Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi, on home media Mar. 13, 2018

[Sandman]

The Republic was powerful enough by itself to stop the First Order before it really even got started, but chose not to. It's the reason why the Resistance exists: they saw the inaction of the Republic as an opiportunity for the Imperial remnant forces to regroup and grow strong. It's the rise of Nazi Germany on a galactic scale, along with the appeasement and blind inaction that went with it.

For many the Jedi are a myth.

[jenius]

The Jedi being a myth is another problem with the prequel trilogy. It's very hard to imagine that the Jedi could be a myth after the events of those movies. I guess you can argue that the SW universe is so incredibly vast that the Republic and the Separatist nations only represented a small percentage of the inhabitable planets so, for all those folks, even the Clone Wars might be a bit of uh "Wait, someone made an army of clones?" moment.

[azrael]

The Jedi being a myth is another problem with the prequel trilogy. It's very hard to imagine that the Jedi could be a myth after the events of those movies.

I don't think that's a problem of the prequels. That's a problem of the sequels and the way they treat it. By the OT, the Empire doesn't fear the Jedi like how they were feared in the prequels. Who knows how many officers Vader choked and killed for questioning him. When you have commanders talking back to you, insubordinate admirals, then the common folk don't fear Force users like they once use to. The SW universe is vast enough that by Ep 2, the Jedi numbers were stretched enough that they couldn't keep peace in the galaxy if the Separatists were gaining power.

[jenius]

In the PT the Jedi stand in front of the armies, doing more by themselves than all their soldiers possibly could, they're front row at the sweetest liberation parties after liberating planets, being universally renowned heroes, and then they're the dastardly scoundrels that tried to kill the chancellor, and then roughly twenty years later, Jedi WHO? I get that there weren't a huge number of them, but how many Supermen would we need on Earth for us to have heard of Superman? Now, I do think it's fair to say everything beyond the reach of the Republic might be ignorant since they're sworn defenders of the Republic and all. This does play into episode VII nicely though. When Rey is like "Wait, the Jedi are real?" and Finn looks at her like "Girl are you stupid?" that might be a pretty good indication of what the Foul Fowl was saying. Someone has noodled with Rey's brain to block out anything force related.

EDIT - I don't want to make it seem like I particularly care too much about this point. By the time episode VIII comes around its 50 years later so lots can be forgotten or seem myth, what have you. I just thought the PT went a little over top with their representation of the Jedi order. I don't view that as one of the chief sins by any means (most of those have to do with story-telling).

Edited February 1, 2016 by jenius

[Warmaker]

No, not at all. I'm saying you don't seem to have been very engaged by the story of 7. I also strongly disagree with you over what makes a compelling hero.

I was a lit minor in college and have been fascinated by mythology and mythological stories since I was a little kid. You aren't going to change my mind on what makes for a good hero. Again, Empire is held in such high esteem because it adds complexity and depth to characters born out of a fairly simple template. For instance, Vader just being pure evil isn't anywhere near as compelling as Vader being a fallen Jedi Knight and father to the hero of the story. Luke disappoints Yoda and then goes on to lose his duel with Vader, and along with it his hand. Faults and failures add to the characters, not subtract.

Goddamnit, I love ESB so much. The heroes try what they're supposed to do as "the good guys" and things don't necessarily go right don't go right at all. It is a far cry with the flawless, good guy victory of ANH and ROTJ. The Rebels and the heroes were getting their asses stomped. They lost that round badly but they were not out of the fight. It's a far cry from a lot of shows and movies where we can see, "Okay, these are the main characters and because they are such, are expected to always succeed no matter what."

ESB. Still the best of all Star Wars shows.

As for Kylo Ren, he's the one I'm more curious to see what happens with his story, more than Rey actually. The things he does makes him a clear cut villain. But I enjoyed his hesitation and reluctance to "Cross That Line," like he's not 100% sold into what he was doing. Personally, I loved the scene with Han and him on that catwalk. For a moment, it really looked like Han was going to pull it off and bring him back.

