Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 12 - READ 1st POST

[David Hingtgen]

I thought that's what simulators where for. I mean, Alto trained on a simulator and then jump right into a vf-25 (top tech at that time), no vf-1 for him, and Hayate at least used that crane robot, so he has that advantage at least. I just find it odd that they used a 60 year old model for trining.

The T-38 design is now 57 years old, and the main jet trainer for the USAF.

[Seto Kaiba]

I thought that's what simulators where for. I mean, Alto trained on a simulator and then jump right into a vf-25 (top tech at that time), no vf-1 for him, and Hayate at least used that crane robot, so he has that advantage at least. I just find it odd that they used a 60 year old model for trining.

Alto was a pilot with at least a full year's training in a vocational school's space pilot program behind him... implied, by the novels and that short story, to have been partly logged in a VF-1C.

Presumably the (New) UN Spacy uses something more modern or has a better simulator or something of that nature. SMS and Kaos are both civilian-owned corporations are limited in what they can legally buy, weapons-wise.

[SebastianP]

Nah man, being able to go supersonic isn't anything special for a variable fighter in Macross... even the ones powered by conventional jet turbofans could easily exceed Mach 2. The VF-1 Valkyrie's one of the very few that wasn't capable of hypersonic flight, and needed a decent run-up to go supersonic. The civilian market ones have the lowest thrust-to-weight ratio of any VF with thermonuclear reaction engines (potentially including the VF-0+ Phoenix Plus if my research has borne accurate fruit), and if you take the VF-5000 out of the equation the next nearest production model has 33% more get-up-and-go. It's the oldest, slowest, simplest Valkyrie they could lay hands on... and in terms of the gap of power between the training plane and the modern fighter, it's really is like pitting mom's old minivan against a supercar.

It's nothing special...for a variable fighter, which is in itself a special category of its own. Kind of like how an F-40 is nothing special... for a supercar.

You can teach someone to drive in the family's old beater, because it's docile and won't kill you instantly if you make a noob mistake. Teaching someone to drive an open-wheel race car is a somewhat different matter, and requires specialized training aids- such as purpose-built training car or an older, not as fast open-wheel race car that will kill you slightly less instantly for a noob mistake. (The "lesser formulas" for open wheeled racing are all basically a progression of increasingly advanced trainers for the real deal, which is Formula One.)

Similarly, you teach the basics of flight in a docile plane because it won't kill you when you make a mistake. You teach flying a fighter in something a bit more temperamental, like an older fighter or a purpose-built trainer. But just like how "trainer race cars" are still race cars enough that there are actual leagues for them, fighter trainers are still fighters enough that most of them are still expected to sortie at least as ground attack aircraft in case of a war. No one will ever mistake a fighter trainer for a people-mover or trash hauler.

The VF-1 is an aircraft that people still dream of flying in the Macross universe, despite it being nearly sixty years old; for the same reasons why people still dream of flying the F4U Corsair, or the Spitfire, or the P-51 Mustang, despite them being more than 70 years old in our world. They were the best, they won a war, and they'll still fly rings around anything you're likely to be able to afford new.

Edited June 24, 2016 by SebastianP

[Seto Kaiba]

It's nothing special...for a variable fighter, which is in itself a special category of its own. Kind of like how an F-40 is nothing special... for a supercar.

Y'see... that might've been the case initially, but that stopped being true several decades before Macross Delta.

Not only have Valkyries essentially replaced most other forms of military combat aircraft, they've also followed destroids into civilian markets as specialized utility vehicles. By 2047, the civilian versions of the VF-1 were not just within the reach of the super-wealthy or the megacorporations, they were accessible to moderately wealthy civilians. I'm not talking millionaires either, I'm talking retired soldiers and elected officials and, in one memorable case, a singer from a backwater planet. There's literally a military VF-1 variant intended to capitalize on the fact that the VF-1 is so common in civilian service that the concept of a mecha used for undercover operations is actually viable.

