Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[RedWolf]

BD Vol.4's liner notes are exceedingly light on technical material, but there is one point of interest therein. The Aerial Knights don't use EX-Gear, and their ejector seat doesn't seem like it's got maneuvering thrusters built into it. Apparently their pilot suit has a pair of extendable winglets with verniers built in... it's the gold trim bits shaped like <> on the backpack.

This huh?

[Seto Kaiba]

Aerial knigh pilot suit back.jpgThis huh?

Yep, that. It folds out into this weird double-jointed winglet thing that the art shows firing little pink plumes of exhaust that, for some reason I cannot precisely recall, puts me in the mind of Gundam SEED.

[Sandman]

There sure is a lot of detail in delta that never ends up on the screen.

[Seto Kaiba]

There sure is a lot of detail in delta that never ends up on the screen.

That's true of a lot of Macross shows... and, to be frank, a decent-sized crosssection of anime in general.

[Marzan]

That's true of a lot of Macross shows... and, to be frank, a decent-sized crosssection of anime in general.

I agree. In quite a lot of anime shows I find that sometimes the people behind the shows don't see the forest for the trees. They go into ridiculous amounts of detail for certain things.

[Seto Kaiba]

I agree. In quite a lot of anime shows I find that sometimes the people behind the shows don't see the forest for the trees. They go into ridiculous amounts of detail for certain things.

Not just anime... one of my favorite manga titles, Five Star Stories, has at least as much material in supplemental publications as it does in the actual story.

Macross Delta's info is actually shockingly thin on the ground for a Macross title...

[NZEOD]

Shoji likes his design work and making things that COULD be real so he WOULD go into insane detail on things that you may see only fleetingly.

[This Confuses Gamlin]

That doesn't seem like it would do a lot in an atmosphere, but... magic!

[RedWolf]

That doesn't seem like it would do a lot in an atmosphere, but... magic!

Depends if they are wearing these bird suits. Notice their backs.

I'm guessing the reason why Windermere refuses to adopt the Ex-Gear is because their wing-glide suits would become a lost art. According to the Newtype article warriors on Windermere 40 years prior used to raid castles with these suits and flying beasts which I guess are these birds.

[Zinjo]

There sure is a lot of detail in delta that never ends up on the screen.

The more background that is created the more story options are available, whether it is used or not.

[Graham]

Does anyone have thrust-to-weight ratio figures handy they could post for:

• VF-31J
• VF-31J Super
• VF-25F.
• VF-25F super.

Thanks in advance,

Graham

[Seto Kaiba]

Does anyone have thrust-to-weight ratio figures handy they could post for:

• VF-31J
• VF-31J Super
• VF-25F.
• VF-25F super.

Thanks in advance,

Graham

The LRIP/early block VF-25 without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 39.098.

All of the following are computed without the mass of the ordinance container, per the official stats (because that's how their mass was provided):

The LRIP/early block VF-31A without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 40.664.

The Xaos Customized VF-31C without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 44.812.

The Xaos Customized VF-31F without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 44.822.

The Xaos Customized VF-31J without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 44.854.

The Xaos Customized VF-31S without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 44.765.

With their respective Super Packs at a standard operating mass (which is, again, how their masses were provided):

The LRIP/early block VF-25 with the SPS-25S/MF25 Super Pack has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 17.288.

The LRIP/early block VF-25 with the APS-25A/MF25 Armored Pack has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 12.119.

The Xaos Customized VF-31J with its Hiotori/Bharat Super Pack has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 15.950.

It is, however, worth noting that the thrust figures given in Macross Chronicle are bizarrely the same for the VF-25's Super and Armored Pack, and none of them line up to the acceleration forces. The variance is only about 3.8% for the VF-31J Super Siegried, but it expands out to a whopping 27.8% for the VF-25 Super Messiah and 10.7% for the VF-25 Armored Messiah. (The amount the instantaneous thrust is overstated vs. the acceleration g-load the fighter produces.)

[Nazareno2012]

I'm guessing the reason why Windermere refuses to adopt the Ex-Gear is because their wing-glide suits would become a lost art. According to the Newtype article warriors on Windermere 40 years prior used to raid castles with these suits and flying beasts which I guess are these birds.

But it is at the expense of protection for the pilot. Compare the Windermere pilot being caught in the exploding SV-262 in Episode 6 to Hayate being caught in his exploding VF-31J in Episode 13. While Hayate's jetpack got damaged, his EX-Gear was able to protect him from the explosion of his VF-31J, while only suffering minor injuries.