[Scyla]

...As for Kylo Ren, he's the one I'm more curious to see what happens with his story, more than Rey actually. The things he does makes him a clear cut villain. But I enjoyed his hesitation and reluctance to "Cross That Line," like he's not 100% sold into what he was doing. Personally, I loved the scene with Han and him on that catwalk. For a moment, it really looked like Han was going to pull it off and bring him back.

That is exactly how I felt watching the movie for the first time and I think that is why Kylo Ren is gonna be a great villain. He struggles to maintain his villainous ways which makes it interesting.

[Chewie]

Note: if this is too political, I can remove it. I am not going to get into the discussion about the subject matter nor am I trying at all to compare these two things directly. I am only making a point about Jedi being myths 18-30 years after they were common.

That said: ask the average person about Japanese American internment camps in the United States. This is a real world example of how people were forced to forget, never knew, remember differently, etc. It doesn't take a whole hell of a lot for a government to make its people ignorant of history. Especially if they are actively trying to eradicate the version of history they don't like.

[Mommar]

Note: if this is too political, I can remove it. I am not going to get into the discussion about the subject matter nor am I trying at all to compare these two things directly. I am only making a point about Jedi being myths 18-30 years after they were common.

That said: ask the average person about Japanese American internment camps in the United States. This is a real world example of how people were forced to forget, never knew, remember differently, etc. It doesn't take a whole hell of a lot for a government to make its people ignorant of history. Especially if they are actively trying to eradicate the version of history they don't like.

Or the internment of Germans in WWI and the Germans and Italians in WWII, which are also forgotten and even less known about.

[peter]

Or the internment of Germans in WWI and the Germans and Italians in WWII, which are also forgotten and even less known about.

That sort of thing happened in Canada as well, and it's true, a lot of people have forgotten about the internment Camps. I don't recall hearing about it much in school, maybe it was touched on in History class once in Grade 11, that's about it.

I wonder though, the Jedi would have been vilified by the Empire and made to look like bad guys with the whole "assassination attempt" and all, so how would the general populous view them after such propaganda?

Edited February 1, 2016 by peter

[jenius]

The internment example is a wee bit extreme and I don't know how public they ever were. The Jedi were heroes then traitors. That said, there's no depiction of press in the SW universe so who knows.

[Chewie]

I wonder though, the Jedi would have been vilified by the Empire and made to look like bad guys with the whole "assassination attempt" and all, so how would the general populous view them after such propaganda?

Lor San Tekka was living proof that not everyone fell for it. The older generations knew what had transpired and that was what the New Republic needed for history because the Empire purged the databases on Coruscant. History and truth was what the Empire had made it and much of the galaxy had no idea otherwise.

Han being as oblivious as he was to "hokey religions" was a shining example of writing issues, not galaxy issues. He was from a prominent core world and the clones and Jedi would have been something he would have HAD to of known about. TCW makes that much clear. The core worlds are heavily protected throughout.

Palpatine also made his declaration at the end of 3 which I am assuming was all over the Holonet. After that, I'd assume that the Empire's troops and officers on all planets made mention of Jedi either illegal or extremely uncomfortable.

Moving outside of the movies for a second, much, if not all of this confusion can be attributed to George Lucas being a tool and him rewriting Star Wars history as he saw fit each time he made a change or made a new movie.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Chewie

[azrael]

Just so we can get out of politics, try this. Think of something that was around 20-50 years ago but isn't today. Anything. A restaurant, a toy, a store. Then ask someone 18-24 yrs of age about it. Most will have no idea what you are talking about or have very vague recall. Just as an example, try Woolworth 5-and-dime stores. Founded in 1878 and stayed in business till 1997. They were huge and I still remember when they existed and where I could go to one. There was even a infamous one in Greensboro, NC (Google it). But then the company died out. In a decade, only a few remained while the majority closed their doors. By the time they closed completely, very few people remembered they existed. Now, nearly 20 years since the company went defunct, the majority of people will not even know the name. The next largest group will remember the name, but only have a few details. The next group will know the name, recall details. The next group will recall everything, but this group will be significantly smaller. In 30 more years, Woolworth will be a "legend" of retail. So the Death Star admiral chastising Vader about his "sad devotion to an ancient religion" when that was only 30-some years ago doesn't sound crazy.

