Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi, on home media Mar. 13, 2018

[jenius]

If civilization depended on me I'd like to think I wouldn't run away. .. not sure how your argument works.

Long story short 'awww but it's his nephew!' Isn't enough. Especially if his nephew killed his students and maybe other family AND was clearly capable of doing more harm with the back drop of an imperial resurgence.

Edited January 29, 2016 by jenius

[azrael]

Actually, Luke has been gone for less than 30 years. It's been 30 years since ROTJ but he hasn't been gone all of those 30 years.

[jvmacross]

I know there are alot of PT haters on MW, but I think Season 6 of the Clone Wars sort of ties in well with what is most likely the final resolution to the whole "balance of the force"/Chosen One premise.....and the larger SW Saga story arc.....which is the Skywalker family's role in bringing balance to the Force

In the episode where Yoda is going through the "training" to learn the secrets to immortality...he goes through a vision, similar to Luke's at the cave in Dagobah, where he is presented with a glimpse of the future.....when he returns back to the Jedi Temple, he more or less settles with the notion that both he and the Jedi Council had it all wrong about who the "chosen one" was and when the "balance of the Force" would actually happen.....

To keep everything from being retconned.....I still feel Luke is ultimately the Skywalker who will bring balance to the Force....perhaps by destroying Snoke, who may be the reason why the Force has been "unbalanced", as apparently he has been in the shadows all along...so even if Vader rejoined the Lightisde and Darth Sidious was killed.....Snoke was still there skewing the Force towards the Darkside....

[jenius]

Another scenario could be that Luke was off world when Kylo turned and massacred the new Jedi academy with the knights of Ren. Luke, feeling a disturbance in the force, rushed back to the temple and upon see his dead students, went Jedi berzerk and killed every one of the Knights. Finally, facing a masked Kylo, Luke disarms him and just as he's about to deal the killing blow, he unmasks Kylo and finally sees who he really is. This snaps out of his killing frenzy when , realizes how close he was to the Dark Side. Feeling that there is "still good in him" and unwilling to kill his own nephew, Luke force blocks Kylo's Jedi powers, leaving him Force insensitive. Luke then goes into retreat and hiding to better control himself and learn how to better train students to avoid the Dark side. Before that, he also Force blocks Rey's powers and leaves her on Jakku for her own good.

Unknown to him, Snoke comes on scene and returns Kylo's Jedi powers, but not fully... Which is why Snoke summons Kylo at the end of TFA, to complete his training

This actually parallels ROTS, and I guess could make sense...

Is 'force blocking' an established thing? Would that be like killing someone's mudichlorians? Or maybe you just noodle with their brain making them forget their training? I'm on board for that turn of events. It works well with the concept of an awakening.

[Duke Togo]

If civilization depended on me I'd like to think I wouldn't run away.

Up until the movie, civilization wasn't depending on him at all. It was going along just fine. And no, I don't believe most people could withstand what he's gone through and still want to stand up and fight. He's a farm boy who had destiny thrust upon him. Ever since then he's known nothing but war and death, mostly at the hands of his family. Of course he walked away, 99% of us would as well.

[jenius]

Up until the movie, civilization wasn't depending on him at all. It was going along just fine. And no, I don't believe most people could withstand what he's gone through and still want to stand up and fight. He's a farm boy who had destiny thrust upon him. Ever since then he's known nothing but war and death, mostly at the hands of his family. Of course he walked away, 99% of us would as well.

Yeah, sorry, still not enough, it might work in a book series but not on the big screen. In a book we could spend a few chapters knowing his misery and conflict, in a movie he would seem like a mopey coward and you'd expect society to hate him. If there are Sith running around wiping out the new Jedi farm there is a hurdle to overcome with Luke running away. If you don't think so that's fine.

Other thing, does the First Order want to know where Luke is or does Snoke just want to know where the first Jedi temple is?

[Duke Togo]

Yeah, sorry, still not enough

You're entitled to your opinion, and you don't have to follow the films from here on out. Free country, dude. Being you've only seen 7 once and you haven't been able to remember basic story points discussed within the movie, I'm not even sure why you're in here discussing 8. It doesn't sound like you were engaged by 7.

