.

- Johnson's potshot at SV takes out the fold amplifier blindly?

- The Elysion takes a main cannon shot and suvrvives with moderate damage, good enough to shoot a cannon afterwards, with the captain and enough crew to perform the feats unscathed?

- Mikumo, on the other hand, now gets hurt, while she remained unscathed after taking an Itano Circus under a small force field?

Also music OP'ed, but that is par for the course in Macross. In this universe, Freyja's singing buffing Hayate and simultaneously impacting Keith, thos changing the balance between them, makes sense. But I really don't see why Hayate could not follow Keith to finish him off.

And I agree with the question - why does Kaos abandon the battle at that point? The original decision to retreat and take civilians did make sense, but the balance has started to shift following Freyja's and Johnson's antics. The Wind Singer was out for a time. Why not fold away the island ship with civilians but continue the battle, dealing more damage to Windermere forces? Even if they could not retake Ragna at this point, they could aim at grounding the SV there, which would give them a chance at retaking Al Shahal.

Also a question: what was the structure, apparently come kind of carrier ship, that the Walkure were on? I thought they were on top of the Island Ship, but when Freyja jumped off, the shib aoove her was not round. Also if they were not on the Island Ship, why did they see the shot from SV aimed right at them? And when Gramia said something about not allowing a threat to persist, I would have expected the SV to fire at the Walkure, not a bunch of random civilians?

[d3v]

What are the chances of...

Keith being shown to be, at the very least, severely injured next episode, considering that Hayate seems to have shot his cockpit?

[Scream Man]

i truly don't get how you could be a Macross fan and don't like this series. i mean ok, there are lots likle that, and thats cool, but i can't understand it. This is everything that makes Macross great. This goes down as one of my top 10 favorite single episodes in the franchise, not just this series.

i love this show.

What are the chances of...

Keith being shown to be, at the very least, severely injured next episode, considering that Hayate seems to have shot his cockpit?

thats my guess. He'll have a scar or mask or something.

[SebastianP]

Neutral vote and my cursor hovered over Negative for a while. Animation ok, sometimes (mecha) even good, but I had a hard time suspending disbelief.

Also a question: what was the structure, apparently come kind of carrier ship, that the Walkure were on? I thought they were on top of the Island Ship, but when Freyja jumped off, the shib aoove her was not round. Also if they were not on the Island Ship, why did they see the shot from SV aimed right at them? And when Gramia said something about not allowing a threat to persist, I would have expected the SV to fire at the Walkure, not a bunch of random civilians?

They were on the Aether the whole time, that's where their stage is with the pyramidal shield over it. And the Aether was between the Sigur Valens and the colony ship,

[areaseven]

Undoubtedly the best episode of the series. Can't wait to see the next episode.

[Product9]

It was good to see an ex gear being used for once. Though you have to wonder how reliable these things are. They always seem to be sputtering out when you need them most.

Hey, maybe Ex-Gears break sometimes, but I'd still rather have that than a current-day parachute. I've been reading ejection stories again...

About the fighter combat:

I still think it's mostly a style thing. We've been shown in previous Macross shows that multi-mode combat is the way to go for Valkyries. The Isamu vs Guld fight was multi-mode and spectacular, as was the (albeit far too short) fight between Alto and Brera in Sayonara no Tsubasa, which also gives us precedent for high-performance fighters with ISCs in an atmosphere using different modes to vie for an advantage. Fighter is shown in those instances to be mostly used for running away or re-positioning, because fighter is the fastest mode.

Unfortunately, it might be a lack of creativity on the part of the production staff, or, like I said before, it might be a stylistic choice (and that might just be me being optimistic), While I am enjoying the heck out of this series, I do miss the more interesting dogfights we've had in previous Macross shows.

Then again, maybe everyone in Delta just has a really strong fighter-mode preference.

That said, I really enjoyed this episode. It was super fun and exciting, even if it was a little predictable in some places (which can sometimes add to the excitement when you see something coming... but maybe that's me having a far too positive attitude). Really looking forward to what comes next.

