Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, in theaters summer 2023

[jvmacross]

58 minutes ago, Thom said:

With @Tking22 on this. There was a fanart done with Pratt as Han Solo and it looked awesome! 

I think a recast could have been done, and done well, such as the Mummy idea. 'Indian Jones and the Curse of the Mummy!" But they never did that, and Crystal Skull cemented Old Indy back under the hat.

 

I have no idea what was said on social media from the producer or directors or actors about what was intended. Again, I don't follow social media and I count myself blessed with that wise choice. Most people would probably be better off ignoring social media and all the krup on it. As to her being his god-daughter, I think it was just that. They wanted a close pairing with the female lead and Harrison is way too old for audiences to accept a sexual relationship with a woman so young. Heck, I think they were pushing it with Elsa in Last Crusade as she was half his age!

An idea I had for a movie after Crystal Skull came out would have been Indy going on adventure with a granddaughter! That could have been fun!

I don't follow any social media or have any social media accounts either...but they are not needed...all you need is common sense to realize a) Harrison Ford is going to die soon, b) Disney is sitting on an IP worth billions more in future films and merch, and c) no company in it's right mind would just sit back and not try to revitalize the brand knowing it's "public face" for it is no longer going to be "available" pretty soon...

I find it funny that your "idea" basically is exactly what the last two movies were trying to do...establish a new bearer of the "Indy" brand...yet you can't seem to get yourself to see that that is what the point of Mutt and Helena were all about in these last two movies....

 

[Thom]

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

I don't follow any social media or have any social media accounts either...but they are not needed...all you need is common sense to realize a) Harrison Ford is going to die soon, b) Disney is sitting on an IP worth billions more in future films and merch, and c) no company in it's right mind would just sit back and not try to revitalize the brand knowing it's "public face" for it is no longer going to be "available" pretty soon...

I find it funny that your "idea" basically is exactly what the last two movies were trying to do...establish a new bearer of the "Indy" brand...yet you can't seem to get yourself to see that that is what the point of Mutt and Helena were all about in these last two movies....

 

For one, I don't see their characters being all about that and nothing else. In Crystal Skull we find out that Indy had a son and that was a dynamic for drama not just between him and Mutt, but Indy and Marion as well. Was the possibility there? Yes, with Mutt especially. C'mon, the hat rolling right to his feet..? But the way it under performed put the kibosh on that. I just don't see it with Helena, certainly not on screen. Again, is the possibility there too? Yes, but there was not one scene (that I recall) where it shows her as being positioned to take up his mantle. In fact, she walks off screen with the others and Indy grabs up his hat again before credits roll. So in just watching the movie, no it was not obvious.

As for my idea. there was nothing in that to suggested establishing 'a new bearer of the "Indy" brand...' How do you get that from one vague sentence? I just think it would have been a fun idea and nice story to watch. Almost 'shades of Short Round,' seeing Indy having to deal with an energetic ten year old on a world-spanning adventure. Think of a cross between Indy and the Goonies.

As for 'Disney sitting on an IP worth billions,' considering the poor run of both Crystal and Dial even they have to realize they should let the it rest now and make something new if they want to continue with similar adventures.

[mechaninac]

3 hours ago, jvmacross said:

ummmm...ok

I think what you are trying to explain, but failing to make the proverbial horse drink, is the difference between explicit and implicit, nothing more, nothing less.  In both Mutt's and Helena's case (*), they were not explicitly shown as meant to be taking the passed-on torch to carry the franchise forward (within the movie), but the idea was implicitly there for anyone to see.

(*) Helena's was/is a much more in-you-face attempt by the studio to push a replacement due to the confluence of modern day ideology with current lack of writing talent and directorial finesse.  Indi 5 displays all the hallmarks of hackneyed editing trying to stitch together original directions that miserably failed in test screenings with hastily conceptualized and shot ideas meant to fix those issues... the ending of the film is evidence of the thematic neurosis the whole production suffered in its multiple rewrites and reshoots scrapbooking road to release.

