Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi, on home media Mar. 13, 2018

[anime52k8]

1 hour ago, azrael said:

After 2 films now, the prequels are better than this.

That is possibly the most nonsense statement I've ever read in my life.

Edited December 19, 2017 by anime52k8

[Thom]

All down to taste. I think the prequels are meh of every order, while TFA and TLJ are really carrying on the torch set alight in ANH.

Well, maybe not every order... The ship designs in the prequels are a lot better then the ones post TRoTJ.

 

[Chronocidal]

20 minutes ago, Thom said:

Well, maybe not every order... The ship designs in the prequels are a lot better then the ones post TRoTJ.

I know this is a special kind of nitpicky, but I can't really deny that the rotten designs have soured me on the new movies from day one.  Is it really that hard to hire someone with some miniscule amount of artistic design talent who can come up with something that's at least merchandise-worthy? 

I bought plenty of prequel ship designs.  Heck, I'll still buy them, if Bandai starts making them.  The new stuff?  No desire to own any of it, in any form.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Chronocidal

[Dangard Ace]

Anyone that thinks that the prequels are better are dead to me.  

 

Really.   

 

I saw TPM once at the theatre and the other two prequels on tv.  The more I watched the more I hated the prequels.  Refused to buy the Blurays for that trilogy.  TFA I saw 3x at the theatres, Rogue One 2x and I own both in Bluray and digitial download.  Can't wait to own TLJ.   

 

I guess you can call this a balancing of the force.  People that like the Prequels hate the new trilogy.  People that hate the Prequels like the new trilogy.  

 

Spoiler

Leia should have died in space but since they wrote that she didn't, and I'm surprised she didn't go ker-pop in space, she didn't fly back to the ship.  The ship was the immovable object and she force pulled herself back.  

 

[Chronocidal]

Actually, so far, I'm not really loving either, but I admit, I haven't seen this one yet.   I'm trying so hard not to accidentally spoil it, but I'm not sure if I can last until this Friday.

[HoveringCheesecake]

On 12/17/2017 at 11:46 AM, Mommar said:

The Force Awakens stuff was always going to be deadends.  JJ's mystery boxes never contain anything.  He even gave a Ted Talk where he discussed his flawed belief about his idiotic mystery boxes and the isea that the contents don't matter only the existence of the question.  It works for marketing, sucks for storytelling.  And his history in media proves none of his mystery boxes have contained anything nor have they been ultimately satisfying.  Rian Johnson did exactly what he should have and the only thing he could have really done, removed them.

This is all well and good (I absolutely hate JJ Abrams.) - but Abrams is going to helm Episode 9, meaning he's either going to bring them back, or replace them with new boxes. The guy just needs to disappear already.

 

As for TLJ, I don't feel strongly either way. I absolutely hated TFA, although I softened my opinion recently when I finally rewatched it. Still not a huge fan. I do like Kylo. Disappointed they didn't try and do much anything new, and instead focused on a rehash of ESB/ROTJ. In terms of ranking, I'd place it above TFA and the prequels, but below all of the OT. I agree with the above posters regarding weapon/armor/ship designs. A step down in every way from the OT thus far. I do like Ren's TIE Fighter, though. Music has been lackluster compared to the prequels/OT no question.

 

The slapstick comedy, while funny in some parts, could be toned down a bit. It's cutting off some of the genuinely dramatic moments in these films. Mary Poppins Leia was absolutely baffling, and I am not sure why they didn't retcon the film to have her killed right then and there, particularly when Laura Dern's character took over for much of the film any way. Speaking of which, I hated her character, which I have seen some people misconstrue as sexism. I didn't hate her because she was a female character, I hated her because she had nothing to say but empty platitudes, rode Leia's coattails, and her entire plan for the Resistance amounted to "die slowly." The casino subplot and the ensuing class warfare/animal cruelty/arms dealing commentaries could have and should have been cut with little to no consequence. I'm glad Snoke was killed off, but annoyed that he was built up to be some kind of ancient power/supreme force user. Some people are talking like this is good filmmaking, but why should anyone become invested in these characters if the filmmakers themselves don't give two shits about character development?

 

It's salt.

Edited December 19, 2017 by HoveringCheesecake

[Kelsain]

In general, I like the movie. It was definitely different, and went places I didn't expect it to go. I have only seen it once, so I'm not going to try and rank it it the saga yet.