Kaos is a megacorporation and they could probably afford a better class of training aircraft if they really wanted one. Mihoshi Academy is a vocational school. That they can afford MULTIPLE VF-1's for a space pilot training program for high school students really shows how the Valkyrie has become a thoroughly unqualified "nothing special".

Similarly, you teach the basics of flight in a docile plane because it won't kill you when you make a mistake. You teach flying a fighter in something a bit more temperamental, like an older fighter or a purpose-built trainer. But just like how "trainer race cars" are still race cars enough that there are actual leagues for them, fighter trainers are still fighters enough that most of them are still expected to sortie at least as ground attack aircraft in case of a war. No one will ever mistake a fighter trainer for a people-mover or trash hauler.

That's another contention that doesn't quite pan out in the Macross universe. We have plenty of examples of people who learned the basics of flight in a variable fighter like a civilian market VF-1. Alto Saotome's one. The jerk who played Shin Kudo in the Birdhuman movie is another. Vanquish league racers Nicolas Berthier and Magdalena Zielonaska also fit that category. So too does Hayate Immelmann.

It's also worth noting that you could "mistake" a fighter trainer for a utility aircraft in this case... but it wouldn't be a mistake, because one of the most popular civilian models of Valkyrie is literally a detuned trainer used for utility work like construction, starship fabrication, wildlife management, or simply as a hobby plane.

The VF-1 is an aircraft that people still dream of flying in the Macross universe, despite it being nearly sixty years old; for the same reasons why people still dream of flying the F4U Corsair, or the Spitfire, or the P-51 Mustang, despite them being more than 70 years old in our world. They were the best, they won a war, and they'll still fly rings around anything you're likely to be able to afford new.

Can't honestly say I've ever heard a character express a dream to fly a VF-1 in the more recent decades of the Macross universe...

Edited June 24, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Saruta]

I would apreciate some enlightenment as to where (as in series, novels, etc) one can see civilian market Valkyries. I seem to have missed this part.

(Basara's does not count, it was military surplus by way of connections).

[BlueMax]

I would apreciate some enlightenment as to where (as in series, novels, etc) one can see civilian market Valkyries. I seem to have missed this part.

(Basara's does not count, it was military surplus by way of connections).

Macross 7:

The episode where civillian VF-1s (and de-militarised Destroids) make appearances

Macross Dynamite 7:

VF-1 Whale Hunting Valks

Possibly VA-3s used by the whale poachers

Edited June 24, 2016 by BlueMax

[Seto Kaiba]

I would apreciate some enlightenment as to where (as in series, novels, etc) one can see civilian market Valkyries. I seem to have missed this part.

Oh, numerous titles...

The first occurrence of a civilian market variable fighter was actually in Macross II: Lovers Again... with the Takachihof Corp. VC-079 used by SNN. Official continuity materials for that parallel world timeline mention that it's actually the second civilian-market fighter by that corporation (a follow-up to an earlier model developed in the 2050's).

Shortly thereafter, Macross 7 introduced civilian market Valkyries in several episodes of the show's first half. City-7's mayor, Milia Jenius, revealed that she had a privately owned VF-1J Valkyrie in Ep13, and we're shown two episodes later that she's far from the only one in the city to have a privately owned VF-1 when the government hosted a fair with a "try your hand at a Valkyrie" event as a thinly-disguised attempt to find recruits for a citizens militia after City-7 was hijacked by the vampires.

Also, in Macross Dynamite 7 we see a number of civilian-owned Valkyries. In the first episode, we see privately-owned VT-1 Ostrich units being used on (and in orbit of) Zola by both the galactic whale poachers and private citizens like the Hoyly family. We also get a "blink and you'll miss it" moment where a modified VT-1 is shown being used in the construction of the new Battle-7 (and we've tentatively dubbed it the "Battroid Work" on the Macross Mecha Manual... which I guess trips off the tongue less awkwardly than "Workyrie"). The poachers also had VA-3C units, though it's unclear if those are civilian market models or something obtained through black market channels like the VF-17D that Liza Hoyly stole from them to escape.

