Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, in theaters summer 2023

[mechaninac]

Wow!  3 day weekend projected take of 60 million, 5 million domestic under worst case scenario, inclusive of Thursday's previews.  With a 300 million budget (likely closer to 330m once inflation, loan interest, reshoots, and ancillary costs are factored in + promotional expenditures, this thing is going to lose well over 200 million in its theatrical run, specially with MI7 just 2 weeks away... it needs to make almost 800 million, at the very least -- assuming a lowball 310m final cost -- just to barely break even, over 900m for even a marginal profit, and there is no conceivable way it will get anywhere close; it will be lucky to reach somewhere between 450 and 550 million worldwide.

[jvmacross]

1. Raiders of the Lost Ark
2. Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
3. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
4. Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
5. Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

 

My personal rationale for choosing KotCS over DoD was based on the finale.....the LC was the best send off, literally riding off into the sunset....but then they went and created KotCS, which IMO has a much better ending than DoD, now that both are out and can be compared.....to me DoD was just another play on the "taking the hero and detroying everything you ever thought would be an appropriate ending for him", think Luke Skywalker in TLJ....Sure, Indy and Marion are back, but they were also back at the end of KotCS with a "real" happy ending and a new addition to their reunited family (Mutt, wether you liked him or not)....but with the DoD, Indy is battered and more or less suicidal at the end, with Marion most likely only returning to him out of pity...plus poor Mutt Jones...seriously?  WTF Lucasfilm!?

[mechaninac]

^ You have two films too many on your list ... there are only three Indiana Jones movies.  Number four was bad but mostly innocuous fan fiction, and number 5 is pure retched IP vandalism... just like the last two Disney so-called Star Wars sequel films, and BoBF, and Kenobi, and the Willow series...

[Big s]

7 hours ago, jvmacross said:

new addition to their reunited family (Mutt, wether you liked him or not)

I actually liked the character. I didn’t really care for how they used the character, but after the movie I had kinda thought a film with that character could be good if handled right. The guy had a gimmick with bladed weapons and tools similar to how his pops used a whip. And he was a motorcycle guy rather than someone that might be on a horse. There was potential, but Disney is really bad at being handed potential success and usually turns it into a failure. It’s like they’re handed gold, but it just turns to rust. 

[jenius]

I haven't seen the new Indy, will some day, but with the Disney bashing... it's amazing to me how much of it has been awful writing. You would think with the investments that get made in actors, visual effects, etc. they would invest in good, coherent, stories. They are definitely spending money on writing, they keep claiming to have talented people work on these things, but the results should be killing these people's careers. I imagine Disney has ten different people who get to pee on a script and call it their's before it's finalized and the result is something that ought to be flushed. 

[Duke Togo]

3 hours ago, Big s said:

There was potential, but Disney is really bad at being handed potential success and usually turns it into a failure.

Given the amount of money their movies have made, that's not a statement grounded in reality at all.

Can we not turn this thread into a Disney-bashing discussion? I'd like to hear what people thought of the actual movie. 

[mechaninac]

1 hour ago, Duke Togo said:

Given the amount of money their movies have made, that's not a statement grounded in reality at all.

Well, $890M in theatrical losses in just the past year, without even counting this latest flop... which will push that financial hole into well over $1B, would argue otherwise; if a movie costs $300M and earns $500M at the box office, it has lost the studio money... lots of it.  Let's face reality: Disney, as it currently exists, is where franchises, and IPs in general, go to die.

[Big s]

2 hours ago, Duke Togo said:

Given the amount of money their movies have made, that's not a statement grounded in reality at all.

I might have agreed with you a couple years ago, but they’ve got 2 flopping movies currently and their streaming shows don’t seem to be doing so great either.

[Dynaman]

4 hours ago, Big s said:

I might have agreed with you a couple years ago, but they’ve got 2 flopping movies currently and their streaming shows don’t seem to be doing so great either.

Streaming shows not doing great?  One not top notch season of Mandalorian and it is time to get out the old Eddie Murphy skit already?

[mechaninac]

3 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Streaming shows not doing great?  One not top notch season of Mandalorian and it is time to get out the old Eddie Murphy skit already?