I had issues that many of you have already pointed out, largely with the tactics of the FO & the Resistance:

Spoiler

The bombers - I thought they looked cool, but would have preferred a bank of torpedo launchers rather than a long tube of the same bombs that Han & Chewy used on Starkiller. Compared to the effectiveness of a few properly armed Y-wings against a Star Destroyer, these sucked. Also, knowing your payload, why the F would you fly so close together?

Why didn't Poe fly to the bottom side of the dreadnought and shoot the BFG's? 

The First Order chase. We've all said it - Fighters? They already took out the hangar and the bridge - finish the job, ya slackers... Micro-jump in front? Call in a couple light cruisers? 

Rose & Finn subplot: I like these characters; but the extra location & additional steps seemed overly complicated. I get that they needed to fail, I like that twist on the "plucky hero succeeds while the stodgy command types get it all wrong." But "Finn and a new character need to travel away to a new destination to pick up another new character and bring them back to deal with the immediate threat" was too much. That, and the timeframes seemed really off.

There's never been a Star Wars movie that gives fewer shits of "well, here's what I would have done..." But here's what I would have done:

Have Rose be the one who's able to slice into the FO. She's already a tech-y character. That way, you don't need the weird (kinda funny, but pointless) holo-discussion with Maz. You don't need to spend so much time finding a new guy to do a thing, who ultimately makes things worse for the good guys because he's an a-hole. Have Carrie's daughter help them get off the ship and over to the Supremacy, f you need another person in the mix. You get more time for them to bond directly, or more time to give to Luke & Rey. Or Phasma, dammit...

I didn't have a problem with Leia's use of the Force. I know I saw a lot of comments before the movie saying "I hope Leia uses the Force in a big way in this film." Now it's basically "No, not like that!" She pulled on the ship - it's bigger than her so she flew toward it. Heck, maybe she trapped some air around herself too?

I did really like Yoda's scene, even if he did look a little weird. Something about that original puppet must be really hard to get right. 

Really liked Luke's sacrifice - knowing that he couldn't REALLY be the legendary Luke the Galaxy needed, but he could give them the legend one more time. Although, I didn't expect him to die at that moment. One thing that I was thinking, though, was how powerful that Force projection was. Everyone at the battle of Crait saw him; not just the force sensitives, not just the good guys, not just the people. Even 3P0 saw him, so it was way more than a "mind trick." That's impressive and new.

Beyond that - how did the broom kid know about Luke standing up to the FO? Does that scene take place long enough for the story to spread from our Resistance survivors? Or did Luke reach out beyond Crait, to show the scene to force sensitive types across the galaxy as well?

[ArchieNov]

I think TLJ killed off the franchise for an old fan like myself. They really screwed things up for how I understand the OT characters and universe works. Too many inconsistencies to list down. There's also almost no legacy leftover from the OT for the succeeding film(s). Kinda makes me think they should've just made their own movie franchise instead of linking it to Star Wars.

I really miss the Expanded Universe. In general it was done so much better than the prequels or anything that came after it. 

[TangledThorns]

What annoys me is how over the top they went with Hux's buffoonery. It's a real stretch to believe any galaxy would take the First Order and the Resistance seriously. 

[peter]

15 hours ago, azrael said:

After 2 films now, the prequels are better than this.

Three words.....

 

Jar....Jar....Binks.

[jenius]

It's funny that this is like Robotech. Robotech fans are like ”give me the Macross characters, I need them!" and thus Robotech can never move on. Disney was like "here goes the band-aid" and you can see the sting. 

[kalvasflam]

The out with the old and in with the new vibe is interesting.

It's kind of ironic that one of the things that there is this mock book burning/destruction of history thing going on here, and this kill the last generation mentality.  Feels like a movie geared toward a certain generation as they tell the boomers and the Xers that their time is done, it's time for them to go away.  

It came up in the trailer right?  "Let the past die, kill it."  It actually sums up the passing of the torch nicely.

[azrael]

1 hour ago, peter said:

Three words.....

Jar....Jar....Binks.

One word. Finn. 

I still don't know what purpose he serves after 2 movies except to cause more problems which led to nowhere. At least Jar Jar was the dumbass that gave Palpatine complete rule which lead to him being Emperor.

