Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 11 - READ 1st POST

[Duke Togo]

They'll eventually replace Messer with one of the Knights who switches sides.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Duke Togo

[Seto Kaiba]

They'll eventually replace Messer with one of the Knights who switches sides.

I had that exact same thought when I finished Ep11... they're not going to replace Messer because someone is going to defect in the next few episodes.

Probably Bogue, as he seems to be most strongly affected by Walkure's songs.

[RedWolf]

I don't think the whole "heir to the PC" thing has been said or presented as anything other than propaganda at this point in the series. Even if they do address it with some scientific basis later on, how exactly would one descendeant race of the Protoculture have any more of a direct lineage to the PC than any other? How would one prove that humans are any less heirs to the PC than Windermereans. It doesn't make any logical sense, instead it just reads like racial jingoism and cultural imperialism. Given that Windermere is fighting a war, I'm not the least surprised if their "claim to the throne" was utter BS, perpetuated just for the sake of justifying their war.

The way Roid said Heinz should become the King of the Protoculture its like a Succession War in Battletech for the position of First Lord of the Star League.

The Protoculture Stellar Republic centralized governance of too many star systems led its downfall.

The NUN taking note that centralized government on a galactic scale would not work went with the decentralized route granting independence to fleets and planets.

Lactence didn't like that development staging a coup and was put down. It's Zentradi element remnant Fasces is a bit more fanatic. Them believing Earth is the second coming of the Protoculture and this whole independence thing as heresy.

Richard Bilrer owner of one of the largest transport companies and SMS want to unite the Children of the Protoculture in trade and comunication with Fold Quartz.

Windermere has this existential crisis finding out there are other more advanced human races out there and despite being weaker and no runes are longer lived. They are trying to make themselves feel important... Too much.

The only possible Protoculture who is likely 500,000 years old is Mina Forte and she is an idol way over at Ouroboros. She has amnesia. Nobody is asking her opinion.

Edited June 15, 2016 by RedWolf

[Duke Togo]

I had that exact same thought when I finished Ep11... they're not going to replace Messer because someone is going to defect in the next few episodes.

Probably Bogue, as he seems to be most strongly affected by Walkure's songs.

It seems like the obvious move.

[Seto Kaiba]

The Protoculture Stellar Republic centralized governance of too many star systems led its downfall.

That's not what the Protoculture said, though... the Protoculture archive on Lux in Macross 7 credited the downfall of the Protoculture's civilization to having never been a single, unified society. The overexpansion of the Stellar Republic exacerbated the preexisting divide in their society, and the tensions between the two sides festered until they became battle lines in the Schism War. They didn't unify under one banner until the Protodeviln and their Supervision Army had conquered over 30% of the Republic and enslaved hundreds of billions of people.

(They tried, in a predictably jerkass way, to prevent the sub-Protoculture species they created from repeating their mistakes after they passed the point of no return. The Birdman they on Earth was programmed to destroy humanity if they gained space travel capabilities before resolving their internal differences.)

Lactence didn't like that development staging a coup and was put down. It's Zentradi element remnant Fasces is a bit more fanatic. Them believing Earth is the second coming of the Protoculture and this whole independence thing as heresy.

Fasces was... well... kinda nutty. It was run by Zentradi, rather than Humans, who were especially enamored of Earth culture.

Windermere has this existential crisis finding out there are other more advanced human races out there and despite being weaker and no runes are longer lived. They are trying to make themselves feel important... Too much.

The way it's being presented, I'm not sure their motives are anything so lofty as an existential crisis. They were apparently perfectly happy to work with humanity for decades (and to a certain extent, still are)... so I'm betting that King Gramia's motives for the war are rather more personal, and he's wrapping it up in this dogma of "We're the Protoculture's special-est snowflakes" to make it easier for his people to swallow.

(The color of their runes seems to change rather dramatically based on their mood, and Gramia's are ALWAYS red... which seems to be the default state for "angry".)

[kajnrig]

It seems like the obvious move.

Isn't Bogue the one constantly trying to blow them to smithereens?

[Duke Togo]

Isn't Bogue the one constantly trying to blow them to smithereens?

Somebody is going to switch sides.

[Saruta]

Yep, because the Evangelion kids where all older than 18.

Unfortunately some countries' censorship law has tightened up since the original EVA. I do suspect some parts of EVA are technically illegal in Russia and Ireland, as both of these countries ban "depictions or descriptions" of sexual actions by children (under 18 in Russia, 17 in Ireland) without much clarification. (I am from Russia and live in Ireland so I try to keep up with the laws of these two),

[Saruta]

The show seems to have taken a big step back from fanservice in general, which I think is a good thing. It doesn't offend me, but there were several times in Frontier that left me rolling my eyes and feeling like I needed to apologize to my wife that this really wasn't "that" kind of show. I'm liking Delta's more mature presentation.