Come now, it's not just The Mandalorian's third season that raises eyebrows, it's nearly everything, regardless of the caliber of the production or lack thereof:

• Pixar -- everything released on D+ has under performed;
• Marvel -- every show on D+ has had worse performance than the previous release;
• Lucasfilm's content draws fewer and fewer viewers since BoBF came out, and Willow was dumped off the platform because it was so bad it was worth more as a tax write-off than to renew it or to even keep in the library... that thing may end up being given the Arc of the Covenant treatment from the end of Raiders;
• Disney's Live Action necromancy/necrophilia of its own legacy content on D+ spectacularly fails.

As a result, the streaming service lost some 4 million subscribers and is currently running at a financial loss with profitability estimates being constantly updated to a future date that keeps getting further and further away.

[Big s]

4 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Streaming shows not doing great?  One not top notch season of Mandalorian and it is time to get out the old Eddie Murphy skit already?

Even the Andor show was an underperformance. I actually liked that one for the most part. And as Mechaninac stated above the marvel shows have been on life support for a while. Ms Marvel, She Hulk and now Secret Invasion. And of course Willow was just sad. The hope of good content on D+ is going down.

[Duke Togo]

Interesting read. I haven't checked out the script, myself. https://screencrush.com/frank-darabont-indiana-jones-script/

Edited July 3, 2023 by Duke Togo

[Dynaman]

47 minutes ago, Big s said:

Even the Andor show was an underperformance. I actually liked that one for the most part. And as Mechaninac stated above the marvel shows have been on life support for a while. Ms Marvel, She Hulk and now Secret Invasion. And of course Willow was just sad. The hope of good content on D+ is going down.

More like the reality of most shows, across any medium, just are not going to be great.  I have no interest in most of the Marvel stuff so can't comment on those but most of the D+ Star Wars shows have been worth watching, not all are great, many are so so and the Fett Vespa Gang was just plain terrible.  On the whole however the channel is well worth as a source of pulpy SciFi that I like.  

Edited July 3, 2023 by Dynaman

[Dynaman]

Back to this movie (and others in general).  The Imax release schedule is back to normal.  I didn't get a chance to see it last weekend and this coming weekend another release is already bumping it out of theaters.  Bummer!

[Big s]

5 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Back to this movie (and others in general).  The Imax release schedule is back to normal.  I didn't get a chance to see it last weekend and this coming weekend another release is already bumping it out of theaters.  Bummer!

I was hearing that from one of the people working at a nearby theater. I guess they were talking about the upcoming films and kinda turning down the dial of destiny a few notches more than expected 

[mechaninac]

56 minutes ago, Big s said:

I was hearing that from one of the people working at a nearby theater. I guess they were talking about the upcoming films and kinda turning down the dial of destiny a few notches more than expected 

The theaters have to make the business decision on what movies get their most profitable screens, so I'm not surprised in the least that, unless contractually obligated, they'll relegate the turds to second or third tier screens to free up the money makers for films that will actually draw an audience; DoD, with only about 1/4 of the butts-in-seats count of KotCS, isn't it, and could potentially lose them money with every showing.

[technoblue]

14 hours ago, Duke Togo said:

Interesting read. I haven't checked out the script, myself. https://screencrush.com/frank-darabont-indiana-jones-script/

Thanks for the link.

And yeah, script edits are a common thing after a story is purchased. A fun example that shows how edits can push a movie in a positive direction is Star Beast. That’s the original Alien script by Dan O’Bannon and Ronald Shusett. However, as a franchise Alien appears to be another one suffering under the weight of its own success and certain egos.

But back on topic. I do think it’s too early to dig a grave for Dial of Destiny. A lot of the entertainment sites are trying to be first to report on the poor holiday weekend performance, but I want to see how those numbers are in two weeks. Alas, the predictive/speculative reporting comes before anything is actually validated. It is an unfortunate affect of our modern online world.