[technoblue]

I would caution against reading into things too much. Not everything has an ulterior motive or underlying purpose. Sometimes a fish is just a fish.

I do think Lucasfilm/Disney is well aware about how it needs to reboot Indiana Jones absent Harrison Ford in the title role. The CGI de-aging tech was never going to be the actual solution. I do like the idea that was mentioned up thread about recasting Indy. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is done and becomes commonplace as newer actors age out, just like with James Bond. However, I am not expecting a switch until the property has had a bit of a rest out of the public eye. It can certainly be argued that the reboot and recasting should have happened already, and I think that’s fair.

As for Mutt and Helena, I will have to agree to disagree about the general sentiment here. I did not see them as title role torch bearers. One common motif of all the Indiana Jones films is that of Indy’s sidekicks. Mutt is the sidekick in KotCS who (surprise) is closer to Indy than he realises. Helena becomes his sidekick too, replacing her father Basil who passed away. Both Basil and Helena end up having a common interest in the film.

Per this Men’s Health article from June:

https://www.menshealth.com/entertainment/a44390732/indiana-jones-dial-of-destiny-shia-labeouf-mutt-williams/

James Mangold noted that he wanted to capture the “energy between Indy and an intrepid female character.” That doesn’t imply anything apart from what we got. 

[Big s]

1 hour ago, technoblue said:

I do think Lucasfilm/Disney is well aware about how it needs to reboot Indiana Jones absent Harrison Ford in the title role. The CGI de-aging tech was never going to be the actual solution. I do like the idea that was mentioned up thread about recasting Indy. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is done and becomes commonplace as newer actors age out, just like with James Bond. However, I am not expecting a switch until the property has had a bit of a rest out of the public eye. It can certainly be argued that the reboot and recasting should have happened already, and I think that’s fair.

I don’t think a complete recasting would work as well as with Bond. We’ve all grown up with several bond actors, but recasting Indy would be like recasting main characters from Die Hard, or Lethal Weapon. Those films had iconic stars. They would have to get an amazing writing team together to make that transition. Mad Max was a very rare exception, but since this is Disney, it would probably end up more like Solo at best

Edited July 12, 2023 by Big s

[Thom]

7 hours ago, mechaninac said:

I think what you are trying to explain, but failing to make the proverbial horse drink, is the difference between explicit and implicit, nothing more, nothing less.  In both Mutt's and Helena's case (*), they were not explicitly shown as meant to be taking the passed-on torch to carry the franchise forward (within the movie), but the idea was implicitly there for anyone to see.

(*) Helena's was/is a much more in-you-face attempt by the studio to push a replacement due to the confluence of modern day ideology with current lack of writing talent and directorial finesse.  Indi 5 displays all the hallmarks of hackneyed editing trying to stitch together original directions that miserably failed in test screenings with hastily conceptualized and shot ideas meant to fix those issues... the ending of the film is evidence of the thematic neurosis the whole production suffered in its multiple rewrites and reshoots scrapbooking road to release.

And I see it in the reverse. In Crystal Skull it was overt and in your face with Mutt. In Dial, Shaw is a co-lead/foil to Indy. Sure, the possibility exists, but then that's like saying Capshaw or Ke Huy Quan were meant to replace Indy merely because they also shared screen time.  The only difference between the two is that Ford is old now.

Though I am entertained, I think Indy (character et al) should be allowed to ride back into the sunset and Disney should really start looking for some new content.

 

[mechaninac]

1 hour ago, Thom said:

I think Indy (character et al) should be allowed to ride back into the sunset and Disney should really start looking for some new content.

On this we can wholeheartedly agree.  Indiana Jones should've ended as a trilogy; both #4 and, in my opinion, especially #5 were terrible ideas that should never have been made because both, in their own ways, diminishing and tarnishing the character.

[derex3592]

Indy rode off into the sunset with dear old dad and friends after finding the Holy Grail. I don't know what any of you people are talking about after that....