Yes Yes YES THIS. And I am saying this mainly as a parent. I have two sons, who, when they were 9 and 4, enjoyed SFDM and M7. And wanted more. And I could not give them Frontier because, mainly, of that panties episode. I will give them Delta now.

(The elder boy is now 11 and I will get him Frontier, with some explanation, but for the younger boy, a 6 year old, I don't think Frontier is fitting, exactly because of that.BTW I also did not give them M7 Dynamite because of the attempted lesbian rape).

Wasn't she naked (albeit featureless) in the end of episode 1?

Sailor Moon type nakedness does not count, usually, for this type of law, but bring in any actual features...

Anyway I like the way they are taking it. There's fanservice galore, just not the simple/naked variety. #TeamMakiReina

[Graham]

It seems like the obvious move.

I really don't see that happening at all. Bogue seems to be the one who hates Walkure the most.

Not to mention, he's a pretty crap pilot, always getting his ass saved by either Keith or Master Herman, so he's not really deserving of Messer's VF-31F.

[Duke Togo]

I really don't see that happening at all. Bogue seems to be the one who hates Walkure the most.

Not to mention, he's a pretty crap pilot, always getting his ass saved by either Keith or Master Herman, so he's not really deserving of Messer's VF-31F.

I didn't mean him in particular. I just meant one of them.

[kajnrig]

Who's the one who constantly seems to be at odds with the rest of the Aerial Knights? The silver-haired one with the glasses? He seems like my candidate to defect. Then again I haven't been paying as much attention to the show as I probably should. Definitely need to binge the series so far one of these free weekends...

EDIT:

Damn you, phone, learn how to spell.

Edited June 16, 2016 by kajnrig

[Mr March]

Yeah, they seem to be setting up Roid for some kind of move. If not betrayal, then some kind of tenuous alliance with Xaos and Walkure. He has been setup at the beginning as one of the most rational and intelligent Windermereans and his ability to lead is constantly being undermined by the king, Keith and even Heinz to a degree (although through Heinz own innocence/ignorance). I think of all of them, Roid is the most likely candidate to break from the group.

[guyxxed]

I agree with this, with Heinz being an obvious second choice. I wonder, though, if they're not setting Keith up for a switch as well. His respect for Messer is a possible path to empathy if it drives him to learn more about his enemy. Possibly through memories his father (the previous Whiye Knight) might share in upcoming episodes about the first war and his experiences with Arad and Johnson. Couple that with a possible revelation that the Windemere scar wasn't inflicted by who they think it was and you've got a recipe for a classic heel-face turn. I think Bogue will be the vengeful holdout that presses the grudge to the end. Unless his lack of rune-discipline gets the best of him first. ;-)

Speaking of which, did anyone notice that his runes were glowing a different color when Keith threatened him? They usually glow red but this time were blue. Does that indicate the emotion driving them or something?

[starla]

i watch wayyyy too much movie for my own good which is why in a den full of vipers, i trust someone like Roid the least. i'm paranoid & am always looking out for the Keyzer Soze.

[David Hingtgen]

Best song in the series so far---is one of Fire Bomber's, sung by kids.

Basara never managed such a sad version though.

[ManhattanProject972]

Best song in the series so far---is one of Fire Bomber's, sung by kids.

Basara never managed such a sad version though.

Well to be fair, I don't think we've seen Basara sing at a human's funeral/remembrance ceremony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D--eVxaLF6c

At 7:25 there is an acoustic version of Remember 16 which I think is from The Galaxy is Calling Me when he picked up Pedro's dad's guitar I could be wrong tho.

[Scyla]

Somebody is going to switch sides.

It would also satisfy my OCD greatly if one would switch sides. Now with four members of the Delta Squadron and six members of the Aerial Knights it is just not well balanced. On the other hand I could not see any of the characters switch sides besides Roid. And he, for some reason, doesn't seem to pilot a Valkyrie. I also think he is to high up in the command chain to be a fighter-pilot if he is able to fly a Valkyrie.

Maybe if the reveal the true origin of the crater on Windermere someone is willing to defect.

On the other hand (since four members seem to be the standard number of Valkyries in a squadron) I could see Hayate/Delta Squadron killing two members of the Aerial Knights (prime candidates: Master Herman and one of the twins) to create more equal teams.

I hope we get a new intro next episode since the Messer/Keith dynamic is now gone that dominated most of the fighting parts in the episodes till now and was shown fairly prominent in the intro.