[Graham]

The LRIP/early block VF-25 without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 39.098.

All of the following are computed without the mass of the ordinance container, per the official stats (because that's how their mass was provided):

The LRIP/early block VF-31A without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 40.664.

The Xaos Customized VF-31C without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 44.812.

The Xaos Customized VF-31F without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 44.822.

The Xaos Customized VF-31J without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 44.854.

The Xaos Customized VF-31S without FAST packs has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 44.765.

With their respective Super Packs at a standard operating mass (which is, again, how their masses were provided):

The LRIP/early block VF-25 with the SPS-25S/MF25 Super Pack has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 17.288.

The LRIP/early block VF-25 with the APS-25A/MF25 Armored Pack has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 12.119.

The Xaos Customized VF-31J with its Hiotori/Bharat Super Pack has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 15.950.

It is, however, worth noting that the thrust figures given in Macross Chronicle are bizarrely the same for the VF-25's Super and Armored Pack, and none of them line up to the acceleration forces. The variance is only about 3.8% for the VF-31J Super Siegried, but it expands out to a whopping 27.8% for the VF-25 Super Messiah and 10.7% for the VF-25 Armored Messiah. (The amount the instantaneous thrust is overstated vs. the acceleration g-load the fighter produces.)

Thanks, but no thrust to weight ratios for the VF-31 FAST Packs yet? Nobody bought or posted scans from the Bandai Super pack model kit manuals yet?

[Seto Kaiba]

Thanks, but no thrust to weight ratios for the VF-31 FAST Packs yet? Nobody bought or posted scans from the Bandai Super pack model kit manuals yet?

*blink* No, I covered it... it's the third line in the FAST packs part of the posts you just quoted. The pack doesn't, AFAIK, have an official designation (yet) so I listed it under the name "Hiotori/Bharat Super Pack" because the FAST pack in question is described as being the Super Pack and was built by those two companies. It's probably SPS-31-something.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[ManhattanProject972]

I dunno if I should put a spoiler tag or not but if

the UN Spacy or Xaos has in their possession some sort of DNA sample of a Protoculture as powerful as Mikumo couldn't they clone more?

And would that mean humanity is just that much closer to becoming like the Protoculture by harnessing Mikumo's power and utilizing whatever data was learned through the events of Delta and those PC structures that suddenly appeared

If so, the future is becoming a gradually more dangerous place to be, with mass mind control or manipulation, like what Berger mentioned, a possibility.

Edited December 10, 2016 by ManhattanProject972

[Seto Kaiba]

So... did anyone else notice something a little odd with the VF-1EX Valkyrie specs in the liner notes for Macross Delta Vol.5?

The majority of the specs look familiar enough, and the maximum airspeed at 10km is familiar enough and makes it look like the VF-1EX is probably a detuned and modified VF-1X or VF-1X+, but the engine is straight out of crazy town.  

The text of the booklet describes it as a "FF-2001 Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine" and gives it a per-engine thrust of 147,000kgf (1,441.58kN).  That's gotta be an extra zero there, since 14,700kgf per engine would be consistent with the ~Mach 2.89 performance at 10km.  As written, it'd make the VF-1 almost as zippy as the YF-27-5!

[Bariaburu Faita]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So... did anyone else notice something a little odd with the VF-1EX Valkyrie specs in the liner notes for Macross Delta Vol.5?

The majority of the specs look familiar enough, and the maximum airspeed at 10km is familiar enough and makes it look like the VF-1EX is probably a detuned and modified VF-1X or VF-1X+, but the engine is straight out of crazy town.  

The text of the booklet describes it as a "FF-2001 Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine" and gives it a per-engine thrust of 147,000kgf (1,441.58kN).  That's gotta be an extra zero there, since 14,700kgf per engine would be consistent with the ~Mach 2.89 performance at 10km.  As written, it'd make the VF-1 almost as zippy as the YF-27-5!

You are right, its is higher than normal thrust for a VF-1 by over a factor of 10. So most likely a editing or printer error with an extra zero like you say.

[Graham]

Can anybody remember in the Macross Delta anime whether we see the Sv-262's  beamgun pod firing in fully auto, or only in semi auto?

 

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, Graham said:

Can anybody remember in the Macross Delta anime whether we see the Sv-262's  beamgun pod firing in fully auto, or only in semi auto?

