Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 10 - READ 1st POST

[Scyla]

I'm seriously bummed out about the lack of Battroid action during the last few episodes.

I also think that Bouge should've killed Messer with a cheap shot. Would give some major guilt for Hayate since he spared him. On the other hand I'm glad they didn't go for the obvious.

Also here you have your grim and gritty Macross, I hope you enjoy it. I want more Macross 7 in my life! *sad face*

[kalvasflam]

I wonder who they're going to get to replace Messer, they can't use Ozma, he'd take down the Aerial Knights by himself, too OP, same with Dyson, maybe a temp appearance from Alto? Though 7 years after Frontier, he's probably busy leading his own squadron by now.

Alto: "Sheryl, I have to be away for a few weeks, SMS has been requested to provide support in the XXX sector."

Sheryl: "My foot is sore Alto, don't you even dare think about leaving."

Alto: "But Sheryl..."

Sheryl: "Listen slave, you will do what I say, galavanting off away from home doesn't count."

Yeah, I doubt if Alto would make an appearance. Klan on the other hand...

Edited June 8, 2016 by kalvasflam

[tout-puissant]

While I'd like to see more bot on bot action as well, it'd have to be justified, and IMO that justification just isn't there as much as in other shows. Valkyries were made to transform specifically to fight giant aliens hand-to-hand, humanoid or otherwise, because that's what those aliens can do. Delta doesn't have that kind of antagonist, and so there's no real need to transform.

Heck, even when they DO transform to fight, our Chaos heroes are usually doing it in response to another giant robot poncing around blowing stuff up. That sounds perfectly reasonable. IRL, if you can destroy an enemy at range, you darn well do. You stay distant, quick , and maneuverable, and for a Valkyire you do all this in fighter mode. Now, if the bad guy is close enough to punch you, then you better be ready to punch back - so yes, transform. In Delta the bad robots are usually crazy Var-inflicted combat zombies, so being in close combat mode by default makes a certain amount of sense. But the Knights are sane, educated people, and so they will fight in fighter mode whenever they can.

In this episode, anyone went to Gerwalk only when they landing or on the ground, which is again the whole point of that mode (it also lets pretty girls see you when you're asking them to sing). Again, justifiable. Maybe it's disappointing that we aren't seeing the robots, but the fighters here are variable and they use it when they need to, not when they want to.

Mark

[Kcsquare]

I wonder if Delta is going to be split into 2 seasons of 12 episodes each. This could explain why Messer is killed this early

[guyxxed]

While I'd like to see more bot on bot action as well, it'd have to be justified...

All good points, and I mostly agree. One caveat I'd throw in, though, is how a VF transform can be the unexpected move that tips the balance in an otherwise standard dogfight. Think Shin vs Nora in the last episode of Zero, Alto vs Kamijin-clone in Fastest Delivery, or even Hayate against Mirage in ep 3. I'm thinking that this is how they'll beat Keith: by not fighting by the rules. That's really how Keith beat Messer, afterall, by doing the unexpected, and who's our resident expert in unpredictability?

That said, I also really like the idea that Mirage and Hayate have to become a team to defeat the bad guys. It's already happening and would be a perfect way to drive the triangle at the same time. Hayate's already resonating with Freyja, him finding a way to resonate with Mirage would be the perfect counterpoint. It would also be awesomely Macross.

One aside - what happened to Bogue and the second twin while Messer was talking to Kaname? Messer only shot one attacker on his way down and fell over while blocking Bogue's shot. Neither Bogue or the other guy were damaged, just surprised. I guess because they're knights, they were being chivalrous and politely waiting for Messer to finish his conversation with the lady before resuming their attempts to murder them all?

[Duymon]

I thought delta had too many characters so killing off a few gives the others more screen time and a chance to develop. Maybe a Tomino-esque purge of main characters like in Z-gundam and Ideon hehehe

Edited June 9, 2016 by Duymon

[ManhattanProject972]

All good points, and I mostly agree. One caveat I'd throw in, though, is how a VF transform can be the unexpected move that tips the balance in an otherwise standard dogfight. Think Shin vs Nora in the last episode of Zero, Alto vs Kamijin-clone in Fastest Delivery, or even Hayate against Mirage in ep 3. I'm thinking that this is how they'll beat Keith: by not fighting by the rules. That's really how Keith beat Messer, afterall, by doing the unexpected, and who's our resident expert in unpredictability?