I honestly can't see Hayate inherit the plane from Messer because I think that they choose the color of the planes by themselves so the paint scheme of the VF-31F doesn't really fit Hayate. In addition the J-designation seem to be the main hero Valkyrie. I could see Hayate raising as the new Ace of Delta Squadron and sporting a skull insignia but I don't think he will switch his machine.

Another possibility could be that Hayate flies Messers plane, gets into a killing frenzy and kill some of the Aerial Knights before he recognize that he is on the wrong track and than switching back to the VF-31J in the end. However this is also a pretty cliché trope.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Scyla

[zaino]

i really want mirage to rise up and be the one to challenge Kieth to honor the Jenius name

[Master Dex]

I'm still calling that Mirage and Hayate form an elite duo to challenge Keith by complimenting their two styles. It also will further that leg of the triangle by getting them working together more.

[guyxxed]

I'm still calling that Mirage and Hayate form an elite duo to challenge Keith by complimenting their two styles. It also will further that leg of the triangle by getting them working together more.

This. I'd kind of like to see Hayate try to step up and take Messer's place only to get his ass handed to him repeatedly. Then have Mirage come to his rescue and they figure out that together they can do what needs done. No magic resonating winds, just good old fashioned teamwork.

[Mr March]

I'm still calling that Mirage and Hayate form an elite duo to challenge Keith by complimenting their two styles. It also will further that leg of the triangle by getting them working together more.

I really like this idea and think it's more in line with Macross Delta's storytelling than most other theories I've read. It would also come around at an appropriate time, because Mirage hasn't been receiving any attention these last few episodes AND so far, has relied very much on co-ordination with Hayate in combat to pull her weight in the love triangle relationship. It makes sense that the two of them would come together to defeat Keith, serving both a story purpose and fulfilling a requirement of the love triangle.

[Mommar]

I'm still calling that Mirage and Hayate form an elite duo to challenge Keith by complimenting their two styles. It also will further that leg of the triangle by getting them working together more.

I think you're right but I can understand why zaino feels the way he does. I too want to see the Jenius girl rise up and kick ass on her own like Grandma and Grandpa could. Though, something to consider, if you remember from SDFM and DYRL by the end of the series Max and Millia did fight together in a team-up style during the final Battle in both their 1J's and the Queadluun-Rau's. So the team-up aspect doesn't necessarily take away from their individual talents.

We don't really know what will happen, Hayate already has vowed to make up for Messer missing so it seems like either he's going to be training super hard and/or they'll just make it a willpower thing. Mirage may feel like she has to do the same to keep him safe, or whatever.

[Marzan]

I said for the last episode. Look for Hayate to have a montage power-up and then release his Valk-dancing skills on the Knights. He'll tapdance on the wind powered by Freyja's sound wave, much to Bogue's righteous anger.

[Thom]

As much as I hope Bogue is the first Knight down, it will probably be the old guy or one of the twins. More than likely Master Helman, as Bogue seems to have a hero worship thing for him, because he still refers to him as Master even as Helman constantly reminds him that that is past. Having it be Helman would completely nuke Bogue and would turn him into a raving wild card, with an actual personal grudge against whomever killed Herman. Possibly Hayate. But then, if Mirage was the one to kill Herman, that would increase her story-cred. I can see Bogue even attacking the Knights if they tried to get in his way - if that were to occur...

And I hope no one switches sides! That actually seems pretty cliched to me now, and to constantly use it as a story crutch would dumb down the writing. Unless the switch wasn't really a switch, but a way to get a Knight into Delta. But I could only imagine that happening if Delta had the upper hand and the Knights needed a sneak play.

If it were to happen though, I could see Roid doing it. Not because he thinks his King is wrong, but merely to save Heinz's life, whether the Prince likes it or not. And if it did happen, I don't think it would be a full defection, but more of a subtle sabotage, more to save Heinz than to stop Windermere.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Thom

[Rbstr]

It would also come around at an appropriate time, because Mirage hasn't been receiving any attention these last few episodes AND so far, has relied very much on co-ordination with Hayate in combat to pull her weight in the love triangle relationship.

Most of the main three have been pretty low-key in the last couple with their development more background to the Messer story.

You can tell though that Hayate and Mirage are developing a pretty good work-buddy kind of relationship in the last couple episodes. They're paired up in most of the scenes I'm recalling.

I just hope Mirage doesn't get damsel-ed much/anymore. She's supposed to be a decent pilot at least but she's mostly been in trouble or like "I need to keep up"

Edited June 16, 2016 by Rbstr

[RedWolf]

Interesting thing I learned on Macross 30 just now. The Protoculture on Ouroboros had a cure for Vajra Fold Bacterium which was present on a database.