[jenius]

Did you just pull the 'if you don't agree with me you're not a true fan' card? I'm discussing 8 because I'm curious how they'll develop the characters, including Luke, who has an unfortunate set up that may make him seem less heroic. Not having the gumption to kill his nephew is fine, but doing NOTHING is a bit much. It's not like 7 shows what happened so there's plenty of room for 8 to take the narrative in lots of directions.

Edit:

You are an all powerful super warrior who has created a dojo to train super warriors of the future... but for right now they're mostly just children. These kids will defend the Republic and all that is good. One day, you come home from the market and find all of them killed by a pervasive evil and realize your nephew is to blame. You may or may not also have a dead wife. Do you:

A) grab your sword and kill the evil child

B) since he is your blood, try to reason with him but, failing that, recruit someone else to bring him to justice

C) grab your Walkman and say, "I need some me time" and leave

Edited January 30, 2016 by jenius

[Duke Togo]

Did you just pull the 'if you don't agree with me you're not a true fan' card?

No, not at all. I'm saying you don't seem to have been very engaged by the story of 7. I also strongly disagree with you over what makes a compelling hero.

I was a lit minor in college and have been fascinated by mythology and mythological stories since I was a little kid. You aren't going to change my mind on what makes for a good hero. Again, Empire is held in such high esteem because it adds complexity and depth to characters born out of a fairly simple template. For instance, Vader just being pure evil isn't anywhere near as compelling as Vader being a fallen Jedi Knight and father to the hero of the story. Luke disappoints Yoda and then goes on to lose his duel with Vader, and along with it his hand. Faults and failures add to the characters, not subtract.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Duke Togo

[jenius]

None of that I would disagree. I just feel the hurdle here is bigger for the writers to clear and if they don't provide sufficient color in 8 Luke may be viewed with less regard rather than more. As it is, he seems fairly derelict even if we can sympathize with his reasons.

[Chewie]

I think you're putting too much stock into people questioning Luke's disappearance.

It's Star Wars: bad stuff happens and people go into hiding while evil has its way with the galaxy. Doesn't make him any less of a hero to have followed the key points of what makes Star Wars Star Wars.

All part and parcel to the whole lone Jedi gig; huge responsibility, too much excess baggage to deal with it properly.

It feels like you've just continuously missed something over and over here.

[jenius]

I think I'm putting too much stock into it because its come up in a few of the conversations i've had with others about the film (never in a complimentary way). Those conversations haven't been with huge Star Wars diehards because when a film makes as much as SW, it needs to satisfy casual enthusiasts. For my part, I don't believe they're just going to leave it unsaid (and apparently it's fine with several people here if they do). They could use Yoda as a template. Luke could say that he left when he realized he wasn't the one that was supposed to defeat Snoke and that he knew he had to leave so he could be the person who teaches 'the one' to beat Snoke. That would be very Yoda-like, especially if we learn that Snoke did do battle with Luke and survived (like Yoda did with Palpatine).

[Dynaman]

Up until the movie, civilization wasn't depending on him at all. It was going along just fine. And no, I don't believe most people could withstand what he's gone through and still want to stand up and fight. He's a farm boy who had destiny thrust upon him. Ever since then he's known nothing but war and death, mostly at the hands of his family. Of course he walked away, 99% of us would as well.

Yes, actually it was. The neo-empire started due to Luke's ditching the scene (the only fully trained Jedi) to someone who had to be pretty evil and most likely a Sith. Plot wise it was easy to see why this was done - to give the new characters a chance to be the heros. For Episode 8 they have a good bit of backstory to fill in - now that Luke (probably) will get some actual screen time we will most likely get that backstory.

[taksraven]

It's hardly like Luke is the first Jedi we have seen move into a self-imposed exile when things seem to be going extremely bad. I was more annoyed when Yoda pissed off at the end of Episode III claiming he could not defeat Palpatine and *that was it* for him. You would have thought he would have caught up with Kenobi later to help raise and train Luke and/or Leia, but nooooooooooooo.