Though, for the record, even if some parts have been predictable, this series does keep surprising me.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Product9

[Graham]

Damn, no Dead fish subs yet

[Marzan]

I have a question. Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, but has the word

"Macross“ been uttered once in this entire series? Maybe it has and I've failed to catch it, but according to me they keep on referring to the "Elysion" and nothing else. I wonder if it's just coincidence

[SebastianP]

I have a question. Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, but has the word

"Macross“ been uttered once in this entire series? Maybe it has and I've failed to catch it, but according to me they keep on referring to the "Elysion" and nothing else. I wonder if it's just coincidence

You definitely haven't been paying attention, because the Macross Elysion has been consistently referred to as such since we first laid eyes on it way back in episode 2. Hayate uses the name when he explains what it is to Frejya, and later Ernest Johnson introduces himself as the captain of Macross Elysion. And that was just in episode 2.

[Marzan]

You definitely haven't been paying attention, because the Macross Elysion has been consistently referred to as such since we first laid eyes on it way back in episode 2. Hayate uses the name when he explains what it is to Frejya, and later Ernest Johnson introduces himself as the captain of Macross Elysion. And that was just in episode 2.

Thanks. It's the old age you see. I start forgetting things.

[Roy Focker]

Neutral almost boarding on Negative.

The entire episode was basically one long fight scene with predictable out comes and predictable talking scenes. It could have benefitted if it is was 5 to 10 more minutes longer in length. An episode like this is too short for the amount of characters contained within.

[kamadoma]

Best episode so far. I don't think it was as good as MacF episode 7, but still pretty damn good. Lots of easter eggs as well.



For a moment I thought Chuck was gonna die too.






]

[Seto Kaiba]

Once again i disagree with you and completely puzzled WHY you keep picture Valan a real good guy

Valan actually makes things worse no matter bomb denote earlier or not as it exposed the ruin true form as it allows Windermere use its function to full potential without excavating which take more time.Also the way he says as if he knew this would happen as subs mention he says about scientist predicted that and even have gall to massacred civilian and his own allies to exposed ruin and order retreat AFTER gathering data of the ruin instead of protecting planet to the last just show that he has evil hidden agenda and possibly one of the third party conspirator. I think Lady M knew that denoate the ruin will expose its true form and try to prevent it to happen. I wonder what reason you THINK Valan is good guy as he easily willing to civilian and his own allies for his own agenda?

I'm not saying he's necessarily a good guy... just that he's literally the only halfway competent soldier we've seen on the protagonist side so far. Unless, of course, you want to take the view that "good is not necessarily nice".

Even if Valan's bomb made it worse, if they'd detonated on time like the military wanted to do they would've had the better part of a day to go back and blow the crap out of the extra part of the ruins that were hiding in super dimension space in an environment free of civilian casualties or friendly fire accidents. He showed a much more level head than Captain Johnson in that he didn't throw the lives of his troops away, kept his forces protecting the emigrant ship, and collected as much data on the enemy as he could before being forced to flee. He may not be the nicest man in the galaxy, but he is an effective and pragmatic soldier, which is far, FAR more than can be said for anyone at Kaos.

Any way you shake it, our heroes in Delta Platoon are "lawful stupid" and their bungling seems to actually end up helping Windermere.

Hibiki Kanzaki of Macross II was a reporter, not a pilot. And Macross II also has a female as the badass pilot in the form of Silvie Gena.

Macross II didn't just have one badass woman in the pilot's seat, it had an entire platoon of them: Silvie Gena's Fairy Platoon.

- Johnson's potshot at SV takes out the fold amplifier blindly?

- The Elysion takes a main cannon shot and suvrvives with moderate damage, good enough to shoot a cannon afterwards, with the captain and enough crew to perform the feats unscathed?

- Mikumo, on the other hand, now gets hurt, while she remained unscathed after taking an Itano Circus under a small force field?

Also music OP'ed, but that is par for the course in Macross. In this universe, Freyja's singing buffing Hayate and simultaneously impacting Keith, thos changing the balance between them, makes sense. But I really don't see why Hayate could not follow Keith to finish him off.

And I agree with the question - why does Kaos abandon the battle at that point? The original decision to retreat and take civilians did make sense, but the balance has started to shift following Freyja's and Johnson's antics. The Wind Singer was out for a time. Why not fold away the island ship with civilians but continue the battle, dealing more damage to Windermere forces? Even if they could not retake Ragna at this point, they could aim at grounding the SV there, which would give them a chance at retaking Al Shahal.

Also a question: what was the structure, apparently come kind of carrier ship, that the Walkure were on? I thought they were on top of the Island Ship, but when Freyja jumped off, the shib aoove her was not round. Also if they were not on the Island Ship, why did they see the shot from SV aimed right at them? And when Gramia said something about not allowing a threat to persist, I would have expected the SV to fire at the Walkure, not a bunch of random civilians?

