Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi, on home media Mar. 13, 2018

[Dobber]

25 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

Oh, absolutely, it's a ton of energy.  I wouldn't be surprised if the death stars could have been wiped out with something like that.

What I do wish a little is that they'd adapted more of the EU's established canon about how hyperspace works.  The idea of mass shadows preventing jumps, gravity well generators, and things like Thrawn using interdictor cruisers armed with those to yank fleets out of hyperspace would have pretty much prevented any of the plot nonsense in TLJ from the start.

Also, the EU did have a sort of hyperspace weapon, though being limited to the comics, I don't think the galaxy gun is one of the better known or understood of the empire's superweapons.  I know it launched hyperspace warheads that could destroy everything from individual target cities to whole planets, but I don't think the warheads actually impacted at lightspeed.

As for why it's never been used before.. I feel like the zig-zagging literal rip through space that wiped out most of the escort destroyers is a big reason (frankly, I'm surprised anything survived at all).  While devastating, it looks like the effects might be entirely unpredictable.  Being anywhere near a planet might have distorted the effect even more.

 

21 minutes ago, azrael said:

Yeh, they used it here, why did they not use it elsewhere. Just strap a hyperdrive on an engine and fire away. Hyperspace missile.

Like what Chronocidal said the EU had “some” explanations. In TLJ, imagine if the “countdown” to running out of fuel was to instead disable all the safety precautions built into hyperdrives that prevent jumps toward an object ect. Add an Interdictor to the FO fleet, instead of Hyperspace tracking, and make Rose be the “mechanic” that can rewire the hyperdrive in time to allow the maneuver before the fleet runs out of fuel. I think it would work a lot better. Not a simple override, pull the lever type thing. Yes it would still allow for what Azrael said, though. Maybe add a line of dialog about why not make a hyperspace missile in the first place and just state that ships have a built in defense that can stop one but something the size of a Mon Cal Cruiser is another thing. At least it would make a “little” more sense in the movie.

Chris

Edited January 1, 2018 by Dobber

[Chronocidal]

The main thing in my mind is just that building projectiles with the required mass would just be prohibitively expensive.  Even with all the mass in that mon cal cruiser, it was still mostly empty space inside.

They already stirred the pot with hyperspace nonsense in TFA though, and I'm not sure they're following any particular set of rules at this point.  Between going to hyperspace while inside a docking bay, to using it to warp through a planetary shield, I'm not sure anyone writing the scripts really gives a flying rat's ass at this point.

[Dobber]

Oh yeah, forgot about Han doing that to Starkiller base.

Chris

[azrael]

My understanding of the Galaxy Gun is that the weapon could remain stationary at a fortified position and “snipe” a target from long range without needing to move the fleet. The projectile’s hyperdrive was only there to get it to the target, then it did something else to destroy the target. No lightspeed was used as a weapon.

It brings up the question, if the Resistance’s ships had enough for 1 more jump, why not kamikaze the ships at the First Order as they lost fuel. If the First Order is picking them off as they run out of fuel, save some fuel and return the favor. Keep hitting them with kamikaze ships and injury them as they get picked off. 

[kalvasflam]

but how would it look if the rebels, resistance, something that starts with r begin to go light speed with all their worthless vessels to blow up the first order ships.  It would instantly make the FO a joke of a threat, because their vaunted capital ships would be just wiped out with a bunch of cheap junkers.

[azrael]

39 minutes ago, kalvasflam said:

but how would it look if the rebels, resistance, something that starts with r begin to go light speed with all their worthless vessels to blow up the first order ships.  It would instantly make the FO a joke of a threat, because their vaunted capital ships would be just wiped out with a bunch of cheap junkers.

They have Hux for a leader, who got trolled by a pilot.

[Chronocidal]

They pretty much are a joke of a threat, at least as seen in this movie.  They really didn't accomplish anything notable enough to back up the idea that this group somehow has conquered the galaxy in the span of a few days at most.

Pretty much the only way the whole hyperspace bullet idea doesn't hold up is if producing something capable of doing that is cost prohibitive for some reason, or maybe extremely unpredictable and difficult to control. 

It seems like an easy solution yes, but the fact that it looked like it ripped a tear in the fabric of space-time makes me think there's a really good reason it's not a common practice.  Compared with a lot of the other things people are taking issue with, I don't really have much trouble accepting that one.

[sh9000]

 

[Kelsain]

Back in my West End SWRPG campaigning days, we actually used this concept as a weapon against a superior Imperial fleet. 