Anyway, if the numbers stay low, I would be curious to figure out what is driving the trend. People planning longer vacations and just doing other things this month? People turned off by KotCS and waiting for streaming? Word of mouth and people avoiding the film because they read a trusted reviewer or listened to some influencer? Just a lack of interest in the Indy formula—perhaps adventure isn’t something that Hollywood can/should run into the ground? For me, it’s too early to say.

[Big s]

4 hours ago, technoblue said:

Anyway, if the numbers stay low, I would be curious to figure out what is driving the trend. People planning longer vacations and just doing other things this month? People turned off by KotCS and waiting for streaming? Word of mouth and people avoiding the film because they read a trusted reviewer or listened to some influencer? Just a lack of interest in the Indy formula—perhaps adventure isn’t something that Hollywood can/should run into the ground? For me, it’s too early to say.

I don’t think that people are really taking longer holidays, it seemed like a lot of people were working Monday, maybe if the fourth were on a Monday to give a longer weekend, it may have been a slight factor. But recent films on long weekends haven’t been heavily affected by them since the big day has been the Friday sales. Avatar May have been the only recent one to significantly gain numbers in a following weekend. 
I just think most people are turned off from the last film. It’s tough for a franchise to bring back its fans after a big let down, and then the reviews came back less than stellar. It’s also one of those films that turned folks off and not a lot of people went to see it, so even if there were that co worker that someone trusted with a review, that person or people didn’t go. Basically without good word of mouth, the movie won’t get much of an audience until it’s streaming. At this point that’s where this movie will probably pick up an audience since there’s no risk. 
Streaming itself is a big factor when it’s a film that doesn’t get great reviews. Top Gun was able to bring a big audience due to great reviews and word of mouth, but if it’s not getting that kinda talk people just won’t bother getting out of the house.

[Scyla]

Just saw the movie in the theater and I quite liked it.
 

However it is plagued with several tropes of modern movies: rehashing of old story threads, too long, too much action scenes, many scenes are too dark, lazy writing to resolve plot threads…

I find it genuinely baffling that Disney could not find writers that don’t rely on those tropes but maybe that is how the current studio system works (I think I counted four writers credits which probably didn’t help).

[mechaninac]

22 minutes ago, Scyla said:

I find it genuinely baffling that Disney could not find writers that don’t rely on those tropes but maybe that is how the current studio system works (I think I counted four writers credits which probably didn’t help).

The old saying " Too many cooks spoil the soup" comes to mind... and when those cooks use tofu cubes while claiming it's chicken, while calling the customers names for pointing it out, it just exacerbates the problem, leaves a sour taste in the mouth, and loses the customers.

[Dynaman]

Considering the next Mission Impossible movie is out next weekend the take for Indy is probably not going to be helped along much.  I may not end up watching the movie at the theater simply due to length, the old bladder can't handle nearly 3 hour movies without a break any longer.

[mechaninac]

Here's a very thoughtful even keeled -- no inflammatory snark or dismissive rhetoric -- analyses of DoD's failure, the roots of the movie's -- Lucasfilm at large, and other studios as well -- ignominy and fallout:

Spoiler

 

 

[kajnrig]

1 hour ago, mechaninac said:

very thoughtful even keeled -- no inflammatory snark or dismissive rhetoric -- analyses

 

Quote

Disney in CRISIS ... FLOPS even worse than imagined!

*picture of Harrison Ford photoshopped crying, and also... ???*

You, uh... You sure about all that?

[renegadeleader1]

1 hour ago, kajnrig said:

 

You, uh... You sure about all that?

Yeah... Midnight's Edge isn't exactly the standard of impartiality. They had some interesting analysis of the leaked Sony e-mails a few years ago, but since then they've devolved into a glossier less offensive version of Doomcock that deals in the same rumor mongering and pandering.

 

I will say this, whoever green lit this film's script with $300 million budget needs to be fired. You need to either have the greatest Indy film next to Raiders or Last Crusade or a spectacle the level of Avatar to put that much money into a film, and sadly Dial of Destiny is neither. It's not even on Temple Of Doom's level. There is no way in hell this is making it's money back at the box office.

 

For the amount of money spent on this(with as bad as the cgi looked) putting out a "meh" just okay at best film is not good enough.