[Chewie]

Just so we can get out of politics, try this. Think of something that was around 20-50 years ago but isn't today. Anything. A restaurant, a toy, a store. Then ask someone 18-24 yrs of age about it. Most will have no idea what you are talking about or have very vague recall. Just as an example, try Woolworth 5-and-dime stores. Founded in 1878 and stayed in business till 1997. They were huge and I still remember when they existed and where I could go to one. There was even a infamous one in Greensboro, NC (Google it). But then the company died out. In a decade, only a few remained while the majority closed their doors. By the time they closed completely, very few people remembered they existed. Now, nearly 20 years since the company went defunct, the majority of people will not even know the name. The next largest group will remember the name, but only have a few details. The next group will know the name, recall details. The next group will recall everything, but this group will be significantly smaller. In 30 more years, Woolworth will be a "legend" of retail. So the Death Star admiral chastising Vader about his "sad devotion to an ancient religion" when that was only 30-some years ago doesn't sound crazy.

Sorry, thanks.

[jenius]

That isn't even remotely akin but whatever.

[Dobber]

I also don't think the Jedi were as known as we think they were, even in the PT. Yes, people heard of Jedi, but how many actually saw one....much less saw one doing something with the Force. I think, even when the Jedi were in their prime, many people were still ....skeptical of what a Jedi could do. With most of it being stories told from one generation to the next, ect. Then after the purge it did just quickly fade to rumor and myth...hence Han's line "hokey religions and ancient weapons..." or the Admirals "sad devotion" line.... and would quickly start thinking the stories of their abilities where exaggerations ect. Hell, even Tarkin looked slightly facinated with what Vader was doing to the Admiral. Plus add in whatever propaganda the Empire through in and, bingo into the abridged history books they go. That's how I view it anyway.

Chris

Edited February 1, 2016 by Dobber

[jenius]

Why does the emperor look so disgusting? He's a walking reminder. By 7 or 8, sure.

[Dobber]

He never states what the Jedi did to him only that they made an attempt on his life that left him disfigured. In this Fantacy world any number of things could've done that. No "magic" required.

Chris

[jenius]

He says, 'sorry, i look bad, Jedi'and he's grotesque. I mean we all love Star Wars so it's fine if we can create reasons to let some writing inconsistencies go but I think some people are reaching for that next level to act like they're not inconsistencies.

[Chewie]

And going forward that is what Disney hopes to eliminate.

If NOTHING else they've already said they want a consistent universe. It's one of the primary reasons they killed the EU.

You can't undo what Lucas did, you can only pick up the pieces and try to put it back together into something that isn't a complete joke. I feel FA did exactly this.

[Sildani]

While still trying to make things a little mysterious and mystical, I thought. Hence no midichlorians or wire-fu lightsaber duels, and we'll see what Rogue Squadron does.

[Warmaker]

Midichlorians?

LOL, what about from the 1980's "Caravan of Courage" TV show that came out shortly after ROTJ?

[Duke Togo]

And going forward that is what Disney hopes to eliminate.

If NOTHING else they've already said they want a consistent universe. It's one of the primary reasons they killed the EU.

You can't undo what Lucas did, you can only pick up the pieces and try to put it back together into something that isn't a complete joke. I feel FA did exactly this.

Given the amount of money to be made, I wouldn't be surprised if they at some point decided to reboot the prequels within the next 25 years.

For now I assume they'll carrying on doing what TFA did: generally ignore the inconsistencies introduced prequels.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Duke Togo

[taksraven]

Given the amount of money to be made, I wouldn't be surprised if they at some point decided to reboot the prequels within the next 25 years.

I'm sure they are tempted but I doubt it would ever happen....