2 hours ago, ArchieNov said:

I think TLJ killed off the franchise for an old fan like myself. They really screwed things up for how I understand the OT characters and universe works. Too many inconsistencies to list down. There's also almost no legacy leftover from the OT for the succeeding film(s). Kinda makes me think they should've just made their own movie franchise instead of linking it to Star Wars.

Disney will be sure it never dies, even for old fans. It's a cash cow to them.

Quote

I really miss the Expanded Universe. In general it was done so much better than the prequels or anything that came after it.

I will take the EU over this movie and TFA any day at this point. At least the EU got the characters right and didn't immediately throw away the previous events.

9 hours ago, HoveringCheesecake said:

This is all well and good (I absolutely hate JJ Abrams.) - but Abrams is going to helm Episode 9, meaning he's either going to bring them back, or replace them with new boxes. The guy just needs to disappear already.

JJ needs to take his "mystery boxes" and shove it up his ***. He has some nifty ideas but he has no carry-through. 6 seasons of LOST taught me that. Applying the "mystery box" to everything destroys the mystery because after a while, you expect it.

[MACROSS25]

Had high hopes with The force awakens but The last jedi sucked! didn't like it one bit!

Edited December 19, 2017 by MACROSS25

[peter]

52 minutes ago, azrael said:

One word. Finn. 

I still don't know what purpose he serves after 2 movies except to cause more problems which led to nowhere. At least Jar Jar was the dumbass that gave Palpatine complete rule which lead to him being Emperor.

Finn serves the purpose of.....on second thought, I better not say it.

[UN Spacy]

Been looking forward to this review more than the movie. Seems like The Last Jedi is a MESS.

 

 

[TangledThorns]

2 hours ago, peter said:

Finn serves the purpose of.....on second thought, I better not say it.

What is the deal with Finn anyways? He felt the force in TFA, wielded a lightsaber but this new film didn't go any further on him being a potential Jedi.

 

[Kanedas Bike]

Diversity.

There, I said it. And I want to like Finn because I'm in the same demographic. The same way that characters like Rose get created so that audiences can look at the screen and see characters that 'look' like them and there's nothing wrong with that. Especially with brand new characters that were never portrayed as anything different (even existing characters can use a refresh from time to time - looking at Marvel comics). So hopefully this thread doesn't devolve into men v women v this demo v that demo.

 

Regarding Finn's character and his lack of likability from my perspective I blame Boyega, he overacts 99% of the time he's on screen and it's very annoying. I was hopeful that;

Spoiler

 

He'd die by sacrificing himself flying into the mini-Death Star laser, but Rose "saved" the day. It was powerful how this character who swings from borderline coward to borderline hero was fully accepting of his fate to try and help the remaining Resistance forces survive. And in those moments it was probably the best acting that Boyega did through both films.

They did hint at Force sensitivity in TFA when he refused to slaughter the villagers in the very beginning, but after that he was 'just' the Storm Trooper that defied the First Order. Nothing more than failed brainwashing/indoctrination. 

 

I thought that this movie might be a lightning rod because of the chances the movie takes and how it differs from what came before, but I didn't expect the level of pure unadulterated hate. I'm surprised actually. 

Fans:

TFA - hate it, it's too much like old Star Wars!!!!

TLJ - hate it, it's not enough like old Star Wars!!!!

The filmmakers can't win for losing.

Very thankful that I enjoyed both for what they are. New Star Wars movies for old and new fans alike.

-b.

[slaginpit]

Glad I didnt pay Disney for this crap

 

What a joke Items

SPOILERS

 

-Luke tosses his Light saber over his shoulder as if its meaningless

-Mary Poppins Leia

-Luke's weird face while sucking on sea cow teats

-Mad Max chase scene from start to end.

-Muppet Yoda looking terrible and is an Asgardian and apparently related to thor

-Yay its harry potter and the giant lamas

-wimpy  luke 

-doll eyed open mouth mary sue

-big bad snoke is a moron

-petulant Kylo. Makes wolverine look calm.

-seems everyone can use the force. Nobody is special anymore because we are all equal sjw snowflakes.

-aw finn didnt incinerate now I hate that other girl what is her name that didnt make it happen? oh who cares.

-if snoke connected the minds of mary sue and petulant klyo  why couldnt he see mary sue and what she looked like and where luke was?