In Macross VF-X2, Critical Path corp. CEO Manfred Brando had a privately-owned VF-17S Nightmare... but that's down to him being super-wealthy.

In the Macross Frontier novelization and the Macross Frontier short story "Actor's Sky" published in Macross Ace magazine, we have the civilian market VF-1C Valkyrie used by Mihoshi Academy's pilot training program.

Macross the Ride also offers us numerous examples of privately-owned variable fighters of a variety of models. Protagonist Hakuna Aoba has a privately owned, customized VF-1X++ Valkyrie Double Plus as his chosen racing plane for competing in Vanquish League ultimate class races. Likewise, Chelsea Scarlett privately purchased not one but THREE VF-11B Thunderbolt airframes that were being sold off by the New UN Spacy escort fleet and used the parts to build one working custom VF-11B. Reporter Rose Guryunesilt and her pilot "D." Aivori have a privately owned VF-11D Custom as well. Nicolas Berthier may actually own the VF-9E he flies, and be using sponsor money to pay for its maintenance.

In Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy, numerous NPC escort/protection mission objectives are privately owned Valkyries of various makes and models. Hunter's Guild head Mei Ririon also has an apparently privately owned VF-27γ Lucifer.

Edit: Spelling!

(Basara's does not count, it was military surplus by way of connections).

Not surplus, it was a test article from a UN Forces black project... and he was either smart enough to know he didn't want to know where it came from, or simply too thick to wonder. I'm undecided on which.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[RedWolf]

http://macross.jp/delta/glossary/
Google Translation

Glossary is anybody is interested.

Carlisle is where the NUNS base was. The dimension weapon blowing up lead to a ceasefire. The after the war the NUNG implemented trade sanctions on Windermere after being independent.

Wind of song There hand

One of the tradition handed down to Windermere. Singer of the wind, including the dragon bird by its voice, that it is possible to attend the wind and the earth and the heart. While it is often appears in the royal lineage, rare exceptions exist.

Rudan Jarre Lom-Mayan

Sacred words transmitted from generation to generation in Windermere royal family, meaning "in the name of the true king."

There could be some connection to the Protoculture that manipulated the genes of the Mayan tribe on Earth.

[azrael]

Carlisle is where the NUNS base was. The dimension weapon blowing up lead to a ceasefire. The after the war the NUNG implemented trade sanctions on Windermere after being independent.

That would sound about right about sanctions.

[kalvasflam]

This reminds me, when are we going to get some nice Zentradi action with the Regult/Quad hybrids? Some of those look very entertaining.

[Seto Kaiba]

This reminds me, when are we going to get some nice Zentradi action with the Regult/Quad hybrids? Some of those look very entertaining.

Possibly next episode... Gramia and co. did Var the population of Al Shahal, and that seems to be where the cluster's NUNS Marines garrison force is based.

[Zinjo]

The VF-1 is an aircraft that people still dream of flying in the Macross universe, despite it being nearly sixty years old; for the same reasons why people still dream of flying the F4U Corsair, or the Spitfire, or the P-51 Mustang, despite them being more than 70 years old in our world. They were the best, they won a war, and they'll still fly rings around anything you're likely to be able to afford new.

That's a very appropriate analogy. All three prop fighters I'd love to fly..

[Dio]

In Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy, numerous NPC escort/protection mission objectives are privately owned Valkyries of various makes and models. Hunter's Guild head Mei Ririon also has an apparently privately owned VF-27γ Lucifer.

I was just going to say, relative cost and performance between Valkyrie models can be easily tabulated via the Macross 30 parts-to-build scale.

VF-22 Gamlin version still dominates all others.

[RedWolf]

That would sound about right about sanctions.

It makes sense the crew of the freighter that Freyja was on wanted her not going about. It would identify them as smugglers.

[Seto Kaiba]

It makes sense the crew of the freighter that Freyja was on wanted her not going about. It would identify them as smugglers.

Or, potentially, get them accused of "human" trafficking...

