Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 12 - READ 1st POST

[Zinjo]

With Gramia running, I guess he doesn't want to play fair like Ernest said he use to talk up. I'm gonna say it again, Windermere needs to suffer a "L" on their record. Otherwise, this is gonna get boring, really fast. The only reason Windermere is hijacking forces is they know they would lose a straight fight. Their fleet is made up of only small ships. Their only big ship is the refitted Protoculture ship, which is also not something of their own making, i.e., they essentially hijacked it like they've been doing to all the opposition. And with what, 1 SDF-type vessel coming at them, they run. The combine Al Shahal and Windermere fleet would likely be able to take on a small task force coming at them. What did Messer say, there's no such thing as a fair fight in combat? So Gramia is saying even with 2 fleets, he wouldn't win and decides to play tag??

I understand the frustration. I felt exactly the same about Basara in M7. However, I am inclined to believe Gramia was baiting Johnson to come after him and leave his planetary base. Gramia may not have been the best fleet tactics student, but he does have advisors who may well be better at it than he. His change in tactics is illustrated by the fact he didn't stay and face Johnson as a chivalrous knight normally would. This is a surprise to Johnson, I'm sure.

As for the hijacked fleets, how else would a king who has lived past his life expectancy build up a sufficiently sized force to take over a star cluster? It would take a few lifetimes to build up the necessary ships on a planet isolated from the NUN alliance. That requires a multi-generational ideology and commitment that appears to only rest with the current royal family consisting primarily of Gramia and Keith.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Zinjo

[kalvasflam]

Actually, it makes perfect sense why Mirage would be attracted to him. He's everything she's been striving to be. She knows by-the-book flying isn't working and she's trying to live up to the legacy of her Grandparents, who were anything but by-the-book. He's precisely what she needs.

Reading your comment, I just suddenly had a Peter Griffin moment...

You can imagine the entire family sitting around Miranda in silence, and finally Mylene just can't help it any more, and she asks: "Onee-chan, are you sure Mirage is yours?"

As far as the Al Shahal fleet is concerned, I guess there are two options... the Messer options, kill all of them, or the Walkure option, un-Var them. One would hope that the Al Shahal fleet makes an appearance here. If not, there better be a damn good explanation down the line on where the Al Shahal fleet went.

Edited June 23, 2016 by kalvasflam

[Beltane70]

You got a little mixed up there, kalva, and said Miranda twice!

[squaresphere]

Just thinking about Gramia's tactics it a bit more. If he's confident that Ernest will come for him with Walkure then the baiting makes even more sense. Those few precious minutes in a head start are more minutes for Hienz to sing uncontested. By the time Ernest's fleet get back to Ragna I suspect many of the defenders would have been turned.

[guyxxed]

Just thinking about Gramia's tactics it a bit more. If he's confident that Ernest will come for him with Walkure then the baiting makes even more sense. Those few precious minutes in a head start are more minutes for Hienz to sing uncontested. By the time Ernest's fleet get back to Ragna I suspect many of the defenders would have been turned.

Pretty much. The king isn't running from a fight, he's out maneuvering Johnson, pulling the Elysion out of position to allow him a clean run at his last objective. I don't think we've seen anything that says the Windermerians need to HOLD the ruins on any planet, just activate them so that they'll resonate with the wind song. The king doesn't need to entrench and hold Al Shahal, he's literally fighting a blitzkrieg to achieve his first level objectives. With the Ragnan ruins activated, he controls the cluster whether Chaos and NUNS are defeated or not. Of course, he doesn't know about the plan to blow the ruins up, and that's where the mid-season "oh crap" will come from.

It will be fun to see how this plays out.

[starla]

Did the animation quality go down in this episode? It seemed to be lacking this time.

yes! i thought it was just me. some of the facials look kinda wonky at some parts.

so what would a bird do when it's done flying?

return to the... nest? hahahahahahhahah

it's nice that almost each ep ends with a cliffhanger (oh, it's not sunday yet???)... only wish that the momentum actually carries on on-screen into the following ones.