-Big Bad Phasma is a lamo. Did she survive the destruction of the death star 2.5

-the boomerang joke with the lightsaber is lame in a serious situation where a bad guy is about to give you a case of back pain

-Ooh Knights of ren. Werent they amazing.

-oh look splosions. courtesy of Mbay-

-

So I thought I was watching battlestar gallectica, Harry Potter, benny hill and something with light sabers,

I can go on and on but why bother. What i find hilarious is that people that tell me they liked it, "but they are not SW fans" but failed to miss all the gaps in the plot, the bad humor and the pacing that made no sense, Well I hope those people enjoy the next bajillion more SW crap. Oh and another 10 transformers movies.

 

[azrael]

47 minutes ago, TangledThorns said:

What is the deal with Finn anyways? He felt the force in TFA, wielded a lightsaber but this new film didn't go any further on him being a potential Jedi.

I've been asking that since the last movie. If he's the reluctant hero that got taken away...

when Rose crashed into him.

[glane21]

I’ve been trying to think of any instance in all the previous movies where fuel was an issue or even discussed.  And now suddenly it is the central plot point of TLJ.  

Also,:

now we have to wonder why they bothered stealing death star plans and shooting at a tiny exhaust port when all you need to do is have a droid hyperspace kamikaze anything you want destroyed.

Edited December 19, 2017 by glane21

[jenius]

Holding a light saber has nothing to do with the force, using it with skill does. Finn developed from an angry coward to a would be hero which was pretty good development as far as star wars goes. Do people want a direct parallel to OT characters to accept the new characters? I don't love the character, and I really didn't like the casino arch, but I don't understand the problem with him. He has some celebrity after TFA among a small group and this film is about the small group so he's involved. He's also outside the ranks so there's more freedom in what the plot asks of him and his ability to do his own thing. Rey would have similar freedom so they can pair up for future deeds while Poe will need to stick to the Resistance proper (and either become a leader or get a shiny new x wing).

You guys know the Falcon will be sacrificed in the next movie right with chewy at the controls.

Edited December 19, 2017 by jenius

[TangledThorns]

29 minutes ago, jenius said:

 

You guys know the Falcon will be sacrificed in the next movie right with chewy at the controls.

 

Let the past die, right?

[Mommar]

9 minutes ago, TangledThorns said:

 

Let the past die, right?

Killing every second single instance of the past is stupid and dangerous.

[Sildani]

I honestly hope they let Chewie retire to Kashyyk. He’s more than earned it. Let the Falcon go on with the new gang, it’s not like Han or Lando were her first owners.  

[Chronocidal]

8 hours ago, ArchieNov said:

I really miss the Expanded Universe. In general it was done so much better than the prequels or anything that came after it. 

I miss certain parts of the expanded universe.  There were some real gems, but there was also some horribly broken fan-fic levels of mary-sue-ism going on in a bunch of books.  The nice thing was, you could pretty much pick and choose what you paid attention to.

 

6 hours ago, kalvasflam said:

The out with the old and in with the new vibe is interesting.

It's kind of ironic that one of the things that there is this mock book burning/destruction of history thing going on here, and this kill the last generation mentality.  Feels like a movie geared toward a certain generation as they tell the boomers and the Xers that their time is done, it's time for them to go away.  

It came up in the trailer right?  "Let the past die, kill it."  It actually sums up the passing of the torch nicely.

There's a difference between building on the past and letting it age out gracefully, and slaughtering it without mercy. Ideally, you'd build on it, and grow away from it naturally until no one really missed that it was gone.  This is sounding more like ripping out the roots before you're ready to re-plant, so you get left with an empty field of dirt where nothing's growing.

[Dobber]

3 hours ago, Kanedas Bike said:

Diversity.

There, I said it. And I want to like Finn because I'm in the same demographic. The same way that characters like Rose get created so that audiences can look at the screen and see characters that 'look' like them and there's nothing wrong with that. Especially with brand new characters that were never portrayed as anything different (even existing characters can use a refresh from time to time - looking at Marvel comics). So hopefully this thread doesn't devolve into men v women v this demo v that demo.