Of course, Rogue One and Rebels have been tickling a lot of WE SWRPG nostalgia lately too... Dang it, I really need to get my new circle of gaming friends on board with doing some of that. D&D just isn't the same for me.

[tekering]

The Last Jedi has now officially grossed more than Rogue One... and it hasn't even been released in China yet.

I can't help but feel a little disappointed.

[kajnrig]

1 minute ago, tekering said:

The Last Jedi has now officially grossed more than Rogue One... and it hasn't even been released in China yet.

I can't help but feel a little disappointed.

Wait what? It hasn't been released in China? What's the reasoning there?

But also this is a way better movie than Rogue One, so... color me not disappointed. EDIT: Gonna go see it a second time today. I feel like my likes and dislikes will probably be magnified this time around. Looking forward to seeing what my ultimate impressions are.

Edited January 2, 2018 by kajnrig

[Axelay]

I think that my staggering (and continuously-growing) level of dislike for this movie has given me an all-new appreciation for Rogue One.

 

I laugh whenever I see the Nissan tie-in-marketing commercials on TV. I'm like "TIE Fighters? You don't have to worry about those. The First Order would never think to use those against your slow-moving vehicle. They are far too dumb for that."

Edited January 2, 2018 by Axelay

[Black Valkyrie]

 

 

[Kanedas Bike]

23 hours ago, Axelay said:

I think that my staggering (and continuously-growing) level of dislike for this movie has given me an all-new appreciation for Rogue One.

 

I laugh whenever I see the Nissan tie-in-marketing commercials on TV. I'm like "TIE Fighters? You don't have to worry about those. The First Order would never think to use those against your slow-moving vehicle. They are far too dumb for that."

Not for nothing, that one particular issue was addressed in movie when Hux told Kylo and his squad to pull back because the Destroyers could no longer provide support because the Resistance/Rebels had pulled out of range.

That was further reinforced in-movie when those two Tie Fighters that had accompanied Kylo were destroyed on screen.

Not trying to change your minds or argue whether or not that story beat made sense, just pointing out that the filmmakers addressed that within the movie.

-b.

[Chronocidal]

3 hours ago, Kanedas Bike said:

Not for nothing, that one particular issue was addressed in movie when Hux told Kylo and his squad to pull back because the Destroyers could no longer provide support because the Resistance/Rebels had pulled out of range.

That was further reinforced in-movie when those two Tie Fighters that had accompanied Kylo were destroyed on screen.

Not trying to change your minds or argue whether or not that story beat made sense, just pointing out that the filmmakers addressed that within the movie.

-b.

The truly baffling part of that entire mess is the idea that they've suddenly started caring that the thousands of disposable fighters they make exactly for this purpose are in danger.

Weird to think though, I don't think that's really evidenced in the movies themselves?  I believe a lot of our expectations for how combat in the Star Wars universe works are running off of material that's been written off as non-canon.  Possibly one the worst parts of the EU getting nixed is actually losing the established tactics playbook that the universe ran on for the last 25 years or so.

[jenius]

That's because on 1% of the established SW fan-base ever cared for or delved into the extended universe. So, 1% right now are like "That doesn't jive with my understanding of their tactics!" and the other 99% are going by the movies which are all "Pew pew, pew pew" without too much thought extolled on tactics. Still, it seemed a pretty thin plot device to pull off the fighters and the whole "who is faster in space" question. 

[Kelsain]

I, for one, have always thought that TIE Fighters got a raw deal in the EU as having no shields and being utterly disposable. In the films, they're really just as explosive as the rebel fighters - if you're hit, you're dead. Unless you're a main character, of course. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Kelsain

[Focslain]

33 minutes ago, Kelsain said:

I, for one, have always thought that TIE Fighters got a raw deal in the EU as having no shields and being utterly disposable. In the films, they're really just as explosive as the rebel fighters - if you're hit, you're dead. Unless you're a main character, of course. 

Well the Rebel fighter take a few hits, most on screen deaths were from half a dozen shots connecting. While the TIEs popped if a rebel fighter so much as tagged it with a glancing shot.

If you have the ability/chance I suggest checking out TIE Fighter vs X-Wing on Steam. The Imperial side is hard as nails since your in a TIE fighter for the beginner levels. You have to earn them shields.