 

Wife went to see Dial the other day, I was out of town working, she liked it. Maybe when it hits Disney + on a lazy Sunday night I'll watch it....maybe.

[Stampeed Valkyrie]

1 hour ago, derex3592 said:

Indy rode off into the sunset with dear old dad and friends after finding the Holy Grail. I don't know what any of you people are talking about after that....

 

Wife went to see Dial the other day, I was out of town working, she liked it. Maybe when it hits Disney + on a lazy Sunday night I'll watch it....maybe.

Yeah,  TBH Harrison Ford was too old when Crystal Skull came out..  that was it for me.

A buddy took his kids to go see it,   he didn't knock it but he wasn't particularly enamored with it either.      The teenagers enjoyed it but he was pretty blunt.. he called it  IJ and the Dookie of Depends..  for what its worth.

 

[danth]

I thought Helena was a breath of fresh air and the best part of the movie. She exudes charm, I loved her.

Indy is old so you need another hero character to go with him obviously, and if it was another dude the movie would be a big sausage fest. A woman is the only option that makes sense here.

I think the Indy franchise could continue as movies set in the same universe. Who could resist a movie staring Helena and Short Round? Just have Indy as a side character who makes a cameo (assuming he doesn't die first).

Spoiler

Man was I hoping for a surprise Short Round appearance.

 

[jvmacross]

Did the wreckage of the Heinkel HE-111 plus Indy's spent parachute somehow not affect the future (their in-universe present) that they all returned to?

Maybe Disney will require the purchase of a novelization or comic book to answer this question....

 

[Big s]

1 hour ago, danth said:

I think the Indy franchise could continue as movies set in the same universe. Who could resist a movie staring Helena and Short Round? Just have Indy as a side character who makes a cameo (assuming he doesn't die first).

They did have plans for a show, but after all the talk and overall lack of interest, who knows if that’s gonna happen. A lot of people seem to dislike ms Fleabag and that may not work out for viewership 

[Raikkonen]

1 hour ago, danth said:

 

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Man was I hoping for a surprise Short Round appearance.

 

 

Spoiler

But you got one. The discount version called Teddy. 

 

[Raikkonen]

1 minute ago, Big s said:

A lot of people seem to dislike ms Fleabag

Well, she and the writers made that easy. 

[mechaninac]

15 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Did the wreckage of the Heinkel HE-111 plus Indy's spent parachute somehow not affect the future (their in-universe present) that they all returned to?

Maybe Disney will require the purchase of a novelization or comic book to answer this question....

 

 

DoD is chock full of loose threads and plot holes.

[jvmacross]

8 minutes ago, Raikkonen said:

 

  Hide contents

But you got one. The discount version called Teddy. 

 

Poor kid....probably thought he would have few more "Helena - an Indiana Jones Story"  movies in his future....now he will be all but forgotten...still, maybe he'll become the next Ke Huy Quan in a few more decades!

[Raikkonen]

8 minutes ago, mechaninac said:

DoD is chock full of loose threads and plot holes.

Doesn't matter. Just keep buying more Hasbro figures. 

[mechaninac]

11 minutes ago, Raikkonen said:

Doesn't matter. Just keep buying more Hasbro figures. 

You mean multiyear peg warmers at deep discount retailers that eventually become regrind or dump fillers?   No thanks. 

Spoiler

Worldclassbullshitters has a blast chronicling this aspect of the industry's failure.

 

[danth]

I think some people in this thread would get along better with the bad guys from Indiana Jones than most fans of the movies. 🤣

[Raikkonen]

16 minutes ago, mechaninac said:

You mean multiyear peg warmers at deep discount retailers that eventually become regrind or dump fillers?   No thanks. 

  Hide contents

Worldclassbullshitters has a blast chronicling this aspect of the industry's failure.

 

Yeah, I watch occasionally their toy store tours. 