Just as a few points of order...

- Surviving a shot from a heavy converging beam cannon isn't unprecedented by any means... it's happened a few times already in previous shows, most notably in "Blind Game".

- I'd assume Mikumo's injuries have something to do with the weapon being a heavy quantum fusion plasma beam instead of high explosives. As long as you block the shockwave and shrapnel of a bomb you're OK... but that beam was probably as hot as the surface of a star.

[squaresphere]

Positive vote for me, but I do agree Frontier was a much better experience at this point in it's airings

Just my observations and highlights

• Lucky shot for Ernest at the beginning of the ep, did feel it was a bit plot pulled because they didn't show it in ep 12 even though it would have fit time wise there.
• Hmm, my guess as to why the Aether was able to jump in was maybe they were able to hot load it's fold drive from the power from the rest of the Elysion and the other carrier
• I did like the fact their platoons folded in quickly with boosters. The VF-31a is so very sexy! I actually like the wings on it better than the customs
• NUNS officer is the most tactically sound person in the show. I was very surprised he would try to draw in the PC ship to try and eliminate it. Personally, that was too much of a gamble considering the risk of a VARS influenced turn coat.
• Sure it seems like he might have known about the PC ruins change but it felt like it was more of a theory than he knew exactly what would happen.
• I think all parties did as much as they could to limit civilian deaths as much as possible considering how powerful the VARS threat is and the risk of losing the whole sector.
• I do agree the song powerful was predictable but it was fun to watch!
• My question would be WTF was Arad doing this whole time! I mean the assumption has been he's as skilled as Messer was. Shouldn't he have been the one to engage the White Knight? Sure he basically sent the rest of Delta to 3v1 the WK but seriously. It would have made more tactical sense for Delta to engage the other knights while he tied up Keith.
• So know we're on to a space arc. YAY! I'll have to assume they're just going to limp along while making it to the closest NUNs base.

Edited June 27, 2016 by squaresphere

[Zinjo]

Seems the carrier is also the cannon. Can it dual wield?

So THAT's where it was. Sneaky bastards It does indeed make one wonder if both carrier ships are Quantum Cannon capable. It would certainly give the Elysion an interesting tactical advantage in battle.

[Zinjo]

Bloody hell. The Sigur Valens is...

...the visual love child of a Bishop Vajra and the Bird Human.

Rest of the episode: HOLY. [REDACTED].

Well we know one thing for sure now. The SDF Macross transformation was no happy accident. It would appear PC ships were designed to transform from way back.

[Midnight_Wyvern]

Now that I have watched the subs, holy crap that was even more amazing.

I really like how they're setting up the love triangle in this one. I mean, I'm always a fan of the male protagonist being completely oblivious just for the humor aspect, but I like how they're keeping it a little more low-key this time.

Also, I will NEVER get tired of these slow-mo midair transformation point-blank gun duels.

[Rbstr]

The Valan(?), the NUNS guy, is pretty clearly following an agenda besides saving the cluster from Windermerian invasion. He's probably more interested in how NUNS can use the Var and Protoculture tech. It's an amazing weapon, that Var.

Blowing up the ruins was anything but a "good plan" given what the universe should know about playing with protoculture crap: It's playing russian roulette. you've got chambers loaded with birdmen, core-reaching energy conduits, evil trans-dimensional beings ect.

NUNS guy got a convenient excuse to blow up some ruins and collect some data. He gave no frakks about protecting anything.

Other responses to other posters:

Of course Windermere is going to continue to be strong. They're the antagonists. It's their job at this point. Zentradi, Vajra, Protodelvin...these antagonists vastly outmatched the heroes. This criticism is hilarious.

Part of the point of this half-season was to demonstrate that Windermere's song is an extremely powerful weapon - it actually turns NUNS's superior force against them. Chaos is not a spacy-level entity, they can keep a couple handfulls of pilots unvared only when they're present on the battlefield. Might win a battle, you aren't winning a war that way.

Ernest being a "loser" is a proverb about him choosing/being on the underdog's side not an actual statement on competency. The attempted attack at Al-Shahal was an act of desperation to hit them before they could sing again and a smart move that backfired. Waiting at Ragna would have been no better: The SV would have been capable of the full-buffed song and things would have gone just as poorly. Really worse, the King would have lived and he'd still be out for some human-cide.