 

Regarding Finn's character and his lack of likability from my perspective I blame Boyega, he overacts 99% of the time he's on screen and it's very annoying. I was hopeful that;

  Hide contents

 

He'd die by sacrificing himself flying into the mini-Death Star laser, but Rose "saved" the day. It was powerful how this character who swings from borderline coward to borderline hero was fully accepting of his fate to try and help the remaining Resistance forces survive. And in those moments it was probably the best acting that Boyega did through both films.

They did hint at Force sensitivity in TFA when he refused to slaughter the villagers in the very beginning, but after that he was 'just' the Storm Trooper that defied the First Order. Nothing more than failed brainwashing/indoctrination. 

 

I thought that this movie might be a lightning rod because of the chances the movie takes and how it differs from what came before, but I didn't expect the level of pure unadulterated hate. I'm surprised actually. 

Fans:

TFA - hate it, it's too much like old Star Wars!!!!

TLJ - hate it, it's not enough like old Star Wars!!!!

The filmmakers can't win for losing.

Very thankful that I enjoyed both for what they are. New Star Wars movies for old and new fans alike.

-b.

A couple of points first to the spoiler:

I agree with what you’re saying about Finn, particularly his attempted sacrifice. If maybe just after Rose saves him the cannon fires before he would’ve impacted it then ok. But she knocks him away when he clearly would’ve made it. His impact may have taken out the cannon. Her rational seemed like no one should sacrifice themselves to save others. Didn’t make a lot of sense to me. Like I said if they would’ve shown the cannon fire before he would’ve made it then it would make more sense to me.

As for the differences or not. I agree and disagree with what you are saying. I never subscribed to the TFA is a copy of ANH school of hatred, and quite like it. I can acknowledge the similarities though. I will say that filmmakers can make an original SW movie without going so far off the beaten path that TLJ did. To say it has to be one way or the other is a bit simplistic, IMO. I did like TLJ, but honestly I’m still not totally sure how I feel about it. I’m seeing again tomorrow night with some friends, so maybe I’ll see it in a different light as I’ve heard is happening for many.

also:

I didn’t mind the Leia scene. All she did was use a force pull to return to the ship and science has proven that a human can survive in the vacuum of space for a period of time. You won’t just go POP. And she did require sometime in the Medbay after. My problem with that scene was actually how she re-entered the ship. They just opened the door!

After 1 viewing I think there is a lot to like about the movie, and a lot not to like. Seems like both sides go to extremes for me.

Chris

[Dobber]

15 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

I miss certain parts of the expanded universe.  There were some real gems, but there was also some horribly broken fan-fic levels of mary-sue-ism going on in a bunch of books.  The nice thing was, you could pretty much pick and choose what you paid attention to.

 

There's a difference between building on the past and letting it age out gracefully, and slaughtering it without mercy. Ideally, you'd build on it, and grow away from it naturally until no one really missed that it was gone.  This is sounding more like ripping out the roots before you're ready to re-plant, so you get left with an empty field of dirt where nothing's growing.

I posted this on another forum regarding the difference in Critic and Fan ratings, but applies with the above. I completely agree with Chronocidal.

“As I have said before I am someone who enjoyed the movie and am looking forward to seeing it again. Just to play “Devil’s Advocate” regarding your question about the difference in reaction by critics and fans. Perhaps it is because of the times we live in. A lot of change is happening right now.  As we have seen over the past decade with Millenials entering the work place, there is a completely new way of seeing and doing things being pushed into the workplace and society at large....some good and some not so good. The overall theme that keeps getting played out in both reality and in the movie, is the tearing down old institutions to make way for the new theme. Critics seem to be latching on to the the “tear down” theme in the movie while a lot of fans may not like seeing their old hero’s taken apart that way. I can understand both sides, but can say that my problem comes from the idea that just because there is a new idea that makes it good or better, and if something is “old” it is wrong or inferior. 

   Back to the real world, that is what I have been experiencing in the work place and hearing from many others, that this new group comes in and wants to remake everything because it works better for THEM, with no understanding as to WHY things are done the way they are. They just want to be the boss with no time spent working for it. So in the movie industry people that go in “bold new directions” are applauded. New ideas are automatically  “good or innovative ” and old themes/ideas are “bad or stale”. As a few people have said, just a little bit more time working on the story would’ve done wonders for this movie, but they just seem to be doing “how do we get from plot point A to B ect” with minimum thought or effort. 