[David Hingtgen]

Pretty much how I view it, except instead of a wooshing noise Hayate's brain is looping Safety Dance by Men Without Hats.

Then he gets bonus points for having good taste.

[Marzan]

Then he gets bonus points for having good taste.

Hear, hear!!

[Mommar]

Then he gets bonus points for having good taste.

Time to splice in Safety Dance to some Delta scenes.

[tout-puissant]

Haya dance if he wants to. He can leave his friends behind...

Mark

[MisaForever]

Nyan Nyan dance or BUST!

[Master Dex]

Haya dance if he wants to. He can leave his friends behind...

Mark

Cause his friends don't dance and if they don't dance well, then they're no friends of mine.

[Seto Kaiba]

It is possible that the NUNS base that was destroyed sat on a deposit of fold quartz and that is what caused the scar. If that is the case, the Windermerians may have a cache of fold quartz at their disposal and with the assistance of the Epsilon Corp, were able to install enhanced fold drives aboard the Aerial Knight SV-262 fighters.

Essentially a fold in the 2050's Macross era is a wormhole and if you have a ship capable of opening a large enough aperture, a larger force could piggy back into SD space from that point. It would however, require the same ship to open the exit portal. Prior to MF, folds were depicted like instantaneous jumps rather than transits to and from SD space.

That would be an unusually mundane explanation for this series, where it seems like even the most trivial things turn out to have great significance.

I doubt that the Draken III has any kind of internal fold system... fold systems are just too big to do that, that's why they piggyback on the fold effects of their motherships.

Strictly speaking, fold systems in Macross Delta and Macross Frontier work the exact same way that they did in the original series. It's just that the visual effect for entering and leaving higher dimension space has changed to the more fancy "portal" type we first saw at the beginning of SDF Macross episode 1 that was too expensive to animate every time until computers started doing the heavy lifting. Instead of the ship glowing like a lightbulb for a few seconds before vanishing abruptly, we now see it slowly vanish. The jumps were never instantaneous either, the very first one that gets explained in the series is mentioned to be a trip of close to an hour as Vrlitwhai's ship went to report to Boddole Zer.

It's always been possible for folding ships to drag fighters or even other ships along with them. Obviously we first saw that in the original Macross series, and the first time it was done intentionally was in Macross II, when Sylvie tagged along inside the fold effect of Feff's Mardook picket ship to rescue Ishtar. The key bit to remember is that the fold system isn't moving the ship, it's moving the space inside of the fold effect and exchanging it with an equivalent volume of space that exists at the destination as something not dissimilar to teleportation. Normally that volume of space is just enough to encompass the ship executing the fold jump, but it can be enlarged to allow for the transportation of other vessels or other objects in nearby space. If you try to exit that volume of space before the fold ends, you're gonna have a bad time... like Hikaru and Misa did in DYRL?. (It's implied that this is how early emigrant fleets traveled, with fold-capable ships using their fold systems to transport themselves and their fold drive-less escorts.)

Cause his friends don't dance and if they don't dance well, then they're no friends of mine.

You know that's totally how he's going to defrost Mirage... stuffy little miss by-the-book is going to learn the Immelmann dance.

[cwmodels]

Triangle perception updated!

[OptionZero]

This was mentioned in the SPEAKERPODcast:

How long does it take for fold generators to re-charge?

If this is a significant amount of time, the Elysium could be stuck on Al-Shahal, possibly have to fight the leftover Al-Shahad mind-controlled forces, then return to Ragna

By then, Ragna's leftover NUN forces could be mind-controlled, OR . . . NUNS could blow up the ruins, causing irreparable damage to the planet by the time KAOS makes it back

[Seto Kaiba]

This was mentioned in the SPEAKERPODcast:

How long does it take for fold generators to re-charge?