1 minute ago, danth said:

I think some people in this thread would get along better with the bad guys from Indiana Jones than most fans of the movies. 🤣

That's quite a drastic comment. But please... elaborate more how you see people with an a opinion about a certain film, could align themselves with N@zi's? 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Raikkonen

[danth]

1 hour ago, Raikkonen said:

That's quite a drastic comment. But please... elaborate more how you see people with an a opinion about a certain film, could align themselves with N@zi's? 

Nah. A hit dog hollers. Enough said.

[Thom]

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

Did the wreckage of the Heinkel HE-111 plus Indy's spent parachute somehow not affect the future (their in-universe present) that they all returned to?

Maybe Disney will require the purchase of a novelization or comic book to answer this question....

 

That all depends on how you view time-travel. Are there events that we can effect, or if we change something in the past do we even know something has been changed? Or is there a tangent created with an alternate reality branching off from the event that we will still never know about? Perhaps the future Indy returned to was the one he left, while the past left with the wreckage started a whole new future.

Either way, even when it was happening, the plane became a mythical dragon and perhaps was written into history as such, to become nothing more than a wild fantasy read by later historians and scholars. Maybe it was buried or its parts melted down and used. No matter which, it was only a drop in an ocean as vast as two millennia, swallowed up and hidden in the depths of time.

[jvmacross]

7 minutes ago, Thom said:

That all depends on how you view time-travel. Are there events that we can effect, or if we change something in the past do we even know something has been changed? Or is there a tangent created with an alternate reality branching off from the event that we will still never know about? Perhaps the future Indy returned to was the one he left, while the past left with the wreckage started a whole new future.

Either way, even when it was happening, the plane became a mythical dragon and perhaps was written into history as such, to become nothing more than a wild fantasy read by later historians and scholars. Maybe it was buried or its parts melted down and used. No matter which, it was only a drop in an ocean as vast as two millennia, swallowed up and hidden in the depths of time.

Fair enough, but in the context of the film....Helena knocked him out because she believed he was threatening the course of historical events by staying behind....but a 20th Century war machine is nothing to be concerned about?  Recall, your arguments so far have been that if it is not overtly implicit in the film, we should not be making any assumptions....that said, all we can go by are her statements....in this case, she contradicts her own logic....by her own logic, leaving Indy behind or not would make no difference...both "things" don't belong in that point in time....but the script logic only allows her to drag Indy back...

Go on now....spin this "Pitch Meeting" style for all the Nazi lovers (oh, and don't leave behind the Hindi child abusers and communists sympathizers)! 

[mechaninac]

2 hours ago, danth said:

I think some people in this thread would get along better with the bad guys from Indiana Jones than most fans of the movies. 🤣

Now THAT is a ridiculously ignorant, yet oh so typical, comment...

[jvmacross]

1 hour ago, Thom said:

I was going to respond to your post - before reading that last line...

I think you've got me confused with another poster, bud. Do us all a favor and reread the past posts to see who said what.

 

 

Yeah I know who posted what....the last line was not directly intended for you...

Anyway, I would be interested in how you would spin Helen'as actions to somehow not contradict what she actually said onscreen...remember, you are the one that said folks are reading too much into things and you personally just go by what you actually see depicted onscreen...

So why would she think taking Indy back, so as not to affect the future, be required when she is also leaving behind a WWII warplane and other future inventions like their parachute?  Do us all a favor and explain why, without going beyond the script, that this was a good idea other than the script's logic demanded it...did the writers just forget about those details? 

 

[technoblue]

5 hours ago, jvmacross said:

Did the wreckage of the Heinkel HE-111 plus Indy's spent parachute somehow not affect the future (their in-universe present) that they all returned to?

Maybe Disney will require the purchase of a novelization or comic book to answer this question....

 

I’m not sure why you’ve decided to single out @Thom in this, but I’ll give it a go because, why not?

The movie already shows us how Archimedes kept a number of the future artifacts that the embattled Syracusans found at the crash site and lifted from the dead crew. It also reveals how Indy and Helena, by going back to Archimedes with their complete Antikythera and letting him look at it completed the time loop. Somehow that glimpse gave Archimedes what he needed to complete his present day version of the movie’s MacGuffin. 