[jenius]

I know there are alot of PT haters on MW, but I think Season 6 of the Clone Wars sort of ties in well with what is most likely the final resolution to the whole "balance of the force"/Chosen One premise.....and the larger SW Saga story arc.....which is the Skywalker family's role in bringing balance to the Force

In the episode where Yoda is going through the "training" to learn the secrets to immortality...he goes through a vision, similar to Luke's at the cave in Dagobah, where he is presented with a glimpse of the future.....when he returns back to the Jedi Temple, he more or less settles with the notion that both he and the Jedi Council had it all wrong about who the "chosen one" was and when the "balance of the Force" would actually happen.....

To keep everything from being retconned.....I still feel Luke is ultimately the Skywalker who will bring balance to the Force....perhaps by destroying Snoke, who may be the reason why the Force has been "unbalanced", as apparently he has been in the shadows all along...so even if Vader rejoined the Lightisde and Darth Sidious was killed.....Snoke was still there skewing the Force towards the Darkside....

I will say this, Clone Wars is fun even if i think the prequels were terrible. I think the medium works so much better for Lucas' vision for the prequel universe. I don't think I ever made it to the Yoda episode you're referencing but I do think it leads smack into one of the many issues with the prequel universe; the over reliance on "the chosen one" and the notion of "bringing balance to the force." Didn't everyone when they first heard that, knowing about the original trilogy, immediately think "Wouldn't balance be two Jedi and two Sith?" There next thought was probably "Isn't the rule of two really stupid?" I mean, Anakin DID balance the force. It was two Sith and two (known) Jedi by the time he and the Emperor were through. Now you could easily say "the balance has nothing to do with number of force wielders" and then make an argument for whether or not Luke has (or will) accomplish the balance but I really think the 'balance' well is poisoned and I hope 8 doesn't go back to it.

It's hardly like Luke is the first Jedi we have seen move into a self-imposed exile when things seem to be going extremely bad. I was more annoyed when Yoda pissed off at the end of Episode III claiming he could not defeat Palpatine and *that was it* for him. You would have thought he would have caught up with Kenobi later to help raise and train Luke and/or Leia, but nooooooooooooo.

Right, Yoda and ObiWan both cut out at the end of III but we're given reasons (not necessarily strong ones) as to why.The Sith had just seriously schlacked the Jedi too so there had to be a little "we need to retreat and regroup" feeling going on and if Yoda can sense the future he probably knew it was best to wait a long while for the right opportunity. Like I said before, 8 could go there, but it ought to speak to Luke's having this epiphany which would only take a simple line of dialog. "I couldn't bring myself to kill ObiWanSolo, and Snoke was too powerful even for me, I had to seek out guidance from the ancient Jedi teachings. Here I realized that it took a Kenobi to defeat a Skywalker before, and it's going to take a Kenobi to beat the child of a Skywalker now." That'd be enough for me although they'll obviously have to clear things up for Rey also.

Edited January 30, 2016 by jenius

[Dynaman]

It's hardly like Luke is the first Jedi we have seen move into a self-imposed exile when things seem to be going extremely bad. I was more annoyed when Yoda pissed off at the end of Episode III claiming he could not defeat Palpatine and *that was it* for him. You would have thought he would have caught up with Kenobi later to help raise and train Luke and/or Leia, but nooooooooooooo.

Yoda actually could not defeat the emperor, he tried, failed, and knew he would never get another chance like that again - with just himself and the Emperor. The difference is the Republic (or whatever it is called) and Luke were more than powerful enough to stop the neo-empire if Luke had acted.

[Duke Togo]

Yoda actually could not defeat the emperor, he tried, failed, and knew he would never get another chance like that again - with just himself and the Emperor. The difference is the Republic (or whatever it is called) and Luke were more than powerful enough to stop the neo-empire if Luke had acted.

The Republic was powerful enough by itself to stop the First Order before it really even got started, but chose not to. It's the reason why the Resistance exists: they saw the inaction of the Republic as an opportunity for the Imperial remnant forces to regroup and grow strong. It's the rise of Nazi Germany on a galactic scale, along with the appeasement and blind inaction that went with it.

For many the Jedi are a myth.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Duke Togo

[Scyla]

I think the problem with Luke (and I can see where jenius is coming from) is that he doesn't do anything. I personally would not have had him show up at the end of Episode 8. Now we are sitting here and discussing for two years why he is an hermit for the last few years on a seemingly empty planet. I think it would have perfectly fine to end the movie with Rei boarding the Millenium Falcon and taking off. Instead JJ Abrams had to shove the fact that Mark Hamil is back into our faces.