Water from an oasis, which has a ruin nearby, can cure V-type infected persons.

In the Brisingr cluster water from Protoculture ruins is one part of the chemical that makes Fold Bacteria grow in person thus the Var syndrome combined with Windermere apples.

Thus we have figured out why those with Fold Bacterium are not dying like in Frontier. Galactic Whales also have bacteria from their bodies which are deadly for non-immunized offworlders on Zola. However hot spring water from their graveyard at Catsnake forest has healing properties.

[Lorindor]

First time I voted positive. Finally, the story is moving along. Yes, the episode was very melodramatic, but rather that than silly, cringe-worthy or bland. Not much Freyja and Remember 16 also helped A LOT.

[cwmodels]

From what I can tell, the Delta Platoon members run on the 5 man team formula of Gatchaman:

G1- Arad (straight leader)

G2- Messer (cold, distant type)

G3- Mirage (only female on the team)

G4- Hayate (the youngest member)

G5- Chuck (big laid-back guy)

With Messier's personality, falling ill and now death patterned exactly after Condor Joe. But Messer's death feels extremely unsatisfying because there was no real arc for the character's journey. They've just begin to develop him in an interesting direction, but then it's cut short too quick without fully realizing the character or further story potential. There wasn't even any setup with Messer's flight log (like perhaps showing him updating it all the time without letting us in on what he is written, so there would be more impact when the content is revealed after his death). I always call this kind of writing "Forced Emotional Climax".

The show also feels like it's running on a check list of events/revelations that have to happen, and really stressing on the need to hit a "turning point" mark about every 4 episodes or so. And none of it is doing it in a way that feel like an organic progression. At this point the show is almost 1/3 through and a majority of the very large cast still yet have any true development as characters. While there are a lot of excellent scenes and moments throughout , the overall story structure feel much more labored when compared to Frontier. A lot of stuff occur in a very disjointed way like chess pieces being moved about in an inefficient manner to reach checkmate.

I'd like to give Shoji the benefit of the doubt since it is still only 1/3 into the show, and maybe it'll kick into gear very soon. Plus I thought Macross Frontier was truly excellent in the way it was put together. But then again a change of staff for the current production may not have the same caliber of talent like the ones from that series.

[azrael]

Sit-down viewing.

It's the aftermath episode.

But Messer's death feels extremely unsatisfying because there was no real arc for the character's journey. They've just begin to develop him in an interesting direction, but then it's cut short too quick without fully realizing the character or further story potential...

I'm gonna agree with that sentiment. I would have liked a little more time with Messer, but oh well.

I think the Windermere King is at the frak-it stage. It feels like they pulled out the trump card with the Protoculture ship because they have short life spans.

Roid may splinter with Heinz, but at that point, it might be too late for the heroes at Windermere's present push. This is why I think Windermere needs to suffer a setback. I feel like the last couple of episodes were rushed and I guess that's because Windermere is pushing up the timetable. I get the feeling a prolonged conflict will not serve Windermere's plans (or their lifespans). If Roid's motivation needs more time, then Windermere needs to suffer a setback.

[Roy Focker]

I wonder what the mid series twist is going to be. The old dude got out of bed to lead them. Either the series is going to end with in 3 episodes or something is going to happen to create enough material for a dozen more episodes.

[Bub]

Worst episode for me so far. But still voted neutral.

[kalvasflam]

I really hope none of the knights switch, would be nicer if they died instead. The fight between them so far is meaningless, and given how much difficulty the Al Shahal fleet had with the Aerial knights in the first episode, I honestly don't see why they had to launch a whole fleet all at once

[eko.prasetiyo]

lets say how about suddenly the king passed and heinz as the heir cannot take the throne. I think it would be interesting if somehow heinz sneak out in al-shahal or ragna and then heinz meet walkure or someone from chaos. then heinz decide that this war is pointless so he want to end it. heinz will be labelled traitor. so if this happen can keith take the throne?

[guyxxed]

I wonder what the mid series twist is going to be. The old dude got out of bed to lead them. Either the series is going to end with in 3 episodes or something is going to happen to create enough material for a dozen more episodes.

The two most predictable twists would be:

A) the king dies/is killed and Epsilon usurps the PC tech and shoves their own agenda forward,

OR

B) the PC tech does something unexpected and the Windemerians lose control of it and it threatens everyone.

I'm hoping Kawamori has a surprise third option up his sleeve, but this series hasn't stuck it's narrative neck out much thus far.