If this is a significant amount of time, the Elysium could be stuck on Al-Shahal, possibly have to fight the leftover Al-Shahad mind-controlled forces, then return to Ragna

By then, Ragna's leftover NUN forces could be mind-controlled, OR . . . NUNS could blow up the ruins, causing irreparable damage to the planet by the time KAOS makes it back

I answered this one on the previous page.

Short version is "it depends on how big your ship is, how far you want to go, and how much juice you can spare". Al Shahal and Ragna are fairly close, being just 30 light years apart, so it shouldn't take long at all unless they end up in a fight with the Al Shahal NUNS fleet. It's only the long jumps, of hundreds or thousands of light years, that seem to require a significant charge-up.

[David Hingtgen]

Cause his friends don't dance and if they don't dance well, then they're no friends of mine.

Messer version---You can var if you want to, you can leave your friends to die...

[Marzan]

Time to splice in Safety Dance to some Delta scenes.

Pop Goes the World might be more relevant to the next episode of Delta I think

[Master Dex]

Messer version---You can var if you want to, you can leave your friends to die...

Cause your friends don't fly well, and if they don't fly well then they're no friends of mine.

Harsher than truth but it fit.

[Zinjo]

I guess there are no relevant comments left on this episode....

[derex3592]

I'll just leave this here..some people might find it useful moving forward.

I myself have been pleasantly surprised by Delta thus far. Just binged watched 1-12 this week and am now all caught up. No, it's not what we all wanted, a dark war drama, but it has it's charms, and we kinda knew what we were getting going in. I really cant stand Freyja, but everyone else is pretty likable and for the most part the story is what I call "just kinda go with it and enjoy it for what is"..it IS Macross after all, with all the weird music power mythical stuff. Most of us are all just here for the valk/mecha porn anyways!

Edited June 23, 2016 by derex3592

[Mommar]

I'd love a Hayate/Mirage VF-1 setup.

[derex3592]

One has to wonder if Bandai is going to jump on that opportunity at some point, either in a DX, or Hi Metal R...

[Seto Kaiba]

One has to wonder if Bandai is going to jump on that opportunity at some point, either in a DX, or Hi Metal R...

Can we preemptively tell Bandai to shut up and take our money?

[derex3592]

As long as they include colored paint splatter stickers, I'm all in!!!

[3D-Brainx]

In my opinion, Bandai had something to do with Hayate and Mirage training with a vf-1, it makes no sense otherwise (they should be using yf-30/31 or vf-31a or at least a 171, why would they train with an over 60 year old model, even if it is upgraded). In my opinion it was just to give Bandai an excuse to make a dx vf-1 toy.

Do they give an explanation on the show? I don't remember.

[Seto Kaiba]

In my opinion, Bandai had something to do with Hayate and Mirage training with a vf-1, it makes no sense otherwise (they should be using yf-30/31 or vf-31a or at least a 171, why would they train with an over 60 year old model, even if it is upgraded). In my opinion it was just to give Bandai an excuse to make a dx vf-1 toy.

Do they give an explanation on the show? I don't remember.

Well... no, not in Macross Delta anyway.

Using the VF-1 as a training aircraft for new pilots has been previously mentioned in a few places. Most recently in the Macross Frontier novelization, but also in a short story published in Macross Ace called "Actors Sky". In both, the variant used is a detuned-for-civilians version of the late block VF-1A designated VF-1C purchased by Mihoshi Academy for training new (young) pilots who may or may not actually join the military. I guess the logic behind it is that if you're going to stick a green civilian trainee in a Valkyrie for his first solo flight, you might as well make sure it's an aircraft that can be replaced cheaply instead of something with a price tag like the GDP of a small nation.

[Zinjo]

In my opinion, Bandai had something to do with Hayate and Mirage training with a vf-1, it makes no sense otherwise (they should be using yf-30/31 or vf-31a or at least a 171, why would they train with an over 60 year old model, even if it is upgraded). In my opinion it was just to give Bandai an excuse to make a dx vf-1 toy.

Do they give an explanation on the show? I don't remember.