Unrelated: I just realized why it's called Var syndrome. One of Var's duties in Norse mythos was to punish those who break oaths or agreements... and that's exactly what Windermere accuses the New UN Government of doing.

[David Hingtgen]

Even if civilians CAN get old VF-1's, still doesn't mean they're common or easy to obtain.

Old fighter jets (MiG-17, F-86, etc) are around, owned by civilians--many of whom are ex-military pilots. But there will still be the F-15/F-22 demo pilot at that same airshow, offering LOADS of cash for the chance to fly one, just once, just for a minute. (and the amount they'll offer for a P-51 or F4U.....they're practically giving away the keys to their Vettes)

Legendary planes, will always be legendary planes.

[Sildani]

Let me just add FW-190 and Me-109, and the Mosquito, to the list.

Not much to add about the episode. Loved the straight on view of the Windermere fighter. Thanks Seto for the Var name origin. Makes good sense.

[RNietzsche]

Not sure if spoilers are necessary given that it pertains to info from the website and previous episodes, but I'll keep them anyway.

That still doesn't tell me what the rest of the chain of command looks like. Does Aether actually *have* it's own captain? Hemera surely must have, given that it went on an op alone, but how does that person fit into the general command structure of the ship? One option I'm looking at is that Johnson's 2IC commands Hemera (and the whole Elysion when Johnson takes Aether out on a mission), but we've never *seen* said 2IC.

Then again, we only saw Global's 2IC in meetings and when he and Misa went to Alaska anyway. (Misa being the ship's actual XO is preposterous in general, at least until after the Rain of Death when the other senior officers aboard moved on to bigger things).

A nimitz class aircraft carrier has three captain ranked officers, the CO, RO, and XO, for the operation of the ship (there are a couple more in the air group). In macross, the full SDF sized carriers seem to be about equivalent in importance (justifiable to have its own flag officer at times)

Based on that, Elysion would probably

only merit one captain rank officer, with a couple commanders for the arm ships. I'm not hip to the japanese, but johnson may not even be captain rank, he would still be called captain since he is in command.

Then again, elysion only seems to support 5 aircraft...so maybe aether and hemera are just empty shells when the big guy is out

Edited June 27, 2016 by RNietzsche

[Seto Kaiba]

Based on that, Elysion would probably

only merit one captain rank officer, with a couple commanders for the arm ships. I'm not hip to the japanese, but johnson may not even be captain rank, he would still be called captain since he is in command.

Kaos isn't an actual military too, so their practices may differ.

With respect to rank, I don't believe Ernest Johnson's rank has ever actually been given. He's always referred to with Kanchō (艦長), which is a title rather than a rank and is translated as "Captain" in the sense of "Captain of a ship". To avoid confusion, I often translate this as "shipmaster". The commanding officer of a Macross-type ship is usually either a Colonel (like Battle-7's Max Jenius or Macross Quarter's Jeffrey Wilder) or a Brigadier General (like SDF-1's Bruno J. Global or Battle Frontier's Pelliot).

Then again, elysion only seems to support 5 aircraft...so maybe aether and hemera are just empty shells when the big guy is out

So far, the largest number of fighters we've seen launched from the Macross Elysion is 21... divided into four known platoons: Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Delta. Delta was down to four men, so that means the other three platoons were six, six, and five.

[RNietzsche]

I forgot that Spacy uses airforce rankings for the English translations, so a Captain (rank) would never be a captain (commander) of something like Elysium. Darn Spacy (and fleets in general in macross) having ships commanded by colonels.

[SebastianP]

I forgot that Spacy uses airforce rankings for the English translations, so a Captain (rank) would never be a captain (commander) of something like Elysium. Darn Spacy (and fleets in general in macross) having ships commanded by colonels.

Do they actually? I don't remember seeing any Japanese material that actually gave an English rank, and in Japanese the ranks are all the same. The translations tend to confuse the issue (the official subs for Macross mixes army and navy style ranks, we have lieutenant commanders and admirals on one hand, and majors and generals on the other), and people keep getting referred to by their job titles rather than their ranks (like Max being "kansho" on in Macross 7, or Roy and Hikaru being "taicho" in the original.)