[Kanedas Bike]

3 hours ago, jenius said:

That's because on 1% of the established SW fan-base ever cared for or delved into the extended universe. So, 1% right now are like "That doesn't jive with my understanding of their tactics!" and the other 99% are going by the movies which are all "Pew pew, pew pew" without too much thought extolled on tactics. Still, it seemed a pretty thin plot device to pull off the fighters and the whole "who is faster in space" question. 

Sigh. Just like in real life I'm in the 99% 

-b.

[Kanedas Bike]

3 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

The truly baffling part of that entire mess is the idea that they've suddenly started caring that the thousands of disposable fighters they make exactly for this purpose are in danger.

Weird to think though, I don't think that's really evidenced in the movies themselves?  I believe a lot of our expectations for how combat in the Star Wars universe works are running off of material that's been written off as non-canon.  Possibly one the worst parts of the EU getting nixed is actually losing the established tactics playbook that the universe ran on for the last 25 years or so.

Dunno man, the only real expectation I have re: Star Wars warfare is that the 'disposables' are going to die and the 'primary protagonists and antagonists' are going to live, until it's time for them to say adieu.

One could say that Hux called that group back because Kylo was leading the assault and there'd be hell to pay if Kylo died. 

-b.

[jenius]

Or maybe Hux didn't want Kylo to have the glory.

[jvmacross]

 

 

[kajnrig]

Saw it again. My predictions was... mostly correct. I can see why people had a problem with the military strategy, but the emotional arcs of the key characters are still really well-told and well-paced. It made me interested in them in a way that TFA failed to do.

Some observations from this second go:

- I skipped out on the early Canto Bight bits to use the bathroom, and when I came back (right as Finn and Rose got caught) the story picked up right where it left off, which reinforces my opinion that that section could have used a bit more editing.

- VA Holdo... Yeah, on second watch I don't... get... her character too much. I mean, I get the role she plays, but as a character... Was she in TFA at all? I don't think she was... and I wonder if this movie would have worked better if she were less prominent here as well. The writers clearly had a lot on their plate balancing three intersecting story threads with multiple sub-threads apiece, which limits the number of scenes aboard the Raddus; and of those scenes, the emotional through-line is Poe. Holdo's screentime thus get truncated and her personality exaggerated, and the unfortunate consequence of this is that in the first three of her five major scenes she comes off as more than a bit condescending. It's a shame, because the other two scenes paint a really interesting character. Given more time for the friction between her and Poe to develop, their story could have been a great one. Alas, balance must be maintained.

- That jump to lightspeed is still so freaking beautiful.

- I like that the porgs weren't just there for the sake for merchandising. Aside from when they're played for laughs, they're integrated nicely into the background. They bring the island to life; their calls quickly become just another part of the white noise of the island.

- Still irks me that the Falcon routinely handles enclosed spaces better than the smaller, lighter, more nimble TIE Fighters. You wanna talk about ruining the suspension of disbelief...

- I still prefer to read that kiss between Rose and Finn as purely platonic and/or expressing oneechan-ly affection. There's very little to suggest that either of them develops strong romantic feelings for the other. She looks at him in awe for a moment after he does or says something, but I saw it as her being more impressed than getting super duper sploosh.

- I like more now what they did with Luke. First time around I kept trying to predict things and couldn't really just enjoy the story for what it was. I still would have liked to see him actually face the FO down, but I also still felt super hype about what he did.

- Yoda using lightning had me nodding sagely. It always bugged me, the segmentation of Force powers that became an unwritten, unspoken rule of Star Wars. Why SHOULDN'T a Jedi be able to summon lightning? I was only too glad to see that arbitrary dichotomy go the way of the dodo.

- Did they create a new sound effect for the lightsaber? I really liked the sound work of it turning on and waving through the air when Rey used it for her impromptu training session.

- I'm of two minds about the "Finn taking out the laser" scene. Ultimately, I think it doesn't work more than it does work. I get what they were aiming for, but the execution could have been better. Here he's supposed to be pitting his personal vengeance - "I won't let them win!" - against his continued survival and that of the Resistance that he's wholeheartedly embraced. Instead of just charging at a faceless cannon, maybe have Phasma survive, have her at the controls of the laser or something, goading Finn. She tells him he's always been nothing more than a janitor, cleaning up after everyone, too afraid to do what needs to be done, to sacrifice what needs to be sacrificed. She dares him to take the laser out, to take her out. He lets her get to him, but at the last moment comes to his senses - maybe he hears Rose or Poe on the radio - and veers away. It's a bit cliche, but as is he doesn't really have any one person or thing to latch his strong emotions onto in this scene.