My main complaint is how Mirage has been kind of useless as a pilot. The implication you get from non-battle scenes is that she's good but not great stacked against he family she looks bad. But she's mostly getting mini-damsel-in-distresed-ed and it's kinda lame. Story wise everything could have happened the same but she could have looked a bit less helpless.

THOUGH: I do like where it's going a bit with her promotion and actions this episode. She was really doing some tactical commanding in the battle. She's well cut for that. Sure it wasn't going amazing, but Keith is simply supposed to be one of those unfair kind of Aces. Also Hayate telling her "Fly like you want" and her saying "It's not that easy" means we'll see her power up eventually through character development.

I'm excited for "Elysion on the run" for an episode or two.

I think next episode is Freyja and Hayate and/or Mirage trapped in the ship someplace ala SDFM.

Hayate has grown on me as well. IMO he's got the best personality of all the main protags now. Sure he was a slacker but he got over it. I like his and Freyja's playful antagonizing and his and Mirage's sort of tag-team brains(her)/brawn(him) thing developing.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Rbstr

[Tochiro]

Ep.13 discussion is up!

http://www.macrossworld.com/speakerpodcast-ep-55-macrossΔ-ep-13-spoilercast/

[grigolosi]

I'm not saying he's necessarily a good guy... just that he's literally the only halfway competent soldier we've seen on the protagonist side so far. Unless, of course, you want to take the view that "good is not necessarily nice".

Even if Valan's bomb made it worse, if they'd detonated on time like the military wanted to do they would've had the better part of a day to go back and blow the crap out of the extra part of the ruins that were hiding in super dimension space in an environment free of civilian casualties or friendly fire accidents. He showed a much more level head than Captain Johnson in that he didn't throw the lives of his troops away, kept his forces protecting the emigrant ship, and collected as much data on the enemy as he could before being forced to flee. He may not be the nicest man in the galaxy, but he is an effective and pragmatic soldier, which is far, FAR more than can be said for anyone at Kaos.

Any way you shake it, our heroes in Delta Platoon are "lawful stupid" and their bungling seems to actually end up helping Windermere.

Seto you are correct on Valans character. That is the burden of command. Most famous military officers have had to make a call that risked or costs lives for the greater good. making the call to use any weapon as destructive as that would not and does not come easily. But when faced with the choice of allowing a highly sophisticated weapon/device of unknown or function fall into the hands of a group as elitest and sociopathic as the Windermerans or blowing it up and potentially sacrificing lives he made the most logical choice he could with little time to contemplate it. Ole' Gramia sacrificed all but one of his ships to the Reaction bomb. He then went on to show the true face of his demeanor by ordering the destruction of everyone opposing him including the civilians. Command sucks and hard decisions don't come easy or lightly.

[kalvasflam]

Hibiki Kanzaki of Macross II was a reporter, not a pilot. And Macross II also has a female as the badass pilot in the form of Silvie Gena.

To clarify, I meant real Macross... I just don't consider II to be real.

One thing I noticed, Garmia seem to have been psychic or something, he was telling them to redirect the barrier before the explosion, where as Roid was just going, "huh?" Roid is now in charge... may be he is just play acting all along and will be the evil bastard we all hope he can be.

But how interesting, he changes glasses right after Garmia kicks the bucket, it doesn't show his face for that second, but it wouldn't surprise me if he had a crap eating grin plastered all over it for a second or two.

Also, good catch on the fact that the bomb seems to have taken out a number of smaller Windermere ships. I wouldn't mind seeing those ships in action though, I don't even think I've seen them shot once as yet.

I'm hoping the rest of the series will accelerate from here, storywise, this is just not as strong as Frontier, but I think the singing is on par at this point, and there is a chance to exceed Frontier.

Edited June 27, 2016 by kalvasflam

[Marzan]

To clarify, I meant real Macross... I just don't consider II to be real.

You, Me, outside now, no mods allowed....

I jest. But as you can see, Macross II has a lot of redeeming features, including a more progressive portrayal of women in combat

[SebastianP]

Ep.13 discussion is up!

http://www.macrossworld.com/speakerpodcast-ep-55-macrossΔ-ep-13-spoilercast/

Listening to the podcast now, some immediate comments...