That said, I also really like the idea that Mirage and Hayate have to become a team to defeat the bad guys. It's already happening and would be a perfect way to drive the triangle at the same time. Hayate's already resonating with Freyja, him finding a way to resonate with Mirage would be the perfect counterpoint. It would also be awesomely Macross.

One aside - what happened to Bogue and the second twin while Messer was talking to Kaname? Messer only shot one attacker on his way down and fell over while blocking Bogue's shot. Neither Bogue or the other guy were damaged, just surprised. I guess because they're knights, they were being chivalrous and politely waiting for Messer to finish his conversation with the lady before resuming their attempts to murder them all?

To add to the side of not transforming, when you transform, you kill whatever speed you have allowing other enemies to close in and surround you and being in Delta's position already being outnumbered I think it was the right call to keep it in fighter mode. Messer wanted a 1v1 duel with Keith so to prevent others from joining and complicating the fight even further he kept his speed up to where even if the other knights wanted to join in they couldn't.

Now to Keith doesn't really have an excuse for not transforming, he couldve forced Messer to slow down allowing him to get surrounded and get taken out much easier. Keith doesn't really use his forces superior numbers to its full advantage, but thats probably because out of everyone in the show he enjoys and prefers 1v1 duels as evident in him going Alto over the sheer bliss he was experiencing fighting Messer all out.

Thats probably my biggest complaint about the series so far, no one is using teamwork, everyone but Bouge and the Twins seem to forget they have teammates and wingmen to tag team with, no one really has eachothers backs. And for Delta, it just seems pretty foolish that they don't really have any team tactics the could use against superior numbers except their formations in which they all break off and do their own thing anyway.

Edited June 9, 2016 by ManhattanProject972

[RedWolf]

Thats probably my biggest complaint about the series so far, no one is using teamwork, everyone but Bouge and the Twins seem to forget they have teammates and wingmen to tag team with, no one really has eachothers backs. And for Delta, it just seems pretty foolish that they don't really have any team tactics the could use against superior numbers except their formations in which they all break off and do their own thing anyway.

As for the Aerial Knights it is because they are glory seeking knights. They haven't matured really. Before the Terrans came the Aerial Knights took pride in being masters of the sky riding flying beasts if we are to go by this.

edit: Bit of correction.

Thanks to karice67 of Animesuki.

The Roots of the Aerial Knights

In the past, Windermere's Aerial Knights were a chivalric/military order that rode on large animal mounts and used gliders akin to wingsuits to leap from hill/mountain tops to siege castles and other strongholds. They were known as the 'Wind Riding' Knights. 40 years ago, they obtained fighter technology from the NUN government, and thus became an elite air force instead. (Kawamori)

Edited June 9, 2016 by RedWolf

[d3v]

Now to Keith doesn't really have an excuse for not transforming, he couldve forced Messer to slow down allowing him to get surrounded and get taken out much easier. Keith doesn't really use his forces superior numbers to its full advantage, but thats probably because out of everyone in the show he enjoys and prefers 1v1 duels as evident in him going Alto over the sheer bliss he was experiencing fighting Messer all out.

Keith doesn't need to because he's been abusing the Li'l Draken's on his wings by using them to quickly change direction.

[Windrider]

I wonder if Delta is going to be split into 2 seasons of 12 episodes each. This could explain why Messer is killed this early

Macross has never been a split cour series and has always been at least 2 cour with a single season airing. Delta should probably be at least 26 episodes since there are 9 volumes with 3 episodes each.

[guyxxed]

Thats probably my biggest complaint about the series so far, no one is using teamwork, everyone but Bouge and the Twins seem to forget they have teammates and wingmen to tag team with, no one really has eachothers backs. And for Delta, it just seems pretty foolish that they don't really have any team tactics the could use against superior numbers except their formations in which they all break off and do their own thing anyway.

Can't argue with that. SMS in Frontier had a very effective mixed arms approach to battle situations that fully depended on teamwork to pull off a victory, which was nice to see and also gave every character a chance to shine. In Delta so far, we've barely seen Chuck or Arad do much.