[Seto Kaiba]

Do they actually?

Yes.

I don't remember seeing any Japanese material that actually gave an English rank, and in Japanese the ranks are all the same. The translations tend to confuse the issue (the official subs for Macross mixes army and navy style ranks, we have lieutenant commanders and admirals on one hand, and majors and generals on the other), and people keep getting referred to by their job titles rather than their ranks (like Max being "kansho" on in Macross 7, or Roy and Hikaru being "taicho" in the original.)

Barring one minor exception/error in Macross Zero, when ranks have been shown on-screen in written form they have always been written in English and they have been Army/Air Force ranks... even for individuals who do not belong to the (New) UN Spacy like SMS or Kaos personnel.

The earliest occurrence I know of is in Super Dimension Fortress Macross episode 10 "Blind Game", where we get our first up-close look at an ES-11D Cat's Eye recon plane. The crew stencils on the double canopy identify its crew as being F/Lieut M. Hayase and S/Sgt. H. Iwata. Now, since Misa's rank is given in Japanese as 中尉 (Chūi) that makes it contextually obvious F/Lieut is "First Lieutenant" (rather than, say, the RAF rank of "Flight Lieutenant, equivalent to a Captain in the USAF) and of course S/Sgt. is Staff Sergeant. Likewise, in Macross Plus, Isamu's rank in his personnel file is given as "First Lieutenant", and we get a good look at his superior officer's door tag while he's punching it, which proclaims that office to belong to Colonel Millard Johnson. In Macross Delta's 11th episode, when we're shown the list of Alpha and Beta platoon candidates for Delta Platoon's fifth man, all eight candidate bios display Army/Air Force rankings (though they are somewhat hard to see, being printed quite small).

On rare occasions, model kit box art has shown Naval and/or incorrect ranks... I know of two of Tenjin's pieces that have this issue, one of which displays Shin Kudo's rank as Lt. (JG) and the other displays Roy's rank as LT.

WRT subtitles... often fansubbers miss the memo that Macross's creators want the ranks in-series translated as Army/Air Force ranks. The official subs for the original Macross series do not use naval ranks, but they do render the titles of 提督 (Teitoku) and 艦長 (Kanchō) as "Admiral" and "Captain" respectively. The actual meaning of those terms is "commanding officer of a fleet" and "commanding officer of a ship" respectively, my personal preference being to translate them in less ambiguous terms as "shipmaster" and "master of the fleet".

There have been one or two Macross releases in the west that DID confuse the rank systems. Viz Media's translation of the official Macross II: Lovers Again manga notoriously used a somewhat archaic form of naval ranks in its translation, so Silvie Gena was presented as a "Sublieutenant" and Nex Gilbert as a "Lieutenant". The US Renditions dub of Macross II also notably changed the rank of Nex Gilbert from Captain to Major in the dub, to avoid the confusion between Captain in the OF-2 sense and Captain in the "commands a ship" sense.

Edit: Realized I had "Captain" and "Admiral" switched in that second-to-last paragraph.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Chronocidal]

Even if civilians CAN get old VF-1's, still doesn't mean they're common or easy to obtain.

Old fighter jets (MiG-17, F-86, etc) are around, owned by civilians--many of whom are ex-military pilots. But there will still be the F-15/F-22 demo pilot at that same airshow, offering LOADS of cash for the chance to fly one, just once, just for a minute. (and the amount they'll offer for a P-51 or F4U.....they're practically giving away the keys to their Vettes)

Legendary planes, will always be legendary planes.

By this point, I would actually figure the VF-1s might be manufactured on the private market, similar to how companies have purchased the rights to produce brand new P-51 mustangs for private and international use.

What actually does surprise me about the Macross universe in general is that we don't really see many purpose-built civilian craft anymore (or I just don't remember any besides Hikaru's fanracer and fanliner). Nearly all of the privately owned vehicles are either retired military models, or derivatives of them.