 

I don't honestly recall any cases of them firing in full auto, but then the Draken III is almost never depicted in Battroid in the series...

[David Hingtgen]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I don't honestly recall any cases of them firing in full auto, but then the Draken III is almost never depicted in Battroid in the series...

Just like the VF-31 never fights in battroid either.  Perfectly matched, those two are...  

[seti88]

Probably mentioned somewhere before, but found the name of the SV-154 SVARD in the latest macross designers note book...

 

Not to mention some vampire and 22 schemes...

 

[Mommar]

I didn't even know this existed.  I ordered the last copy at CDJapan after I saw these.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, seti88 said:

Probably mentioned somewhere before, but found the name of the SV-154 SVARD in the latest macross designers note book...

Looks like it's all larger reprints of previously-released art from the series artbooks, liner notes, and the last Tenjin artbook.

Not unwelcome, but still... would it kill them to give us some actual specs for the Svard?  Or maybe some workable lineart?

 

10 hours ago, seti88 said:

Not to mention some vampire and 22 schemes...

That's not the VF-14 Vampire, that's the VF-X-10 design from Kawamori's 1985 non-Macross design series Advanced Valkyrie.

The story of the Advanced Valkyrie series is, for all practical intents and purposes, the first draft for the Macross Plus OVA and the VF-X-10 filled the role in the story eventually occupied by the YF-19.  Bandai bailed on the project before it went past the design phase, and because Kawamori recycles unused designs and concepts until they finally DO get used it was further refined for use in the Air Cavalry Chronicles concept series.  Air Cavalry Chronicles was the earliest incarnation of The Vision of Escaflowne before it became a fantasy series, and the polished VF-X-10 design was a fighter the nation of Fanelia (the homeland of Escaflowne's Van Fanel) used: the III-C Baron Rouge.

When that fell through after Air Cavalry Chronicles changed genres and became a fantasy series, the designs Kawamori'd made in Air Cavalry Chronicles and Advanced Valkyrie got pillaged for use all of the Macross titles that came out in the 90's and early 2000s.  The ZaiBach Empire's fighters became the Varauta Army's VFs in Macross 7 and the VF-14 in Macross M3, the Fanelian III-C Baron Rouge and Asturian A-9B Invader became Macross M3's VF-9 Cutlass and Macross VF-X2's VA-3 Invader, etc.  The aforementioned Sv-154 Svard is also a reused Air Cavalry Chronicles design... it's a very slightly modified Fanelian LV-7 Excalibur.

A lot of the other unused Air Cavalry Chronicles and Advanced Valkyrie designs were adopted into the Macross universe by Macross Chronicle.

[Mommar]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The aforementioned Sv-154 Svard is also a reused Air Cavalry Chronicles design... it's a very slightly modified Fanelian LV-7 Excalibur.

And it looks effing great tweaked as it is now!

[SMS007]

What's everyone betting that we'll see a fully-modeled Sv-154 in Gekijō no Walküre?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, SMS007 said:

What's everyone betting that we'll see a fully-modeled Sv-154 in Gekijō no Walküre?

They'll probably just reuse the same shots that were used in the Macross Delta series... Grammier's file photo, and maybe Keith and Roid's wrecked Svard during the destruction of Carlyle.

[Mommar]

4 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

What's everyone betting that we'll see a fully-modeled Sv-154 in Gekijō no Walküre?

I hope so, I'd love to see all three modes properly animated.  We've seen a glimpse of the Air Cavalry Chronicles version of Battroid but the Delta version of the Fighter mode looks infinitely better.  Battroid should be better too, plus Kawamori is a bit more clever with his transformation mechanisms now.  Though I don't think Bandai could nail a toy for it.

[Sildani]

Kawamoru really admires the Skunk Works’ designs, doesn’t he? The SR-71, F-104 and F-117 were all lovingly remade into VF designs. Be interesting to see which designers have their portraits in Kawamori’s studio. 

[seti88]

On 11/13/2017 at 10:57 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

That's not the VF-14 Vampire, that's the VF-X-10 design from Kawamori's 1985 non-Macross design series Advanced Valkyrie.

I always get the names mixed up. Thanks for pointing it out!

[Sandman]

On 2017-11-13 at 6:57 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Looks like it's all larger reprints of previously-released art from the series artbooks, liner notes, and the last Tenjin artbook.