MY biggest complaint, though, is that we're at episode 10 and we still don't have a very clear understanding of the villains. It's clear that there are layers there, what with Epsilon's introduction and such, and I'm fine with that (Grace didn't emerge as the big bad until well into Frintier), but we still have little real understanding of the knights. We have their stated cause and the clear implication that it's a ruse for something related to the ruins, but very little else. What is their command structure? Roid gives orders, except when he loses a fencing match with Keith, but then Keith has been shown doing things on his own anyway, and the king trumps them both, except he seems driven by revenge while the others seem driven by...being almost out of time?

Mystery is fine, and this isn't really stopping me from enjoying things, but I feel like they're getting very close to the Lost trap of presenting too many questions without enough answers. It seems clear that the bad guys are hiding things even from each other, but I think we need to see what at least one of them thinks is going on fairly soon. The king's revenge would seems to be a good place to start, it's a pretty safe assumption that it's related to the war and the dimensional weapon, but let's go see what it is that drives him. The secret of the ruins can play on for awhile longer if we have at least one clear motivation to follow. And don't talk to me about unfair trade deals, that's just the propaganda that they're using to justify the cover story. Only naive youngsters like Bogue buy into that.

[realdeal]

Unlike popular opinion, I don't think Messer and Keith were evenly matched. Messer always seemed pretty serious and intense in his dogfights vs Keith, while Keith looked like he was having fun facing someone who was skilled enough not to bore him. The way Keith killed Messer proves how much more skilled he was, opting to use a pinpoint attack while on a head on collision course to snipe Messer. If his aim was off by just a foot, he would have missed. And the time frame at which he had to make that shot was only a few seconds at most.

If that's not showboating, I don't know what else it could be. And people usually only showboat when they believe they have a massive advantage over their opponent and can toy with them.

Messer slowed down quite a bit once his Var infection got going. He definitely was not at his best for the past two dog fights. But you are right in thinking keith was i full control of the last fight, i even think the killing blow was him just showing off.

[d3v]

I think Keith was "showboating" because he had to pull out from his bag of tricks to beat Messer. He had to sacrifice his last Li'l Draken to attack Messer from an unexpected/unconventional position (head on) to get a good shot.

[realdeal]

I think Keith was "showboating" because he had to pull out from his bag of tricks to beat Messer. He had to sacrifice his last Li'l Draken to attack Messer from an unexpected/unconventional position (head on) to get a good shot.

I guess i think he is showboating because he couldve used his main weapon but unnecessarily opted to use a small head laser to fire a precise shot square in the cockpit. Maybe the subtext is'i own you' and 'i am in full control.'(sorry typing on phone)

[Bryan Cranston]

What a tragic end........ As they flew to their full potential, it was clear Messer and Keith could have been great friends.

War really steals the most powerful thing of all- a future full of friendsships.... and maybe something more.....

[grigolosi]

I don't think Keith took control of the dogfight until Messer landed some rounds on him. If you watch he almost seems to be enthralled in the synchronicity between him and Messer and then wham! Messer lands some rounds on him and shakes him out of his euphoria. That is when he focuses on actually trying to shoot down Messer. it was like he suddenly realized that Messer was an actual threat to him and moved to remove that threat at that point.

[Product9]

Perhaps the reason they stuck to fighter mode was some kind of honor duel thing. I mean, if you are dueling with swords, it wouldn't be too honorable to pull out a pistol...

Keith using the previously hidden weapon is akin to pulling out a hidden dagger.

That and the use of the drone could be perceived as underhanded, IMO.

[Graham]

Two theories on why Keith used the nose laser instead of his much more powerful beam gunpod to shoot Messer:

1) Yes, he was showboating and wanted to show he could take down his skilled arch-rival even using a lesser weapon.

or

2) Possibly if Keith had triggered the beam gunpod, perhaps the sensors on Messer's VF-31F may have been able to detect it powering up, giving Messer a chance to evade. Therefore Keith decided to be sneaky and use a previously unknown weapon which would not be in the Siegfried's threat detection database.

[Spacerat53]

Definitely one of the best episodes so far. The ending of the duel between Keith and Messer left me shocked.

[d3v]

Perhaps the reason they stuck to fighter mode was some kind of honor duel thing. I mean, if you are dueling with swords, it wouldn't be too honorable to pull out a pistol...

Keith using the previously hidden weapon is akin to pulling out a hidden dagger.

That and the use of the drone could be perceived as underhanded, IMO.