Also, just because people don’t agree or like something doesn’t make them fanboys (taken in the derogatory, if it was not meant that way I apologize) but we see that in society too. If a movement or organization does something wrong or makes a mistake and you point it out or disagree with a particular ACTION or point......even if you AGREE with said movement/organizations overall mission/statement....you are then just characterized as a hater in any of its definitions. It’s “all or nothing” with people now and it seems to be so much easier for people to just relegate anyone who disagrees with them down to some spiteful name that is unworthy of listening to. Just assuming they are coming from a flawed or bigoted place, instead of actually....you know....listening to them.”

Like Chronocidal said there is a difference between PASSING a torch and TAKING the torch.  It seems as if these people don’t  to want to learn from the past generations, they just want/think they are right in all things.

Chris

Edited December 20, 2017 by Dobber

[ArchieNov]

3 hours ago, Kanedas Bike said:

I thought that this movie might be a lightning rod because of the chances the movie takes and how it differs from what came before, but I didn't expect the level of pure unadulterated hate. I'm surprised actually. 

Fans:

TFA - hate it, it's too much like old Star Wars!!!!

TLJ - hate it, it's not enough like old Star Wars!!!!

The filmmakers can't win for losing.

Very thankful that I enjoyed both for what they are. New Star Wars movies for old and new fans alike.

-b.

Personally, I didn't like TLJ because they didn't treat the OT characters and general SW universe with enough respect. It's the same reason why I hated the prequels.

There are much better ways of introducing an entirely new main set of characters while respecting the old. One example that immediately comes to mind is the Lunar: Silver Star Story and Lunar: Eternal Blue RPG games. But alas, I don't think many people will remember those games.

Perhaps another example is Transformers: Beast Wars. It had a lot of controversy at first since it was so different from the original TF. But later you see how it ties in to G1 and suddenly it's an amazing story.

[Kanedas Bike]

45 minutes ago, Dobber said:

A couple of points first to the spoiler:

 

  Hide contents

I agree with what you’re saying about Finn, particularly his attempted sacrifice. If maybe just after Rose saves him the cannon fires before he would’ve impacted it then ok. But she knocks him away when he clearly would’ve made it. His impact may have taken out the cannon. Her rational seemed like no one should sacrifice themselves to save others. Didn’t make a lot of sense to me. Like I said if they would’ve shown the cannon fire before he would’ve made it then it would make more sense to me.

 

As for the differences or not. I agree and disagree with what you are saying. I never subscribed to the TFA is a copy of ANH school of hatred, and quite like it. I can acknowledge the similarities though. I will say that filmmakers can make an original SW movie without going so far off the beaten path that TLJ did. To say it has to be one way or the other is a bit simplistic, IMO. I did like TLJ, but honestly I’m still not totally sure how I feel about it. I’m seeing again tomorrow night with some friends, so maybe I’ll see it in a different light as I’ve heard is happening for many.

also:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I didn’t mind the Leia scene. All she did was use a force pull to return to the ship and science has proven that a human can survive in the vacuum of space for a period of time. You won’t just go POP. And she did require sometime in the Medbay after. My problem with that scene was actually how she re-entered the ship. They just opened the door!

 

After 1 viewing I think there is a lot to like about the movie, and a lot not to like. Seems like both sides go to extremes for me.

Chris

I think that we are mostly in agreement, I liked TFA, always have and honestly didn't mind the similarities to ANH. To be perfectly honest was happy to see what could be considered a soft reboot, I just don't hold the OT in reverence as some do. I also thoroughly disliked the PT but I don't need to flip out over it.

I parody the critical reaction of 'too much like SW' vs 'not enough like SW' because of what I see in this thread. I'm far too casual a fan to read any other forums. All of my hobby based conversation come either on this board through direct dialogue, or me reading comments + the handful of friends I have that share similar interests (vs those that could care less about science fiction anything).

To me it's unfair an expectation to have, but really to each their own. It's when I see profanity laced tirades or other similarly ridiculous reactions to a fictional property that compel me to add .02, often to the contrary of the 'hate'.

The movie has some really good moments, some really silly moments (I agree with the waste that was the casino) and some that are going to spur debate on whether those moments were good or not.

25 minutes ago, ArchieNov said:

Personally, I didn't like TLJ because they didn't treat the OT characters and general SW universe with enough respect. It's the same reason why I hated the prequels.