I would suggest if Archimedes and his learned Syracusans studied the wreckage of the bomber, then that might have led to the movie’s present day history. In other words, all of that had to happen to keep the film universe in check. If the bomber hadn’t gone back into the past, then the pursuit of flight and the moon landing in the Indyverse might have happened at different times or might not have happened at all as per Helena’s quick theory.

The other important take away is that the Indyverse has a history parallel but different from our own real-world history. It asks you to suspend your disbelief in its more fantastic moments. If you stubbornly apply real-world logic at all times, then you will just end up spinning your wheels. Remember, the Indyverse has a real arc of the covenant that melts faces, a real holy grail where if you pick poorly you are aged to dust in an instant, five real Sankara stones given by Hindu gods, a real crystal skull given by aliens, and now this dial of destiny.

None of these other fantastical elements would survive the same kind of overbearing scrutiny. In fact, none of the fantasty was ever meant to survive scrutiny. These elements drive the plot. People who don’t like the old man Indy films because of the contrived artifacts but who give a pass to the young man Indy films are being disingenuous.

Edited July 13, 2023 by technoblue
fixed a double negative

[Thom]

46 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Yeah I know who posted what....the last line was not directly intended for you...

Anyway, I would be interested in how you would spin Helen'as actions to somehow not contradict what she actually said onscreen...remember, you are the one that said folks are reading too much into things and you personally just go by what you actually see depicted onscreen...

So why would she think taking Indy back, so as not to affect the future, be required when she is also leaving behind a WWII warplane and other future inventions like their parachute?  Do us all a favor and explain why, without going beyond the script, that this was a good idea other than the script's logic demanded it...did the writers just forget about those details? 

 

And that's why you left it in a quote for me, even though it wasn't for me... Tell you what, rather than trying to be purposefully confusing, just make sure you split up your quotes from now on.

As for why she made Indy leave, it's simple. He's a living breathing person with knowledge spanning millennia - and that's just a crashed plane. Left as is, it is merely a mythical, godly mystery that will disappear into the annals of history. Indiana however, is a professor who knows countless historical facts and anything he does and says would reverberate a helluva lot longer than a crashed plane.

It doesn't take much to figure that out.

And @technoblue, well said.

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Thom

[azrael]

M'kay. I think y'all need to take a break from this thread.

[sh9000]

HISHE.

[Hikuro]

Finally up on disney+ and watched it last night. Man......I liked Crystal Skull more than this trash heap. This was an awful movie. But hey, Ford doesn't care, he got paid. 

[jvmacross]

1 hour ago, Hikuro said:

Finally up on disney+ and watched it last night. Man......I liked Crystal Skull more than this trash heap. This was an awful movie. But hey, Ford doesn't care, he got paid. 

Yep...absolute trash and yet another hero torn down and replaced by characters no one cares about...what can you do...at least we still have the original trilogy...

[mechaninac]

2 hours ago, Hikuro said:

Finally up on disney+ and watched it last night. Man......I liked Crystal Skull more than this trash heap. This was an awful movie. But hey, Ford doesn't care, he got paid. 

A piece of theatrical excrement that most certainly earned its status as one of the, if not THE, biggest money losing bombs of all time.  Another feather in the cap of KK's legacy of utter franchise destruction; on the bright side, there is nothing left in Lucasfilm's vault for her to ruin... what's she going to sink her fangs on next... Howard the Duck? 

[Dynaman]

2 hours ago, jvmacross said:

Yep...absolute trash and yet another hero torn down and replaced by characters no one cares about...what can you do...at least we still have the original trilogy...

I don't think you have to worry about ANY characters in this film ever again.

[jvmacross]

1 hour ago, Dynaman said:

I don't think you have to worry about ANY characters in this film ever again.

Dunno....Lucasfilm these days seems hellbent on pretending people like everything they do

[Thom]

That was a fun movie!