The problem is that Luke is portrait as the main focal point of the story even if he shouldn't be. The movie even starts with the line that Luke is missing putting him in the center spot. Of course this is more of a problem with older fans since for them (and me) Luke was always the hero of the Star Wars movies. For that he has not enough screen time thus creating a discussion about his motives.

Maybe a movie that focused more on the current state of the universe would be a better kick-off point for a new trilogy.

[the_foul_fowl]

In the context of the OT and PT, we've seen how Obi-wan and Luke were both unwilling to kill Anakin and Vader when they had the upper hand, so it's not implausible that Luke would have refrained from killing Kylo, if Kylo at the end was grovelling for mercy...

While Force-blocking and cancelling of memories still hasnt been established as canon in the PT/OT and CW/Rebels, I think TFA is really hinting at this, when we consider Rey's blocked memories and how she apparently knows how to use the Force though she has no recollection. Also, TFA seems to suggest a more telepathic Force, as when Kylo tried to draw out Poe/Rey's memories.

If Luke did manage to remove Kylo's Force abilities, then Luke wouldn't have any reason to kill the apparently hapless Kylo, since Kylo could no longer harm anyone else.

As for Snoke, the current canon is that he's an ancient evil, IIRC. Which means he predates the PT, when the Jedi were still strong and dominant. If even Yoda and the Jedi council were oblivious of Snoke then, Luke may not have known it was Snoke who turned Kylo. In fact, Luke may have blamed himself, which spurred Luke to look for the Jedi temple to look for answers. And if he thought that the only Force user left in the galaxy was himself, he may have felt he was no longer needed. The First Order could be dealt with by the Republic, there was no Sith behind it. Or so he thought.

Though it was 30 years between ROTJ and TFA, as rightly pointed out, Luke probably didn't disappear for 30 years. Given that the massacre happened when Kylo was an adult, going by flashback, Luke could have disappeared for 10 years or less?

And if Luke did go into seclusion a la Yoda, he probably wasn't aware of the rise of the First Order, or Kylo's return.

Anyway, this is all fan conjecture! Might just turn out that Snokes was really Jar Jar all along...

[jvmacross]

In the context of the OT and PT, we've seen how Obi-wan and Luke were both unwilling to kill Anakin and Vader when they had the upper hand, so it's not implausible that Luke would have refrained from killing Kylo, if Kylo at the end was grovelling for mercy...

While Force-blocking and cancelling of memories still hasnt been established as canon in the PT/OT and CW/Rebels, I think TFA is really hinting at this, when we consider Rey's blocked memories and how she apparently knows how to use the Force though she has no recollection. Also, TFA seems to suggest a more telepathic Force, as when Kylo tried to draw out Poe/Rey's memories.

If Luke did manage to remove Kylo's Force abilities, then Luke wouldn't have any reason to kill the apparently hapless Kylo, since Kylo could no longer harm anyone else.

As for Snoke, the current canon is that he's an ancient evil, IIRC. Which means he predates the PT, when the Jedi were still strong and dominant. If even Yoda and the Jedi council were oblivious of Snoke then, Luke may not have known it was Snoke who turned Kylo. In fact, Luke may have blamed himself, which spurred Luke to look for the Jedi temple to look for answers. And if he thought that the only Force user left in the galaxy was himself, he may have felt he was no longer needed. The First Order could be dealt with by the Republic, there was no Sith behind it. Or so he thought.

Though it was 30 years between ROTJ and TFA, as rightly pointed out, Luke probably didn't disappear for 30 years. Given that the massacre happened when Kylo was an adult, going by flashback, Luke could have disappeared for 10 years or less?

And if Luke did go into seclusion a la Yoda, he probably wasn't aware of the rise of the First Order, or Kylo's return.

Anyway, this is all fan conjecture! Might just turn out that Snokes was really Jar Jar all along...

Except Leia tells Han that Snoke seduced Ben....so if they knew about Snoke, it is likely Luke did as well....