There are much better ways of introducing an entirely new main set of characters while respecting the old. One example that immediately comes to mind is the Lunar: Silver Star Story and Lunar: Eternal Blue RPG games. But alas, I don't think many people will remember those games.

Perhaps another example is Transformers: Beast Wars. It had a lot of controversy at first since it was so different from the original TF. But later you see how it ties in to G1 and suddenly it's an amazing story.

I think this is one of the most level-head responses I've seen that explains why a die-hard fan dislikes TLJ, and it puts into context why someone would really dislike the movie in part or whole. And for me it helps to gain perspective and understanding of why some people would be disappointed in the direction they feel the franchise is going. Granted this could just be one of many gripes, but it's expressed in a way that isn't so incredibly hostile.

Also, 100000% agreed regarding Transformers: Beast Wars.

It's the posts that are all OFMGFANRAGE "someone did the thing that I think is stupid" is exhausting. Emphasis on the rage part of that statement.

'Someone' said we can disagree without being disagreeable. 

-b. 

[kajnrig]

Just saw it this afternoon. I liked it more than I thought I would. Will need a second viewing to really marshal thoughts together, but for now:

It's a messy movie. The themes they tackled were almost always unexpected, whether said themes were handled well or not. I like that it wasn't afraid to reflect the (American) generational attitudes of its own audience, and moreover to critique or at least examine those attitudes. Whereas the last movie was an unquestioning homage to the original trilogy and the sentiments of those who made it, this film is equal parts world-weary cynic and unflinching hopeful. It's a contemplative, self-assessing Star Wars.

I have bones to pick with individual things here and there, but in the end I feel like it's greater than the sum of its parts.

On a personal note, the opening scene got to me. A person of color, especially a SE Asian American, featuring prominently in the sequence, being the big hero of the day, certainly wasn't lost on me and I was already this close to blubbering on the spot thanks to Carrie Fisher, but the revelation later on that she (the bomber crew, not Leia) was one of the main characters' older sister... One of my older sisters passed away some 10+ years ago, and to quote a certain comic, "at times the fact of her absence will hit you like a blow to the chest." That hit me like a blow to the chest.

I won't be looking at every response from the last few pages, but I did catch this from Kanedas Bike's quote.

1 hour ago, ArchieNov said:

Personally, I didn't like TLJ because they didn't treat the OT characters and general SW universe with enough respect. It's the same reason why I hated the prequels.

I don't know if this story is interested in respecting or even has a responsibility to respect the original trilogy. It takes a very... I don't want to say "cold" approach to its own legacy, but it certainly doesn't care for nostalgia the way Episode VII does. "Respect" is a pair of tinted glasses, and if one isn't careful with it, those lenses can turn rosy pretty quickly, seems to the main thematic thrust of the story. "Let the past die," after all. "Kill it if you have to."

[eXis10z]

So I caught TLJ on Sat with great expectations and anticipation. It felt like I was driving down the highway with random e-brakes here and there to whip my head back sprinkled with a little mind **** moments. It's a mixed bag of beans. I liked and dislike it at the same time.

Luke Skywalker: He was a really broken old man who had given up on everything and lost all hope. He never recovered from his tragedy until that very last moment where he force projected himself to distract Kylo Ren and give the rebels a chance to escape. In a way that to me was his last act of heroism. Was I hoping he would appear and save the day with a grand lightsaber duel? Definitely! However the way he did it showcased his mastery of the force. I would assume it takes a lot of energy and effort to do so and it showed at the end of it with his exhaustion. Liked how he dusted his shoulder off after the bombardment. That was a cool moment which could have again showcased his prowess as a Skywalker had he actually been there to fend the lasers off. Wasted potential. Really don't like the way he exited as a force ghost like he was at peace with it. They crapped on Han Solo in TFA and they crap on Luke in this.

Leia: The space walk moment was kinda cringe worthy. I had to keep myself from screaming out wtf at that scene. Nothing noteworthy about her in this movie. I'm just glad there was no awkward farewell tribute scenes like her looking towards the screen with a semi-forlorn gaze. Given Carrie Fisher's departure, I'm not sure how they will develop Leia in the next episode. Especially when 2 of the 3 OG characters are dead and dusted.