 

For those that saw it, I have a question...

 

Spoiler

It's not a real happy ending is it? Yes it's nice Marion and Indy are back together(like they were at the end of Crystal Skull), but isn't Indy still wanted for the murder of his college faculty co-workers?

 

[jvmacross]

9 minutes ago, renegadeleader1 said:

For those that saw it, I have a question...

 

  Hide contents

It's not a real happy ending is it? Yes it's nice Marion and Indy are back together(like they were at the end of Crystal Skull), but isn't Indy still wanted for the murder of his college faculty co-workers?

 

Dunno....Henry Jones is basically a war hero and is behind some of the most sensitive "top secrets" the USA is in possession of....pretty sure he has nothing to worry about....plus he'll be able to provide his first hand info on the Nazi Voler...or whatever his name was....it'll all get pieced together by "top men"....

What I want to know is...

Spoiler

...so Helena told Indy that staying behind would have the potential to impact the course of history....in what way would a downed Heinkel He 111 not do that...not too mention other tech that wouldn't exist for another 2000 years such as their parachute....let alone first hand tales of those events?

I want to see THAT movie.....the one that would show what the world would be like today if those items would have been preserved and studied thousands of years ago by ancient "top men".... or would they also somehow end up in some ancient warehouse, preserved and protected forever by the "Order of the Metal Dragons" for hundreds of years?

[jvmacross]

Wait.....Indy Multiverse?

[Thom]

Saw it. Liked it! It's fun, has good action and good characters and interactions. In fact, I hardly noticed the time (and thankfully my bladder didn't pressure me too much!)

Is it a perfect movie? No, but waiting for that perfect movie to come along means you miss out on a lot of good entertainment. For me, Indy was in good (aged) form. Dealing with issues? Yes, as that is what people do and how we handle those issues, i.e. drama, is just as important as story and delivery.  The action was nice and kept things moving and was enjoyable to watch. De-aged Indy was really well done. There were a few moments where the movie magic slipped, but those were blink and you miss it moments.

I liked the overall plot of a Stupid Nazi trying to reclaim their sick glory and basically pancaking into the ground because of it. He had a better death scene than Spalko!

My only Con would be...

Spoiler

...reusing the marriage-in-trouble trope, once again. He and Marion already made up in the Crystal Skull, so doing it again just comes off as lazy and unimaginative. Also, would not have had Mutt be dead. He could have been off on a dig somewhere, just doing something else....

...but that's my only real gripe. I thought the ending was nice and hopeful. It didn't need to be spectacular, it only had to be satisfying, and this was, IMO.

This is one I would go see again in the theater.

[mechaninac]

5 hours ago, kajnrig said:

 

You, uh... You sure about all that?

So, you solely focus on the wording of the header, not the content of his commentary... got it. 

Edit: When the final tally is in and the magnitude of the financial losses are revealed (well north of 200M, perhaps 300M or more), a lot of excusers and apologists are going to have a lot of eggs on their faces.  Face it, regardless of liking the movie or not, this thing is a major record breaking, not in a good way, turd and if these studios -- the ones under Disney being the worst offenders -- don't learn a sobering lesson from all the flops they've been crapping out, it will be a very cold day in hell before they operate at a profit.

Edited July 5, 2023 by mechaninac

[Duke Togo]

10 minutes ago, mechaninac said:

So, you solely focus on the wording of the header, not the content of his commentary... got it. 

Edit: When the final tally is in and the magnitude of the financial losses are revealed (well north of 200M, perhaps 300M or more), a lot of excusers and apologists are going to have a lot of eggs on their faces.  Face it, regardless of liking the movie or not, this thing is a major record breaking, not in a good way, turd and if these studios -- the ones under Disney being the worst offenders -- don't learn a sobering lesson from all the flops they've been crapping out, it will be a very cold day in hell before they operate at a profit.

Your need to be so obnoxiously anti-Disney is tiring and doesn't really contribute anything to this discussion. And the videos you share are hot garbage.

You won't see the movie, so just move on. And stop watching all of those caustic videos on YouTube. You'll be happier for it in the long run. 