Snoke has to be the biggest evil badass to date to have spooked Luke into exile....I mean Luke stood up to the Emperor...even put his life on the line just to oppose his will/plan to turn him to the darkside...

This Snoke guy has more or less shattered anything we thought we knew about the Force, Jedi, Sith, Rule of Two, Jedi Chosen One prophecy, etc...

All we can do is just go with it and see where it takes us....

[jvmacross]

The problem is that Luke is portrait as the main focal point of the story even if he shouldn't be. The movie even starts with the line that Luke is missing putting him in the center spot. Of course this is more of a problem with older fans since for them (and me) Luke was always the hero of the Star Wars movies. For that he has not enough screen time thus creating a discussion about his motives.

Maybe a movie that focused more on the current state of the universe would be a better kick-off point for a new trilogy.

But I think it is because Luke (and I think Leia may have a bigger role in the ST) IS the central focus of the ENTIRE saga.....

Heck....once again....we are left with the concept of Luke being the hope of the galaxy....it happens at the end of ROTS....and again at the end of TFA...

This first movie of the ST should have started with a search for Ben instead of a search for Luke....

[Scyla]

I have a quick question about the passing of time in the Star Wars universe. To me it feels wrong. When I first watched Episode 4 the clone wars Obi-Wan mentions seem to be far far away. Probably because the age of Obi-Wan and how everyone thinks that the Force is an ancient relegion. Then it turns out the Clone Wars where mere 30 years away but it was enough to reshape the galaxy completely. Then between RotJ and TFa again 30 years pass but nothing happens. The story could literally start a few years after the end of Episode 6. I mean shouldn't look have trained at least one or two generations of Jedi in before Ben was old enough to betray him? Where are they? Why didn't they have more impact on the universe before they where all wiped out by the hands of the Knights of Ren?

[jvmacross]

Look at the tiananmen square massacre...you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in China born afterwards to know about it.....same concept with the Galactic Empire under the control of the Sith...except even more plausible because it's a movie...

As for when Luke started training Jedi...dunno...but he trained Ben and per the novelization....Han had never seen Ben's adult face....so maybe for at least 15 years? How old is Ben/Kylo in TFA? Maybe 25-30? I'm guessing that Luke started training 1-5 years after ROTJ.

Edited January 30, 2016 by jvmacross

[Scyla]

Oh I can see that it is plausible for that stuff to happen. It just felt like the Clone Wars where far further back than they actually where when I first saw Episode 4. I was just curious if anyone else feels that the time in this galaxy flows strangely.

[jvmacross]

Yeah...the CW were like 20 years or so before ANH....dunno...I guess Kenobi looks older than he should by the time he makes contact with Luke...the timing all works out "from a certain point of view ”...

[Mommar]

I will say this, Clone Wars is fun even if i think the prequels were terrible. I think the medium works so much better for Lucas' vision for the prequel universe. I don't think I ever made it to the Yoda episode you're referencing but I do think it leads smack into one of the many issues with the prequel universe; the over reliance on "the chosen one" and the notion of "bringing balance to the force." Didn't everyone when they first heard that, knowing about the original trilogy, immediately think "Wouldn't balance be two Jedi and two Sith?" There next thought was probably "Isn't the rule of two really stupid?" I mean, Anakin DID balance the force. It was two Sith and two (known) Jedi by the time he and the Emperor were through. Now you could easily say "the balance has nothing to do with number of force wielders" and then make an argument for whether or not Luke has (or will) accomplish the balance but I really think the 'balance' well is poisoned and I hope 8 doesn't go back to it.

Right, Yoda and ObiWan both cut out at the end of III but we're given reasons (not necessarily strong ones) as to why.The Sith had just seriously schlacked the Jedi too so there had to be a little "we need to retreat and regroup" feeling going on and if Yoda can sense the future he probably knew it was best to wait a long while for the right opportunity. Like I said before, 8 could go there, but it ought to speak to Luke's having this epiphany which would only take a simple line of dialog. "I couldn't bring myself to kill ObiWanSolo, and Snoke was too powerful even for me, I had to seek out guidance from the ancient Jedi teachings. Here I realized that it took a Kenobi to defeat a Skywalker before, and it's going to take a Kenobi to beat the child of a Skywalker now." That'd be enough for me although they'll obviously have to clear things up for Rey also.