I'm sure Hasegawa, another member of the modellers consortium, pressured for a VF-1 as well. They've already announced the release of the VF-1X kit with an all new EX Gear cockpit tub.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Zinjo

[SebastianP]

Well... no, not in Macross Delta anyway.

Using the VF-1 as a training aircraft for new pilots has been previously mentioned in a few places. Most recently in the Macross Frontier novelization, but also in a short story published in Macross Ace called "Actors Sky". In both, the variant used is a detuned-for-civilians version of the late block VF-1A designated VF-1C purchased by Mihoshi Academy for training new (young) pilots who may or may not actually join the military. I guess the logic behind it is that if you're going to stick a green civilian trainee in a Valkyrie for his first solo flight, you might as well make sure it's an aircraft that can be replaced cheaply instead of something with a price tag like the GDP of a small nation.

It's not just cost. Compare VFs to cars. The VF-1 is like a rally car. It's rugged, it's durable, it's reasonably fast, and if you flip it over you'll probably survive. A high-end VF is like a Ferrari or McLaren - four times the engine power, and half a ton of electronics just to keep the car going where you want it, and even *that*s not enough if you drive stupidly. And if you manage to crash it despite the safety measures, chances are not only is your car totalled, but so are you.

If you stick a noob driver in a McLaren F1, he'll most likely break the speed limit before he figures out which way he's going, and then break his gearbox because he forgot to shift up from first, or he'll smash into something at high speed because he didn't brake in time.

The equivalent noob mistakes in a YF-19 would be going supersonic on the runway and collapsing the landing gear; or getting off the runway, accelerating too fast, and reaching orbital velocity in the lower atmosphere, at which point the aircraft burns up from the friction.

A VF-25 or VF-31 would be more like a McLaren P1 - you wouldn't break the gearbox, because it's a semi-automatic; you might still smash into something because the car doesn't steer for you. Likewise, you probably wouldn't go supersonic on the runway because intelligent throttle governors, and rather than going too fast in the lower atmosphere, you risk going to space unintentionally. Or into the ground, the plane can't keep you from being suicidal.

[Seto Kaiba]

It's not just cost. Compare VFs to cars. The VF-1 is like a rally car. It's rugged, it's durable, it's reasonably fast, and if you flip it over you'll probably survive. A high-end VF is like a Ferrari or McLaren - four times the engine power, and half a ton of electronics just to keep the car going where you want it, and even *that*s not enough if you drive stupidly. And if you manage to crash it despite the safety measures, chances are not only is your car totalled, but so are you.

Well, that's debatable bordering on dubious... by 2059, the VF-1 Valkyrie was a cheap and comparatively simple aircraft that Shinsei Industry had spent the best part of fifty years polishing and perfecting. All of that time and effort made the civilian market VF-1 into a highly reliable aircraft with detuned performance that wouldn't test the limits of even a green pilot trainee. It's simple and it's rugged, but by VF standards it's what you'd call "durable". Compared to the military standard in 2059, let alone 2067, it's armored like a cream slice. To use your car analogy, it's more like your average kid's first daily driver. It's that ancient beater that's inexplicably still running despite having originally belonged to somebody's grandpa, with a 0-60 time that needs to be measured on a freaking sundial, a speedometer that shows numbers that it couldn't reach even going downhill with a hurricane-force tailwind, and fancy onboard electronics like an analog clock and genuine cassette player. In short, the kind of vehicle where nobody will weep unduly if the damn thing ends up totaled by little Johnny Q. Public (except maybe the freshly unhorsed Johnny Q. Public himself).

The rest of your analogy is pretty much bang-on accurate tho. Don't need a trainee going into g-loc in a 44G turn and bending a plane that with a nine figure price tag.

[notquitefodder]

Andddd cool ace guy is dead and I just started watching this series!

The VF-31 is cool and all, but it looks too similar to the VF-19 and Durandal. That said, what action I have seen so far is really cool.