[Dobber]

My problem with the taking out the laser Canon thing was that he would’ve made it. If they showed it fire just after Rose knocked him out of the way then it would make sense....she saved him from a pointless death. Instead, though, she crashes into him, they crash land, have their conversation and then the thing fires. She basically said to hell with everyone else in the base, you mean more to me. What a selfish stupid idea/act that is supposed to be profound in some way. 

Chris

[kajnrig]

3 hours ago, Dobber said:

My problem with the taking out the laser Canon thing was that he would’ve made it. If they showed it fire just after Rose knocked him out of the way then it would make sense....she saved him from a pointless death. Instead, though, she crashes into him, they crash land, have their conversation and then the thing fires. She basically said to hell with everyone else in the base, you mean more to me. What a selfish stupid idea/act that is supposed to be profound in some way. 

Chris

Yeah, it comes off more as that than anything else. Or not even have the laser fire, have the walkers fire at him, each one not killing but seriously hindering his progress. Something so that it's more obvious that he's in a no-win scenario. Maybe even have someone reach the laser before him and fail.

[Chronocidal]

You know... as amusing as it was basically trying to force the Resistance into a Helm's Deep scenario?  I've got one big problem with that cannon.  Wasn't that basically a mobile emplacement of the same type of weapon the dreadnaught was using to level the base at the start of the movie?  It sure looked similar.

"Miniaturized Death Star tech" my foot.  All it did was crack an armored door enough for Luke to stroll through it.  There shouldn't have been a base left.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Chronocidal

[kajnrig]

^ That gif gets a Like. Operation Yashima, ho!

[dizman]

It was a pretty thick door, now if they had tore through the side of the mountain instead of shooting the reinforced door maybe things woulda melted faster. Watching that gif I can hear the sound effect in my head, that can't be healthy.

[jvmacross]

Did the FO know the NOT-Hoth base supposedly had no secret backdoor?

 

[Chronocidal]

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

Did the FO know the NOT-Hoth base supposedly had no secret backdoor?

 

Backdoor or not, I'm more surprised they didn't just go for the shield generators and level the cavern from orbit.  Maybe this was a post-Hoth base, and they built them in a more secure location?  Or maybe Hux and Kylo just wanted to kill them face-to-face.   

Given the flip-flopping tactics throughout the movie though, it's really tough to say whether they were hoping to capture the Resistance alive, or just blow them up.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Chronocidal

[jvmacross]

54 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

Backdoor or not, I'm more surprised they didn't just go for the shield generators and level the cavern from orbit.  Maybe this was a post-Hoth base, and they built them in a more secure location?  Or maybe Hux and Kylo just wanted to kill them face-to-face.   

Given the flip-flopping tactics throughout the movie though, it's really tough to say whether they were hoping to capture the Resistance alive, or just blow them up.

I thought it was mentioned in the movie that the base was something from the early Rebel alliance days?  Which may have been built as such before they even knew about the Death Star and its type of weapons....which would make giant doors pointless....thus the move to just shields during the post Death Star period of the conflict?  I'm sure it will all be explained in some book or comic! 

[jvmacross]

So I wonder what excuse will be revealed as to why Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Qui-Gon would not have summoned a bolt of lightning into Darth Sidious during his reign?

Also, kind of fuzzy in my memory, but did Yoda actually physically smack Luke during their scene in TLJ?

 

[jenius]

I think he did smack him... Remember though, they're at a Jedi Temple, in a special place, pretty easy to explain away. Also helps explain (with Luke's death) why Jedi bothered going places instead of just casting themselves.

[Tking22]

19 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

So I wonder what excuse will be revealed as to why Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Qui-Gon would not have summoned a bolt of lightning into Darth Sidious during his reign?

Also, kind of fuzzy in my memory, but did Yoda actually physically smack Luke during their scene in TLJ?

 

I believe Yoda bonked him on the head with his walking stick.

[Dobber]

33 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

I thought it was mentioned in the movie that the base was something from the early Rebel alliance days?  Which may have been built as such before they even knew about the Death Star and its type of weapons....which would make giant doors pointless....thus the move to just shields during the post Death Star period of the conflict?  I'm sure it will all be explained in some book or comic! 

It already was. In “Leia, Princess of Alderaan” it is a early Rebel cell base. That book also introduces Holdo. She’s not a bad character, I just thought her stupid lack of logic made little to no sense in the movie, and to use the character just to through her away was pointless.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Dobber