You know I badly wanted Rey to be Luke's kid but I like the idea that the balancer was actually Obi-Wan and Rey is another Kenobi who has to do it.

[miles316]

I have a quick question about the passing of time in the Star Wars universe. To me it feels wrong. When I first watched Episode 4 the clone wars Obi-Wan mentions seem to be far far away. Probably because the age of Obi-Wan and how everyone thinks that the Force is an ancient relegion. Then it turns out the Clone Wars where mere 30 years away but it was enough to reshape the galaxy completely. Then between RotJ and TFa again 30 years pass but nothing happens. The story could literally start a few years after the end of Episode 6. I mean shouldn't look have trained at least one or two generations of Jedi in before Ben was old enough to betray him? Where are they? Why didn't they have more impact on the universe before they where all wiped out by the hands of the Knights of Ren?

I assume any Jedi who survived the Purge and passed on their knowledge to a new generation of students would have a ingrained distrust of Governments, and so Luke might have been the first person to openly claim to be a Jedi, and tried to build a training center for the Jedi arts.

[Duke Togo]

I have a quick question about the passing of time in the Star Wars universe. To me it feels wrong. When I first watched Episode 4 the clone wars Obi-Wan mentions seem to be far far away. Probably because the age of Obi-Wan and how everyone thinks that the Force is an ancient relegion. Then it turns out the Clone Wars where mere 30 years away but it was enough to reshape the galaxy completely. Then between RotJ and TFa again 30 years pass but nothing happens. The story could literally start a few years after the end of Episode 6. I mean shouldn't look have trained at least one or two generations of Jedi in before Ben was old enough to betray him? Where are they? Why didn't they have more impact on the universe before they where all wiped out by the hands of the Knights of Ren?

The Clone Wars took place 22 years BBY.

The new generation of Jedi Luke was training were wiped out by the Kylo and his Knights of Ren, and the new Jedi Temple was burned to the ground. Whether or not any of the other students where included among the Knights of Ren is currently unknown. Ben is 30 years old as of TFA, and it's estimated the fall of the new Jedi Temple occurred when he was 15 or 16, in 20 ABY.

The Rebellion against the Empire officially ends 5 years ABY with the Battle of Jakku, and 27 years after the Clone Wars. Ben Solo is born sometime in the year and a half before the Battle of Jakku. This gives Luke roughly 15 years to train new students if he started right away. That leaves 14 years since the destruction of the new Temple that no new Jedi have been undergoing training.

Note: For the record, Alec Guinness was 62 when he filmed the original Star Wars

Edited January 31, 2016 by Duke Togo

[Sildani]

Assassin. Gentleman. Star Wars chronicler. Duke.

[Duke Togo]

Assassin. Gentleman. Star Wars chronicler. Duke.

Who loves ya, baby?

[Scyla]

Hehe, I know if you do the math it probably all works out and of course you can find reasons why Luke didn't start to train Jedis right away. I just wanted to know if anyone else had the feeling that time flows strangely in the Star Wars universe. Apparently the answer is no so I'm satisfied.

As I said in the Transformers thread: I'm a very special snowflake.

[Duke Togo]

Hehe, I know if you do the math it probably all works out and of course you can find reasons why Luke didn't start to train Jedis right away. I just wanted to know if anyone else had the feeling that time flows strangely in the Star Wars universe. Apparently the answer is no so I'm satisfied.

The prequel era stuff creates a lot of issues with the continuity, which is why I choose to ignore it.

[Duke Togo]

Anthony Daniels tweeted out that he just read the Ep. 8 script yesterday, which means whatever revisions Rian Johnson made were likely more minor than what was being reported. This was as had been guessed here, as principle photography was only delayed by a few weeks.

I'd be surprised if they script change wasn't related to the news that came out in early January that the two female roles they were trying to cast were cut to one.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Duke Togo

[miles316]

Will Leia have a larger role and go into Ben/Kylo's child hood.

[jvmacross]

Well, Ben/Kylo just killed his father....will he do the same to his mother?....or, in keeping with the whole girl power theme, will mom bring back his son this time around?