[SebastianP]

Well, that's debatable bordering on dubious... by 2059, the VF-1 Valkyrie was a cheap and comparatively simple aircraft that Shinsei Industry had spent the best part of fifty years polishing and perfecting. All of that time and effort made the civilian market VF-1 into a highly reliable aircraft with detuned performance that wouldn't test the limits of even a green pilot trainee. It's simple and it's rugged, but by VF standards it's what you'd call "durable". Compared to the military standard in 2059, let alone 2067, it's armored like a cream slice. To use your car analogy, it's more like your average kid's first daily driver. It's that ancient beater that's inexplicably still running despite having originally belonged to somebody's grandpa, with a 0-60 time that needs to be measured on a freaking sundial, a speedometer that shows numbers that it couldn't reach even going downhill with a hurricane-force tailwind, and fancy onboard electronics like an analog clock and genuine cassette player. In short, the kind of vehicle where nobody will weep unduly if the damn thing ends up totaled by little Johnny Q. Public (except maybe the freshly unhorsed Johnny Q. Public himself).

The rest of your analogy is pretty much bang-on accurate tho. Don't need a trainee going into g-loc in a 44G turn and bending a plane that with a nine figure price tag.

No, given that the VF-1 even de-tuned is still supersonic and then some, it's not a "beater car". It's plenty fast enough to get you into all sorts of trouble, it's just not so fast that you can't get *out* of trouble before it ends up being terminal. You're not going to run into problems like going supersonic on the ground or burning up your aircraft due to air resistance, but you still have to tackle the dangers of transsonic flight etc.

"Mom's old beater" would be a subsonic jet trainer of the sort we use today, or even a propeller plane. The kind of things you use to teach pilots the very basics, like "this is how you take off from a runway", and "this is how you *land* on a runway". I don't think they'd use even de-tuned VF-1s for that, because they're not designed to go slow enough for an absolute noob to get the hang of things.

No, the VF-1 is a vintage GT race spec car from the 1960s or so. Like a Ferrari 250 GTO - the hottest thing on wheels back in the day, still pretty damned fast compared to anything that isn't explicitly a sports car, but completely outclassed by its modern equivalents, but popular enough that people are still building replicas.

[Einherjar]

Johnson's 0 :100 streak is pretty bad, but as part super soldier/space elf I wonder what kind of opponents he was fighting against with impossible odds? Maybe compared to and fighting other Zentradi commanders he sucks, but he's still more competent than commanders of other species.

Now that I mention it, where where have all the Zentradi gone? They start the series reintroducing them and their mecha (plus one new one) and now we're left with just the two or three regular cast members. They're not even Var'ed ones showing up.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Einherjar

[Seto Kaiba]

No, given that the VF-1 even de-tuned is still supersonic and then some, it's not a "beater car". It's plenty fast enough to get you into all sorts of trouble, it's just not so fast that you can't get *out* of trouble before it ends up being terminal. You're not going to run into problems like going supersonic on the ground or burning up your aircraft due to air resistance, but you still have to tackle the dangers of transsonic flight etc.

Nah man, being able to go supersonic isn't anything special for a variable fighter in Macross... even the ones powered by conventional jet turbofans could easily exceed Mach 2. The VF-1 Valkyrie's one of the very few that wasn't capable of hypersonic flight, and needed a decent run-up to go supersonic. The civilian market ones have the lowest thrust-to-weight ratio of any VF with thermonuclear reaction engines (potentially including the VF-0+ Phoenix Plus if my research has borne accurate fruit), and if you take the VF-5000 out of the equation the next nearest production model has 33% more get-up-and-go. It's the oldest, slowest, simplest Valkyrie they could lay hands on... and in terms of the gap of power between the training plane and the modern fighter, it's really is like pitting mom's old minivan against a supercar.

[3D-Brainx]

I thought that's what simulators where for. I mean, Alto trained on a simulator and then jump right into a vf-25 (top tech at that time), no vf-1 for him, and Hayate at least used that crane robot, so he has that advantage at least. I just find it odd that they used a 60 year old model for trining.