[jenius]

25 years is a long time. I wouldn't be surprised if the sale of the rights included a 'no reboots 'till I'm dead" provision.

[Duke Togo]

25 years is a long time. I wouldn't be surprised if the sale of the rights included a 'no reboots 'till I'm dead" provision.

A clause that limits what Disney can and can't do to financially exploit the franchise? For $4b, I find that unlikely. And Lucas has been pretty open about the fact that he just had to let it all go when he sold to Disney.

But, whatever the case, it's not happening anytime soon.

[peter]

Just so we can get out of politics, try this. Think of something that was around 20-50 years ago but isn't today. Anything. A restaurant, a toy, a store. Then ask someone 18-24 yrs of age about it. Most will have no idea what you are talking about or have very vague recall. Just as an example, try Woolworth 5-and-dime stores. Founded in 1878 and stayed in business till 1997. They were huge and I still remember when they existed and where I could go to one. There was even a infamous one in Greensboro, NC (Google it). But then the company died out. In a decade, only a few remained while the majority closed their doors. By the time they closed completely, very few people remembered they existed. Now, nearly 20 years since the company went defunct, the majority of people will not even know the name. The next largest group will remember the name, but only have a few details. The next group will know the name, recall details. The next group will recall everything, but this group will be significantly smaller. In 30 more years, Woolworth will be a "legend" of retail. So the Death Star admiral chastising Vader about his "sad devotion to an ancient religion" when that was only 30-some years ago doesn't sound crazy.

Woolworth's!! I worked for Kinney Shoes, owned by Woolwoth's!!

[mickyg]

We used to have Safeway here in Australia, and it was all bought up by Woolworth's not too many years ago (or was always owned by them and then changed names finally). Funny. In the US, Safeway is totally gone, right?

And I'm not certain that either company (Safeway or Woolworth's) is actually related to its US counterpart.

[azrael]

We used to have Safeway here in Australia, and it was all bought up by Woolworth's not too many years ago (or was always owned by them and then changed names finally). Funny. In the US, Safeway is totally gone, right?

And I'm not certain that either company (Safeway or Woolworth's) is actually related to its US counterpart.

Safeway exists, Woolworth's does not. But anyways...

The point I was making with that post is the general public can forget about something that existed for a long time given enough time even without government intervention just like how knowledge of the Jedi faded between Ep 3 to Ep 4 and even more so afterwards.

[danth]

The difference is that the existence of Woolworth's is accepted as fact and remembered even though they aren't remotely as exciting as space supermen with laser swords.

[Duke Togo]

The Cold War would be s better example

[Sildani]

Oo, good one. The Kent State Massacre might be another. When's the last time we had a memorial or retrospective for that?

[Duke Togo]

Oo, good one. The Kent State Massacre might be another. When's the last time we had a memorial or retrospective for that?

Or Pearl Habor, for that matter

[azrael]

The Cold War would be a good example because it went on for years. The others examples aren't really what I was getting at. It goes back to Obi-Wan's quote, "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times... before the Empire." And then in a very short time span, everyone forgets about them when they disappear from daily life. People were living under the threat for 2-3 generations that the Soviet Union and the USA had itchy trigger fingers. Then the conflict ended and people barely know it existed today.

[jenius]

I would say they're all still pretty terrible examples of real world , sometimes mundane, stuff against crazy fantastic super heroes that single handedly defeated armies of marauding robots and were blamed for the current leaders horrible musfiguring but to each their own.

When was the last time someone told you they don't believe in the Cold War?

Also, Luke is well aware of the Clone Wars so it's not like a generation removed they've made them disappear from everyone's memory.

Edited February 4, 2016 by jenius

[peter]

When I first heard the term "Clone wars" in episode IV, what happened in the prequels wasn't exactly what I had in mind. I figured the war was about illegal cloning, or maybe clones running amok and started a war or something. Didn't think that the war was named after the participants on one side of the war. What happened in the prequels would be better described as the galactic civil war or something like that.

Edited February 4, 2016 by peter