Rey: All those theories about her parentage and lineage and in the end we were all crapped on with her nobody status. I'm not totally turned off by that result but it could have been more, I feel. And now she's like some genius force wielder, from someone with absolute no knowledge of the force to advanced handling of the lightsaber in a matter of days/weeks(?) They practically shoehorned it down our throats. At least Luke had some cursory lessons from Yoda.

Finn: Into the second movie and I still have no idea of his purpose in this trilogy except to sprinkle some technical knowledge of FO's ship when the script needed, like how else would they know how and where to turn off lightspeed tracking right *eyes roll*, a lame excuse of a weak antagonistic relationship with an underused Phasma, a weird seemingly romance(?) with Rey and Rose(???) and a very anti-climatic ending for his heroic attempt to "let's save the day by blowing up the battering ram cannon".

Poe: Hello, poor attempt to replicate Han Solo for this generation. At least Han was a rebel with flair and charisma. Poe is but a poor rip off. He has guts with little brains and he's supposedly amongst the top leadership of the rebel alliance now? Good luck to them.

Kylo: He probably has the most character development in this episode. From his hesitance towards pulling the trigger to blow up Leia at the start of the movie to his resolve "to take no prisoners" at the end. Still has some traces of his sulking cause "Uncle Luke wanted to kill me so I want to conquer the galaxy" feel. Probably the only character whose development I look forward to seeing in the next one.

Snoke: Don't even want to go there. They could have replaced him with a talking Snickers bar and I wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Rose: I'm an Asian myself but they can pretty much write her out of this and I would probably feel much happier than what we get now. Cursory Asian shoehorned into a script so it would be politically correct or perhaps to roll in more dough from the asian market if that was even the intention at all. And that kiss at the end was so mind boggling.. Like what..? They had an excursion to a casino for a few hours and she likes/love(?) Finn already? And of course they had to put her in a coma just to add in any semblance of gravitas to the situation. That and Rey becoming an expert Jedi in a short period of time can probably fight top spot for "The most unbelievable story-line".

Phasma: They could have replaced her with any random commander trooper and it wouldn't make a difference. A very weak attempt to provide an antagonistic target for Finn. All tall and big with an outstanding armor and we got this crap character.

Can't believe they killed off Ackbar so unceremoniously.

I think that last scene with the kid was supposed to signify hope after the previous scene of despair by the decimated rebels in the falcon but poor execution.

A few scenes I liked, the opening dreadnought destruction scene, the brief moment when Kylo and Ren came together back to back to face off the red guards, the lightspeed rescue by Holdo was awesome which had the audience in my screening gasping and the chills I got as Luke walked out to face Kylo to "save the day".

Not sure if subsequent viewings, if any, can placate the mixed feeling I had from watching some of my favorite classic movie characters being crapped on for the sake of progression or passing the torch.

[ArchieNov]

21 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

I don't know if this story is interested in respecting or even has a responsibility to respect the original trilogy. It takes a very... I don't want to say "cold" approach to its own legacy, but it certainly doesn't care for nostalgia the way Episode VII does. "Respect" is a pair of tinted glasses, and if one isn't careful with it, those lenses can turn rosy pretty quickly, seems to the main thematic thrust of the story. "Let the past die," after all. "Kill it if you have to."

The "Let the past die" theme may sound cool and all for some people, but if they really wanted to break away from what the SW franchise is known for, why even make it a sequel? Just make a new franchise. Or maybe they didn't have the confidence that the movie will be successful without the SW branding.

Also, it's not just the OT that TLJ disrespects, but also TFA. There was a lot of build up being done for the newer characters and events during TFA that was either totally disregarded/forgotten or just flat out contradicted in TLJ. TLJ actually makes TFA seem like a worse movie than it is because now it looks like TFA was just trolling the fans.

[kalvasflam]

You know, I think Disney geared TLJ to the Millenials, which I think is just fine, after all, those guys will have more earnings over a longer period to milk than the GenXers.

I figure as long as our majesty, Bob Iger continues to milk these franchises for all their worth, I think I'd be happy, after all, any tickets to Disney based movies just go to the shareholders as dividends.  So, I'm all for everyone who watches the movie, whether they hate it or not.  Except you, Azrael, for shame, need to go pay and watch that movie, and pad the pockets of the stockholders.

[Mommar]