Not unwelcome, but still... would it kill them to give us some actual specs for the Svard?  Or maybe some workable lineart?

 

That's not the VF-14 Vampire, that's the VF-X-10 design from Kawamori's 1985 non-Macross design series Advanced Valkyrie.

The story of the Advanced Valkyrie series is, for all practical intents and purposes, the first draft for the Macross Plus OVA and the VF-X-10 filled the role in the story eventually occupied by the YF-19.  Bandai bailed on the project before it went past the design phase, and because Kawamori recycles unused designs and concepts until they finally DO get used it was further refined for use in the Air Cavalry Chronicles concept series.  Air Cavalry Chronicles was the earliest incarnation of The Vision of Escaflowne before it became a fantasy series, and the polished VF-X-10 design was a fighter the nation of Fanelia (the homeland of Escaflowne's Van Fanel) used: the III-C Baron Rouge.

When that fell through after Air Cavalry Chronicles changed genres and became a fantasy series, the designs Kawamori'd made in Air Cavalry Chronicles and Advanced Valkyrie got pillaged for use all of the Macross titles that came out in the 90's and early 2000s.  The ZaiBach Empire's fighters became the Varauta Army's VFs in Macross 7 and the VF-14 in Macross M3, the Fanelian III-C Baron Rouge and Asturian A-9B Invader became Macross M3's VF-9 Cutlass and Macross VF-X2's VA-3 Invader, etc.  The aforementioned Sv-154 Svard is also a reused Air Cavalry Chronicles design... it's a very slightly modified Fanelian LV-7 Excalibur.

A lot of the other unused Air Cavalry Chronicles and Advanced Valkyrie designs were adopted into the Macross universe by Macross Chronicle.

The more I hear about it, the more I want to see this Air Cavalry Chronicles revived. Sound like an interesting idea.

[ivorysniper]

On 12/30/2016 at 11:31 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

So... did anyone else notice something a little odd with the VF-1EX Valkyrie specs in the liner notes for Macross Delta Vol.5?

The majority of the specs look familiar enough, and the maximum airspeed at 10km is familiar enough and makes it look like the VF-1EX is probably a detuned and modified VF-1X or VF-1X+, but the engine is straight out of crazy town.  

The text of the booklet describes it as a "FF-2001 Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine" and gives it a per-engine thrust of 147,000kgf (1,441.58kN).  That's gotta be an extra zero there, since 14,700kgf per engine would be consistent with the ~Mach 2.89 performance at 10km.  As written, it'd make the VF-1 almost as zippy as the YF-27-5!

Got confused on this one due to the engine model number as well. Could it be FF-3001 ?. Re-using an old engine model No. for a newer Stage II also seems some sort of misleading. FF-3001 series and 1,400ish kN class would make some sense to me (as long as I deliberately ignore the 'M2.89 @ 10 km' performance specs). Can you please shed some additional light on this?.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 2/17/2018 at 12:35 AM, Sandman said:

The more I hear about it, the more I want to see this Air Cavalry Chronicles revived. Sound like an interesting idea.

My understanding was that the story was basically Escaflowne's... just with a modern world rather than a fantasy one.  The designs sure were neat though.  

(I think, to a certain extent, we've seen a bit of the Air Cavalry Chronicles via Delta... after all, the words "Aerial Cavalry" and "Aerial Knights" are only like one kanji apart.)

 

2 hours ago, ivorysniper said:

Got confused on this one due to the engine model number as well. Could it be FF-3001 ?. Re-using an old engine model No. for a newer Stage II also seems some sort of misleading. FF-3001 series and 1,400ish kN class would make some sense to me (as long as I deliberately ignore the 'M2.89 @ 10 km' performance specs). Can you please shed some additional light on this?.

My conclusion, back when the Macross Delta Blu-rays were still coming out, was that the VF-1EX fell victim to copy-pasting of a template for VF specs when the liner notes were being written and that it was supposed to be a fairly standard VF-1 with a 14,700kgf engine output.