At a guess, the reason only Aether was sent on ahead was because Johnson wanted to keep the Hemera and its cannon close by. Sending the ships individually and then arriving to find that oops, Sigur Valens has shot them down and now the Elysion doesn't have a cannon to shoot back with would be kind of stupid. Also, if the fold drive uses the same capacitors as the big gun (which is plausible - if the Aether had had their capacitors charged they may have taken a shot with their own cannon), sending the Hemera ahead as well would mean that not only would the Elysion have to find and dock with one of its arms, it would have had to charge it too, delaying the firing of the gun.

[kalvasflam]

You, Me, outside now, no mods allowed....

I jest. But as you can see, Macross II has a lot of redeeming features, including a more progressive portrayal of women in combat

Ah yes, redeeming features and progressive portrayal of women...

- Silvie sleeping with her boss.

- Silvie with her other pilot boyfriend

- Silvie with the reporter

- Thank god she didn't get her claws into Feff.... basically, if you look at it, she got portrayed as a slu* who knowingly jumped from A to B to C in the course of what... five to six epsiodes?

But let's talk about her abilities in combat... let's see the typical crying about how things are hopeless, final battle. I'm sorry, I've seen progressive, and if this portrayal of the lead female character is considered progressive, I hate to see what regressive means.

As you can see, not a big fan of Mac II, although in fairness their Valks looked pretty interesting.

Edited June 27, 2016 by kalvasflam

[Seto Kaiba]

You, Me, outside now, no mods allowed....

I jest. But as you can see, Macross II has a lot of redeeming features, including a more progressive portrayal of women in combat

Amen, brother!

I was really, REALLY hoping for Mirage to be more impressive than she's been so far... it's been so long since we've had a woman in the cockpit who put the boys to shame, like Milia, Komilia (M2 timeline ver.), Sylvie, or Therese.

My remaining hope is that hanging around with Hayate will let some of his more fluid, intuitive piloting rub off on her and let her achieve true greatness.

[SebastianP]

I was really, REALLY hoping for Mirage to be more impressive than she's been so far... it's been so long since we've had a woman in the cockpit who put the boys to shame, like Milia, Komilia (M2 timeline ver.), Sylvie, or Therese.

My remaining hope is that hanging around with Hayate will let some of his more fluid, intuitive piloting rub off on her and let her achieve true greatness.

Well, now that the battle is over, and they're probably going to have to consolidate for a while anyway, I'm betting we're going to end up seeing some dance lessons. Hayate's mid-season powerup was song- and mecha swap powered, what Mirage needs is to learn how to "read the wind" like Hayate does, which probably involves learning how to fly - and dance - for fun.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, now that the battle is over, and they're probably going to have to consolidate for a while anyway, I'm betting we're going to end up seeing some dance lessons. Hayate's mid-season powerup was song- and mecha swap powered, what Mirage needs is to learn how to "read the wind" like Hayate does, which probably involves learning how to fly - and dance - for fun.

Considering Hayate's style, I'm not sure if it'll be Footloose or Saturday Night Fever... but either way, if we get that we're in for a LOT of blushing Mirage.

[Zinjo]

To clarify, I meant real Macross... I just don't consider II to be real.

One thing I noticed, Garmia seem to have been psychic or something, he was telling them to redirect the barrier before the explosion, where as Roid was just going, "huh?" Roid is now in charge... may be he is just play acting all along and will be the evil bastard we all hope he can be.

But how interesting, he changes glasses right after Garmia kicks the bucket, it doesn't show his face for that second, but it wouldn't surprise me if he had a crap eating grin plastered all over it for a second or two.

Also, good catch on the fact that the bomb seems to have taken out a number of smaller Windermere ships. I wouldn't mind seeing those ships in action though, I don't even think I've seen them shot once as yet.

I'm hoping the rest of the series will accelerate from here, storywise, this is just not as strong as Frontier, but I think the singing is on par at this point, and there is a chance to exceed Frontier.

It is "real Macross" just like all the other productions. It is in an alternate time line.

Even the "Official Continuity" isn't carved in granite as per the show's creator. If something doesn't fit from what came before, then it becomes "alternate reality" or takes on mantle of "Hey it's just a dramatic representation of actual historical events..."

I like his position, but it makes canonheads nuts!

As you can see, not a big fan of Mac II, although in fairness their Valks looked pretty interesting.

Clearly. So much so, that I am in doubt you have ever seen it....

Edited June 27, 2016 by Zinjo

[UN Spacy]

They have balls enough to give pretty boy Keith a nice scar as a memento?