Nah, them sticking to fighter mode because they're fighting within an atmosphere sounds like a more plausible reason. Speed is life after all in air combat.

People are too used to seeing transforming as a move that gives someone an edge, yet at most what we see in the shows mostly just works due to the surprise factor. Once you get over that bit and figure out that a battroid is a (relatively) slow moving target that's bleeding energy, then it becomes easier to deal with.

Edited June 10, 2016 by d3v

[Product9]

Nah, them sticking to fighter mode because they're fighting within an atmosphere sounds like a more plausible reason. Speed is life after all in air combat.

People are too used to seeing transforming as a move that gives someone an edge, yet at most what we see in the shows mostly just works due to the surprise factor. Once you get over that bit and figure out that a battroid is a (relatively) slow moving target that's bleeding energy, then it becomes easier to deal with.

In a dogfight too much speed is a problem. Corner velocity is really where one wants to be, which is neither too slow nor too fast. These fighters have effectively unlimited energy as well, and can accelerate fast enough to crush the pilot, so these WWII-esque analogies really don't apply.

Besides, gerwalk mode is way more effective than those cobras they keep pulling, and being able to keep a weapon system on target using the arms is nothing to scoff at either.

Its just a style thing in the show - there is no good reason for it outside of the duel.

[d3v]

In a dogfight too much speed is a problem. Corner velocity is really where one wants to be, which is neither too slow nor too fast. These fighters have effectively unlimited energy as well, and can accelerate fast enough to crush the pilot, so these WWII-esque analogies really don't apply.

Besides, gerwalk mode is way more effective than those cobras they keep pulling, and being able to keep a weapon system on target using the arms is nothing to scoff at either.

Its just a style thing in the show - there is no good reason for it outside of the duel.

Gerwalk probably still bleeds alot of energy though, and, with the engines pointing down, they probably lose alot of speed as well. The main use for it, as you said, you be as a replacement for a cobra, however Keith already doesn't need to do that since he can just use his Li'l Draken's to the same effect by rotating them backwards.

IMO, it's more likely just the crew acknowledging that traditional air combat is still more practical. Besides, both Keith and Messer strike me as very practical pilots, not restricted by doctrine like Mirage, nor flashy like Hayate and Bogue - they just do enough to get the job done, even sacrificing the Li'l Draken was more out of necessity than pure showing off.

As for the pilots getting crushed due to acceleration, these planes are far more likely to burn up due to friction than to have that happen to their pilots thanks to ISC.

[Product9]

Gerwalk probably still bleeds alot of energy though, and, with the engines pointing down, they probably lose alot of speed as well. The main use for it, as you said, you be as a replacement for a cobra, however Keith already doesn't need to do that since he can just use his Li'l Draken's to the same effect by rotating them backwards.

IMO, it's more likely just the crew acknowledging that traditional air combat is still more practical. Besides, both Keith and Messer strike me as very practical pilots, not restricted by doctrine like Mirage, nor flashy like Hayate and Bogue - they just do enough to get the job done, even sacrificing the Li'l Draken was more out of necessity than pure showing off.

As for the pilots getting crushed due to acceleration, these planes are far more likely to burn up due to friction than to have that happen to their pilots thanks to ISC.

Doesn't ISC have a limit, though? Like with the VF-25 it was said to be able to compensate for so many seconds of x acceleration? Also, I think it has a limit as to how many gs it can negate.

Well, it's immaterial.

Either way, I still think it's an honor thing. I think Keith would be surprised if he encountered a pilot that 'made him switch modes'. Doing everything in fighter is akin to fighting with a limitation. Using the arms to point the weapons in any direction is just such a useful thing to have at one's disposal (not to mention the rapid deceleration or change in attitude the legs and body could provide).

We'll see if anybody forces Keith to actually change modes in a fight. Or maybe we won't. I'm just theory-crafting here.

[kalvasflam]

whatever happens, my one hope with episode 11 is that they will continue where they left off on episode 10. The aerial knights just got back their six to four advantage, they need to press in and kill Delta squad and make the Walkure DROWN IN THEIR OWN BLOOD.... (doing my best Bogue imitation there). That's what the real military does, no such thing as we killed one guy, let's call it a day.

The only reasonable course otherwise is having overwhelming UN Spacy reinforcements show up....