The points I feel argue in favor of that conclusion are:

• The VF-1EX's engine model is given as FF-2001 and their maximum thrust is expressed not in kilonewtons but in kilograms-force.  Macross has been using kilonewtons exclusively for thrust figures since Macross Zero, which suggests they're copying from an older book.
• The engines are described as Stage II, but with no letter... the engines in Macross Delta's new VFs were all described as "Stage IIC" or "Stage IIG".  The FF-2001 was not a Stage II engine.
• Its top speed is given as Mach 2.89 @ 10km, slightly faster than the VF-1A/D/J/S Valkyrie but slightly slower than the VF-1X+ Valkyrie Plus the Special Forces were using in VF-X2.
• The thrust figure given, 147,000kgf, has precisely one zero too many to neatly slot it into the power band that'd produce performance slightly higher than the VF-1 and slightly lower than the VF-1X+.
• The description provided identifies it as a VF-1 that's been retrofitted with cockpit hardware from a current-gen VF.  Nothing is said about retrofitting it to accept engines from a current gen VF, or the inertia store converter that'd be necessary to survive going balls-out in a VF with Stage II engines.  Less than half that engine power was enough to create g-forces that turned Guld into a flight suit full of chunky salsa.
• The last time some nutter tried, in-universe, to retrofit a VF-1 to accept engines which were several times more powerful than what it was designed to accept (but still less than half the output of the VF-1EX liner notes) the result described as "unreasonable modification" and is noted to have been extremely difficult to control even for an experienced special forces ace, liable to turn into a fireball as a result of even a slight output control error, and so unstable that it broke down all the time.

All told, my suspicion is that the VF-1EX is actually equipped with a pair of FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction turbine engines just like on the original VF-1 and consumer market models, and that that engine is rated for 14,700kgf (144.16kN) at 100% power.  (Since this is a late-block model, I'd be inclined to suspect its overboost maximum is 240% power, as shown on the Block 6+ controls.)

[ivorysniper]

19 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

My understanding was that the story was basically Escaflowne's... just with a modern world rather than a fantasy one.  The designs sure were neat though.  

(I think, to a certain extent, we've seen a bit of the Air Cavalry Chronicles via Delta... after all, the words "Aerial Cavalry" and "Aerial Knights" are only like one kanji apart.)

 

My conclusion, back when the Macross Delta Blu-rays were still coming out, was that the VF-1EX fell victim to copy-pasting of a template for VF specs when the liner notes were being written and that it was supposed to be a fairly standard VF-1 with a 14,700kgf engine output.

The points I feel argue in favor of that conclusion are:

• The VF-1EX's engine model is given as FF-2001 and their maximum thrust is expressed not in kilonewtons but in kilograms-force.  Macross has been using kilonewtons exclusively for thrust figures since Macross Zero, which suggests they're copying from an older book.
• The engines are described as Stage II, but with no letter... the engines in Macross Delta's new VFs were all described as "Stage IIC" or "Stage IIG".  The FF-2001 was not a Stage II engine.
• Its top speed is given as Mach 2.89 @ 10km, slightly faster than the VF-1A/D/J/S Valkyrie but slightly slower than the VF-1X+ Valkyrie Plus the Special Forces were using in VF-X2.
• The thrust figure given, 147,000kgf, has precisely one zero too many to neatly slot it into the power band that'd produce performance slightly higher than the VF-1 and slightly lower than the VF-1X+.
• The description provided identifies it as a VF-1 that's been retrofitted with cockpit hardware from a current-gen VF.  Nothing is said about retrofitting it to accept engines from a current gen VF, or the inertia store converter that'd be necessary to survive going balls-out in a VF with Stage II engines.  Less than half that engine power was enough to create g-forces that turned Guld into a flight suit full of chunky salsa.
• The last time some nutter tried, in-universe, to retrofit a VF-1 to accept engines which were several times more powerful than what it was designed to accept (but still less than half the output of the VF-1EX liner notes) the result described as "unreasonable modification" and is noted to have been extremely difficult to control even for an experienced special forces ace, liable to turn into a fireball as a result of even a slight output control error, and so unstable that it broke down all the time.

All told, my suspicion is that the VF-1EX is actually equipped with a pair of FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction turbine engines just like on the original VF-1 and consumer market models, and that that engine is rated for 14,700kgf (144.16kN) at 100% power.  (Since this is a late-block model, I'd be inclined to suspect its overboost maximum is 240% power, as shown on the Block 6+ controls.)

Thanks for the thorough insight, Seto. I'm now consciously deleting the Stage II comments and the extra '0' on the output specs from my mind.

[spacemanoeuvres]

Sorry if this has been discussed already (I searched but didn’t see anything): are there any specs on the sword used by the sv-262?

Just wondering if it’s a simple edge weapon. Is it made of some modern material and/or used in conjunction with the pin point barrier system etc?