[mechaninac]

Not anti Disney, and if just calling balls and strikes is "obnoxious", then guilty as charged.  I wish they would go back to producing good content; alas...

Edit:  Btw, I'm having a ball, as things currently stand, the "caustic YouTube videos", as you call them, are endlessly more entertaining and joyful than anything coming out of The House of Mouse.

Edited July 5, 2023 by mechaninac

[azrael]

OK children, would you like take it outside or do you want to continue and face a boot to the arse on the way out?

[kajnrig]

1 hour ago, mechaninac said:

So, you solely focus on the wording of the header, not the content of his commentary... got it. 

Whoa, hold your conclusion-jumping horses now.  I'm just comparing your assessment of the video to the video's own self-promotion because the dichotomy was like a record scratch and worthy of a laugh. I wasn't at all getting "very thoughtful even keeled analys[i]s" vibes from a title and thumbnail that clearly has a specific tilt, and so I wanted to make sure whether, its provocative cover aside, its actual book was worth my time or not.

That all said, that did prompt me to look at the budget for this thing, and jeebus $300 million is a LOT. For reference, that's right up there with Justice League (apparently that lands them both in the top 10 most expensive movies ever), and for as bad as JL was, it had big superhero names to put butts in seats, and even then it still was a box office bomb. I don't think Indy has nearly the same clout... but who knows. Disney has a bunch of other ways of wringing profit from a media franchise, so... Plus it made over $2 billion on the Avatar 2 box office alone, which would more than account for this movie even if this movie made absolutely no money at all. $2.3 billion - $500 million Avatar production x2 - $300 million Indy production x2 = still a $700 million profit. That's frickin' insane.

But as far as the movie itself goes, I saw an interesting opinion from the RedLetterMedia folks stating that the last major section of the movie - after a specific event involving the titular Dial of Destiny - was what got them to really perk up in what was an otherwise mediocre adventure film. Thoughts on that, from those of you who've seen it? Would you have liked that last bit to take up more of the film, or no?

38 minutes ago, azrael said:

OK children, would you like take it outside or do you want to continue and face a boot to the arse on the way out?

That's my b, I was poking fun at his statement and gave the impression I was pissing on his opinion and tempers flared.

[Thom]

21 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

...

But as far as the movie itself goes, I saw an interesting opinion from the RedLetterMedia folks stating that the last major section of the movie - after a specific event involving the titular Dial of Destiny - was what got them to really perk up in what was an otherwise mediocre adventure film. Thoughts on that, from those of you who've seen it? Would you have liked that last bit to take up more of the film, or no?

...

It took two hours to get that point, but I was just enjoying the ride. Ultimately, I thought it was fine as is. It did segue pretty quick away from that, but it was nearing the end anyway and there is only so much you can stuff in at the wire.

[Scyla]

I think the ending followed the formula of Raiders, Crusade and Crystal Skull were the otherworldly element comes into play late in the movie in one scene.

It would have made the movie more interesting when you diverted from the formula a bit more and it would be interesting seeing the scene at the end  expanded. 

Maybe the problem with these movies is that they are too formulaic, so it is easy to compare them with previous (better?) iterations and sometimes it is an unfair comparison.

While Dial of Destiny is not a bad movie (the Last Jedi is a really bad movie and a pretentious copy of Empire) it is not as good the first three movies.

Maybe that is also the problem with Crystal Skull. Indy is now older, so maybe you should have adapted the story accordingly. Less bombastic action scenes and more archeological stuff and character studies (like working on his marriage). I’m older now too, so I would have appreciated that.

 

[Duke Togo]

3 hours ago, Scyla said:

Maybe that is also the problem with Crystal Skull. Indy is now older, so maybe you should have adapted the story accordingly. Less bombastic action scenes and more archeological stuff and character studies (like working on his marriage). I’m older now too, so I would have appreciated that.

Crystal Skull has the same problems the Prequels do: bad dialog and poor performances. We could probably get past the story issues if those two weren't so terrible. Dial of Destiny doesn't really have any real dialog or performance issues, so it's much easier for me to get past whatever issues I may have with the story.