This reminds me also, are the Aerial Knights like the only force that Windermere can muster? Because having six fighters trying to take over Al Shahal no matter how many NUNS are infected with VAR is just absolutely stupid. There better have been other battles happening on Al Shahal

But judging by the title of episode 11, I have great fears that it will be a recap episode, I hope at least that it is a recap that advance the storyline.

[tout-puissant]

Well, when the Knights made their big debut in episode 4, that battle just sorta ended as well - so there is precedent. Who knows if they were doing a specific mission other than declaring war in a spectacular fashion, but at the time they were in the position to wipe everyone out, and instead both sides just buggered off back home between episodes. That did bug me a bit.

Mark

[kalvasflam]

Well, when the Knights made their big debut in episode 4, that battle just sorta ended as well - so there is precedent. Who knows if they were doing a specific mission other than declaring war in a spectacular fashion, but at the time they were in the position to wipe everyone out, and instead both sides just buggered off back home between episodes. That did bug me a bit.

Mark

the battle ended because the point of it was a distraction.

[Karaoke Ninja]

whatever happens, my one hope with episode 11 is that they will continue where they left off on episode 10. The aerial knights just got back their six to four advantage, they need to press in and kill Delta squad and make the Walkure DROWN IN THEIR OWN BLOOD.... (doing my best Bogue imitation there). That's what the real military does, no such thing as we killed one guy, let's call it a day.

The only reasonable course otherwise is having overwhelming UN Spacy reinforcements show up....

This reminds me also, are the Aerial Knights like the only force that Windermere can muster? Because having six fighters trying to take over Al Shahal no matter how many NUNS are infected with VAR is just absolutely stupid. There better have been other battles happening on Al Shahal

But judging by the title of episode 11, I have great fears that it will be a recap episode, I hope at least that it is a recap that advance the storyline.

They are not the only force. Watch the end of episode 4 again and you can see multiple Draakens stationed around the capital.

[TMBounty_Hunter]

Finally caught up with this after a few weeks distraction.

So about that hole. We've been told that the various Protoculture ruins have roots going down to the planet core. Windemere has been said to not have long left due to the "wound". Now that the probable actual baddies have showed up with fancy equipment it sure looks like that Dimensional Kaboom 7 years ago was basically vivisection on an unknown organism to try and figure out how to use it and in usual sci-fi fashion, potentially eventually weaponize it? That's probably what shocked Mikumo so much. Fold magic binds the whole galaxy, right? So they've peered into the heart of a mortally wounded creature...?

[d3v]

While they have their regular forces, I get the impression that they're vastly outnumbered by the NUNS which is why they need the Var.

[Saruta]

It was pretty obvious from the start of the episode that Messer was going to die (or that they want you to think so). And I felt his manner of death, with the "controlled Var", was a reference to Guld, continuing the Delta way of referencing all past Macrosses (Plus seems to have been omitted before this episodem right?)

Also it seemed obvious to me that the name Messer was a reference to Fokker so, again, he had to die or else the viewer had to think he has to die. But I did expect him to take some enemies down with him - and did he?

Scarfish and his girlfriend yay!

It was hard to suspend disbelief at Bogue and the others approaching Walkure WITHOUT firing a barrage of lasers or missiles at them. This gave time to Messer to swoop down and save the day. But why were the Knights not shooting at the Walkure while approaching them? Unless capturing them (or just Freyja or just Mikumo) alive was the order?

[grss1982]

So when are the Aerial Knights going to get there just desserts? Honestly they have all the advantage and only one of them dies?

[Duke Togo]

Well, that sure was predictable. It's paint-by-numbers Macross.

[eko.prasetiyo]

well after watchin ep 10 over again, why I think messer already dead when keith shot the canopy. the var seems give lot of pressure to messer body, perhaps he got heart attack or stroke so he can not escape keith attack. on ep 9 arad said messer already at his limit and he exhausted because the var.

[Duke Togo]

well after watchin ep 10 over again, why I think messer already dead when keith shot the canopy. the var seems give lot of pressure to messer body, perhaps he got heart attack or stroke so he can not escape keith attack. on ep 9 arad said messer already at his limit and he exhausted because the var.

Im not sure why it has to be anything so complex

[Master Dex]

Yeah sometimes a high powered laser in the face is just lethal. Actually that is always true.